Talk:Spanish language

Spanish as the 'Second most studied foreign language after English'

Some of your references [1] state the contrary : "Los más estudiados [languages] hoy, por este orden, son el inglés, el francés, el español y el alemán." And that is an extract of a report from the Cervantes Institute, which promotes Spanish internationally (as you may guess, it is not biased in favor of French language).

French keeps being the second most studied foreign language in the world nowadays (see [2] for instance). Please correct that factual error. Thank you.

--193.51.4.219 (talk) 15:22, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

French keeps being the second most studied foreign language in the world nowadays, French second language in international communication, after English, in the world! Counny (talk) 15:16, 14 June 2012 (CEST)

The cited references clearly support Spanish as being second most. If you wish to label it as third, then you would need to do more research with reliable references to support your claim. Otherwise, reverting is improper behavior. Whatever the reliable references support is what the article should reflect, not what you or I wish it to say. That's how we approach WP:NPOV. See also WP:V. - Taxman ^Talk 16:04, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

It is lived as a tragedy by many Frech people the fact that English surpassed French as the international language during the 20th century and now Spanish is doing the same. It is a shame, maybe. I myself speak French and find it a beautiful language. The US is a dramatic example of the switch from Studying French to Spanish in the latest decades. John. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.32.244.73 (talk) 17:31, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

People consult an encyclopedia for facts, not opinions. In the statement about the ranking of Spanish among world languages, the word "arguably" is a signal that the statement is not firmly supported by facts. Another signal is that 3 of the 4 cited sources are boosters with a vested interest in promoting Spanish:

• A university language department promoting its product. No basis given for the statement. Delete.
• Also a boosterist source, but at least it cites a speech by director of Instituto Cervantes.
• Also a booster, but, even better, names the source person, "la directora del Instituto Cervantes, Carmen Caffarel".
• A newspaper, the only ostensibly neutral source of the four, but no basis given for the statement.

If someone could at least find and cite the original report by Caffarel, that would be an improvement. An even greater improvement would be to cite an _disinterested_ source.

Please, either back the statement with unbiased data (and delete "arguably"), or delete the statement.

This question in particular needs better support, since it is obviously an emotional issue. Kotabatubara (talk) 19:58, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

French is just too hard to learn by average people (I became furious with my father when he chose it instead of English as his third language – what kind of Brazilian doesn't speak Spanish in an at least intermediate level? LOL – in 2009, oh that old anti-American commie). West Iberian languages are just a bit more complicated than English. Furthermore, there is way more Spanish-speaking people in the world. Outside West Africa and a part of Western Europe, French won't help you in countries highly visible in the tourism industry and/or with big, emerging economies that also happen to be mostly populated by individuals not very good with English (everyday I remember unadvised English-speaking people raging in Rio de Janeiro because of our general lack of anything other than portunhol and bad pidgin... And we're in the top 5 of Latin American global cities as well #1 tourist destination).

Nowadays, French is useful if you intend to immigrate, more like an Italian that had success in expanding itself to a place other than Europe, apart of its large cultural heritage due to its dominance for such a long time... and just it. Not even for tourism it is necessary, as you can well survive two or three months in France with English plus portuñol.

I know I am naturally biased, but Portuguese would be an actual awesome choice. If you speak Portuguese, you naturally has knowledge in Spanish, though the reverse is everything but true. Also, nothing against the hermanos or their language, but most people like more the flavor of ours... their biggest novelist and poet said it was the sweet one. Just kidding! Lguipontes (talk) 22:53, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Lguipontes, you are right. I live close to the Portuguese border in Spain and virtually all Portuguese people understand and speak Spanish relatively well. In fact, we all know that both languages are extremely similar (in fact I doubt that there are other two languages in the world that are more similar) but the sound system of Portuguese somehow makes it easier for Portuguese speaking people to understand Spanish than vice-versa. I often point out this interesting fact but a lot of ignorant people try often to downplay this fact. Why? Probably because Portuguese is Spoken by more than 200 million people and adding it up to Spanish results in a linguistic community of mor than 600 million speakers. You and millions of Portuguese speaking people know that this is a fact. I, who also speak Portuguese, know that this is a fact. Who else knows or ignores it? You can actually either learn Portuguese or Spanish and you will have access to a huge pan-Iberian linguistic community of more than 600 million people over huge territories, but it is true that it will be easier if you learn Portuguese first. Pipo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 (talk) 03:52, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

in fact I doubt that there are other two languages in the world that are more similar Heh. How about Russian and Ukrainian, for instance? Or, to remain in the region, Portuguese and Asturian/Leonese (to say nothing of Portuguese and Galician, though this case is questionable as Galician is closer to Northern Portuguese than Standard Portuguese is). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:25, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Galician and Portuguese are virtually the same language. About Russian and Ukranian I do not know, but if they are so similar as Spanish and Portuguese or more, then they are very similar indeed! Pipo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.203.97.65 (talk) 02:01, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Voseo

Can someone at least explain why the small addition to Voseo was reverted? Thanks Marxolang (talk) 23:38, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

You should give reliable sources to your additions. Compare with the article voseo where apparently there are sources.  Andreas  ^(T) 00:04, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I simply transferred some of the information that was already in other articles, e.g. Español_chileno#Voseo. As for sources, one just needs to watch Chilean TV shows or movies where it's not that hard to encounter the mentioned voseo verbal forms. I'm just not sure if they'd count as reliable sources. I particularly don't know of any link where such video files are permanently retrievable. Due to general copyright issues it is rather unlikely, but I'd be glad to receive any feedback. (-: Marxolang (talk) 07:38, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Please correct the map regarding voseo in Mexico. It is only used in the State of Chiapas but not in the Yucatan Peninsula. I was born and have lived most of my life in the Yucatán Peninsula and have never heard anyone using "vos" instead of "tú". That only happens with people from Chiapas. The map is wrong, Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.142.169.4 (talk) 10:39, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Wikipedia has to follow the data published by the academies, and it's their data that has generated this image. Prof Wrong (talk) 16:09, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Western Sahara

Western Sahara must be included in light blue in the Spanish language map, as it happens with the Philippines. Perhaps same thing must be done with the Sahrawi refugee camps in south-western Algeria. Regards.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 18:09, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Judeo-Spanish closer to Modern Spanish

I'm tempted to insert "to" in "closer to modern Spanish than [] any other language"; is that the meaning that was intended? Or is it "closer to modern Spanish than any other language is"? Kotabatubara (talk) 05:09, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

"Spanish speakers by country" table sort doesn't work properly

If you attempt to sort the table it sorts alphabetically instead of numerically meaning that in ascending order "10,267,764" comes before "101,455" which comes before "11,044" which is followed by "11,176,536". This is pretty damn broken. I would fix it but I'm not sure how. --StarkRG (talk) 11:19, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I made this same comment a year or two ago, and I was similarly unable to repair it, except to disable the "sortable" function. (That comment evidently has been removed as somehow outdated.) I also inserted the following "invisible" statement (now updated) in the text of the article, and it is still there (I space the characters so as to keep it from being invisible here): < ! - - If you can make the "sort" function work according to numerical values, then change "wikitable" back to "wikitable sortable". See Talk/"Spanish speakers by country" table sort doesn't work properly - - > Someone restored the word "sortable" in the code for the table without repairing the problem. Today I have once again deleted "sortable". I would like to see a sortable table if it can be made to work on numerical values, not "alphabetical" order. Kotabatubara (talk) 18:08, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I have found that a "wikitable sortable" with numeric contents is capable of sorting on the numerical basis, even with commas among the numerals. But I wonder if the problem in this case is caused by the footnotes in this table. Kotabatubara (talk) 19:41, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Try it now! For future reference: In the headers of those columns that need to be sorted numerically, I inserted data-sort-type="number" between the width expression and the title of the column. Kotabatubara (talk) 00:58, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

New interesting book that maybe useful for artile.

New interesting book on Spanish.

http://www.amazon.com/Story-Spanish-Jean-Benoit-Nadeau/dp/0312656025/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1370131820&sr=1-1&keywords=the+story+of+spanish

Cut and pasted from introduction:

Just how did a dialect spoken by a handful of shepherds in Northern Spain become the world’s second most spoken language, the official language of twenty-one countries on two continents, and the unofficial second language of the United States? Jean-Benoît Nadeau and Julie Barlow, the husband-and-wife team who chronicled the history of the French language in The Story of French, now look at the roots and spread of modern Spanish. Full of surprises and honed in Nadeau and Barlow’s trademark style, combining personal anecdote, reflections, and deep research, The Story of Spanish is the first full biography of a language that shaped the world we know, and the only global language with two names—Spanish and Castilian.

The story starts when the ancient Phoenicians set their sights on “The Land of the Rabbits,” Spain’s original name, which the Romans pronounced as Hispania. The Spanish language would pick up bits of Germanic culture, a lot of Arabic, and even some French on its way to taking modern form just as it was about to colonize a New World. Through characters like Queen Isabella, Christopher Columbus, Cervantes, and Goya, The Story of Spanish shows how Spain’s Golden Age, the Mexican Miracle, and the Latin American Boom helped shape the destiny of the language. Other, more somber episodes, also contributed, like the Spanish Inquisition, the expulsion of Spain’s Jews, the destruction of native cultures, the political instability in Latin America, and the dictatorship of Franco.

The Story of Spanish shows there is much more to Spanish than tacos, flamenco, and bullfighting. It explains how the United States developed its Hispanic personality from the time of the Spanish conquistadors to Latin American immigration and telenovelas. It also makes clear how fundamentally Spanish many American cultural artifacts and customs actually are, including the dollar sign, barbecues, ranching, and cowboy culture. The authors give us a passionate and intriguing chronicle of a vibrant language that thrived through conquests and setbacks to become the tongue of Pedro Almodóvar and Gabriel García Márquez, of tango and ballroom dancing, of millions of Americans and hundreds of millions of people throughout the world.