Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Choose Your Battles

Choose Your Battles

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Article is not notable per WP:NSONGS (Coverage of a song in the context of an album review does not establish notability.): its only sourcing—reviews, etc.—is as part of the album Prism, and the South Korean charting is likewise non-notable. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:41, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per above reasons XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 15:08, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: The song was specifically reviewed in the source materials separate from other cuts off the album. marginal call, but adequate for me. Korean charting worth noting, seems US-centric to say it's non-notable just because it isn't in the USA. Content extensive enough to be merged to main article if deletion favored, should not see all this person's work go to waste. Montanabw^(talk) 16:47, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't so much of based on location as it is that particular chart not being one that makes headlines or anything. I'm sure the creator put in lots of effort, and such effort can definitely go onto Katy Perry Wikia. Merge is also a fine choice. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 16:54, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Montanabw, can you please give me an example of sources where this song is "reviewed in the source materials separate from other cuts off the album"? I'm trying to figure out where you're putting the dividing line. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:23, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Where the song is specifically discussed by name, even if within an overall album review. Seldom do you see much else, really, There were several sources within the article that clearly cited comments made about that specific song. To insist that a song must always be separately reviewed to be notable is rather absurd, almost all popular music reviews are of albums, and within the review, the author will note the particularly good/bad/interesting cuts off the album. You only get to individual songs being reviewed by themselves when they become grammy nominees or something, which is more than NSONGS requires. Montanabw^(talk) 00:21, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Since almost every song nowadays charts on the South Korean chart, I'm not going to make that the reason for keeping it. Instead I believe that nowadays almost every singer discusses each one of their songs in depth, revealing some information regarding their development and production process. This is best included in individual articles, and keeping them in the main album article will make it bloated. The fact that the song charted somewhere is just the icing on the cake and even more reason to make an individual article. --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 16:22, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It would probably be better to include such information on sites like Katy Perry Wikia. The simple fact is that this is one of many songs that does not exactly have enough significance to be kept. It would definitely be excessive to have all that info in the album article, but it is also excessive to have articles for every song on an album. One must ask: How did it impact the artist's career? How did it impact society?? How did it impact the music industry??? In this case, the answer to all three of those questions is: it has had little to no impact. Just stick to having articles that have received significant attention/promotion (which generally is just singles and promotional singles). XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 17:07, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep – Plenty of information, certainly enough for a deluxe edition article. As long as there is enough information to make an reasonable length article, one can be created.--Giacobbe ^talk 22:24, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the whole point of notability guidelines is that "enough information" is not sufficient; the subject must be notable. Your argument goes against a fundamental guideline of Wikipedia. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:23, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Per the comments above. — Tomíca^(T2ME) 22:28, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The problem isn't the amount of information available or article length. The problem is lack of significance. The song fails WP:NSONGS. It simply is too soon to have this as an article since it hasn't been released as a single or promotional single or received any significant attention. Merge is fine as well, but keeping would not be a wise decision in accordance with WP:NSONGS. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 22:29, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

According to WP:NSONGS: "Notability aside, a standalone article is only appropriate when there is enough material to warrant a reasonably detailed article; articles unlikely ever to grow beyond stubs should be merged to articles about an artist or album." "Choose Your Battles" has plenty of quality source information and has a reasonable length, which would follow and meet the guidelines.--Giacobbe ^talk 22:42, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It does have a fair amount of information, but as @BlueMoonset: mentioned..... Coverage of a song in the context of an album review does not establish notability XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 22:47, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And as it later states, notability aside, as long as there is enough information, and article can be created.--Giacobbe ^talk 22:49, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Notability level trumps over information amount available, though. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 22:51, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That would be WP:OR, since nowhere in the guidelines does it say that. Either way, the guidelines state that an article can be created if either A)It has achieved notability OR B) There is enough information.--Giacobbe ^talk 22:55, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To quote @BlueMoonset:, "what it comes down to here, as it does with all songs (in this case), is what makes a song notable by itself: Is it very popular, is it unusual in a way that makes a wide number of people talk about it especially, do a large number of artists cover it, and so on. WP:NSONG is very specific about song notability. By the very nature of things, not every song on an album is going to be notable, regardless of how famous the artist is, or how famous the album is. The whole idea of notability is that it isn't inheritable. I have seen song articles become GAs and then be deleted entirely a couple of weeks later: an article can be quite well written and sourced, and have a bunch of information, yet be about someone or something that simply isn't notable by Wikipedia standards. Having read both "Double Rainbow" and "Choose Your Dreams", I don't see that either song is notable, but I realize that my view, though backed up by the WP:NSONG criteria, may not prevail." XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 22:58, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that (CA)Giacobbe doesn't understand what what Notability aside, a standalone article is only appropriate when there is enough material to warrant a reasonably detailed article; articles unlikely ever to grow beyond stubs should be merged to articles about an artist or album means. What it's saying is that if the subject of an article is notable (in this case a song), it's only appropriate to write a standalone article when there's enough material to make it worthwhile. However, if the subject isn't notable, then it doesn't matter what kind of material is available. Indeed, that's the problem with all of the Keep arguments I've seen in this discussion: none of them properly address the fact that this song fails the basic tests of NSONG, and is therefore not notable. It doesn't matter how many sources you scrape up, if none of them (or even all of them combined) are adequate to establish notability. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:23, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"The problem isn't the amount of information available or article length. The problem is lack of significance" has got to be the most contradictory statement here. Actually laughable. If it has enough information and is a good length, then significance is achieved. — ₳aron 18:48, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Not sure whether my nominating this is sufficient, or whether I should specify here, too. I note that none of the arguments raised by people wanting to Keep addresses notability or WP:NSONG directly (except possibly Montanabw's, and not very convincingly); indeed, some of them seem to be arguing that it's irrelevant as long as you can write a long enough article, which vitiates the very notion of notability. This article clearly fails to meet the notability guidelines for song articles. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:23, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that the consensus here seems to be to keep the article.--Giacobbe ^talk 23:29, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all. As it says on WP:AFD, Remember that while AfD may look like a voting process, it does not operate like one. Justification and evidence for a response carries far more weight than the response itself. NSONGS is a primary guideline for notability (and lack thereof in this case), and I haven't yet seen an effective marshaling of justification and evidence based on it to support a Keep argument. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:40, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Since when did evidence OR consensus have the least thing to do with decision-making on wikipedia? :-P As far as I can tell, it's whoever screams the loudest for the longest that gets their way! "Four legs good, two legs baaaaad!. Not saying anyone here is doing that but I imagine that to believe that we actually have either process operating is to indeed be a dreamer. Montanabw^(talk) 00:21, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

While four simple legs might hold more than two simple legs, there is also "one brick outweighs a pile of feathers". In this case, the bricks are "delete" and the feathers are "keep". XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 00:24, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:52, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:52, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - It charted, it's received coverage. There's really nothing you can do as it charted. We inhabit a digital world now, which means non-singles regularly chart now and more emphasis is placed on non-singles. This isn't the 90s anymore. This is supposed to be encyclopaedia, it's about time it starting being treated as a proper one. Saying that album reviews which talk about non-singles are not good enough is redundant too, where else are you meant to get info from? Does it make a difference? No. It's still a critic giving their opinion, it shouldn't matter which form it comes in. We don't live in a singles only society anymore, this is the digital era. People allow non-singles to chart on the Hot 100 now, so it shouldn't be any different on here. Also, saying that the South Korea chart isn't notable enough it a load of bullshit. It's a countries national chart. We don't say that one chart is more important than the other. Believe it or not, the music industry does not purely revolve about the United States and Billboard. What on earth is Wikipedia coming to. There used to be such a great sense of community and now it's just a battle ground of people trying to denounce the hard works of others who are tying to make this site as encyclopaedic as possible. — ₳aron 13:59, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I was disappointed to see that this post was the result of WP:CANVASS (see User talk:Calvin999#Notice), but more that it completely ignores WP:NSONG in favor of the discredited "there's really nothing you can do as it charted" claim, which the 2013 revision to NSONG explicitly contradicts. As the notability guidelines make clear, only if other things about the song are true does the potential of charting come into it, and in the case of South Korea, the way the singles chart is structured means it should be used with care, since virtually every song from every popular album is going to show up on that chart the week it drops, which clearly makes the chart questionable when it comes to discerning between notable and non-notable tracks on such albums. Every song that an artist releases is not notable; that isn't how notability works on Wikipedia. A majority simply won't be—it's the nature of songs that this is so—which means the majority shouldn't be getting articles. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:29, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

How? Leona Lewis's "Lovebird" was a single but only charted in one country, South Korea.. Should that be deleted? And @BlueMoonset: my verdict would have been the same regardless. No one asked me to vote to keep, actually, so it's not canvassing. It's try, if a song charts, it's notable. Obviously, there needs to be a fair amount of info to go with it, and I believe this article has. Everyone song has the potential to chart in every country, as I said, we live in the digital era now. Where do you expect non-singles to be reviewed? It is an invalid argument to say that album reviews which talk about non-singles are not notable. It is also invalid to that say that South Korea chart is not notable. — ₳aron 18:39, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, charting doesn't automatically equate notability. One chart alone isn't enough. It would need at least several significant chartings (regardless of location) to be notable..... XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 03:18, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If that is the case then, "By the Grace of God" won't be deleted. It has charted in several charts; had coverage in various websites and magazines and was critically commented a lot. prism △ 11:49, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't say anywhere that you need more than one chart. You are clutching at straws. You only need one chart. — ₳aron 12:23, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Prism:, "By the Grace of God" definitely has more notability than the other non-singles/non-promo singles on the album, but it still has questionable notability. Also, "four" is less than "several". XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 13:27, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If you are so interested in applying this non-notability theory on songs, then I invite you to nominate an entire truck-load of song articles on Wikipedia. Almost every song nowadays, non-single or promo, is able to chart on some or the other chart, and Wikipedia is not concerned with just US Billboard charts. Like I said earlier, there is a lot people share about a song they have contributed to and stuffing that into an album article will take the focus off the album and more onto a song. (These are 1+1 articles in which there is some discussion regarding the song) Considering this, and the fact that the song has indeed charted, then what's wrong with having an article on it? Will Wikipedia collapse really? People really interested in knowing about this song and how it came about, including the really interesting fact that Perry took five months to write it, will really appreciate to read an article of it and learn different views regarding it, which may not be necessarily included the album article. Hence I rest my case --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 17:33, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@WonderBoy1998:, as I mentioned, location of chartings is not the concern. If a song only charted in the United States or Canada for example without charting anywhere else, it also wouldn't exactly be notable. What it would need is at least several significant chartings and headlines. One chart alone isn't very significant. Viral Internet videos of songs such as "What What (In The Butt)" or "Harlem Shake" on the other hand don't need chartings, nor do other Internet memes. The info for this track would certainly be welcomed at Katy Perry Wikia, where I strongly recommend it be added to since it fails WP:NSONGS XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 18:08, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]