Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Choose Your Battles

Choose Your Battles

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Article is not notable per WP:NSONGS (Coverage of a song in the context of an album review does not establish notability.): its only sourcing—reviews, etc.—is as part of the album Prism, and the South Korean charting is likewise non-notable. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:41, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per above reasons XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 15:08, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: The song was specifically reviewed in the source materials separate from other cuts off the album. marginal call, but adequate for me. Korean charting worth noting, seems US-centric to say it's non-notable just because it isn't in the USA. Content extensive enough to be merged to main article if deletion favored, should not see all this person's work go to waste. Montanabw^(talk) 16:47, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't so much of based on location as it is that particular chart not being one that makes headlines or anything. I'm sure the creator put in lots of effort, and such effort can definitely go onto Katy Perry Wikia. Merge is also a fine choice. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 16:54, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Montanabw, can you please give me an example of sources where this song is "reviewed in the source materials separate from other cuts off the album"? I'm trying to figure out where you're putting the dividing line. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:23, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Where the song is specifically discussed by name, even if within an overall album review. Seldom do you see much else, really, There were several sources within the article that clearly cited comments made about that specific song. To insist that a song must always be separately reviewed to be notable is rather absurd, almost all popular music reviews are of albums, and within the review, the author will note the particularly good/bad/interesting cuts off the album. You only get to individual songs being reviewed by themselves when they become grammy nominees or something, which is more than NSONGS requires. Montanabw^(talk) 00:21, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Since almost every song nowadays charts on the South Korean chart, I'm not going to make that the reason for keeping it. Instead I believe that nowadays almost every singer discusses each one of their songs in depth, revealing some information regarding their development and production process. This is best included in individual articles, and keeping them in the main album article will make it bloated. The fact that the song charted somewhere is just the icing on the cake and even more reason to make an individual article. --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 16:22, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It would probably be better to include such information on sites like Katy Perry Wikia. The simple fact is that this is one of many songs that does not exactly have enough significance to be kept. It would definitely be excessive to have all that info in the album article, but it is also excessive to have articles for every song on an album. One must ask: How did it impact the artist's career? How did it impact society?? How did it impact the music industry??? In this case, the answer to all three of those questions is: it has had little to no impact. Just stick to having articles that have received significant attention/promotion (which generally is just singles and promotional singles). XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 17:07, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep – Plenty of information, certainly enough for a deluxe edition article. As long as there is enough information to make an reasonable length article, one can be created.--Giacobbe ^talk 22:24, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the whole point of notability guidelines is that "enough information" is not sufficient; the subject must be notable. Your argument goes against a fundamental guideline of Wikipedia. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:23, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Per the comments above. — Tomíca^(T2ME) 22:28, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The problem isn't the amount of information available or article length. The problem is lack of significance. The song fails WP:NSONGS. It simply is too soon to have this as an article since it hasn't been released as a single or promotional single or received any significant attention. Merge is fine as well, but keeping would not be a wise decision in accordance with WP:NSONGS. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 22:29, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

According to WP:NSONGS: "Notability aside, a standalone article is only appropriate when there is enough material to warrant a reasonably detailed article; articles unlikely ever to grow beyond stubs should be merged to articles about an artist or album." "Choose Your Battles" has plenty of quality source information and has a reasonable length, which would follow and meet the guidelines.--Giacobbe ^talk 22:42, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It does have a fair amount of information, but as @BlueMoonset: mentioned..... Coverage of a song in the context of an album review does not establish notability XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 22:47, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And as it later states, notability aside, as long as there is enough information, and article can be created.--Giacobbe ^talk 22:49, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Notability level trumps over information amount available, though. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 22:51, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That would be WP:OR, since nowhere in the guidelines does it say that. Either way, the guidelines state that an article can be created if either A)It has achieved notability OR B) There is enough information.--Giacobbe ^talk 22:55, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To quote @BlueMoonset:, "what it comes down to here, as it does with all songs (in this case), is what makes a song notable by itself: Is it very popular, is it unusual in a way that makes a wide number of people talk about it especially, do a large number of artists cover it, and so on. WP:NSONG is very specific about song notability. By the very nature of things, not every song on an album is going to be notable, regardless of how famous the artist is, or how famous the album is. The whole idea of notability is that it isn't inheritable. I have seen song articles become GAs and then be deleted entirely a couple of weeks later: an article can be quite well written and sourced, and have a bunch of information, yet be about someone or something that simply isn't notable by Wikipedia standards. Having read both "Double Rainbow" and "Choose Your Dreams", I don't see that either song is notable, but I realize that my view, though backed up by the WP:NSONG criteria, may not prevail." XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 22:58, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that (CA)Giacobbe doesn't understand what what Notability aside, a standalone article is only appropriate when there is enough material to warrant a reasonably detailed article; articles unlikely ever to grow beyond stubs should be merged to articles about an artist or album means. What it's saying is that if the subject of an article is notable (in this case a song), it's only appropriate to write a standalone article when there's enough material to make it worthwhile. However, if the subject isn't notable, then it doesn't matter what kind of material is available. Indeed, that's the problem with all of the Keep arguments I've seen in this discussion: none of them properly address the fact that this song fails the basic tests of NSONG, and is therefore not notable. It doesn't matter how many sources you scrape up, if none of them (or even all of them combined) are adequate to establish notability. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:23, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Not sure whether my nominating this is sufficient, or whether I should specify here, too. I note that none of the arguments raised by people wanting to Keep addresses notability or WP:NSONG directly (except possibly Montanabw's, and not very convincingly); indeed, some of them seem to be arguing that it's irrelevant as long as you can write a long enough article, which vitiates the very notion of notability. This article clearly fails to meet the notability guidelines for song articles. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:23, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that the consensus here seems to be to keep the article.--Giacobbe ^talk 23:29, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all. As it says on WP:AFD, Remember that while AfD may look like a voting process, it does not operate like one. Justification and evidence for a response carries far more weight than the response itself. NSONGS is a primary guideline for notability (and lack thereof in this case), and I haven't yet seen an effective marshaling of justification and evidence based on it to support a Keep argument. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:40, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Since when did evidence OR consensus have the least thing to do with decision-making on wikipedia? :-P As far as I can tell, it's whoever screams the loudest for the longest that gets their way! "Four legs good, two legs baaaaad!. Not saying anyone here is doing that but I imagine that to believe that we actually have either process operating is to indeed be a dreamer. Montanabw^(talk) 00:21, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

While four simple legs might hold more than two simple legs, there is also "one brick outweighs a pile of feathers". In this case, the bricks are "delete" and the feathers are "keep". XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 00:24, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:52, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:52, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]