User talk:Wolfdog

Before February 2016

A barnstar for you!

The Original Barnstar

Hi Wolfdog, Thanks very much for your contribution to <<Phonological history of English short A>> and I've learned a lot from it. However, I actually have a question, or rather a confusion maybe, in the section of <<æ tensing>>, where I saw you edited quite a some. For several times, the phrase "raised and tensed" appears. My understanding is that "raised" is an indispensable component of "tensed" (the other one is either "lengthened" or "diphthongized"), but the "and" conjunction makes it look like they are in parallel, rather than one including the other. Could you perhaps help me clarify my confusion if you know the answer? Very much appreciated!! CHNNLBOKA (talk) 14:30, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

/æ/ tensing

Hi Wolfdog, Thanks very much for your contribution to <<Phonological history of English short A>> and I've learned a lot from it. However, I actually have a question, or rather a confusion maybe, in the section of <<æ tensing>>, where I saw you edited quite a some. For several times, the phrase "raised and tensed" appears. My understanding is that "raised" is an indispensable component of "tensed" (the other one is either "lengthened" or "diphthongized"), but the "and" conjunction makes it look like they are in parallel, rather than one including the other. Could you perhaps help me clarify my confusion if you know the answer? Very much appreciated!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by CHNNLBOKA (talk • contribs) 15:01, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

@CHNNLBOKA:Actually, haha, I was wondering exactly about the difference myself. Each of the Wikipedia articles for the two fails to mention the other. I believe I may have borrowed, or even simply left, the phrase "raised and tensed" from prior edits. "Raising" is the more common term as far as I know; "tenseness" seems to me more a matter of perception rather than production, but that might just be my impression. I have no idea definitively. If anyone else ever explains, let me know too! Wolfdog (talk) 01:54, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

@Wolfdog:Hi man! I would be more than happy to hear from you about the difference between "tensing" and "raising"! Thanks!

Leonardo da Vinci: "patronymic"?

I saw you made an edit June 3, 2015 to the Leonardo da Vinci page indicating his name is patronymic. I'm finding that poorly sourced.

The text below gives details on Leonardo's name, which in full form as recorded in baptismal records is "Lionardo di ser Piero da Vinci", that is, Leonardo, son of Sir Piero, of Vinci.

It seems that the "da Vinci" is not patronymic but is based on place or location. The fact that Leonoardo's father also was "da Vinci" seems to reflect on place rather than patronymic as well. The "di ser Piero" is patronymic, but that's not how Leonardo is typically referred to.

The question's come up on Reddit.

Note that I don't have any specific expertise here, but the claim doesn't seem well supported, and conflicts with my and others' understanding.

If you've got a source that can confirm specifically that "da Vinci" is patronymic, please add it. Otherwise, the claim should probably be removed.

Thanks.

Dredmorbius (talk) 23:19, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

@Dredmorbius: Oh, you're absolutely right! I was thinking of a name/title for which there is no word I can find: a kind of sobriquet or title that indicates the person's birthplace but is not, per se, a part of Leonardo's name. Let me know if my revision to the article seems more appropriate. Wolfdog (talk) 00:27, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

New Jersey dialects

Hi. I have no problem with additional material being added for the inland north jersey and piney areas. I grew up 10 minutes from Philly, and when I drove to the AC airport to pick up my parents and their flight was late, I stopped at a redneck bar for lunch, and was asked what state I was from! Expanding the article makes total sense to me, we just need to do so with sources--I would not oppose your adding that material with sources. In any case, the discussion doesn't belong on my talk page, so let's keep it at the article page where all can see. μηδείς (talk) 17:38, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

@Medeis: I was trying your expansion idea (though I obviously think disambiguation is more appropriate), but I'm confused about some of your reverts, like putting back in a redlink, leaving "wooter" right after a bullet which some might assume means it's how it's locally spelled, and singling out the new section as needing additional citations for verification (of which I already provided 3 different pages from a widely respected source) when most of the rest of the page's information has no verification. Why not just use a whole-page verification template at the top? Wolfdog (talk) 14:12, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Southern English

It's not really a matter of what I personally like or don't like. The problem is that you made substantial additions and changes without sufficient citations. I agree the entire article needs better sourcing, but I'm sure you know that is not a rationale for adding to the problems. I won't edit war. For now I'll probably add a global refimprove template. I trust you'll add your citations in a reasonable time frame. Thanks. Sundayclose (talk) 16:09, 26 July 2015 (UTC) @Sundayclose: I'm asking where exactly you want the citations. I've been mostly already adding citations as I've gone along here, so I'm a little confused. There are certainly places that did not have citations, prior to my edits, but I don't see where my edits are substantially missing citations. Can you please tell me where, and I'll add in the citations. Wolfdog (talk) 16:23, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

If I misread I apologize, but it seems to me that you added information about Yat and African-American phonology without additional sources. Are your additions there sourced? In any event, I think we agree that the entire article needs additional sources. Thanks. Sundayclose (talk) 16:32, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

@Sundayclose: Initially yes, but I added in the sources after I read your reversion/edit summary. Do they seem sufficient now? (And I barely touched on the African-American section as it is.) For my own sake, where else do you think the article needs stronger sources? I'm happy to do some digging at some point. Obviously, I've mostly been focused on phonology issues. Wolfdog (talk) 16:38, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Looking more closely, I may have overreacted initially. I think if you have adequately sourced those two issues that I mentioned above I'm fine with your edits. I do think the global refimprove template should remain. Sundayclose (talk) 16:45, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

OK, that's fine. I was just wondering where I might search next to help improve the article by asking what others sections need help, etc. Wolfdog (talk) 16:48, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Sunday wiki-event, in case you're in the NYC metropolitan area...

I'd like to invite you to Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC/Wiknic in Prospect Park Sunday, if you're in the area, and we can compare imaginary regional accents over barbecue and scrabble!--Pharos (talk) 17:41, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Wow, what a cool concept and thanks for the invite! Unfortunately, I no longer live in that immediate area, but please enjoy some barbecue on my behalf!

I'm not sure how far out you are, or how often you can make it into the city, but we have monthly social events (including an evening WikiWednesday this coming week!) and regular museum editathons, if you like you can catch all our events by watchlisting WP:Meetup/NYC.--Pharos (talk) 04:47, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

AmE Map

Hi Wolfdog, i'm wondering why an earlier version of your AmE dialect map showed the Southern MD/Northern VA/Southern Delmarva area in the white color, indicated inconsistent/under-researched, which was consistent with the boundaries shown in ANAE, but you later changed this to be fully within the Midland dialect region. ANAE doesn't really categorize this region and TESLUR puts it almost entirely in SAE. It just caught my eye as i'm from that region, and was wondering why you made that change / what data supports it.

Oh, you're right! I must have robotically just filled in the ANAE white area thoughtlessly with the Midland color. I've gone back now to specify the region better. Hope it works (my uploads seem to take a few days to fully process thru Wikimedia!). Wolfdog (talk) 03:42, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

It seems to be showing up now, that area looks more consistent with other dialect maps. Thanks, also good job with all the phonological description it seems you've been adding to several dialect pages. I wish that on the Old Virginia page or SAE page there could be some info on modern SAE in the Chesapeake region, but it seems there's a real lack of phonological research in the area. I can tell you for example, from experience and from my own dialect, that the voiced/voiceless split and general fronting of the vowel in <loud/lout> mentioned in the SAE article is still very much alive in the Chesapeake, my own realization is roughly [ laɵd / lɜʉt ] , but I can't seem to find any research that supports or even mentions this in young speakers in the area.

August 2015

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ae tensing in "general american"

Hi Wolfdog. Your recent editing to the "General American" makes some of the sections more clear and readable, and I sincerely appreciate your effort on that and also broad knowledge about this topic. Meantime I notice that one of the major changes made by you occurred under the subject "ae tensing", where the table was modified and different from the one in "Phonological history of English short A". I suppose that they are essentially from the same source given that the latter one also is the reference in the first one. However, some of the statements about ae tensing in those two articles are a bit inconsistent in my opinion, such as the transcription of the tensed ae and some contents in the tables. Would you like to discuss it or clarify the difference? I would love to hear opinions from you. Thanks.

Kind regards, CHNNLBOKA — Preceding unsigned comment added by CHNNLBOKA (talk • contribs) 08:47, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi @CHNNLBOKA:, Yes, I simply forgot to replace that "Phonological history" one with the more recently updated and simplified one ("simplified" is relative here, haha). I've just done it. Are there any other specific discrepancies you were wondering about in particular? Wolfdog (talk) 21:38, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Hi @Wolfdog:, thanks for your response. Now I see the updated revision :). As to any other discrepancies, I do feel that the transcriptions of the tensed ae in the contexts in those two articles can be somehow causing confusion, at least to me. You used the diacritics of lowered and raised in "general american" but not in the other one, which to me looks like that it implies a narrower spectrum of the variation of tensed ae.

@CHNNLBOKA:, oh I see! I was likely being more specific/detailed when I was editing for the GenAm page itself, but more general/simplifying in the chart, which I made to be a grid of convenience. You can feel free to change either one if you feel it confuses less. Here's one of the main sources I used: According to the ANAE, which defines GenAm as having the vowels overlapping between Western, Midland, and Canadian English, "The most common short-a configuration in the West and the Midland is a more or less continuous range of allophones from low front to mid position, with no marked break. [...] The highest and frontest tokens are with nasal codas[....] It is evident that a continuous system of this sort differs from the nasal system only in the degree of differentiation of the vowels before nasal consonants" (p. 180). In other words, /æ/ is still the highest and frontest for typical U.S. speakers before nasals; whether the lowest possibility is [æ] or [æ̝] differs based on sources. If choosing one puts you at ease go for it! If you want some more sources I researched, let me know. Wolfdog (talk) 22:21, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

@Wolfdog:, Thanks for your response and reference to the source. What really makes it a little baffling to me is that (1) in "GenAm" the diacritics of raised and lowered are used in [ɛ̝ə̯] and [e̞ə̯]. It's never been very clear to me what the difference is between a lowered vowel and a raised vowel that is right under it in the IPA Vowel Chart. It all boils down to the question how much a vowel is lowered or raised with the diacritics, or for instance, will a lowered [e] be lower than a raised [ɛ]? (2) in "Phonological history" it is described that "A common realization is [eə]—that is, a centering diphthong with a starting point closer than the vowel [ɛ] as in dress". Therefore does it mean that the real phonetically accurate transcription actually should be [ɛ̝ə̯] (or [e̞ə̯], which is related to (1) again)? And if we compare all the transcriptions in both texts and charts of both articles, it is also a bit confusing to me what the most commonly used highest front vowel is for ae tensing. Is it [eə̯], [e̞ə̯], or [ɛ̝ə̯]? If there is no such a definition or the choice of them is rather arbitrary as the difference is (almost) inaudible, should we unify them with only one of the aforementioned transcriptions in both article to avoid any inconsistency?

@CHNNLBOKA: My most honest answer to your questions is "I'm not sure." This page's infobox (on the right top of the page) equates your symbols. My best-guess answer for your first two questions is "These different symbols all equate to more or less the same sounds." The diacritics are just a way to provide some nuance to the widely-used reference vowels. Regarding your question of the most commonly used vowel for /æ/ tensing, I personally prefer either [ɛə] or [ɛ̝ə], though I'm not sure if any research specifically backs up this perception:

• To me, [eə] is overplaying it: getting into the territory of the nasal system (e.g. heard in Boston) or the split system (e.g. heard in NYC); for example, even this University of Edinburgh page only notes one U.S. dialect as venturing into the realm of [eə]. (However, to attack my own source, I actually think the Edinburgh site terribly inaccurately transcribes "Standard American," using [æə] -- with NO diacritic!)
• Meanwhile, [æ̝ə] seems to me too downplayed (and as I say above, the Ediburgh transcription even more bizarre to me). If we agree that most people sound like something between [ɛə] and [eə] (or even [ɪə] in a real strong instance), than anything with the [æ] symbol is outside that range. When I hear most Americans say "man," it sounds more like "may-un" (even if slightly exaggerated) or than it sounds like the word "map" with the "p" replaced by an "n" (which would just to me).

Anyway, to get to the point you probably care most about: yes, I think we should unify the article better and just pick one transcription. Good point. Wolfdog (talk) 20:55, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

@Wolfdog:, Great. Thanks a lot for clarifying it.

@Wolfdog:, I just very minorly edited some wording in the first paragraph of ae tensing sector in the article "Phonological history". Please have a look and correct it if you have other opinions about the editing. Thanks a lot.

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maine dialect

I seem to have missed a step when nominating the article for deletion. Thanks for filling in what I didn't do. Chamberlian (talk) 04:13, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

No problem. Wolfdog (talk) 19:53, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Simon chapter 2006 pdf

Hi, I can send you a full text pdf of:

• Simon, Beth (2006). "Chapter 21: Saying Ya to the Yoopers (Michigan's Upper Peninsula)". In Wolfram, Walt; Ward, Ben (eds.). American Voices: How Dialects Differ From Coast to Coast. Malden, MA: Blackwell Publishing. ISBN 1-4051-2109-2.

to fulfill your request at Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request/Archive_26#Saying Ya to the Yoopers. Please use Special:EmailUser to email me so that I can reply with the pdf as an attachment. Regards, Worldbruce (talk) 07:29, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Hey Wolfdog, I never heard back from you about this. At first I figured it was because of an American holiday, but it has been a while. You haven't marked your resource request as resolved; do you still need this chapter? I can send it to you as a pdf if you send me an email that I can reply to. Worldbruce (talk) 04:40, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!

Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:45, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Hoi Toide

Hello, Wolfdog. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Thanks.

I just wanted to thank you for spending so much time keeping the New England English pages up to speed. I have become somewhat disillusioned with Wikipedia due to some things which have happened on the management level, so I haven't been around to monitor the pages like I used to.

Also, I hope that you have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Tharthan (talk) 15:50, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

@Tharthan: Thanks so much for your kind words. They're very appreciated. I hope you're doing alright these days.

...And the same to you: Have a great Christmas and New Year! Wolfdog (talk) 17:44, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

your viewpoints dominate to much

In terms of english dialect of North america your views are dominating to much. I plan on taking this to wikipedida management if it continues. One person should not do the ovwerwheliming majority of content on wikipeida, especially in regards to this subject. JeffMoore087 (talk) 05:49, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

• @JeffMoore087: I'm not sure what you'd like me to do differently. ...If what continues? Your first sentence seems to accuse me of editorializing; then your second sentence suggests that, in general, I'm just doing too much editing. What is your actual complaint? Wolfdog (talk) 13:20, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

That is hardly true, Mr. Moore. Information on North American English dialects is often biased towards one region, leaving other regions out. Thanks to good folks like Wolfdog here, we have more sundry information available on Wikipedia about the various English dialects spoken in North America. Tharthan (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Speculative fiction

I haven't found a source that actually defines speculative fiction. They start up pointing the main genres it encompasses, and that's exemplifying, not defining. From common features observed in these genres, we can get a proper definition and that's what I was trying to do in the article. I have previously called this exemplification a definition, but yes, I was wrong. And it isn't original research since it doesn't try to support a point of view or opinion, it just translates implicit facts. - - Alumnum (talk) 14:43, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Dialects

I'm curious about your interest in dialects. Is it a vocation or an avocation? 32.218.43.53 (talk) 00:30, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Hiberno-English → Irish English

Apologies for accusation of suspicious movement of Hiberno-English → Irish English. The article has been requested moved numerous times in the past, and AFAIK, has always been opposed. An admin (well two in fact) agreed it was suspiciously placed, but we all agreed, likely accidental. As this is WP, there sadly exists a minority of users who know how things work, so use sneaky methods to get things done their own way, which considering you are a veteran editor (almost 10 years now :o), I'm sure you are well aware of. However, that is not to say they were your intentions, especially considering you gave a very valid point, were with ill intent. Again, my apologies, and I wish you a very late Happy New Year. Uamaol (talk) 19:02, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

@Uamaol: Thanks for your explanation. I admit that, despite being a long-time Wikipedian, I still don't have a very sure sense of how to navigate it in the area of policy. Any time I am interested in a move or deletion discussion, I have to go, every single time, back to WP:AFD or WP:RM to remember again what protocol I'm supposed to follow. Sometimes I still mess up. I appreciate your understanding! Wolfdog (talk) 14:42, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I completely understand. I am often stumped and how some users, especially admins, can find information so quickly on policy topics and even stuff which seems impossible to find on Google. You may find a tool like Twinkle may be to your advantage with the above, however I've not checked anything apart from Twinkle out, and even Twinkle, I've only used parts of it. Uamaol (talk) 22:05, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

From February 2016 to May 2017

Pronunciation of onomatopoeia

Hi Wolfdog

I have partly reverted your edit on Onomatopoeia, which you summarized as Simplifying pronunciation, while including all the options (see my edit [1]). I think it is OK that the /oʊ ~ ə/ alternation be abbreviated as /oʊ/ since the reduction to /ə/ is quite natural and largely predictable. However, abbreviating the /æ ~ ɑː/ alternation as /ɑː/ is misleading. I have therefore reinstated the explicit mentions of both /æ/ and /ɑː/.

I am positive that you made the changes in good faith. You have probably overlooked that the code aː in {{IPAc-en}} no longer display as /aː/, but as /ɑː/. The reason for the change was that the use of /aː/ for the /æ ~ ɑː/ alternation is not attested anywhere outside of Wikipedia. This had been criticized several times, and in Help talk:IPA for English#The Diaphonemic System we reached consensus to deprecate this use. I have reviewed all instances that previously had /aː/ and changed them, where necessary, to /æ, ɑː/. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 14:09, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Vermont IPA...

...and I don't mean India Pale Ale by Long Trail Brewery. In the latest version of Vermont you have rendered the IPA as "/vərˈmɒntˌ vɜːr-/ ." Previously, it was "/vərˈmɒnt/ or /vɜːrˈmɒnt/." I assume that this was intentional. Cheers, User:HopsonRoad 18:56, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

• @HopsonRoad: Yes, it's more succinct, I feel. Wolfdog (talk) 14:14, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

descriptive linguistics V linguistic description: Dawn of Requested Move

Just noticed these.[2][3] User:Curly Turkey and I have been discussing it and neither of us were aware of the initial titles of these pages until I went and "Ctrl+F"ed the page histories after having already opened an RM. Both of us thought the current titles were the result of the page creators who are no longer active, but you appear to be, so dropping you this courtesy notification of the RM. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:35, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

May 2016

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Domestication. Your edits appear to constitute vandalism and have been or will be undone. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Repeated vandalism can result in the loss of editing privileges. 13MAY16 - "consciously influences the reproduction and care of another group" was not in the citation, that is your conjecture. Refer WP:Vandal Vandalism is prohibited. Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content, in a deliberate attempt to damage Wikipedia. Examples of typical vandalism are adding irrelevant obscenities and crude humor to a page, illegitimately blanking pages, and inserting obvious nonsense into a page. William Harris • talk • 03:10, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

@William Harris: Your accusations of vandalism are completely out of line, entirely unfounded, and extremely insensitive. I have a long history of consistent good-faith edits on Wikipedia, where I contribute as a regular editor. In fact, lets break down the actual edit I made:

• Here's how the edit before mine read:
  • "Domestication is the scientific theory of the mutual relationship between plants or animals with the humans who have influence on their care and reproduction."
• Here is my edit (that you're calling "unconstructive" and apparent "vandalism"):
  • "Domestication is a sustained, multi-generational, mutualistic relationship between groups of organisms, in which one group consciously influences the reproduction and care of another group in order to secure a more predictable supply of resources from that second group."
• Here is what it says verbatim in the already-cited source:
  • "Domestication is a sustained multigenerational, mutualistic relationship in which one organism assumes a significant degree of influence over the reproduction and care of another organism in order to secure a more predictable supply of a resource of interest."

It's undeniably clear that my edit is much closer in matching the language used in the cited source than the previous edit(s). If you would presume anything, then you should first presume I'd added the wording I did in order to keep Wikipedia more tightly aligned to its citations, which is objectively what I've done. If you believe something is conjectural, of course you should notify and discuss with the other user, etc. On the other hand, to read the riot act to me about vandalism and accuse me of "a deliberate attempt to damage Wikipedia" are comments verging on ridiculousness. It's hard to understand how you arrived at that way of thinking, especially since you have a template on your user page claiming that you believe in civility and assuming good faith. Wolfdog (talk) 19:23, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Incorrect. You deliberately chose the word consciously when the rest of the article - largely based on the same author's work - says it was not conscious. You knew exactly what you were doing and used Zeder's citation to support your personal spin across the English-speaking world's online encyclopedia. Do it again, and we take a little trip together over onto the "blood-sports page" (Admin incidents). Have a read of their deliberations; they appear to be reasonable people. William Harris • talk • 09:51, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

@William Harris: I already know that I deliberately chose that word. My intention was to paraphrase the quotation, abridging the nebulous phrase "assumes a significant degree of influence" into what I felt was the clearer "consciously influences." You have every right to disagree and think that "consciously" was the wrong word to use, which I am and was always happily willing to discuss, but instead you choose to employ an ugly tone with me, threatening me with "a little trip together." You need to learn to have a more civil tone. My history clearly shows that I'm a constructive editor, not a vandal. I have no need to spin the page one way or the other; if my word choice appears to you to have a spin, then it was simply accidental or unintentional. Make the fix, assume good faith, and move on. Wolfdog (talk) 17:22, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Allowable number of requested moves?

Hi! Is there an official or rule-of-thumb allowable number of requested move nominations? Let's say that a requested move did not generate much discussion and simply ended with "No consensus". Can the nominator against request that same move? Is there a certain amount of time the nominator should let elapse before doing this? Is there some other action that can/should be taken? Thanks. Wolfdog (talk) 17:36, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

The general rule of thumb is "don't be disruptive". I would think immediately relisting a No-Consensus request that had little discussion would generally not fall into that category, as the requestor could just be wanting a definite yes/no. Every situation is unique of course, so the specific circumstances would be more of a consideration than this hypothetical. CrowCaw 17:52, 7 September 2016 (UTC) I would say to wait a month before re-requesting. If a request ended up with no-consensus and generated little discussion the first time round it's not likely to generate significantly more 24 hours later. Additionally any comments that were made to the previous request will still be valid to a new one, so will just be duplicating opinion and be pointless. I'm reminded of Cheryl (entertainer) who has had at least 7 officially requested moves, and four within the space of three months. That became so annoying that a 3 month moratorium was placed on move requests as they were deemed disruptive. Chaheel Riens (talk) 19:28, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

lifelong speakers

Any reason why you never really bother to add female lifelong speakers of certain accents? (i'm looking in the direction of boston and philly) Having a list that is like 90 percent male is boring. Something really needs to be done a bout this. Juliep94 (talk) 01:32, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

He's showing gender bias. This should not be acceptable in 2016. And looking at those pages, it's more accurate to say it's 98 percent male. Yarkyard (talk) 03:56, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

No need to jump to conclusions. You can see in the past I've added several women to the Inland North page and I also added Gina McCarthy (the only woman currently listed) to the Boston accent page, so I have no intention of being biased. That said, the lists definitely do show a gender bias (I'm glad you brought up the issue, Juliep94), and I fully support including more females; please feel free to add some yourselves if you have the time! I'm happy to work on it if/when I have the time/stamina for deeper research, but collaboration is most preferred! Let me know. Wolfdog (talk) 15:01, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

It looks terrible to have 20+ males shown and only list 2 females. It's backwards to go out of the way to find as many male examples as possible and have only a couple females shown. Something needs to be done about that. Yarkyard (talk) 22:19, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

As I've said, I agree that this is true, especially on hugely disparate pages like Boston accent. The important question now is: What exactly should we do about it? I suggest we work together. Would you like to get started with me on a particular page? Wolfdog (talk) 22:24, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

There should be close to 50 / 50 ratio as possible. Please do what you can as soon as you can. I'm currently busy for the next couple months. If you get time, please try to get it to a near 50 / 50 ratio. Do the Boston page. It makes the site look bad and sexist with such a horrible disproportionate amount of males are listed. Yarkyard (talk) 03:19, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Again, I agree wholeheartedly and, again, I require the assistance of yourself or others. To be honest, I don't know many female speakers off the top of my head. Do you? If you can give me some names, I'd be happy to explore articles about them online. My best bet at the moment is to type phrases like "her Boston accent" in Google and hope that celebrities pop up. Wolfdog (talk) 14:12, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Not really. I just know that it's the same on the Philadelphia page as well. If people are going to list a lot of notable speakers, then they should at least try to get nearly as many female examples. When you do get a lot of free time, please really look into this. I'm very busy until really early next year. Adding more female examples really needs to be addressed. Again, when you get some free time, please look into this. Yarkyard (talk) 20:35, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Please provide edit summaries

These allow other interested editors to understand what you are doing, and minimize checking of your edits. Thank you. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 22:31, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

• @Isambard Kingdom: I often do so. Sometimes I forget. My apologies. Wolfdog (talk) 22:34, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

57.9% of your edits do not have summaries. Not a good statistic. I hope you can help your fellow editors by providing summaries. Thank you. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 22:36, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

@Isambard Kingdom: Mmmm... so, I'll correct myself: I often forget. Or I neglect when I feel changes are minimal. And early on in my WP career I probably never provided edit summaries. So, theoretically, I'm at least improving! Incidentally, where can one find statistics like these? Thanks. Wolfdog (talk) 22:40, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Click on "contributions" at the top right of the page. This provides your edit summary. Then scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on "Edit count". This gives all kinds of information on you editing habits. Thanks, Isambard Kingdom (talk) 22:43, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! Somehow, I never knew that. Wolfdog (talk) 23:05, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Edits

Thank you for your contributions to the "Storytelling" wikipedia page. I hope you continue to contribute to more pages like that in the future. I was wondering if you would be interested in editing content for the presidential debate pages and political pages in regards to the upcoming election in 2016? Or if you have any interest in editing for these type of political focused pages in the future? LiamWatson42 (talk) 03:33, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

English

Hi Wolfdog. As you have said Latin is covered in Romance languages so it would be repetition to state its influence. In the lede it's best to keep it as concise as possible without going into details covered in the links. The way it's currently written ("primarily influenced by Germanic and Romance languages, particularly Franch") I see no issue with as French is clearly emphasized. All the best. RichardHarris22 (talk) 01:47, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

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Northern American English

Hello, sir/ma'am. I am simple user of Wikipedia. I questioned with something on the page Northern American English, and it seems you have had a lot of input into this particular article. Therefore, it seems that if anyone knows the answer to this question, it would probably be you.

Do you happen to know why New York City English is not considered to be apart of the Northern dialect spectrum? Thank you.LakeKayak (talk) 23:14, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

@LakeKayak: Hello. Yes, I certainly have some insight into this question. In the North, the vowels in // and /aʊ/ start fairly forward in the mouth; in New York City, these same vowels start very far back, which can disqualify NYC from being a type of the Northern American English. This is the main sound-based (accent) difference between the two. New York City English also has a lot of other unique sounds and some vocabulary that is different from (or absent from) Northern American English. Do you want me to expand more on this? Wolfdog (talk) 17:01, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I do, sir/ma'am. Also, I was under the /aʊ/ was fronted in New York English. Is this inaccurate?

@LakeKayak: I'm a "sir," but you can call me Wolfdog. "Sir" seems too formal. I think you're asking if /aʊ/ is fronted in New York City English. The answer is yes it is. But it is NOT very fronted in Northern American English. Wolfdog (talk) 18:44, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

You only confused me with this line:

In the North, the vowels in // and /aʊ/ start fairly forward in the mouth; in New York City, these same vowels start very far back.

I think that you may have said the exact opposite of what you meant with /aʊ/. You said that /aʊ/ was backed in New York and fronted in Northern English. So, I was only confused. Thank you for clearing that up though.LakeKayak (talk) 18:52, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

@LakeKayak: Oops... you're right. I'm an idiot. I meant to say "In the North, the vowel in // starts forward in the mouth and /aʊ/ starts back; in New York City, this is reversed, with // backed and /aʊ/ fronted." My apologies. Wolfdog (talk) 18:54, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

I thank you, Wolfdog, for your help.LakeKayak (talk) 00:40, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Northern American English in New Jersey

Hello, sir. I have another question. According to the page New Jersey English, this is one of the dialects of New Jersey. However, this is just a big umbrella, do you happen to know which specific accent under this umbrella is found in New Jersey?, because I have no idea.LakeKayak (talk) 20:17, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

• @LakeKayak: The accent doesn't have a unique name in the research, probably because north(western) New Jersey doesn't have any unique features.... it's just part of the big Northern umbrella. It has no unique features of its own that are confined ONLY to New Jersey. Its defined features on the article include the "nasal short-a system" which is found throughout most of the U.S., and a backed /u/, which predominates in the North. There is nothing else very specific about this accent. Every village and town theoretically can have its own accent, but that doesn't mean that such an accent is unique or well-studied enough to have been given a name in the linguistic research. I hope that helps. Wolfdog (talk) 01:34, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

My question wasn't really answered. I do apologize. It seems that I wasn't clear. The page Northern American English lists three sub-varieties to the super-dialect: Southwestern New England, Inland North, and Upper Midwest American. Do you happen to know which one of these three is the local accent of Northwestern New Jersey?LakeKayak (talk) 03:07, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

• @LakeKayak: No, I think I answered it, but perhaps I wasn't clear enough myself. It isn't any of those three. Those three are the main three unique sub-varieties: sub-varieties distinct enough to be a special type of Northern American English. But there are also local varieties of Northern American English that do not have any such special or unique features. The English of North Jersey is one of those local varieties. Wolfdog (talk) 03:16, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, sir. LakeKayak (talk) 03:24, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Southern American non-rhoticity

Hello, sir. Looking the history of the page Older Southern American English, it seems you might be the expert on this one. Typically, speakers of non-rhotic accents drop the postvocalic r. However, didn't the speakers of older Southern Americans accents also drop the intervocalic r? I appreciate any help. Thank you.LakeKayak (talk) 01:41, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

The esteemed Southern-dialect linguist Erik Thomas, has simply said "Some older Southerners are also variably non-rhotic in intra-word intervocalic contexts, as in carry [kʰæi]" (p. 16). Wolfdog (talk) 02:27, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, sir.LakeKayak (talk) 02:29, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Fusion music listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Fusion music. Since you had some involvement with the Fusion music redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Thryduulf (talk) 23:27, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

Trump and NYC English

Hello, Wolfdog. Mrvs3rsac and I have been having a debate on whether or not Trump is a representative speaker of New York City English. Can you help us out? Thank you.LakeKayak (talk) 00:54, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

North American Region Phonology

Thanks for the explanation.LakeKayak (talk) 20:11, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

LakeKayak: The discussion is closed. Feel free to edit. Wolfdog (talk) 14:50, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

American and British English grammatical differences

Hello. I see you had issues with some of the content on the aforementioned page. To start, your edits are acceptable and useful edits. Just to let you know, in case some the content pissed you off, the original page Comparison of American and British English had a tag that said that page should be re-written. As a result, there will be problems with this new page, none of which anybody intended. And any help is appreciated. Thank you.LakeKayak (talk) 23:42, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

LakeKayak: I'm not upset about anything! Just making a few edits here and there. Wolfdog (talk) 17:53, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Question on the ANAE

I beg your pardon, Wolfdog. I read something that Labov et al. in the ANAE said that confused me a little bit about /æ/ tensing in New York City, describing the sound /eə/ as being. "overtly stigmatized". I did look up the word "overtly", and I found it defined as "openly or without secret". However, in my own experiences, it at least seems unlikely given that /æ/ tensing occurs in almost all American dialects at least before nasals. I am under the assumption that I simply misunderstood what Labov et al. were saying. Do you think you could explain this? The location of the quote is chapter 13.LakeKayak (talk) 23:44, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

LakeKayak: The quotation reads "Further, it should be noted that raising of /æh/ is overtly stigmatized in New York City, and with any attention given to speech is apt to show correction of raised /æh/ to low front [æ:]." It's under a section called "The Split System," so I think it is specifically talking about the NYC split system. This is what is specifically stigmatized in NYC, not just any kind of /æ/ tensing. Wolfdog (talk) 00:43, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Thank you.LakeKayak (talk) 00:47, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Rojos del Águila de Veracruz team name in English

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Rojos del Águila de Veracruz#Team name. I believe that you have been involved in translation edits on the Rojos del Águila de Veracruz article. Previously, this article has lacked a consensus by edit on the English translation of the team name & has gone back & forth. There is now a discussion on the talk page for which I ask you to to concur or object. The current iteration seems reasonable to me. Please do not change the English translation of the name from this version until we have reached a consensus through discussion. Peaceray (talk) 23:04, 13 July 2017 (UTC)Template:Z48

SI

Here's one: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/G-Zay, for now it's just 3 users (including one we didn't discuss) but I'm gathering evidence for the rest of them. Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:29, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Sorry for not updating you earlier, but as you can see, one of the admins just closed my request without any action. Apparently, if a sockpuppet hasn't been active for long enough, it's 'not worth investigating' which, to me, sounds unreasonable, since G-Zay is known to use inactive socks. But I'd rather give up on that than argue with that guy.

If you see any suspicious activity on AmE-related pages, let me know. We can and we should report active socks. Mr KEBAB (talk) 22:43, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

@Mr KEBAB: Honestly, I find the user Blastprocessor somewhat suspicious. But I'm trying to assume good faith and take them to be a new (and fairly stubborn) Wikipedia user with not a lot of experience editing, who for the moment seems to have honest intentions. Wolfdog (talk) 03:01, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

What I find a bit annoying is that he keeps misspelling Cities as City in Northern Cities Vowel Shift. Does it look like a normal misspelling to you? Because to me, it doesn't. It doesn't make much sense even if you don't know what the NCVS is (why say "Northern City" is you can just say "Chicago" for example? This isn't some military code, you can name that city.) G-Zay is known for making bizarre misspellings such as and instead of an.

There's also this strange guy who hit us with a wave of false accusations and reported me to the admins. Mr KEBAB (talk) 05:25, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Apparently this is not the first time I find Usernamebradly to be suspicious. Mr KEBAB (talk) 05:30, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

I feel the same way about this other user as well. No, it doesn't look like a particularly normal misspelling to me. But it could be the kind of error like the very common "Daylight Savings Time" versus the original phrase "Daylight Saving Time" (though actually the reverse of this error). On the other hand, something like a hypothetical "Wounded Soldiers Foundation" sounds just about as good to me as "Wounded Soldier Foundation". Maybe it is just an honest (repeated) mistake. Wolfdog (talk) 19:35, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

We can easily check if it's repeated by multiple accounts, including the confirmed sockpuppets of G-Zay. I'll take care of that. Mr KEBAB (talk) 20:42, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

@Mr KEBAB: Thanks for looking into it. I really appreciate it. Wolfdog (talk) 20:50, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm a bit busy with the discussion on Help talk:IPA/Slovene. I'll check the edits within the next 1-2 days, or maybe today. Mr KEBAB (talk) 09:21, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Are you online? The mistake is repeated by both Blastprocessor ([4], [5], [6], [7]) and Usernamebradly ([8], [9]) but also the banned user Zero077 ([10] - yes, this is a G-Zay sockpuppet). I'll report them, but I'd like you to briefly describe your problems with both of these users. I don't mean to be a burden, but I also don't want to miss important details.

In the meantime, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Diabedia if you want to. It's hilarious how quickly the baiter became the baited! Mr KEBAB (talk) 07:19, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

@Mr KEBAB: Wow! Great catches! When you say you'd like me to briefly describe my problems, should I just write that here? Wolfdog (talk) 12:02, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

I think that's the easiest way, yes. I'll have to write a report anyway, I can't just copy-paste it from a subpage of my user page. (I actually could, I misunderstood how the SI template works). Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:13, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Sure, Mr KEBAB. Here are the write-ups:

Blastprocessor has only ever edited the General American, Western New England English, American English, and North American English regional phonology pages, appearing out of the blue this past November.‎ In the lead section of Western New England English, Blastprocessor removed detailed information with a specific source to replace in favor of broader information with a vaguer (and vaguely cited) source -- this same second source already mentioned in the body of the article later on anyway multiple times with actual page numbers and specifics given. I reverted Blastprocessor's edit, summarizing "You're repeating yourself and the grammar is inconsistent" and mentioning the overabundance of their source. We then reverted each other's edits for another round. Blastprocessor seemed to be ignoring my comments, citing merely "Please don't delete my source" when they themself were already deleting a source in the original version. Blastprocessor is also involved in an ongoing, unresolved dispute with me on Talk:American English about wanting to include the same vaguely cited source from the previous conflict on American English (where, incidentally, user Ajd also caught Blastprocessor flagrantly misquoting this source). This led us to talking in circles, with Blastprocessor bringing up the same argument each time, while I discredited and later tried to just move past this argument and come to something of a compromise (in fact, even creating a compromise from the very beginning of this dispute which went ignored). Blastprocessor, meanwhile, made no attempt to debunk or counter my arguments, instead simply repeating their own stance with "I see no reason why..." kind of talk. I also tried to educate this user on how to cite sources better on their user talk page, where, weirdly, Blastprocessor now suddenly suggested the idea of compromising as if I had never been offering compromises earlier.

Usernamebradly has only ever edited the General American page, also appearing out of the blue, also this past November. Their first move was to remove sourced and relevant information. They later added information to the General American page with regard to Western New England (and with typos), strangely adding this information to the section "Popularity" rather than the more appropriate section "Regional Origins". They decided to change "American Jews" to "Russian Americans" (something I haven't yet verified) and, strangely, later added an already-cited source (and information) to an unrelated section. Mr KEBAB has also made the interesting observation that both Usernamebradly and Blastprocessor identically wrote about the "Northern City Vowel Shift", a presumed misspelling or erroneous form of "Northern Cities Vowel Shift" (with Blastprocessor later on changing to the correct spelling). Wolfdog (talk) 14:14, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

I'd definitely miss at least a half of it if I were to write it. Thanks! Now it's my turn to match this behavior with the behavior of confirmed sockpuppets of G-Zay.

Check this out: the first thing Blastprocessor did after I mentioned the City misspelling (see [11]) was to remove my message from his talk page and reply to yours (see [12]). Isn't that strange?! It's as if he couldn't help it and showed his anger towards me by removing my message.

If Blastprocessor and Usernamebradly are indeed sockpuppets of G-Zay, then he's definitely watching your talk page. Do you remember that he used to write and instead of an in almost every message of his, sometimes even in edit summaries? Well, these accounts never make this error. I only mentioned that spelling error to you, as I didn't end up reporting those accounts (which, apparently, was a good thing because I'd just waste time and nobody would get banned). Mr KEBAB (talk) 14:48, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Damn it, how embarassing. Sorry for letting you down. I thought I've already posted it a week ago, now it turns out that I didn't. The problem is that I have the draft on another computer, which I won't be able to access for a few days. I'm now in a bit of trouble for overzealously defending myself on ANI, so that might get me banned for some time (or not, we'll see). I'll try to write that post again, but if they ban me before that, would you be willing to post it yourself? That is if you don't want to wait.

It was an honest mistake but, again, sorry. I'll try my best to hurry up and write it. Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:25, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Ok, here it is: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/G-Zay. Again, sorry for the wait. Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:40, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

@Mr KEBAB: No problem. There's nothing too urgent about this for me. You kindly offered to do it, so I wasn't going to harass you about it, haha. Wolfdog (talk) 22:22, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

At the same time though, it did look as if I wasted your time for nothing (see above), so thanks for your understanding. Mr KEBAB (talk) 22:33, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Done, all (and 7 more) blocked. They were faster than I expected. Mr KEBAB (talk) 16:15, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Wow; success! Ha... it's funny, I just left a respond to Usernamebradly mere seconds ago on Talk:General American. Oh well, I guess we've been wasting our time here trying to discuss with him. Thanks for helping us not waste any more in the future. Wolfdog (talk) 16:24, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

No problem, but we'll see about that. The guy seems to have access to private proxies, so he can bypass any type of ban here. Do expect him to come back. Mr KEBAB (talk) 16:36, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

What about this anon? Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:40, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Loss of vowel /u/

Hi Wolfdog, when I was fiddling again in Forvo, I stumbled across Mulki's pronunciation of the placename New York. It looked like the /u/ in New was dropped off, leaving the pronunciation to be simplified to something like ɪ‿j. Is this a phenomenon across American speakers, and is there a rule to govern when vowels can be dropped like this? I sorta have this, but I don't seem to emphasise it as much as the user above did. — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 03:06, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos: I agree that this is what she sounds like she's saying. I'm sure it's much more common to round the lips to [nʊ] in before the semivowel [j] in York. What your hearing is just an extreme variant of that. Wolfdog (talk) 13:53, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

(Talk page stalker :P) @Awesomemeeos: I'm not sure what you mean by dropped. Mulki's pronunciation is clearly disyllabic, and even your transcription indicates that. [ɪ‿j] differs from [ɪ j] only in that you're making explicit that [j] is glued to the preceding vowel without any pause.

With that being said, I disagree with you on the quality of the vowel, which to me sounds more like [ɨ], not [ɪ] (which would be quite abnormal in the US, only southern dialects can front the GOOSE vowel beyond the central position) and also disagree with Wolfdog on that the normal pronunciation isn't [nʊ] but [nu ~ nʉ], as the former is too lax a vowel. Normal realizations of monophthongal variants /i, u/ are tense, not lax (especially in the US). Mr KEBAB (talk) 16:25, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Haha, I'm not a very good transcriber :/ Yeah, I expected American accents to drop the /j/ instead of the /ʊ/ there. — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 21:08, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos: That's exactly right. Wolfdog (talk) 14:43, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

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Simplifying /n.d/ to /n/

Hi again, are you aware about this consonant simplification? I believe I heard it in general colloquial speech, and especially in conservative dialects in the north of UK. For example, I heard one guy from the UK say /ˈθʌnə/ instead of /ˈθʌndə/ for thunder. Can you further give me more examples of simplifications like these? And can you also tell me when this simplification can also occur? I don't believe it happens in every word with /nd/ Thanks! — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 21:28, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos: No, I'm no expert on this. I do know it's well documented in AAVE, Cajun English, and some Southern American English, and I'm sure many other dialects. Even General American speakers casually and quickly pronounce words like hand /hænd/ as [heən]. Wolfdog (talk) 21:38, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos: In Cockney, it can happen word-finally in words such as send [sen]. Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:43, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

@Mr KEBAB: Okay, but then how come it doesn't mention this in the Cockney article then? — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 23:55, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos: Because nobody has bothered to add it. Mr KEBAB (talk) 23:59, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

@Mr KEBAB: Maybe I should! Where did you get the reference from? — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 00:03, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos: Wells's Accents of English. There's a whole chapter on Cockney/Estuary there. Mr KEBAB (talk) 00:10, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

@Mr KEBAB: Sorry, but I'm having trouble finding it. Can you give me a page range on Cockney/Estuary? — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 01:52, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos: Pages 301-334 in the second volume. Mr KEBAB (talk) 09:52, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

@Mr KEBAB: Grrr... the pages are blocked again. Yet I did find this which makes an informal reference to the phenomenon. May I use it for the article? — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 12:13, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos: Sorry, but it has an awful lot of mistakes. It's not a good source. The AoE page you're looking for is the page 327. Wells doesn't mention send explicitly, but rather lists [ˈdæzɡənə] Dad's going to and [ˈtɜːn ˈlef] turn left. In the limited research I did on Cockney [sen] for send still seems possible to me. Mr KEBAB (talk) 12:24, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Trap-bath split

Hi, I wonder how easy it is for you to understand people who undergone this split saying words like castle and after? Since you say you're from the US, I believe you don't have it. I'm Aussie, which means I have it but a few words like example, chance and transplant. — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 07:28, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

• @Awesomemeeos: I'm not sure how you want to measure intelligibility, but for me personally (and I'd guess most Americans) it's very easy for me to understand people with the trap-bath split, though I don't have it. In fact, I'd bet that the typical American, listening to a typical London or Sydney speaker, would be able to understand "bath" words without ever suddenly being conscious that this word set uses a different vowel sound that the "trap" set of words; this "Britishy" split is not something we Americans are really conscious of unless we deliberately study accents. The fact that "bath" words are used mostly in very common words (can't, ask, last, etc.) probably helps this intelligibility for Americans; in other words, we immediately get that "bath" word by the context. For example, if an Englishman says to a Californian something that sounds to the Californian like "I ost him about loss night" or "lost night", the Californian can, without really thinking about it, immediately "hear" this correctly as "I asked him about last night" due to context. (Hearing the isolated word "last" in an English accent out of context, however, yes, a Californian would certainly hear the word "lost." But how often do Americans and Brits/Aussies communicate only in isolated words?) Wolfdog (talk) 16:03, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Mid-Atlantic unique features

Hi, quick question, but do you know any pronunciation patterns unique to Mid-Atlantic American English (not the Transatlantic)? I know of the single word on having the vowel of 'dog' and 'dawn' but that's it. — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 06:27, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos: When you say "unique to," do you mean "100% unique to" as in "not shared with any other English dialect anywhere in the world"? If so, then the on phenomenon you mention is not at all unique to the Mid-Atlantic U.S. dialect; it's also reported in most Southern, Midland, and some Western U.S. dialects. Here are some 100% unique features of the Mid-Atlantic dialect: its own special short-a split, several lexical characteristics (words/phrases), perhaps Philly's merry-Murray merger, and likely some other Philly-specific pronunciations (see Philadelphia English for details). Wolfdog (talk) 22:45, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Okay, sorry about the confusion. What about just unique pronunciation patterns, that could be shared with other dialects. Can you please give me some more if so? — ^{they call me} AWESOMEmeeos ... [ˈɔɪ̯]! 23:32, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Edit on Mid-Atlantic Accent

https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Mid-Atlantic_accent&diff=815115519&oldid=815060898

You reverted my edit with the comment "It certainly was taught; how else would it have been learned?"

People generally acquire their accent by imitation and correction of their peers, rather than by being consciously "taught". The current wording suggests, misleadingly, that the Mid-Atlantic Accent was consciously "taught" in prep schools in the same way that an actor might be "taught" an accent for a particular part in a play or motion picture. This was not the case, and the cited source does not claim that it was. Grover cleveland (talk) 16:25, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

@Grover cleveland: I'm not sure I see the distinction you're trying to make. The Labov source I backed the information up with says, verbatim, "r-less pronunciation, following Received Pronunciation was taught as a model of correct, international English by schools of speech, acting and elocution in the United States up to the end of World War II". The word "taught" is explicitly used. Wolfdog (talk) 22:35, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

My apologies! I see what happened: the original text (to which I objected) stated that the accent was "carefully taught at American boarding schools". I see now that the "undo" edit was not in fact a reversion to the previous text; I have no problem with the claim that it was taught "in elocution classes". I should have been less hasty before leaving a message on your talk page. Grover cleveland (talk) 07:50, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

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Great Vowel Shift

I didn't change the material. I only made some typographical changes, as generally it doesn't seem appropriate to give a title to one lonely sentence. So think about this. I didn't change the content.--Flamenc (talk) 18:22, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

@Flamenc: I'm sorry. I completely misread the change! Apologies. Wolfdog (talk) 20:25, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

No worries, we all make mistakes trying to make wikipedia better. Happy Newyear! --Flamenc (talk) 21:57, 30 December 2017 (UTC)