User talk:Yug/Archive02

2008 talk page. (Archive1, 2004-2008)

New sections

your post.

= Question?

could you please tell me the translation of this words ? : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Genghiskhantraditional.svg email me please pearonator@gmx.net —Preceding unsigned comment added by FMKhan (talk • contribs) 18:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Source for map?

First of all, thanks for alerting me about the graphics lab! The pictures look great. Now for something I must bother you about:

Recently someone added this map to the article on Tang Dynasty. I noticed on the page for this image that there is not a proper source listed as to where these boundaries were discerned, i.e. a scholarly book or journal, preferably published by a university press. Do you remember exactly which source you used to create these borders in the map? Thanks.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 18:38, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maps

So, what map from my list should I tackle next? Justin Morris ^{(talk, contributions)} 17:46, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

MfD nomination of Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/shortcut

Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/shortcut, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/shortcut and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/shortcut during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. -- Suntag ☼ 15:12, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

han dynasty map

um all you need to do i think is to type "han dynasty" and "tarim basin protectorate" in google and your bound to get reliable resources on its status.ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ (talk) 13:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Articles you created : list

I eventually found the good tool ! there : http://toolserver.org/~escaladix/larticles/larticles.php?user=Nlu&lang=en

Yug 18:36, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Tang Taizong administration : some confirmations/anwsers need ...

Hello Nlu,

I'm re-writing my French Tang Taizong article, to the feature article level, accordingly, I'm reading again and more deeply the Cambridge History of China (CHOC), Sui and Tang volume, Chap. Kao-tsung and Chap. T'ai-tsung .
Sorry if my questions seems basic -I some time just ask for confirmations- but I have some difficulties to draw clearly the shape of Taizong's central administration because of some unclear points in the CHOC, especially the following terms, (since either my English is not perfect or that those terms are use without more precisions) I don't clearly understand :

1. 'chief minister (China)' 宰相 (ex. Xiao Yu, before 627, and in 630 = ‘chief minister’) - the CHOC use this term without saying which minister/departement he is the 'chief', what that ? leading which departement/ministers ?

2. 'Chancellery' (門下省 Menxià shĕng) and 'Chancellors', you seems to place the Chancelors (writing Imperial edict) as being the highest office, higher that Vice-presidents of the Department of State Affairs (leading administration and executive power), is there a reason ?

3. 'Vice-President of the Departement of State Affairs' (ex: Zhangsun Wuji, after 645): so, who is the president ? Taizong, right ?

4. 'Censorate' (御史臺 yushitai) - I know what it is, but it seems (?) "out" of the Three Departments and Six Ministries (fr) set of offices, have you some information on its place ?

5. School of Calligraphie (Shu Xué, create in 628), CHOC p.214, but CHOC's Glossary, p.831 wrote Shu Xue = "數学", then meaning School of Mathematics (!). Can you check on : JTS vol.3 and XTS vol.48 what is the State School create in Chang'an in 628 ?

Waiting for some answer,

Regards, Yug (talk) 15:52, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi... Thanks for writing. Remember that while I do consider myself sort of an expert on the subject (whereas there are many areas that I do not consider myself an expert at all!), I am not a professor and hold no graduate degree in history. (One of my undergraduate majors was history.)

I do not remember much about the Cambridge History of China. However, I will say this; to the extent it appears to imply that Tang had a single chief minister, that is definitely wrong, and that is based on both how Tang Dynasty historians viewed their own governmental structure and also how subsequent Song Dynasty historians viewed it. (See further below.)
Translating the Menxia Sheng as "chancellory" implies incorrectly that only the head of the Menxia Sheng (the Shizhong) is a chancellor. That is not true. I don't know how well you read Chinese, but a fairly good (and not that difficult to understand even if you're not accustomed to reading classical Chinese) discussion of how the system works is in New Book of Tang, vol. 46. If you are better at modern Chinese, Bo Yang's Zhongguoren Shigang (中國人史綱) provides a good discussion in its discussion on Tang Dynasty governmental structure. Bo translates Menxia Sheng into modern Chinese as Jiandu Yuan (the same title for the Republic of China Controll Yuan, which might be imprecise, but that is in turn why I've further rendered "examination bureau" which might be imprecise as well. In any case, my translation of "chancellor" is meant to be a direct translation of Zaixiang (宰相).
I assume, among the titles that they used for Zhangsun that they translated as "Vice-President of the Department of State Affairs" was Shangshu Pushe (尚書僕射). As Bo pointed out, that is a misleading translation because the original head position of Shangshu Sheng (尚書省, which I translate as "executive bureau" and which Bo translated as Guowu Yuan (國務院), the same translation as the State Council of the People's Republic of China), the Shangshu Ling (尚書令), was basically abolished after the start of Emperor Gaozu's reign since Emperor Taizong was the only person to have ever held it, thus rendering the Shangshu Pushe, of whom there were two, to be the head of the Shangshu Sheng. In this case, there is no Shangshu Ling; the office is vacant.
The Yushitai was independent (although persons holding Yushi offices often had other governmental titles as well, thus making them not completely independent). For more details on its structure, see the New Book of Tang, vol. 48 if you can read classical Chinese. To tell the truth, I don't understand it well myself. It does not fall under the Shangshu Sheng, Menxia Sheng, or Zhongshu Sheng.
I am not familiar with the Shuxue. But this is a term that means mathematics in modern Chinese. Taken in isolation in classical Chinese, I'd interpret more as in the context of "multiple arts."

I'm sorry that I do not have more information on these things that you ask. I hope that these are helpful. --Nlu (talk) 18:21, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Map

Hello Yug...

Thank you for editing my map. It is progressive the history of my maps from this, because of your contribute.

However, there are some of problem such as naming of sea of japan, which is called "East Sea", but this is not reflected on editing map and The map depend on only Chinese source.

Except for this, I respect your contribute to my map. Please can you provide good advices and tools to me? especially, The line of troops' moves and style of font. teach me how to make it.

Thanks~ --Historiographer (talk) 17:40, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Map

Hey Yug. I love your new map! I just don't know which specific history article will benefit from it, or where it will be relevant enough to place. Geography of China would be a good start, but perhaps even History of China is another article where it could best be used.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 05:07, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be rewriting the article on the Han Dynasty very soon, so I might need your services in creating a map sooner than you think. Cambridge is always a trustworthy source.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 17:58, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The TIMES Atlas of World History (third edition) ISBN 0-7230-0304-1 is a trsutworthy sourceJulius Ceasarus From Primus (talk) 00:38, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let's look at some already existing maps in the Han Dynasty article:

with source: this map for the Han and the featured Image:Han Civilisation.png use as source: Tan Qixiang, ed., Zhongguo lishi ditu (中国历史地图集), 1982 ;
no source: this other map as well as this map

As for the two maps I just listed here that cite their sources, I think I will keep, but I would request (if possible) to replace those other two maps which do not city any sources. Once I start writing the article, I'll let you know what type of map will be sorely needed. Thanks Yug!--Pericles of Athens^Talk 15:39, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yep : I'm admirative of the work done by Jack Yuan (user:Yu Ninjie). In fact, my aim is both to continue his work, a to create a set of SVG tools and icons for Chinese history maps. Time will say. -- Yug 17:11, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

your tang dynasty map

if you don't mind i added two more reputable sources.Julius Ceasarus From Primus (talk) 00:33, 4 December 2008 (UTC) 'ive noticed the above person posted unsourced links, i have a book myself which supports his links above, ISBN 978-1-84573-323 MAPPING HISTORY WORLD HISTORY it matches exactly , i think all representations of the warring states and zhou are standard. the current maps on the articles are substandard.Historian of the arab people (talk) 17:24, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]