Talk:Star Trek Into Darkness

Khan

http://index.hu/kultur/cinematrix/2013/03/26/star_trek_exkluziv/ – The author of this article states that she was shown the first quarter of the film at a Berlin press conference, and that the antagonist is Khan indeed. – 146.110.50.34 (talk) 07:41, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not inclined to believe. The information provided by others who have seen the first section of the film does not correlate with this, and I'm not sure of the notability of that particular source. For now we should stick with the official information. drewmunn talk 07:54, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

(Index.hu − 146.110.50.34 (talk) 20:26, 27 March 2013 (UTC))

It is only a month away now until it's being released. And we'll know then who he really is. Not that it matters, but I don't believe it is after other stuff being released about him. And it seems like the only reason for it to be him would be to make another reference at the classic series. We'll know in a month who he truly is though once the film is released worldwide or even when reporters go and see the premiere of the film (if there is going to be one) and info will be released then. Charlr6 (talk) 14:31, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

The movie premiered in Australia. It is Khan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.31.155.94 (talk) 21:05, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

As with everything in this world, we'd need a reliable citation please. I'm bowing out here so I don't spoil the movie for myself, but you can't add it in without a source that passes our notability guidelines. drewmunn talk 06:06, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

It's filmed fiction, not *real*. Goodness: is this good enough-- http://furiousfanboys.com/2013/04/star-trek-into-darkness-premiered-in-sydney-the-truth-is-here-spoilers/ 130.111.163.179 (talk) 12:58, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Based on "The Enemy Within" episode?

Extended content

For those editors who will be chomping at the bit to write the upcoming fuller plot section in the article, well, it seems Simon Pegg has let loose a major clue (accurate or diversionary?) that seems to suggest the Harrison character could be the result of a transporter split up with good and evil versions, thus supplying the necessary drama, just like happened to Kirk in the original series episode The Enemy Within: It's been fun seeing people trying to figure out who he is playing and all the time it just being a very simple answer. John Harrison is indicative of a thing going on in society today, which is the enemy within," says Pegg. "Not . . . a multihorned alien or another country or whatever. It's the idea that the threat can be one of us and can come from inside. Benedict's character is interesting and complex because he is, at once, an enemy and an ally, and is always manipulating the situation, that he's in, even to the point of manipulating Kirk and us. He is brilliantly Mahiavellian. — Star Trek Collector's Edition: Into Darkness, page 6, AVI Specials, magazine format, March 2013 See http://trekmovie.com/2013/03/26/simon-pegg-on-different-scotty-and-john-harrison-speculation-in-star-trek-into-darkness/ Seems like a pretty clear clue. Maybe he thought or was assured the interview would be published after the movie's release. I think I'm going to call it. That's the plot of the movie. 5Q5 (talk) 13:56, 1 April 2013 (UTC) Everyhing you've said is completely OR and speculation. We can't put things in that you've 'called'. drewmunn talk 14:03, 1 April 2013 (UTC) (ec) Or you're reading too much into it. "Enemy within" is a common phrase and it doesn't have to be literally referring to the episode. In fact, the "enemy within" motiff has been hinted at through marketing. DonQuixote (talk) 14:08, 1 April 2013 (UTC) Yeah. It's pure speculation. MisterShiney ✉ 16:22, 1 April 2013 (UTC) Just saying, for those who will be writing the fuller plot, besides having Kahn and Mitchell preloaded in your mental notes, add transporter mishap. Curiously, The Enemy Within was the fifth episode in the original series and 2009/2010/2011/2012/2013 = 5 years. 5Q5 (talk) 14:08, 2 April 2013 (UTC) I think you're reading way too far into this. When someone gets around to writing up the plot, they'll be doing it without predjudice; we can only document information given directly to us, not link possible themes or clues to reach our own conclusions. drewmunn talk 14:51, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

New Poster 2

I know this is probably being really picky, but should the alt for the new poster name the ship as the Enterprise? There is nowhere that I can find explicitly stating it to be. It's general assumption, but do we have anything solid enough to physically state that? drewmunn talk 18:56, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I'd leave it off. Better to stick with what's explicit. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 19:42, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I've made that change then. If there's any backlash, we can deal with it then. drewmunn talk 21:45, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Good Lord... Why not go the next step and say that it's only a model, or only an artist's rendering of a make-believe ship? What other ship could it possibly be, given what is shown in the previews? This is taking Wikipedia standards to a ridiculous level, like visiting the page on Air and saying that it needs references... DeeJaye6 (talk) 13:12, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Lack of Colon Revisited

May I ask why people have so resisted making the title "Star Trek: Into Darkness"? It matches the previous 10 movies' titles in Wikipedia, and none of those movie's posters or official sites had a colon. They simply had the same thing this movie has: a small "Star Trek" above the subtitle, "The Motion Picture," "First Contact," "Insurrection" or whatever. (The previous movie being the exception, of course.)

Putting the colon in makes the title more accurate; this is the eleventh movie in the franchise to have a subtitle, and the first of those whose Wiki page was made so inaccurately. Who in their right mind thinks that the "Star Trek" in this title is a complex verb, as though one were "star trekking" into darkness? And if they actually believed that, why wasn't "The Voyage Home" done the same way?

In closing, there is plenty of precedent for putting the colon in place and making this title more accurate.

Recommend changing the page title (and related pages speaking of the movie) to "Star Trek: Into Darkness" for the sake of accuracy and consistency.

DeeJaye6 (talk) 13:09, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

The reason we don't include a colon is because the film-makers are on record explicitly stating that the title doesn't have a colon.[1] Also, I don't believe any reliable sources use a colon. --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:17, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

DeeJaye6, there was a very large discussion about the article title a few months ago, to the point that it warranted an XKCD comic. Both the colon and a lowercase "i" were discussed, but ultimately, since pretty much all other sources write the title this way, we are doing the same. My understanding is that other examples have mixed cases (e.g., Star Trek Generations vs. Star Trek: Generations), but so far, this one is pretty consistent in just this current title being used most of everywhere. Wikipedia is not necessarily a "leader" in these cases; it follows what others do and say. A different title from everyone else would be too contrarian. Erik (talk | contribs) 14:00, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Concur with my two colleagues. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:13, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree. This issue has been discussed to death and doesn't need to be revisited. SonOfThornhill (talk) 13:46, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. No other Star Trek movie had a colon in the title, and yet everyone accepts that one belongs (granted, not for the most recent one that lacked a subtitle entirely). The editing going on in this one ignores common sense in favor of nitpicking. Unfortunately, the few nitpickers are more vocal than those who prefer common sense, so I will just leave it at that and hope that: you folks see common sense; others who see common sense speak up; and that no one takes this as a reason to change the other titles to match this mistake. --DeeJaye6 (talk) 06:51, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

What is the source of the plot??

The film has not been released as of yet, which prevents the editorship to work collaboratively on the plot summary. Even more important than that, its a enermous copyvio. It's gone until opening day.. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 22:00, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

How is it a copyvio? Doesn't it have to have been copied from somewhere else first? Whilst I do agree that if it has not been released officially then it prevents other editors from colaberating, but where does it say we don't have plot summaries till opening day? MisterShiney ✉ 00:35, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

The film had its Australia premiere the other day [2] so I don't know if that's enough; I do know that spoilers are permitted so the question would seem to be is the Australia premiere enough to post the plot. 331dot (talk) 00:38, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Also, I cited the premiere in the article as well. The film premiered on April 23 according to this citation, so I think that the addition of the plot summary is necessary at the moment. We had a similar case about this at Talk:The Avengers (2012 film) before the film's US release, as well as Skyfall. Per WP:FILMPLOT, as a plot summary, the film itself is a source after all. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:14, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Full-protected for three days while this is sorted out. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 14:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Plot summaries are based upon the consensus version of the plot points; how is that at all possible when the film hasn't seen general release? Granted, it might indeed be the plot (in which case, some film reviewer in Australia has forever fucked themselves out of future press tickets by posting plot points - a basic prohibition in film reviewing), but then again, it could be some elaborate hoax by some fans (or anti-fans). In either case, we cannot post the plot until general release, as it interferes with the film studio's right to make money. Why see the film when they can just read the plot here? It opens WP to some rather unpleasant legal consequences that we should avoid.

I feel pretty strongly about this, and think that we might have to initiate an RfC or bring in some admins on this. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 14:04, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

"we cannot post the plot until general release, as it interferes with the film studio's right to make money." That's irrelevant. The only thing which could make this copyvio is if it has been posted elsewhere.

What you really should be concerned about is whether there are reliable sources (including the film itself per WP:WAF, which apparently it has been released in Australia) which confirm the basic plot points. If that is the case, then there is absolutely no reason we should not cover the plot per WP:SPOILERS. --Izno (talk) 15:52, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not convinced of the "irrelevant" nature of screwing a filmmaker out of their right to profit from their work, but I'll set that aside for a moment. Additionally, I'm going to dismiss any argument abut spoilers, as that's a red herring. The main point is - and its odd that you would miss it - is that the plot summary is a community-based, agreed-upon version of transpired events in the film. We do not have that here. An exceedingly small group of people saw the film in Australia, and as far as I can tell, there is no RS review that details the plot in nearly as much detail as was edited into the article. Which, of course, there wouldn't be, as per the caveats I noted in the earlier post. So, this isn't about reliable sources either. If the editorship doesn't have the opportunity to see the film, they cannot very well contribute to the plot summary, can they? And on a more basic level, what the hell is the rush? I am growing ever more impatient with editors that treat Wikipedia like some forum site where speed is of the essence. IT IS NOT IMPORTANT TO BE FAST IN WIKIPEDIA. Slow the hell down and wait for general release. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:45, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

"The main point is - and its odd that you would miss it - is that the plot summary is a community-based, agreed-upon version of transpired events in the film." Just as wrong and just as irrelevant. A plot summary is no different from any other part of an article in that it must be sourced (usually to the film but it could be sourced to another item). That's the only criterion to write about it. It is again irrelevant whether the majority of the "editorship" has seen it. As for the rush, you're the only person who perceives it that way. Wikipedia moves at the speed it moves, whether that's slow or fast, and the only time we really need to control that speed is in the case of BLPs, which given we're talking about a plot summary—inherently fiction—does not apply here. Really, you would have a good argument if you could show that the plot as posted is wrong, but you have been unable to and seem undesiring of doing so.

"I'm not convinced of the "irrelevant" nature of screwing a filmmaker out of their right to profit from their work, but I'll set that aside for a moment." I am. Wikipedia doesn't care in any regard for the actual topic or topic"maker" of the article (unless WP:BLP comes into play; again, irrelevant here). This is true whether we're talking about a company who has negative criticism or a book that was released yesterday or a news event that happened today. What we care about is verifiable, reliably sourced, appropriately weighted, encyclopedic, free content. That's it. Now, you might also argue, based on what I just said, that the plot as posted fails one or multiple of those items. You haven't, and apparently do not want to. Would you like to do so, or would you like to continue arguing from incorrect notions of what Wikipedia should care about? --Izno (talk) 17:33, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I've notified WT:FILM about this matter. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:51, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Oh, you did, did you? :) - Jack Sebastian (talk) 18:59, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Yep.We may need more uninvolved editors to get involved and comment on the situation. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:25, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Plot summaries in film articles are implicitly cited barring unusual circumstances (like the film being lost). We can easily add citation tags that state the film title, the director, the studio, etc. All that is readily available in the infobox, though, so we are not compelled to do that. To warrant referencing the film as a primary source, it must be accessible to the public in some form, such as being available in theaters or on home media. I think that a limited screening is not an event that opens the matter to verifiability, which means that "people reading and editing the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source". This being the case, it is not appropriate to rely on a firsthand account when it cannot be checked by others. However, if early reviews write about the plot in more detail than what the official synopsis says, we can reference these for the plot summary. When the film is available to the public, we do not need to rely on such reviews and can shape the summary accordingly. Erik (talk | contribs) 20:55, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

"To warrant referencing the film as a primary source, it must be accessible to the public in some form, such as being available in theaters or on home media." So what do you say about a film that was in theaters, but no longer is and has yet to be released in any home media? Is that film's plot no longer verifiable and so that plot summary should be removed? 99.192.64.5 (talk) 21:29, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

It "was in theaters". Therefore it was verifiable from the time it was in theaters. This was in a couple theaters seen by a few hundred at most. Unless they are all on WP editing, it can't be verified until the general release. Anyone could quite easily lie and make up a plot; given the small audience, we have no way of knowing if it is correct until the wide release. 331dot (talk) 21:36, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

STID was also "in theaters. Two theaters for two showings so far, and more to come. The people who saw it can verify the plot, just like for any other film that was in theaters. "We have no way of knowing if it is correct until the wide release." So does that mean that a film that has only been given a limited release in a hundred cities is not verifiable? But if 100 cities is enough and 2 is not, what is the magic number that is good enough? 99.192.64.5 (talk) 21:43, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

It was not "in theaters", it was in two theaters and not for its general release. Unless a large number of those few hundred who saw it come here to work on the plot summary, it can't be verified. TV shows are seen by anywhere from several hundred thousand to millions. 331dot (talk) 21:46, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Family Viewing is a film that was released in 1987. As of July 2012, the plot summary on the Wikipedia page for the film was just a single short paragraph. In August 2012 I saw the film and then wrote a long plot summary for the Wikipedia page. There have never - before or since - been a large number of people who came to that page to work on the summary. It was only me. Now, does that mean that my plot summary is invalid? I would think not. The fact that I was the only person in the history of Wikipedia to take enough of an interest in that film to write a detailed plot summary does not make it wrong or unverifiable. It only takes one person who has seen the film to write an accurate summary. 99.192.64.5 (talk) 22:01, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Hah, that's actually a good question. I'm not sure if I have a good answer for that, but I think such a scenario is exceedingly rare. First of all, it would necessitate a dispute over details in the plot summary during that time period. The more mainstream a film is, the more likely there would be attention to its article and its plot summary. However, this is offset by the nature of a mainstream film having a very narrow time period between the end of the film's theatrical run and its availability on home media. (There's also video on demand to consider...) Basically, the likelihood of such a scenario is negligible, and we could probably refer to film reviews for clarification about certain details since a lot of them recap the story. If that fails, we could just keep the plot summary from before the end of a run until it becomes available in other media. At worst, we could just use such reviews to put together a new summary (however incomplete) during that time period of not being available to the public. Erik (talk | contribs) 21:48, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Ok, but what about a film that is not "mainstream"? Those films have articles with plot summaries, too, and so the issue could be more real for them. In addition, you say, "First of all, it would necessitate a dispute over details in the plot summary during that time period." Doesn't that mean that the plot summary posted here for STID is not a problem unless some other editor comes along and says "I also saw the film and that summary is wrong"? In the absence of an dispute over the Australian summary's content, it would seem it should stand. 99.192.64.5 (talk) 21:54, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

In my experience, the threshold for verifiability is when a film is available to the general public. This means that screenings like those at festivals do not meet that threshold. A film in limited release meets that threshold because while it is not everywhere, it is at least available to the public. A person can go "anytime" to see the film and confirm the summary, much like a person can go to the Library of Congress "anytime" or buy an expensive book "anytime" to verify a citation. With a special screening, we can't do that. The time period I mentioned before is miniscule and not comparable to the screening-to-theatrical-run period you mention because circulation has been experienced. These are not hard-and-fast rules, of course; common sense should prevail. Plot summaries are supposed to exist in service of the real-world context provided in a Wikipedia article, so I do not think providing a full one upfront, before the film is available to the public, is of pressing importance. Erik (talk | contribs) 22:06, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand your distinction between a festival / premiere showing and one that is open to the "public". I have attended lots of films at film festivals. You just show up and buy a ticket. Anyone is allowed to come. And often at festivals a film has more than one showing. Surely that counts as being available to the public. I have also attended a couple of premieres where also it was simply a matter of buying a ticket before they sold out. The shows were just as open to the public as any film showing is.

"A film in limited release meets that threshold because while it is not everywhere, it is at least available to the public. A person can go "anytime" to see the film and confirm the summary" I'm not trying to be a prick about this (although it might sound like it), but that's not true. If the film is in limited release and the shows are only at 7pm and 9pm, then there will be a lot of times that the film is not accessible to anyone. You have to wait for the next showing if you want to check the film to see if the Wikipedia summary is accurate. The same is true right now for STID. You just have to wait for the next showing of the film, and then you can go check. It's playing every couple of days right now, if you are in the right city. 99.192.64.5 (talk) 22:18, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, I was under the impression that festival screenings were not often repeated (within that festival's schedule, I mean). I've really only focused on when a film premieres at a film festival and cannot recall anything about repeated screenings other than a screening exclusive to the press and a screening open to the public. Would it depend on the festival, perhaps? What is the current screening status for this film? I see that it premiered in Australia but am not clear what you mean about it screening every couple of days. Is it a festival setup or just sneak previews? In any case, while you make a good point, I do agree with Jack above when he says that it is not important to be fast on Wikipedia. This topic has a place here forever, and the film by its blockbuster nature will be available forever. So I think we can afford to wait. Still, I think you make an interesting point about what the threshold should be, and maybe we can hammer out something specific at WT:FILM or deal with it on a case-by-case basis. Erik (talk | contribs) 22:38, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

"I was under the impression that festival screenings were not often repeated." I guess that depends on the film and the festival. Ones I have been to have had repeat showings for films I have been interested in seeing.

"What is the current screening status for this film? I see that it premiered in Australia but am not clear what you mean about it screening every couple of days." It had its Australian premiere last Tuesday. Then it had its Moscow premiere on Thursday. There are a few other similar premiere events around the world over the next couple of weeks before it opens wide.

"I do agree with Jack above when he says that it is not important to be fast on Wikipedia." I agree 100%, and have argued the same thing on other talk pages (like when people go crazy about real time reporting of awards show results). It does not really matter to to me when the plot summary for this film is posted. But the general issue of how much input is needed or how "available" a film has to be to allow for a plot summary does matter to me, especially since I do care about articles for more obscure and less widely available films (see my comments about Family Viewing above).

"maybe we can hammer out something specific at WT:FILM or deal with it on a case-by-case basis." I agree again. Actually, I first replied to this topic over there hoping to keep my part of the discussion on WT:FILM, but that didn't happen :-) 99.192.64.5 (talk) 23:04, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree with some above that commercial interests aren't an issue here, but simple verifiability is. I would suggest reverting the plot summary to an instance before the addition of the full plot and wait until a general release of the film so that it can be confirmed. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 15:16, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree, wait a bit until there are multiple high quality sources to support a detailed plot in the article. Movies can be changed after a world premiere. Paranormal Activity had its ending changed after a festival premiere and before general distribution. Credits can change. I read the purported plot in the history log and, oh my god, some of it jumps the shark for me: Chekov named Chief Engineer, Spock Prime says Khan is the greatest enemy the Enterprise has ever known (ever hear of the Borg, Spock?). It's no wonder why people in Egypt, Taiwan, Peru, and elsewhere can see it in theaters before home fans in the U.S. The studio wants to make as much money as possible before the bad reviews start coming in. I heard a rumor Lex Luthor makes a cameo (kidding). If the plot in the history log looks accurate, then it looks like a good starting point. 5Q5 (talk) 11:48, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

RELEASE DATES

Please restore information about release dates other than those for the United States. Particularly relevant since many of these dates PRECEDE the date for the USA

thankyou Japanscot (talk) 17:41, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Hello. I think we should move these to the release section. In the lead, we should include the first and country of origin releases only per WP:FILMRELEASE. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:24, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I've tried updating the release dates to add the UK date of the 9th. I can't, however, get the UK text to line up as it's appearing on the line above in the information panel!" Can someone quickly fix my error? Sorry about that, it was best intentions.Danno81 (talk) 08:53, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

OK, as per WP:FILMRELEASE I've removed the date from the info panel.

I do think the date of the 9th is important, however, as it is the first general release date and should be reflected somewhere http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1408101/releaseinfo Danno81 (talk) 09:00, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

It should be included as an "important" release date, as it is the first general release. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:12, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

But we should only list the earliest release date (whether its a world premiere) and country of origin in lead per WP:FILMRELEASE. Therefore the UK releases should be moved to an appropriate release section. Thoughts? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 11:47, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm conflicted. It's a fairly wide release on the 9th (looks like Australia and NZ get it this day too), so feel this should be noted in the infobox. If it was after the US release, then it wouldn't be an issue - but that it is having a general release on 9th outside the country of home production must be a notable enough date for the infobox. --Rob Sinden (talk) 11:52, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, perhaps I should explain the definition of it: "The film infobox is too small to reproduce the long lists of release dates provided by sources such as the Internet Movie Database. Release dates should therefore be restricted to the film's earliest release, whether it was at a film festival or a public release, and the release date(s) in the country or countries that produced the film, excluding sneak previews or screenings." Also, "If other release dates are found to be notable, it may be appropriate to include them in the main body of the article" Would this clear it up? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 13:44, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I think this is a judgement call as I don't think it's clear cut (I may be wrong). The first full release appears to be the 9th, but this is not the preview release which always comes sooner. Ti say it is released on the 15th or 17th 'feels' incorrect as many people would have seen it legitimately in the cinema on general release before that in certain countries. I think this is an edge case as, from what I know, US films are generally released in the US before, or at least the same time, as other countries. Danno81 (talk) 13:53, 2 May 2013 (UTC)