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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Alfred Nemours (talk | contribs) at 11:04, 11 July 2017. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former good article nomineeNineteen Eighty-Four was a Language and literature good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
May 1, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
November 13, 2013Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Former good article nominee

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Overall Mistake.

Wikipedia being mentioned as number two search result is 1984 itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.230.17.215 (talk) 23:37, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Works set in one period but commenting on another

Is there a collective noun or literary category which covers works like Miller's The Crucible and Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-four which are set in one historical period but clearly or are generally understood to provide a commentary or challenge to another historical period, especially the writer's contemporary period? - BobKilcoyne (talk) 03:17, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Could the name "Newspeak" used by Orwell have been a passing comment on the United States' magazine "Newsweek"? Is this farfetched? Obvious? Neither?

There is nothing of value in this section. It is not about improving this article, but instead about satisfying some sort of curiosity by Alfred Nemours. Nothing here can be used to improve the article. Please take your forum discussions off Wikipedia. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 04:47, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have a question about the novel, and given that I know next-to-nothing about either the novel or Orwell (only having read this novel, Animal Farm, and a few essays written by Orwell), I wanted to pose it in case someone could speak with authority on the topic. If the question can be answered with certainty, such an answer even passingly referred to or footnoted in the body of main article would represent a substantive improvement to the article itself.

Could the name "Newspeak" used by Orwell have been a passing comment on the United States' magazine "Newsweek"?

Orwell is known for his criticism of media censorship not only in Russia, but also in England.

The sinister fact about literary censorship in England is that it is largely voluntary.
Unpopular ideas can be silenced, and inconvenient facts kept dark, without the need for any official ban. Anyone who has lived long in a foreign country will know of instances of sensational items of news — things which on their own merits would get the big headlines-being kept right out of the British press, not because the Government intervened but because of a general tacit agreement that ‘it wouldn’t do’ to mention that particular fact. So far as the daily newspapers go, this is easy to understand. The British press is extremely centralised, and most of it is owned by wealthy men who have every motive to be dishonest on certain important topics. But the same kind of veiled censorship also operates in books and periodicals, as well as in plays, films and radio. ("freedom of the Press," Preface to Animal Farm)

The above comment came four years before the publication of 1984. And Newsweek had been in circulation for sixteen years at the time of 1984's publication, and met the criteria mentioned above in the [period] (wealthy ownership, having been owned by stockholders that included the Cheney silk family and the son of Andrew Mellon, and centralisation, having already been subject to at least one widely-publicized merger before the publication of 1984).

"Politics and the English language" also concerns criticism of explicitly Anglophone political language from the relevant period--from which Orwell samples "jackboot, Achilles' heel, hotbed, melting pot, acid test, veritable inferno" among examples of "verbal refuse" that are "designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind..."--when Newsweek was a widely-known and large-scale political publication presumably reporting on some of the events that Orwell recalls.

In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defence of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenceless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called pacification. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called transfer of population or rectification of frontiers. People are imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is called elimination of unreliable elements. Such phraseology is needed if one wants to name things without calling up mental pictures of them.

Is it possible that the name given to Oceania's language in 1984, "Newspeak," was among other things a passing comment from Orwell on a specific English political magazine of his time?

(Is there anything in the Orwell canon (interviews, essays, diaries, published accounts of friends, etc., including those attributed to Eric Arthur Blair and any other known names) to either confirm or refute his the likelihood of this possibility? Or even to confirm or refute his familiarity with American press? Were the early activities of Newsweek's London bureau limited to information gathering, or was there also large-scale publication (if not readership) of Newsweek in either London or elsewhere that would have been seen by Orwell or his readers? The WP entry for one of the appendices to Homage to Catalonia cites Orwell's discussion of a Daily Worker account, indicates a familiarity with another New York publication.)

Perhaps the suggestion is far-fetched. Perhaps I've never seen the suggestion because it is so obvious and explicit that it never need restating. Perhaps neither. I simply have no idea, and I'm asking in case someone with some familiarity with the topic might be able to say something with authority about it. Again, to repeat, this question is not posed with discussion of the book or its content in mind. It is posed since if it can be answered with certainty, passing mention or footnote of such an answer in the main article would represent a substantive improvement to the article itself. Alfred Nemours (talk) 00:08, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unless it's been discussed in reliable, third-party sources, then no, it can't be added here, regardless of how "obvious" or "explicit" it appears to you. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:37, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously. That's why the matter was raised in the form of a question, rather than in the form of an answer. Incidentally, as far as my own view is concerned (though this is obviously irrelevant except to correct the insinuation and loading of the question by the comment directly above)--to those who read before simply disappearing blocks of text, I maintained that I was unclear whether the possibility is "far-fetched" or so "obvious" that it does not require mention, or neither. Thank you for your many generous and careful contributions to WP elsewhere, particularly in the area of your Japan-related tourism. All this best, and take care Alfred Nemours (talk) 00:08, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In the future, I recommend doing research ahead of time to find out the answers to your questions about whether something should be included in an article. If you find multiple reliable sources discussing whatever it is, then feel free to either add it to the article yourself or bring it up on the talk page. I recommend, however, that you try to keep your comments as succinct and clear as possible. Waxing philosophical is good for a philiosophy paper, but is not helpful here as it only serves to obfuscate the real purpose behind your comments. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:16, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Not being an Orwell scholar or specialist (and with all due respect to the bloke, without an interest in becoming either), I had neither a good answer nor prospects of finding one. The question was posed in WP talk in hopes of drawing on the intelligence of the wider community. And attached to a couple of sentences putting down the (near-negligible) bit I knew. I don't know what anyone else reading this thinks, but I think the weakest aspect of WP is empty guesswork posing as fact that comprises the bulk of way too many articles where the writing reflects an obvious cluelessness to anyone with the least familiarity with the topic at hand. And I think it really detracts from the reputation of WP, which contains a lot of valuable entries that do nothing of the kind. (One of the things I like about your entries on Japan-related travels is the clear familiarity with what is being discussed--even if, at worst, for the sake of a guide that aids tourists or other travelers. But that's real information and added-value.) Thanks again for writing; All the best, and take care, Alfred Nemours (talk) 02:10, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes! So are the lying euphemisms of New Speak in the novel a passing comment by Eric Arthur Blair on an widely-known English-language public affairs magazine with a rhyming name? I really can't tell if this is unlikely, or too obvious to a contemporary reader to even have to mention. Maybe not much of a mystery, but I don't know. So I ask. Alfred Nemours (talk) 02:10, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please try to encourage discussion on improvements (to this article, like others), rather than discourage it.

At the time of this writing, discussion pursuant to the question of the meaning of a word in the novel has been closed, with an appended note explaining that the discussion contained "nothing of value," and according to the same opinion apparently must have posed no prospect for containing anything of value. There is some irony in having to respond to this in an entry devoted to 1984. Nonetheless, let me say that I respectfully disagree. This was no "forum discussion" as stated. No discussion was taken into the article. "Newspeak" is a term used in the novel that contains its own WP entry. A reliable answer on point (either footnoted or via passing mention, as noted) that add anything substantive to the article's description of this term would only add to the quality of the article. As explicitly noted, discussion was pursued throughout with such an improvement in mind.

I see no reason for discouraging follow-up on this topic.

Please try to encourage discussion on improvements (to this article, and to others), rather than discourage it. All the best, Alfred Nemours (talk) 10:56, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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