Talk:Atlantis

Is this chart comparing the locations valid for inclusion? Can we stick it in somehow?

http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/atlantisboliviapart4_files/milos990.jpg

My edit got reverted. http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Atlantis&diff=272420546&oldid=272420249 I Googled for that conference, and didn't find any major news sources talking about it. Still, you had a group of people, professional and published archeologist and whatnot, one of which had a documentary I saw about Bolivia being Atlantis(having a documentary made about your work makes you notable by wikipedia I think), who agreed upon this. There are references from the various translated versions of Plato, every indication of anything that could be used to find the exact spot he was talking about. http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/atlantisboliviapart4_files/milos990.jpg

If I contacted them, and they agreed to let their chart be used, would that be valid here or on the Location hypotheses of Atlantis article? When you look at the chart, it seems odd that other locations are listed, and not Bolivia. All the other evidence seems rather convincing as well. Dream Focus 03:22, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Please don't. Any theory that Atlantis is located in Bolivia is a non-starter. Maybe you can stick it in Location hypotheses of Atlantis--but it's too far out there for the main article. Please realize that there are many "discoveries" of Atlantis every year, and none of them ever pan out. That's because people are looking for the wrong thing--Plato's Atlantis is a fiction. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:37, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

The evidence looks rather convincing to me. And they once said another Greek story was false, there no city of Troy, everyone dismissing it as nonsense, until someone went there and found it. Everyone should keep an open mind, but also look over notable facts you can confirm or disprove. Dream Focus 17:55, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Because of the nature of the subject, we are using fringier sources than we normally would, but this one deserves no more then a mention, certainly not this chart. No way is Jim Allen a reliable source, or this location notable enough. dougweller (talk) 06:41, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

This is redaculis. The neutrality of the article is called into questian. It can't just act like one side of the story is true. There is varius lucrative evidence that is worthwhile to study that shows Atlantis is real place. Many expeditions are still abound. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.125.23.217 (talk) 19:18, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, there we go, in the 19th century the argument wasn't whether there was a real city of Troy, but where it was located. Schliemann thought he knew where it was but was persuaded by others to dig in a different spot, where he may have found it (we still lack the archaeological evidence to be sure that Homer was describing a real war). So that's a bad example. And it doesn't matter if you find it convincing and someone else doesn't, what we need are reliable sources. Jim Allen isn't one. dougweller (talk) 18:45, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

But isn't Plato? You can't just say something doesn't exists, because it hasn't been found yet. There is no reason to doubt this ancient writer, who wrote specific measurements of things, and gave far more detail to it than he would if it was just a story meant to entertain or teach a moral lesson to people. I believe Plato is notable, and the archeological evidence, the quarried stones, and the satellite images of that area, as well as the ancient measurements, and descriptions, and the gold copper alloy he mentions, among other things, do make Atlantis seem quite real, and Bolivia the most likely place for it to be at. Dream Focus 19:01, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter what we think; what matters is what reliable sources think. Jim Allen isn't one; scholars like Julia Annas, Pierre Vidal-Naquet, and John Luce are. These are classicists, the kinds of people we turn to when we need expert opinions on ancient Greek philosophy, history, and literature. Annas and Vidal-Naquet think that Plato's Atlantis is pure fiction, whereas John Luce thinks that Plato's Atlantis might depend on stories of the Thera eruption. But I don't think you'll find any classicist thinks that Plato was writing about Bolivia... --Akhilleus (talk) 19:06, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Those with college degrees in various sciences, and those who have gone and done actual scans and digs in an area, and done some real research, are not valid at all, however a few people with no scientific knowledge whatsoever are, because after studied the old writing, they decided it was nonsense. No. I prefer those who look at things by the scientific method, than those who just read some old text and debated it amongst themselves. I'm sure there are plenty of classicists who look at the information, and believe otherwise, although I'm not sure how many have looked up any recent information, and published their opinions on it. Dream Focus 19:52, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

By all means, use whatever method you prefer to come to your personal beliefs regarding Atlantis. But Wikipedia policy is clear regarding the importance of reliable sources. Find some other forum to argue your point, but when in WP, then we follow WP policy. Phiwum (talk) 22:14, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I also think it is impossible to understand Plato's writing simply by reading it and going out and digging (although I don't think anyone has claimed to have found Atlantis by digging). As for scans, the number of unscientific uses of scanned material I've seen.... dougweller (talk) 22:18, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Contradiction

The article quotes "It is only in modern times that people have taken the Atlantis story seriously; no one did so in antiquity" but then goes on to say "Some ancient writers viewed Atlantis as fiction while others believed it was real". Even though the first is a quote, and we should allow some leeway for different sources to express different opinions, there's no getting around the fact that these statements are completely incompatible. 86.161.42.191 (talk) 01:15, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I think it is rather a question of relativity than that of a contradiction. Alan Cameron talks in general terms while Nesselrath goes more specific. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 11:34, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm ... I don't see it myself. I cannot see how both those statements can be true. 86.138.42.161 (talk) 15:34, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps we need an opposing quote next to the Alan Cameron quote? "According to Alan Cameron, "...blahblahblah..."; however, [insert authority here] wrote that "...blahblahblah..."?"165.91.80.153 (talk) 21:06, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Google are wrong editor

Please, this is not a forum for discussing Google. If you have good references that discuss the issue, bring them in or add them, but this is not a discussion page for general discussion. Thanks. There's a note at the top of this page saying the same thing. (You should be looking at your talk page but I'm not sure you read it).

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs) 19:12, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Freemasonry

The article should maybe mention the mythological theory about Atlantis being a Masonic civilization. The idea of the United States of America being a kind of New Atlantis is apparently based on the idea that both the United States and Atlantis had a supposedly Masonic background. ADM (talk) 10:16, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Really so if Atlantis was a Free Mason society, and Plato wrote about Atlantis, and the Freemasons began in the 18th century, then Plato could see the future. I am going to add that to the Plato article. He must have been a reptilian also.--68.184.246.3 (talk) 02:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Atlantis - Egyptian viewpiont

"Critias claims that his accounts of ancient Athens and Atlantis stem from a visit to Egypt by the legendary Athenian lawgiver Solon in the 6th century BC. In Egypt, Solon met a priest of Sais, who translated the history of ancient Athens and Atlantis, recorded on papyri in Egyptian hieroglyphs, into Greek."

Has any Egyptian manuscript/inscription been found that corroborates the Greek version of the story of Atlantis? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.84.37.18 (talk) 15:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Wrong place to discuss this really unless we are working on the article, but the answer is no, and the Egyptians had really very little interest in the history of anyplace other than Egypt. Dougweller (talk) 17:12, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Atlantis/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. The article has a lot of good qualities, but there are some issues that I believe prevent it from meeting the criteria.

• Lead section: "the failed Athenian invasion of Sicily in 415–413 BC" – this is not mentioned in the text
• "Plato's account":
  • The first quote is out of place; the background needs to be set up first - who is speaking etc.
  • "John V. Luce assumes..." – where? Needs ref
• "Reception"
  • "Ancient"
    • There are a couple of one-sentence paragraphs
    • "...no primary ancient account..." – needs ref
    • "Marcellus remains unidentified." – needs ref
  • "In Nazi mysticism" – does this really need a separate section?
• "In or near the Mediterranean Sea" – this section needs references to the listed locations
  • Google Earth story – here the reference is to a blog; there should be reliable sources for this
• "Other locations" – same thing as "In or near the Mediterranean Sea"
• "Notes" - the notes generally have poor formatting; many have naked URLs, in others information such as site and author is missing
• General:
  • There's a mix of spaced and unspaced dashes. Whatever kind of dashes you chose to use, it needs to be uniform.
  • Too much of the content is referenced directly to the ancient sources, which can be considered original research. Interpretation of ancient sources should be backed up by modern scholarship, of which there is plenty available.

I will wait for seven days, if anyone has started a thorough revision of the article by then, I will extend the waiting period, so the article can remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it will be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far. Lampman (talk) 17:08, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Since no significant improvements have been made to the article over the last week, I will now delist it. Lampman (talk) 17:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Atlantis Etymology

I deleted the explanation of the name of Atlantis which was unreferenced. I haven’t found anywhere that Atlantis meant the daughter of Atlas. It doesn't make sense. Plato states that the first born was named Atlantas/Atlas and the Island was called after him Atlantis (actually in the Greek text Atlantis is mentioned only once, the first time and then the Island is mostly called ATLANTIDI --- Ατλαντιδι νησω. ) Ατλαντ-ιδι =Atlas + Land. --Xellas (talk) 16:51, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think you could have looked very hard. It's easy to find via Google Books or Scholar, and I happen to have a couple of the books anyway. I've added references and also references for Hellanicus's earlier work about Atlantis, I really should have done this a long time ago - it's amazing no one else noticed the article didn't mention him. Dougweller (talk) 19:46, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

D, I don't think that Atlantis that Hellanicus's talking about is the one from Plato. I happened to have read Plato's work in his Ancient version (I am not that great but I can read most of it) and I find that Plato uses different names for this island. when he intruduces the island he calls it; ATLANTIS (ONLY once). then, he uses different names like Atlantidi or Atlanta. So if you want to be correct you have to call it ATLANTIDI. anyway, Critias explains that the names are hellenised so the names of Atlantis are all Greek meaning. Atlantis MUST have had a different name in its language (Unfortunatelly we don't know that...)I do speak Ancient and Modern greek so there is no such a thing as the daughter of Atlas anywhere.

the only thing we can do is try to get the meaning of the word Atlantidi. I have looked into such words and I have found mostly certain pelsgian words such as atdei or atde which stunds for father (AT) and dei (LAND) and atlantidi has both so in other words we have Father - LANT - LAND. I am kind of speculating od course but I am sure that atlantis does not mean the daughter of Atlas. think about it; He is the son of Poseidon and he is the firstborn child. He can't be named after his daughter?! Anyway I will leave it like that and I will look more into it....--Xellas (talk) 22:33, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

External links

I have a cool link with a blog with all Atlantis sites;

• ATLANTIS LINK LIBRARY

Should I include within? It doesn't represent a particular theory....--Xellas (talk) 17:26, 24 August 2009 (UTC)