Talk:Kamala Harris

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Racial categorisation of Kamala Harris

How exactly can you describe someone with south-asian ancestry as 'African American'?

Does this term now mean 'black', 'dark skinned', or simply 'non-white'?

Please, this is disrespectful to people from the Indian sub-continent who have their own very distinct identities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.0.237.39 (talk) 13:26, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

In the case of categorization of Sen. Harris, it's complex, and without getting too high handed, reflects upon the state of race in America. Yes, she is of South Asian ancestry, and also of African heritage, via Jamaica. But, and I think this is the important part, she identifies as African-American. And in the desegregation program in the Berkeley schools, was treated as if she was African American. But I understand this might be disrespectful to South Asians. but I think thats out of scope on this page. Drop me a note on my talk page, or an Echo on yours, and we can continue this further. Rklahn (talk) 14:27, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

As the African-American article notes, "African Americans (also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans) are an ethnic group of Americans with total or partial ancestry from any of the black racial groups of Africa. The term African American generally denotes descendants of enslaved black people who are from the United States."

Many embrace being African American as a part of Black pride. Yet there is also the legacy of the one-drop rule.

IMHO, we have much to learn & grow around this in America.

Please see the following citation for Harris's own take on her ethnic background.

• Sullivan, Kevin (2019-02-02). "'I am who I am': Kamala Harris, daughter of Indian and Jamaican immigrants, defines herself simply as 'American'". Washington Post. Retrieved 2020-08-07.

Peaceray (talk) 14:46, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

It's not a problem at all. She is described as South Asian as well.—Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 16:37, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I think the question here is how she identifies, and in the Washington Post article she says '“My mother understood very well that she was raising two black daughters,” Harris writes in her recently published autobiography, “The Truths We Hold.” “She knew that her adopted homeland would see Maya and me as black girls, and she was determined to make sure we would grow into confident, proud black women.”' I think we need to refer to her as black throughout, with ancestry treated separately. —valereee (talk) 18:13, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

References

That seems like a reasonable premise. El_C 18:16, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree, a reasonable approach. Identity and ancestry are two different things. Behind OPs statement there may be an implication that we are being Amerocentric, and this is an encyclopedia, not an American encyclopedia. I agree. Rklahn (talk) 18:32, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm not involved enough to know what's going on here, but I just want to make sure that she is still described as Indian and Jamaican as well. Someone can be more than one ethnicity at the same time. —Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 19:59, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Naddruf, it shouldn't be any issue at all to describe her both as a black woman and as a woman of Indian and Jamaican ethnicity/descent. —valereee (talk) 20:55, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

It is fine to include multiple descriptors here. But to be clear, "African-American" is the predominant identity of hers, and it is not problematic to use this. It is not an insult to South Asians to use "African-American" to describe her, even though it is certainly the case that other identity labels may also be justifiable. RedHotPear (talk) 03:38, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Another inane WP discussion. She identifies as African-American. End of story. Please don't rehearse tired old banalities about who is black who is African-American. Please also don't imply (if you are doing so) for the hundredth time the other pieties about whether the Middle-Passage is a sine qua non for being one or another, whether rum, cod, and slavery are the sine qua nons. By any definition, she is more African-American (in the traditional meaning of the word) than Barak Obama is. So if you are particularly hurting about unloading the monkeys of old-fashioned bias off your backs, go to the Barak Obama page and turn him into a Kenyan-Kansan president with no history of slavery. What is the matter with Wikipedians? If it is not old-fashioned racism, it is the kind that makes Indians (and I don't mean any WP editor) unload their insecurities about being equated with blacks (the Lord forbid). Obviously her South Asian Indian mother did not have those insecurities, and she does not have either. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:32, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler, do you have a source for her identifying as AA rather than as Black? —valereee (talk) 02:55, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Not Fowler, but I just am not sure how important the distinction is here. Some want "African American" to be restricted in meaning to "descendant of slaves," but Harris herself uses the terms interchangeably, and she clearly identifies with the African-American community. Reliable sources also frequently refer to her as the first "African American" to do/be X, etc. ([1], [2]) RedHotPear (talk) 03:29, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Race is not a biological category but a social construct. In other words, society, not their pedigree, determines a person's race. TFD (talk) 05:39, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I found TFD's statement very influential. Where I said ancestry, above, I meant ethnicity. I was less than precise, and regret the error. We should not stray away from Sen. Harris' self identification. Rklahn (talk) 06:55, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I have partially reverted a recent edit which used misleading edit summary and unilaterally changed "Indian American" to "South Asian American". Per Google searches, reliable sources refer to her as "Indian American" at least 100 times more than "South Asian American" so we need to stick to common interpretation. To name a few, CNN[3], Washington Post[4], Politico[5], LA Times[6] and many other sources are very clear with using "Indian-American". SignificantPBD (talk) 16:54, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

See her own pages, both in the US Senate and her website, now cited in the lead. The usual Indian nationalism, or sub-nationalisms, have no value on Wikipedia. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:35, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

African-American is clearly the main identity of hers that this article should address. When it comes to other identities, why not avoid the "Indian-American" vs. "South Asian American" distinction together and go with "Asian-American," the broader category? This broader description seems to be echoed in RS coverage. RedHotPear (talk) 03:13, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

RedHotPear, "Asian" is a very broad term and unpopular compared to "Indian-American". This scholarly source from Harvard University Press also refers to her as "Indian American". We need to check what reliable sources say and the person in question. The sources noted above are of high quality and they leave no doubt.

Fowler, your personal bias "has no value on Wikipedia". Kamal Harris says "My Indian mother knew she was raising two black daughters .... But that’s not to the exclusion of who I am in terms of my Indian heritage".[7] When asked "You're African-American, but you're also Indian-American," Kamala Harris replied "Indeed", she also said that her African American and Indian heritage "are of equal weight in terms of who I am."[8] But you are just POV pushing and misrepresenting this source which makes no mention of "South Asian". I am afraid your poor comprehension skills violate WP:DE. You are also edit warring and ignoring that the page said "Indian American" until you modified it recently by providing misleading edit summaries. Read the top notice of this talk page and stop adding POV terms without gaining consensus. Riddhidev BISWAS (talk) 07:02, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Im really tempted to do a partial undo here, but Im going to let things develop a little more. I think we are clear on "African-American", less so on "Indian American" vs. "South Asian-American". The citations are, unfortunately, silent on how she refers to herself. So is https://kamalaharris.org/meet-kamala-harris/, which is in advocacy of her. https://www.harris.senate.gov/about leads you to "South Asian-American". This is a messy area that needs time for reflection, time is not of the essence here. Also, can we do a little more Assume good faith on the part of other editors? Rklahn (talk) 08:47, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Race, as has long been said, and wisely said again above by TFD and Rklahn, is a social construct. However, naming these social constructs is a fraught issue. For example, in more formal contexts "African American" is preferred to "Black." In a submission to the Supreme Court, a petitioner will most likely prefer "African American" to "Black" in the lead paragraph, but in whispering to their lawyer will most likely use "black." Similarly, "Indigenous American," or "Native American" is the more formal version of "Indian." Again, even today in informal contexts Native Americans refer to each other or their culture as "Indian." (The lawyer representing the Muscogee Nation in the recent US Supreme Court decision on Oklahoma being half Native American land says in a Youtube video, "I'm delighted to be back in Indian country.") The reason for the two levels of reference is that the formal name is usually a mouthful. So, the same person will be found using both terms be they "African American" (formal) or "Black" (informal), "Native American" (formal) or "Indian" (informal).

Also, the modern convention is to refer to ethnicities by the broad regional categories of ancestry, not by the names of the modern nations to which ancestral link might be determined. The broad regions are: Latin America (i.e. regions of the Americas in which the Romance languages (Spanish, Portuguese, and French) are spoken)), Europe, Africa, and Asia (which is usually split into West Asia, South Asia, Southeast Asia, and East Asia), and perhaps Australasia. The reason for this is that the ethnicities were established long before the modern nations took shape. So, South Asia is preferred to India (not to mention the additional confusion that might result from the usage referred to above).

So, summing up, Kamala Harris's father was born in Jamaica, and his ancestry is African (i.e. he is not the odd Jamaican White); her mother was born in the British Indian Empire (which then comprised present-day India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh) and her ancestry is South Asian. It is unimportant that the British Raj had decolonized by the time she came to the US, and that she most likely arrived with a passport of the Republic of India; her ethnicity is still South Asian for the reasons given above. Furthermore, KH's self-identification is African-American or Black. She has said very poignantly, "I was born Black and I will die Black." So, in our description there will be an order: "African American" first, and "South Asian American" second, but the latter only if needed. I should warn that if she does become Biden's choice of VP, this page will receive far more attention by editors promoting the various POVs about race and gender that have traditionally riven both American and South Asian societies. Various POVs will both disown her and claim her for their own. We have to be especially careful about preserving the NPOV descriptions. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:26, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

PS For the editors who might be thinking that I've come here with a naive or ignorant view of India, let me add (though there should normally be no reason for this) that I am the primary author of the FA India. I am well-versed in the nationalism (not to mention sub-nationalism, e.g. "Gujarati," "Tamil" or "Bengali") that India-POV editors attempt to promote in many things related to South Asia. See for example the pages Pilaf or Shalwar kameez, where "South Asia" is now established, but a year ago was subject to constant edit-warring by editors wanting to change "South Asia" to "India." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:07, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Fowler, I do not think you are naive or ignorant at all. I have also seen nationalist POV-pushing of the type you describe on issues related to India, and it is something to be watchful for, though I cannot definitively say that I already identify it on this talk page. I completely agree with you when you say that "African American" should come first, and when warranted, other identities should follow. Riddhidev BISWAS, it is absolutely not the case that the balance of reliable sources indicates that her "Indian-American" identity is equally notable. RedHotPear (talk) 14:22, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I see that someone, probably the editor you mention, has reinstated "Indian American." I would submit that the term "Indian American" if it is to be used at all should be applied to people born in India who have become naturalized citizens of the United States. Otherwise, for ethnicity, as I've already stated above, the broad category is "South Asia." ("Asian American" would be confusing because in the US it has traditionally been applied to East Asian Americans (i.e. those with Chinese or Japanese ancestry). There is good reason that all the former "India studies," "Indian studies," or "Indology" academic departments around the world have changed their names to "South Asian Studies." See Harvard, Berkeley, Yale, University of Chicago, Princeton, Cambridge, Oxford, ... it is a long, long, list. Anyway, I am on vacation; this is all the time I have. I've laid out my argument. I think the usage "South Asian American" should be preferred to "Indian American" for the reasons that I have given at length. Thanks everyone. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:44, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

That seems off-topic, but I would add that I don't see anybody ever changed "Indian" to "South Asian" on this article except you. So I don't think that will be the case.

Rklahn, the two interviews of Kamala Harris[9][10] linked above are absolutely clear about her self-identification as "Indian-American". TFD was also referring to the same Washington Post interview. I think we must abide by the status quo here. SignificantPBD (talk) 16:13, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

For heaven's sakes, her own US Senate Website says, "South Asian American." Your citations are incorrect. In neither of those two articles (the LA Times and the Washington Post) does she herself use the expression "Indian American." Moreover, in her book, The Truths We Hold, she does not once use the expression "Indian American." However she does use "South Asian:"

My mother, grandparents, aunts, and uncle instilled us with pride in our South Asian roots.

Note: here we have a new editor, registered in May 2020, with 102 edits, who is attempting to lay down the law. It doesn't matter that I'm the primary author of India, British Raj, Company rule in India, British India, Partition of India, Indian mathematics, Indus Valley Civilisation (which was most likely a Dravidian civilization) ... it is a long list, which includes the FA Political history of Mysore and Coorg (1565–1760), a region adjacent to the Dravidian-speaking region from which where KH's mother hails. All this experience and record is of no value in Wikipedia discussions. Go figure. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:28, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Im afraid I disagree about the conclusion here. The LA Times article only comes close when it quotes Sen. Harris saying "But that’s not to the exclusion of who I am in terms of my Indian heritage." Two points: 1) Heritage is not identity. 2) The subtext about this article is race, and has already been said, thats a social construct, not identity either. I find this particular LA Times article dubious as a source on identity. The Post article goes further in this regard. In the headline "Kamala Harris, daughter of Indian and Jamaican immigrants, defines herself simply as ‘American’" she goes as far as to decline Indian identify. Now, the direction this should go is clear to me: "South Asian American". Its the only thing Ive seen where she identifies her identity, from her own US Senate Website. I really tried to see both sides here, but am now in a position where I can draw the "South Asian American" conclusion. Rklahn (talk) 21:27, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

@RedHotPear: I am agreeable for "South Asian American" to be changed to "Asian and Pacific American" but she will then be the eighth Asian and Pacific American Senator (jointly eighth with Tammy Duckworth of Illinois who also assumed office in January 2017). Please see the usage in this citation, which is being cited for "Indian American" in this edit! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:18, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

We need to use terminology that conveys meaning to readers. Presumably readers have heard of Indian, but they may not be familiar with terms such as Asian Pacific and South Asian. Also, those terms may have different meanings depending on the user, and different terms may be used in different countries. For example, in the UK the term Asian is used to describe India and its neighbors, while in the U.S. it is used to describe China and its neighbors. TFD (talk) 21:54, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

For a large number of readers in the US, Indian = Native American; it does most certainly for Native Americans themselves in everyday use. "Asian" in the US and UK respectively has the meaning of the region from which Asian immigrants first appeared on the shores of those countries. National or sub-national jargon, however, is not a criterion for encyclopedicity. Precision is in the first description in a lead paragraph, and "South Asian" is precise; later, in the main body, it can be elucidated with "Indian," particularized with "South Indian," or even more with "Tamil." "South Asian" is unambiguous and is the NPOV usage worldwide now, used in scholarly writing and by international organizations. It is used by the California Department of Justice in its page on their former Attorney General Kamala Harris. When I have some time I will make a list of its use in the formal register by various sources. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:33, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

PS Another point, when we use the adjective "first," we want to apply it to the largest ambit of its use. South Asia = India + Pakistan + Bangladesh + Nepal + Bhutan + Afghanistan + Sri Lanka + the Maldives is quite a bit larger than India. She is the first South Asian, not just the first person of Indian, South Indian or Tamil ethnic ancestry in those offices. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:41, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

PPS Although I had used the link before I was reverted, it bears mentioning here on the talk page that South Asian American, which pipes to its plural, does exist on Wikipedia, and does a good job of explaining the term. Please also read both paragraphs of the section: Indian_Americans#Terminology about the pitfalls of that term's use. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:59, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Just a quick note that I found Fowler's "PS" point to be quite a good one. I encourage others to consider it as well. RedHotPear (talk) 14:47, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

@Peaceray:, @The Four Deuces:, @Rklahn:, @Riddhidev BISWAS:, @SignificantPBD:, @RedHotPear:, @Valereee:, @Naddruf:, also pinging admins with South Asia experience @El C: and @RegentsPark: I will be changing Indian American in the lead paragraph to South Asian American for a variety of reasons (all offered above), but mostly for the fact of term "Indian American" being both ambiguous and informal (best explained in Indian_Americans#Terminology). Her own senate website (see above), as well as the California Department of Justice site (also see above) about her tenure as their 32nd AG, use "South Asian American" only. If Joe Biden does choose her to be his running mate, this page will attract even more attention; it is best to choose the more precise terminology now. More precisely, I will be changing the sentence:

A member of the Democratic Party, Harris is the second African American woman and the first Indian American to serve in the United States Senate., ( which is problematic also because the first citation makes no mention of "Second African American woman," senator only of "first African-American to represent California in the Senate" and the second talks about Asian and Pacific Islands Americans (and as I've remarked before she is the eighth API-American senator (jointly with Tammy Duckworth)), but makes no mention of Indian-Americans.)

to

A member of the Democratic Party, Harris is the second African American woman and the first South Asian American to serve in the United States Senate.

Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:34, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

References

I do not feel very strongly, but your change seems fine. You make a good case that "Indian American," while popularly used, may be informal and imprecise in this situation. RedHotPear (talk) 14:42, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I think either of these are good, but I agree that it is better to say the "first South Asian American" in the lead. South Asian American is a broader category than Indian American. Otherwise it would be plausible that there could have already been a Pakistani American or Bangladeshi American, etc. in Congress.—Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 16:13, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I second this. RedHotPear (talk) 17:20, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I am on board with this. I hope that others see this as the consensus. Also, thank you Fowler&fowler for the ping. Rklahn (talk) 19:29, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

@RedHotPear, Rklahn, and The Four Deuces: Contrary to Fowler&fowler's blatant misrepresentation of Kamala Harris' book "Moreover, in her book, The Truths We Hold, she does not once use the expression "Indian" needs to be ignored since the actual quote of Kamala Harris is:

My mother, grandparents, aunts, and uncle instilled us with pride in our South Asian roots. Our classical Indian names harked back to our heritage, and we were raised with a strong awareness of and appreciation for Indian culture.[11]

This source does not qualify for "South Asian American" over "Indian American" and she has mentioned "Indian" two times right there. She also mentions her husband Douglas Emhoff in her book and writes:

Doug and I were married on Friday, August 22, 2014, in an intimate ceremony with the people we loved. Maya officiated; Meena read from Maya Angelou. In keeping with our respective Indian and Jewish heritage, I put a flower garland around Doug's neck..."[12]

She is very clear about her "Indian" heritage, so why we shouldn't be? @Fowler, you must stop edit warring and stop bragging about your contributions on other off-topic articles. This edit warring without gaining WP:CON, continuous blugeoning and canvassing isn't going to help you in denying these two interviews of Kamala Harris[13][14] which are absolutely clear about her self-identification as "Indian-American". Reliable sources refer to her as "Indian American" more than hundreds of times than "South Asian American". Unless we are seriously questioning the reliability of CNN[15], Washington Post[16], Politico[17], LA Times[18] US News,[19] ABC News,[20] The Hill,[21] and thousands of other WP:RS, which also identify her as "Indian American" but not "South Asian American", I clearly don't see a single reason to pick "South Asian" (which can also mean Pakistani, Afghanistani, Bangladeshi) than more specific and much more common term "Indian". There is no need for this page to be different than the rest of the Wikipedia or the world. SignificantPBD (talk) 17:10, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

What concerns me is that most readers may not know what South Asia refers to. I had to look it up, although I was aware of India. Does it include Saudi Arabia and Vietnam for example. If you use the term, the text should provide an explanation. For example, she is the "first South Asian American" (Asian American includes India and neighboring countries)." TFD (talk) 17:33, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Why? We can assume people will click on links; that's the whole point of links. And you don't even have to click; when I look at this article without logging in, if I hover over the words South Asian American, I get a popup that tells me where they are from. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 18:00, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree. Of all the terms used on Wikipedia that are not explicitly explained, South Asia hardly stands out as obscure. Indeed, much of its meaning is reflected in its words; the link should be sufficient. RedHotPear (talk) 19:35, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

In fact, the FA India, Wikipedia's oldest country FA, which I have primarily written and been managing for 13 years, says in its first sentence: India is a country in South Asia. South Asia is the modern term, corresponding to the five divisions of Asia: West Asia (to which Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey (the eastern half), Jordan, Israel, ... belong), Central Asia (Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, Kirgizstan, ...), South Asia (Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Nepal, Sri Lanka, the Maldives, Bhutan, and Bangladesh), Southeast Asia (Burma, Thailand, Laos, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, and the Philippines) and East Asia (China, Japan, the Koreas, ...) All United Nations agencies use those terms. The old western-centric terms (Middle East, Far East) are passe. The CNN announcement of a few minutes ago says "South Asian American." India-POV editors (by which I don't mean editors of Indian heritage) have for years on WP been promoting the use of "India" or "Indian" as in Indian subcontinent, but those terms are now outdated. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:45, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm an uninvolved editor, and I'm not taking a position in this debate regarding Indian-American vs South Asian American. I just want to ask Fowler&fowler why they feel it's necessary to keep pointing out they've made significant contributions to other articles about India on here? As far as I'm aware, your contributions there - although I'm sure are very positive and beneficial (I must admit, I haven't looked at them) - are pretty much irrelevant here (WP:CAU, I know it's just an essay). I'm sure the decision on "Indian" or "South-Asian" will be much better served if editors stick to that discussion, and the sources found for Harris's ethnicity/race. Seagull123 Φ 21:39, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Very true. How we forget.  :) Thanks for the reminder. I've scratched the last bit. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:00, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

• I favor the formulation proposed above: "A member of the Democratic Party, Harris is the second African American woman and the first South Asian American to serve in the United States Senate." -- MelanieN (talk) 21:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I would like to add that the term "South Asia" is used only when there is something mutually shared between India and Pakistan (or Bangladesh, Sri Lanka) but cannot be undoubtedly associated with either country due to their recent partitions from each other. In this case, there is no doubt that she has "Indian" roots as she has herself confirmed in her book and interviews. Thus "Indian American" is much more appropriate. Also, see this recent source which discusses her self-identification of Indian and African ancestry. Zakaria1978 (talk) 01:06, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler, you shouldn't be claiming consensus when several editors have reverted you and enough editors have objected the disputed edits in question. The article is using "Indian American" since 2017.[22] I don't see why you have to come up with "South Asian American" all of sudden contrary to the sources discussing her self-identification. Zakaria1978 (talk) 01:42, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Zakaria1978 Please do not misinform the readers about what South Asia means. Wikipedia can plainly see it in the link. Please also read her US Senate website which clearly states "South Asian American." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:50, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler, kindly speak to me properly. Do not speak to me in such a disparaging tone. Don't breach WP:Civility and WP:NPA. I have been saying to use Asian Americans, and have debated it extensively. But, you are the one who put South Asian Americans. Her stating South Asian American on her website was just a distinction, as she is the only one, nothing more I can see on this web link. Her identity is Asian American or Indian American, since her mom was from India. That is what I can clearly confirm. Zakaria1978 (talk) 02:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Also, Fowler&fowler, do not say stuff like this: "If it is not old-fashioned racism, it is the kind that makes Indians (and I don't mean any WP editor) unload their insecurities about being equated with blacks (the Lord forbid)." That is pretty blanket and bigoted statement to make. I have many Indian friends where I live, they don't all think like that. Zakaria1978 (talk) 02:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

And to be clear, I am definitely correct with my definition of "South Asia". You have ignored the sources where she is identifying herself as "Indian" which is more specific term than "South Asia" which is certainly too broad and can create confusion. While I am not opposed to using "Asian American" for lead, it still makes no sense to refer to her as "South Asian" when she identifies as "Indian". Why did you expand about her ancestry on 2nd paragraph of the lead? Zakaria1978 (talk) 02:05, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Again, please read her US senate website. It says, "In 2017, Kamala D. Harris was sworn in as a United States Senator for California, the second African-American woman and first South Asian-American senator in history." Please aalso see the California Department of Justice's page on their 32nd Attorney General, which states, "In 2004-2010, Kamala Harris served as the first woman District Attorney in San Francisco's history, and as the first African American woman and South Asian American woman in California to hold the office." What is that? Chopped liver? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:45, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

PS Sorry that last description was for District Attorney of San Francisco. Here is the one for AG of California: "Harris is the first woman, and the first African American and the first South Asian American, to hold the office of Attorney General in the history of California." (See here). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I apologize if I'm butting in to an established consensus (I don't see one), but while obviously she can be described as the first South Asian American senator, or Indian American or Tamil American more generally, Tamil Nadu, India, and South Asia are still part of Asia, and in terms of her significance as a VP nominee I agree that the widest possible "first" ambit should be used, i.e. Asian American. PrimaPrime (talk) 05:18, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for recognizing that there might have been an established consensus. Briefly, before Joe Biden's announcement, one existed. "African-American" was reached pretty quickly. "South Asian American" was harder, but its where we ended up. Being that its Sen. Harris' identity, I hope it's where we end up again. Rklahn (talk) 05:49, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

In terms of describing her identity in general, obviously there was a consensus around South Asian American, but in terms of noting she is the first VP nominee of x characteristic, is Asian American not the most accurate? PrimaPrime (talk) 07:57, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

This entire discussion is proof that continental labels as applied to human beings are little more than contrived constructs which cater to the whims of those who seek to use them, not an indicator with any basis in fact or rule. Elon Musk is an African-American by most definitions. Many don’t feel comfortable with that. Self-identification and what others call you is not relevant to ancestry, geneology, and science. It is a social-cultural construct and completely unnecessary and should be removed from ALL bios. Joey.J (talk) 11:18, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

She is not African American. Her father was Jamaican and mother is Indian. See wikipedia article on African American https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Americans She is a black Indian, or black Indian American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.75.22.3712:34, August 12, 2020 (talk • contribs)

Seeing the discussion here (and elsewhere unrelated to Harris), I can only go back to Peaceray's comment above and confirm that people of the USA have much to learn & grow around things related to race. Such apparently diehard attitudes are our downfall. For now, if we need such a definition it seems to me that what 96.75.22.3712.34 wrote immediately before this may be one of the closest definitions were it not for the fact that it's shameful that supposedly intelligent people can spend so much time and effort engaged in this definition game. She was born in the United States, so she's "American". Grow up, children, and stop bickering. 2600:1700:EA01:1090:6000:73C0:D95D:7A1 (talk) 17:12, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

She just referred to herself on international television as "black" so let's cut out all the erroneous (and ridiculous) references to her somehow being "African-American" when that definition is clearly reserved for descendants of African slaves. Joey.J (talk) 22:16, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

She ain't black man. Gregor 05:17, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

NYT on Harris and police miscounduct

Here's the New York Times story about Harris' record on police misconduct:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/09/us/politics/kamala-harris-policing.html

‘Top Cop’ Kamala Harris’s Record of Policing the Police

By Danny Hakim, Stephanie Saul and Richard A. Oppel Jr.

New York Times

Aug. 9, 2020

According to the New York Times, Harris "struggled to reconcile her calls for reform with her record on these same issues during a long career in law enforcement...."

Since becoming California’s attorney general in 2011, she had largely avoided intervening in cases involving killings by the police. Protesters in Oakland distributed fliers saying: “Tell California Attorney General Kamala Harris to prosecute killer cops! It’s her job!”

After the 2014 killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., she was asked to investigate a series of police shootings in San Francisco, where she had previously been district attorney. She said it was not her job.

Critics said she was "taking cautious, incremental action on criminal justice and, more often than not, yielding to the status quo."

In 2009, she wrote that she would like to see more police officers on the street. After the George Floyd killing, she said that the idea that putting more police on the street is "just wrong."

In 2007, she did not support legislation granting public access to disciplinary hearings. Anaheim mayor Tom Tait said that in July 2012 after an unarmed 25-year-old, Manuel Diaz, was fatally shot in the back by the police, there were hundreds of protesters at City Hall. He asked Harris to conduct an outside investigation, and she refused.

In 2015, Harris refused to endorse AB-86, which would have required her office to appoint special prosecutors to examine fatal police shootings.

--Nbauman (talk) 18:04, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

What improvements are you recommending for the article? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 15:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I would revise the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamala_Harris#Law_enforcement_accountability section, replacing the trivial details with a summary of the substantive issues, which the NYT story does a good job of outlining.

For example, I would cut the discussion of "Principled Policing: Procedural Justice and Implicit Bias," because there have been many programs like this, and when they have been studied, they don't affect meaningful outcomes -- specifically unnecessary civilian deaths, civilian complaints, and abuses. The only evaluation they have is subjective evaluations by participants [23] The KQED stories cited are just official statements, with no critics or evaluation. What do WP:RSs say about the program?

I would search the Washington Post, since they have good coverage of criminology, especially by Radley Balko.

There's too much detail about Rackauckas, etc., and it should be shorted to focus on Harris' role.

It should also address for example whether WP:RSs say that Harris' statistics effort was effective or ineffective. ProPublica tried to collect police statistics around the country, and found that they were inadequate. Is this true of California?

Generally, the NYT story is useful because it shows you how to write about police misconduct. If I were an editor assigning a writer to do a story about Kamela Harris and police misconduct, I would hand them this story and say, "Use this as a model."

I am generally reluctant to work on Wikipedia pages about popular figures, because there are usually editors who have strong feelings, and have effectively owned the pages. I'd rather find out first whether it's possible to to edit the Wikipedia page without an edit war. I don't feel like spending an afternoon writing a balanced, objective WP:NPOV story only to have an editor revert everything and replace it with the original press releases. --Nbauman (talk) 18:30, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, also, we're not a newspaper. What the NYT finds appropriate for an article isn't necessarily what Wikipedia finds appropriate for an article. And if you want to make large changes, run them by the talk page first -- especially if they're likely to be contentious, as you know these will be. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 19:46, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

That's what I did, run them through the talk page.

Wikipedia isn't a newspaper, but since our criterion for including content is WP:RS, and most newspapers are WP:RS, we will have a tendency to follow the judgment of newspapers in most current events. --Nbauman (talk) 23:11, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

It looks like nobody's opposed, although toward the idea in general rather than a specific implementation, if you're still undecided on whether to spend time on this. 2601:482:8000:C470:B531:76E7:C82E:7E0F (talk) 20:52, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't think we should delve into much detail based on one one newspaper article, but if you want to pursue this, it would be helpful to see a draft. Of course you could also edit it directly into the article, but if it's a major revision, you run the risk of being reverted. - MrX 🖋 11:38, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Father

Someone please add info about her father.

https://www.marieclaire.com/politics/a28259825/who-is-donald-harris-kamala-harris-father/

https://web.stanford.edu/~dharris/professional_career.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:101:8200:DC60:481A:B03F:A1E8:C916 (talk) 21:03, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Edit Request: Make criticims cited in article more faithful to source

Under Anti-Truancy efforts, the following is stated referencing a Huffington Post article:

"Critics charged [...] that Harris's rhetoric legitimized the notion that parents were responsible for their children's education."

The following can be found in the source:

"But to critics, the language Harris used to encourage a truancy crackdown and the system she reinvigorated were cementing the idea that parents always were the ultimate source of the problem."

I don't think that the source is faithfully represented by the current wording in the article which appears polemic/sarcastic. Neither is this criticism particularly central to the argument made in the source which is best summarized by the following two paragraphs:

"Harris has since replaced her punitive stance with the message that parents of truant children need help, not scare tactics. It’s a shift that happened roughly in step with voters’ waning tolerance for using the criminal justice system to address complicated social problems and Harris’ own preparations to seek higher office. In the memoir she released shortly before announcing her candidacy for president, Harris described her work on truancy as “trying to support parents, not punish them.”

[...]

Yet the penalties she once championed for truancy and the way she originally thought about the issue are foundational to how California handles truancy today. Peoples’ arrest wasn’t a freak occurrence ― it was the inevitable outcome of Harris’ campaign to fuse the problem of truancy with the apparatus of law enforcement. And Peoples is far from an outlier. There are still hundreds of families across California entering the criminal justice system under the aegis of Harris’ law."

Therefore I intend to replace this half-sentence by a more faithful version and to add an additional criticism that is close to the source's main argument:

"Critics charged [...] that Harris's rhetoric one-sidedly identified parents as the sole root of the problem and that a punitive, criminal justice based approach is unsuitable to address a complex social issue like truancy. They charge that she has since attempted to reframe her original views on the issue as supportive of parents out of political expedience."

Rappatoni (talk) 10:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with your proposed replacement. It's more faithful to the source. --Nbauman (talk) 16:42, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I just noticed that I don't have the extended confirmed user status required to edit this article. Therefore, I changed this to an edit request. Rappatoni (talk) 15:26, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Twitter suggests that her first name is pronounced "Comma-La" not "Camel-Ah". Have we got it wrong here? Timrollpickering (talk) 20:25, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

She herself says it is pronounced like "calm". That's closer to Comma and is probably what we have in mind with KAH. -- MelanieN (talk) 20:40, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Can you cite a source on her saying it's pronounced "calm"? Regardless, it would be an anglicized pronunciation and likely not what her mom called her. Kamala is a Sanskrit origin word, meaning lotus, and pronounced intonation free (like Japanese). It's pronounced more like cuh-muh-lah. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.154.207.45 (talk) 07:09, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

COMMA is a confusing reference word to use, in an international context. It has the back open unrounded /ɑ/ vowel in American English, but in most varieties of English around the world, COMMA retains a rounded vowel /ɒ/, which is often higher and close to /ɔ/, and certainly far from the way Senator Harris pronounces her name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:6000:130A:1297:F047:47E4:2E07:6528 (talk • contribs)

I agree completely. This is meant to be the English language Wikipedia, not the American Wikipedia. The correct "respell" template should be more like {{respell|CAHMMA|lə}} to get around the American mispronunciation of the "o" in comma. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:05, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

STRONGLY SUGGEST REMOVING THE POTENTIAL VP'S SIGNATURE FROM THE WEBSITE. 199.168.243.204 (talk) 20:36, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Why would we do that? – Muboshgu (talk) 20:41, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

Change all African-American references to Indian (India) and Jamaican. 2601:1C0:CF00:9060:F126:A443:7763:A621 (talk) 20:38, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:41, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: violates recently determined consensus. There is an ongoing possible revisiting of that consensus going on elsewhere on this page. Please participate there. Rklahn (talk) 00:15, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

Kamala Harris is not African American as this states. Her mother is Indian and her father Jamaican. 2603:300A:2202:A500:858D:F647:E38B:BFDA (talk) 20:40, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:46, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

She is Asian American. India, where her mother immigrated from, is part of Asia. Jamaica, where her father immigrated from, is part of North America. 52.128.35.18 (talk) 20:41, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Did it ever occur to you that Harris' Jamaican ancestors weren't initially from Jamaica? That perhaps they were brought to Jamaica from Africa? – Muboshgu (talk) 20:48, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

Someone please change the title of this article back to her proper name. 73.170.253.10 (talk) 20:49, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done The article title has been moved back with both the article and the talk page being move protected. -- LuK3 (Talk) 20:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

Please change how this appears in a Google Search it has profanity 2601:647:4B02:4F60:9C80:7425:78B1:1404 (talk) 20:53, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done – Muboshgu (talk) 21:00, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

Harris is the second African American woman is wrong, she is Jamaican / Indian 205.209.193.6 (talk) 20:55, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: This is the last time I'll say this before I start deleting these edit requests: Black Jamaicans came from Africa. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

Please change how this appears in a Google Search it has profanity (See previous requests re: Article title and metadata) 2601:647:4B02:4F60:9C80:7425:78B1:1404 (talk) 20:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Google search results are cache-based and thus Wikipedia has no control over what it shows in that respect. The article title itself has been restored some 1-1.5 hours ago. Iseult ^Δx parlez moi 20:59, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Lead paragraph

Half of her lead paragraph is saying she's the first X and Y person to be A and B. Shouldn't lead paragraphs just be for basic descriptions, eg she's been a senator for X years and was chosen as Bidens running mate, with all this race stuff moved later? It definitely seems out of place where it currently is.  Nixinova   T   C   21:01, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

@Nixinova: the Manual of Style says Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability, so I would assume it's because she is partly notable for being the first 'X and Y to be A and B'. However, I do think that the lead has changed quite a bit in the roughly 40/50 minutes since you posted your comment, so we may be talking about relatively different leads by now. Seagull123 Φ 21:50, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, it's been toned down, and is now fine.  Nixinova   T   C   22:08, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Removal of VP pick lead

@Cpotisch: why did you remove her being picked from the lead paragraph? Albertkaloo (talk) 21:09, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I didn't. I removed it from the third paragraph, since it was already mentioned in the first paragraph. Cpotisch (talk) 21:15, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Welp. I need glasses. I see that now, sorry about that. Albertkaloo (talk) 21:18, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

All good. Cpotisch (talk) 21:26, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

Kamala Harris is Joe Biden's official running mate/ vice president Remembereverything101 (talk) 21:11, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done Already done. Iseult ^Δx parlez moi 21:13, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Though she has yet to receive the actual nomination at the convention; she is not yet the official running mate. Iseult ^Δx parlez moi 21:13, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

FAQ

Anyone object to adding an FAQ at the top of this page re: her ethnicity? We're getting inundated with edit requests from people saying she's not AA, but Indian and Jamaican. I guess people don't realize that the slave trade visited Jamaica as well as the U.S.? – Muboshgu (talk) 21:29, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu, no objection. Clearly needed. I think it should note that we're calling her what she calls herself, period. Doesn't matter about Jamaican and African diaspora. —valereee (talk) 21:31, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu I guess, strictly speaking, she'd be Caribbean-American, which is somewhat distinct, that's unimportant inasmuch as reliable sources describe her as AfAm. We can use that, along with WP:OR (drawing conclusions), as a stand-in answer; I'd prefer that over a slave trade talk. Iseult ^Δx parlez moi 21:34, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Iseult, we would have to use language from reliable sources, and I don't know that they mention the slave trade. I brought it up as a simple fact that her father's family aren't "native" to Jamaica. I can draft something.... – Muboshgu (talk) 21:35, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Iseult, I'd argue it doesn't matter. On her senate and campaign websites, she calls herself both African-American and South Asian-American. We should call her what she calls herself. —valereee (talk) 21:36, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Here's a Reuters fact check of use. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:38, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

One question I support the FAQ should include is why this article isn't titled "Kamala Enhoff". Please explain your opinions on this question (I'm not asking this question myself; I'm only asking if the question should be on the FAQ.) Georgia guy (talk) 21:37, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Is that question asked "frequently"? – Muboshgu (talk) 21:38, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm sure the question will likely be asked by someone who studies her life and family. Georgia guy (talk) 21:39, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Apparently the biographies are already being written after about an hour. KidAd (talk) 22:11, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Georgia guy, why would anyone ask that? —valereee (talk) 22:09, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Wait, you think because her husband's last name is Emhoff, people will be wondering why her name isn't Emhoff? Seriously? —valereee (talk) 22:13, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

That doesn't need to be in FAQ. Most people know better; it's common knowledge that many professional women keep their maiden name. (Why isn't the Ivanka Trump article titled Ivanka Kushner? Now there's a NFAQ for you!) -- MelanieN (talk) 23:32, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Please don't start new threads. This is already a consensus above that the description of her ethnicity should be "African American and South Asian American. That is all the FAQ needs to say. There is no reason to reinvent the wheel in another thread. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:40, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

• I would support a FAQ. There's no point having the same discussions again and again. - MrX 🖋 21:43, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
• Echo the "no FAQ" thinking on the topic of identity. We have gone through it extensively, it has subtlety that I don't think an FAQ could capture, and any editors should simply go find the talk page discussion. If there must be an FAQ, it should simply point to the talk page section, and make no reference to even the consensus. Rklahn (talk) 21:59, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Rklahn. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:11, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I created Talk:Kamala Harris/FAQ. Please refine it with me. This is my first FAQ. If we agree to it, we can post it to the page. Otherwise, I can delete it. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:20, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu, should we add name pronunciation to the FAQ? KidAd (talk) 22:27, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu Please delete the FAQ. There is no reason to redo a discussion that has already reached consensus and nuance at Talk:Kamala_Harris#Racial_categorisation_of_Kamala_Harris. A second discussion does nothing except give people a chance to be disruptive. Best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:45, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

KidAd, yes! That's a common mistake people make. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:30, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu You jumped the gun here. There is not consensus on the existence of an FAQ. Even if there was, there is not consensus on what it should contain. Please delete the FAQ. Rklahn (talk) 00:20, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Consensus does not require unanimity. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:24, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

While true, "Editors who ignore talk page discussions yet continue to edit in or revert disputed material, or who stonewall discussions, may be guilty of disruptive editing and incur sanctions." You entered into an area where there was already a well thought out recent consensus, and contradicted it, with less than 24 hours warning. Im going to remove question 1 as it contradicts consensus. Rklahn (talk) 01:41, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

My edit got reverted, for reasons I don't quite understand. I restored consensus. However, it later got edited into a form less objectionable. I still think any FAQ is a mistake, this is a page now highly in flight, and any FAQ is likely to become outdated quickly. I would double down on that for any FAQ entry that contradicts the article, or consensus. Rklahn (talk) 03:33, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• I didn't mean to violate the FAQ in my response at the time I wrote it, but having thought about it, I do object. The recommended classification of Harris' identity as "African American" is not consistent with RS, scholarship, or practice. All RS say her father is from Jamaica and her mother is from India. Jamaican immigrants are not called "African Americans." They are called Jamaican-American. Immigrants from India are called Indian-Americans. RS call her a "Woman of color" which is an accurate umbrella term. There is debate about who the term "Black" applies to, but that might be acceptable. Calling Harris "African-American" and South Asian-Americans is political, not based on scholarship or practice. It is not based on RS.
• I also object to admins removing comments from the talk page. They deleted this, as far as I can tell: I get it. Democrats want the African American vote and don't want Kamala Harris associated with India because of the outsourcing of jobs...but her parents are Jamaican-American and Indian-American according to all RS!

She calls herself an 'American.' You could say she is the first "Woman of Color" or "Black woman" (though there is some debate about the use of this term to refer to people of color from other regions) to hold those offices. Although many people living in Jamaican come from Africa (as do all of us, technically), African Americans have a different history than Jamaican Americans. India is her mother's country of origin - it is the most specific term. Stick to RS and state that. People will eventually find out anyway - why compromise the integrity of Wikipedia? I think someone actually removed the record of my edits from the history! Articles:

   ‘I am who I am’: Kamala Harris, daughter of Indian and Jamaican immigrants, defines herself simply as ‘American’ - https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/i-am-who-i-am-kamala-harris-daughter-of-indian-and-jamaican-immigrants-defines-herself-simply-as-american/2019/02/02/0b278536-24b7-11e9-ad53-824486280311_story.html
   Kamala Harris Is Biden’s Choice for Vice President. A former rival for the Democratic nomination, she will be the first woman of color to be nominated for national office by a major political party.https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/politics/kamala-harris-biden-vp.html Stoney1976 (talk) 22:00, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Stoney1976 (talk) 22:24, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Reliable sources call her "African American". Or Black. Or a person of color (which does not exclude being Black). No source calls her "Jamaican American" that I am aware of. Donald Harris is Afro-Jamaican. His ancestry comes from Africa. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:29, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

We absolutely should have an FAQ section here, and it should include more than just racial identity. It should include other things as they come up, such as how to pronounce her name, for instance. The beauty of having an FAQ section is that we can stop having to write out answers to the same old questions that keep getting asked here - "frequently" you might say. We can just reply "See FAQ #1 above". End of discussion. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:36, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh, good, I see the name pronunciation is already there too. Good work, User:Muboshgu. I propose we transclude it to the top of this page right now. And add other things we get tired of answering, as they come up. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:39, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

MelanieN, are you good with the current wording? – Muboshgu (talk) 01:23, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

What happened to the name pronunciation?

The other thing that strikes me is that there's an awful lot of explanation and verbiage at the top. Is that typical for FAQ pages? Is it wise to say things like "feel free to change it" and to encourage discussion? I was expecting something more like the "Talk:Donald Trump/Current consensus" page at Talk:Donald Trump, whose attitude is "this is the existing consensus, don't change it without discussion;" it allows us to just point to it when the question gets asked for the umpteenth time and it doesn't encourage people to argue about it. I think it was User:JFG who set that up. Did you look at some other FAQ pages, to see whether they make their intro assertive or accommodating, and whether it is wordy or brief?

You may have trouble figuring out where to put it at the top of this cluttered page. Again, you might look to see where other pages put it.

I'm glad you're doing this, it is going to save us all a lot of time and energy! You said it was your first FAQ so I thought I would share some thoughts. -- MelanieN (talk) 02:58, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

You may not have transcluded this yet but I am already using it. My standard reply now: "We are describing her as African-American and South Asian-American because the way she describes herself - at her Senate page and elsewhere. Please see Talk:Kamala Harris/FAQ."

"Harris identifies as African American"

Isn't Harris 50% (Asian) Indian? Charles Juvon (talk) 22:41, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah. She's biracial, and identifies as African American.[24] – Muboshgu (talk) 22:50, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes. Her father is from Jamaica and her mother is from India. RS, including the news tonight, are currently referring to her as a Woman of Color, Black, and biracial. Stoney1976 (talk) 22:52, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

When and where (reference) does she say she "identifies as African American"? Charles Juvon (talk) 23:12, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Moboshgu gave you a reference, immediately above. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:25, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. On second thought, a reference to (Asian) India's reaction to Harris' selection of racial identity might be more enlightening. Charles Juvon (talk) 23:38, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Asian America or South Asian American

Mr. KidAd, kindly revert your edit here[25]. According to Race and ethnicity in the United States, United States Census officially recognised five racial categories, which are White American, African American, Native Americans/Alaska Native, Asian American, and Native Hawaiian/Other Pacific Islander as well as people of two or more races. It does not recognise South Asian American, please change it back to simply Asian American. Zakaria1978 (talk) 23:02, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your politeness! But per WP:NOTSOURCE, do not use a Wikipedia article as a source for another Wikipedia article, even when describing Wikipedia. As far as I can tell Harris identifies as South Asian-American, so we should make that distinction. KidAd (talk) 23:04, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Mr. KidAd, that is not true, her identity is of Asian American. What source do you have that she "solely" identifies with the sub-category of South Asian American? The US does not recognise South Asian American, straight from the US census. Zakaria1978 (talk) 23:11, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what categories the U.S. government/census/etc. use or recognize. What matters is how the subject of the article identifies. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 23:14, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Her official Senate.gov page says it all here. Then there's CNBC, CNN, Politico, and Business Insider. KidAd (talk) 23:19, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

My comment wasn't about what she claims. Whatever sources editors find for that are great. My concern is that there's no reason to base anything description on census categories. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 23:20, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Zakaria1978, please stop calling other editors Mr. It's offensive. Harris identifies as African-American and South Asian-American on her website. —valereee (talk) 23:22, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Valereee, I live in the UAE, here, calling someone "Mr." is a sign of respect. You did not have to be so rude and America-centric. Saying it politely would have worked. No, her website does not say he "identifies" or "solely identifies" as South Asian, it just says she was the "first South Asian American senator". Little to do with ethnicity, as South Asian can be Iranic (like myself), Indo-Aryan, Dravidian or Mongoloid. The mention of South Asian is just to distinguish herself. The USA does not recognise South Asian American, it only recognises Asian American. And none of those sources provided states she rejects being Asian American and "solely" identifies as "South Asian American. Also, other sources like here[26] states she is Asian American. Zakaria1978 (talk) 23:34, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

The source he lists says "The 55-year-old senator says she has not grappled with her identity and describes herself simply as "an American"." Other RS describe her as "Black" and a "Woman of Color" which are broader terms for people of mixed ancestry. See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/i-am-who-i-am-kamala-harris-daughter-of-indian-and-jamaican-immigrants-defines-herself-simply-as-american/2019/02/02/0b278536-24b7-11e9-ad53-824486280311_story.html and https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/politics/kamala-harris-vp-biden.html. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stoney1976 (talk • contribs) 23:37, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Zakaria1978, I'm sure Mr. is a sign of respect for people who identify as male, but KidAd doesn't have it stated that they are male. You are assuming that someone who doesn't specify must be male. That is offensive. —valereee (talk) 23:39, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

While I did not personally find the use of "Mr." offensive (I am male, so that may have something to do with it), the honorific can be interpreted as condescending or sarcastic, especially if you are not speaking with someone face-to-face. A good rule of thumb not to use honorifics, preventing any potential miscommunication. We're all equal here anyway. Apart from that, sources clearly reference her as "South Asian-American." Her official Senate page says it! So why belabor the point? KidAd (talk) 23:41, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Asian American is most appropriate here. Getting messed up in South Asian ethnicity is long and complicated. We should follow the US census, none of your sources say she "solely" identifies as "South Asian". Asian Americans are the recognised term by the US government and is most neutral. South Asian is not an ethnicity, we can be Iranic, Indo-Aryan, Mongoloid, and Dravidian. Asian American is the most neutral term, globally and in the US (since Asian American is recognised). Zakaria1978 (talk) 23:44, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

The census categories are entirely irrelevant. A term doesn't have to be recognized by the government to be appropriate. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 23:46, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

You keep saying US census is irrelevant, fine. But you failed to provide any source says she solely identifies herself as solely South Asian American. Most of these sources give her that ethnic distinction. I also explained multiple times above that her use of "South Asian American" was to mark her unique position as being the "first South Asian" in US Senate, putting just Asian will make her after a long line of Asian American senators. She did not say anything in her senate page of being "solely" South Asian as an ethnic term. That is a stretch. She is an Asian American. Zakaria1978 (talk) 23:52, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Zakaria1978, I totally get that, but until Harris definitively corrects her preferred categorization, we have to accept what she has personally said. What she's said is that she is African-American and South Asian-American, that her mother knew she and her sister would be considered Black, and that she is proud of her Indian-American heritage. That's the kind of thing we can use. —valereee (talk) 23:48, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Valereee, again, all of you failed to provide any source says she solely identifies herself as "solely" South Asian American, and rejects Asian American. South Asia is clearly in Asia, and South Asia Americans are Asian Americans. Her senate page uses South Asian American to distinguish herself, since there are many other Asian American senators before her. Again, South Asians are not a single ethnicity. We are very diverse. Asian American is the least offensive language, since the broad term is accepted by the US government, and she, or other Asian American don't reject it. I did not find any source where she rejects her wider Asian American heritage. Zakaria1978 (talk) 23:58, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Zakaria1978, the WP:ONUS is not on us to prove a negative. It is on those who want to include something that isn't in sources. We are sourcing what she says about herself. —valereee (talk) 00:01, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Valereee, I provided the sources above. Both US census and National Post.[27] Again, kindly reread what I mentioned above. Asian American is the least offensive language. Zakaria1978 (talk) 00:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Zakaria1978, the US census is not a reliable source for how Kamala Harris identifies. The National Post -- unless it quotes her directly and more recently -- does not trump what she says about herself. —valereee (talk) 00:06, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Valereee, where does she identify "solely" as South Asian American? And rejects Asian American? I also provided other source. Zakaria1978 (talk) 00:09, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Zakaria1978, again, that's the WP:ONUS. You're asking us to prove a negative; we don't have to do that. —valereee (talk) 00:12, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it matters whether she identifies solely as something or rejects something else. If we go with that logic, we should describe Harris simply as "American." After all, where is the source that states identifies solely as Asian American and rejects American? This is silly. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 00:12, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

As for the contention that you feel only the census values are what the US recognizes, that is not true there are over a dozen for Immigration forms as a counter example, nor is it even an accurate statement for the census since it does allow you to enter other.Gloern (talk) 00:13, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

""Harris identifies as African American" has been edited out of the Article while we were Talking. Charles Juvon (talk) 00:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

We went through this at length recently, and the consensus was "African-American" and "South Asian-American". Many points of view were represented, most of them being rehashed here. If we are now revisiting that consensus, please make that clear. Otherwise, please respect the work of the other editors who put a lot of thought into this issue. Rklahn (talk) 00:12, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

A radical suggestion here from someone from a country with somewhat less of an obsession about giving people racial labels. One of Australia's leading politicians is Penny Wong. The lead of her article says a grand total of this about her ancestry (the preferred word here, rather than race)... "Born in Malaysia to an Australian mother and Malaysian father." This is elaborated on later in the article with "Wong was born in Kota Kinabalu, Malaysia, to Jane (née Chapman), an Australian, and Francis Wong, a Malaysian of Chinese origin." That's it. That's all that's said about her "race". Is there a Wikipedia rule that says an article on an American politician must give an interpretive and obviously highly debatable racial label to that person? Does Wikipedia really have to play the racial label game so strongly? Can we not just write simple facts about her background,and leave the interpretation to others? HiLo48 (talk) 00:17, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

HiLo48, I think that would go with how Harris sees herself, and myself I think the sources support it, but we might be getting into territory where others will be calling OR. —valereee (talk) 00:20, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Why do we even need to describe how someone sees themselves? Even that seems to become a point of contention for a some American politicians with complicated ancestries. Stick to facts. Let readers interpret. HiLo48 (talk) 00:23, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

HiLo48, now you're going too far. :D In the US, how a politician identifies does matter. It would seem strange not to address it at all. Does it need to be in the lead? Maybe not. Is it stupid that this is as important as it is? Yes. —valereee (talk) 00:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

While I think you are trying to be fair to a previous discussion that people currently in this thread might be unaware of, reading that section, it seems to me this current discussion is covering a different aspect completely, there is no repeat between the 2, as the previous one was concerning the duality of her ethnic history and this one is at least mostly concerning the validity of one of the terms being used.Gloern (talk) 00:21, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I like what HiLo48 stated. Lets put something like an immigrant mother from India and an immigrant father from Jamaica. That might be the best. Since she is American above all else. However, I am firm in the evidence, she is an Asian American, the least offensive term. Zakaria1978 (talk) 00:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Kamala Harris IS NOT African American or Black as stated in her bio and needs to be corrected. She is biracial half Jamacian and half East Indian. She affirmed her nationality when sworn into Congress as "Proud to be one of the first Indian American women to be serving in Congress" Now Kamala Harris identifies as Black but that is like Elizabeth Warren identifying as an American Indian. TooterTurtle2003 (talk) 00:40, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

On a second look, I am seeing that the article said "Indian American" for a long time until it was modified yesterday.[28] I have changed it back to "Indian American" since that is how she identifies herself as also mentioned by this recent source. Zakaria1978 (talk) 00:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Race_(human_categorization) makes this discussion even more complicated. Charles Juvon (talk) 01:09, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Again, we are revisiting covered ground. Race is a social construct, imposed by society. Identity is what counts here. That is "African American" and "South Asian American". Clearly. Rklahn (talk) 03:28, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Social constructionism is an ideology and not one that most RSs reflect Anon0098 (talk) 04:34, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

This is a common criticism of social constructionism, but I don't think it's accurate. It's a sociological and information theory line of thought. Regardless, I don't think it changes my main point: We should be seeking identity here, not race or ancestry. Rklahn (talk) 04:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Requested Edit to Early Life (or Personal Life) Section: Religion

The early life section indicates that she grew up Hindu and Christian. This would be better qualified by indicating that Kamala considers herself a Black Baptist now, and referenced the parable of the Good Samaritan on the campaign trail. The baptist affiliation is listed elsewhere on Wikipedia, so we could use any of the three references there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_affiliation_in_the_United_States_Senate

Or use this reference here: https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2020/08/11/five-faith-facts-about-biden-vp-kamala-harris

“Presumptive vice presidential nominee”

There’s really no such thing, but it’s only going to be wrong for about eight days and then we can remove “presumptive,” so I’m not too worried about it. Neutron (talk) 00:16, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I have a similar concern. There is no Democratic Vice Presidential Nominee right now. Thats not Joe Biden decision, its the Democratic National Convention's. Like you, Im willing to let this one slide. Rklahn (talk) 05:03, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

Some information is wrong. She is not a black. Her mother is Indian, her father is Latino. She is not either black nor native American. Sam2000Sam (talk) 00:36, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". See previous discussions on this page. - MrX 🖋 00:42, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

change African American to Jamaican American2601:245:8100:E7F0:CCED:6A92:609C:364B (talk) 01:10, 12 August 2020 (UTC) 2601:245:8100:E7F0:CCED:6A92:609C:364B (talk) 01:10, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done The source cited describes the subject as African-American. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 01:17, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

African American needs to be removed as it is stated on both her parents and husbands pages that she is not African American, but Asian American and Jamaican American. 107.77.195.50 (talk) 01:14, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done The source cited describes the subject as African-American. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 01:17, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Admins

Pinging admins @El C:, @RegentsPark:, @Vanamonde93:, @Doug Weller:, @Bishonen: Could you all please keep an eye on this page. The precise and NPOV terms are South Asian American and Asian American, not Indian American, whose issues are explained in Indian Americans#Terminology. Besides, as I have explained above, when we use the adjective "first," we are looking to apply it to the largest ambit of its use. She is the first Asian American presumptive VP nominee, not just the first South Asian American. Best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:33, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

First Black woman and first Asian-American. —valereee (talk) 01:46, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, but what will you wikilink "Black" to? If it is African American and I don't see any other link, WP:EASTEREGG will compel us to use "African American" instead, no matter what language newspapers use in order to be popular. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:02, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

That is not an Easter egg. "Black" is legitimate, it is both an alternate term for and another word for African American (because the times are a-changing). But wait, User:Fowler&fowler; you didn't call on me, but I adminny too, though often ad minimum. What is this "language newspaper use in order to be popular"? It would be wise of you not to answer that, but to just give it some thought, because as it stands that statement doesn't make a damn bit of sense, and has more than a whiff of...well, it starts with an r. Drmies (talk) 02:06, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

It is an informal term, interleaved later, but not used in the first instance in the lead. There is good reason that the Barak Obama, Martin Luther King Jr., Ralph Bunche, Thurgood Marshall , Carol Moseley Braun pages use African American. Sorry, about not calling on you. I forgot. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:19, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

User:Fowler&fowler, Vanamonde93, sorry, but I wasn't feeling left out or anything--it was that as an admin I was trying to tell F&F that this "newspaper language" thing was not appropriate. Drmies (talk) 13:40, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I almost wonder if (Aiyee) we need a section on her race/identity/ethnicity. I apologize to the entire world for America thinking this is necessary. —valereee (talk) 02:18, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

There is a clear precedent here in the above "first" pages of distinguished African Americans. No need for a section. I submit that doing so, at least at this state, will become a form of devaluation of person on account of her gender, and ultimately of sexism. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler, so want to avoid a race/identity/ethnicity section, but I don't know what you're saying with clear precedent here in the above "first" pages of distinguished African Americans. Can you provide again, sorry. It's a really long discussion. —valereee (talk) 02:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Valereee Sorry, I just realized that you too are an admin. I was tired when I wrote what I wrote. What I meant was the pages: Barak Obama, Martin Luther King Jr., Ralph Bunche, Thurgood Marshall , Carol Moseley Braun use "African American" the first time they refer to the subject's ethnicity in the lead; they might be later using "Black" as well. See also Colin Powell whose parents were Jamaican immigrants. The "no need for a section" remark was added later after I saw your post. I should have signed it separately, but I did not so it appears that it is one post. The precedent is only about "African American." I mean that if the Barak Obama page does not have a separate section about his ethnicity, despite the POV about it promoted in many places, there is no reason to start a new section about KH's ethnicity. It might be seen as a case of double standards, or rather of holding female candidates to a different standard. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:10, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• @Drmies: I rather think Fowler pinged me and the others because we're admins who've dealt with the whole South Asian vs Indian mess before, and of course because he knows all of us also admin politically messy areas...Fowler&fowler I'm happy to keep an eye on this, but Valereee and Drmies' know what's what and have more experience in the AP2 morass than I do. Vanamonde (Talk) 03:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

References

• @Vanamonde93: What is AP2? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:18, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

  @Fowler&fowler, AP2 is "American politics 2"—it refers to the topic area and the associated discretionary sanctions in effect on such pages. More details are listed and linked in the notice at the top of this talk page. czar 04:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your heartfelt apology, valereee, it really means a lot. Can we just finally establish a consensus one way or another? There are like 10 different headings under the talk page about this Anon0098 (talk) 04:42, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Sources seem to be mainly calling her Black and she calls herself Black:"I was born black and I’ll die black and I am proud of it. And I am not going to make any excuses for it, for anybody, because they don't understand.”[29]. She can still be listed as African-American as a category and on lists so far as I'm concerned, I don't think that the fact her ancestry doesn't seem to include American slaves precludes this although I know ADOS says it does. Sources also refer to her as "Indian American" - mainly without the hyphen and of course we do have an article Indian Americans. Doing a search it's a very common term. Doug Weller talk 06:51, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

One need not look any further than https://www.harris.senate.gov/about She calls herself "African-American" and "South Asian-American". Rklahn (talk) 07:03, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Again, I'm requesting the admins to implement the consensus already achieved an earlier section, "Racial categorisation of Kamala Harris," (and already implemented in the FAQ (see its section above) which is to use African American and not Black, and South Asian American and not Indian American, and in the instance of using "first," to use the largest ambit of its use (in this instance "first Asian American" (not "first South Asian American") to be the presumptive nominee for Vice-President of a major party. I'm not asking for their views on these terms. They are welcome to add those to that section above if they so choose. There is pretty much nothing they will find in the sources that has not already been raked there. Best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 07:54, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I too, like Vanamonde93, prefer to leave this to editors more tuned to AP2. But, afaik, it is customary to use African American rather than Black as the primary identifier. Indian American, South Asian American, I'd go with whatever sources predominantly say (the NYT, and this is just one example, uses Indian American ([30]) but not sure if that's uniform across reliable sources. --RegentsPark (comment) 12:03, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Reality overtakes our categories and processes here. It is not surprising that readers, editors, and our very system have a bit of a problem with this intersectionality. It's probably best to let the sources speak for themselves. There are a lot of "African-American" mentions in the sources, and to have that in the lead is not bad. Or, "African-American, descended from..." etc. (What it proves, of course, is that "African-American" is less a racial than a cultural category.) And to cite her, speaking of herself as "black", is justified and I would encourage it--as it happens, "Black" is taking over as the term of choice, and that's fine. (What is unfortunate is that the passage that Doug Weller cited has lowercase "b"; Reuters is a bit conservative, and this is their version of her speaking. The capital is important.) BTW I'm fine with F&F's request, right above this: use Afr-Am and S-A Am. There is consensus for this, it is well-sourced. I myself slightly favor "Black" in the lead, with a capital B, but I don't mind setting my personal things aside to help implement and maintain this consensus. Drmies (talk) 14:46, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Since this page is overwhelmed with dozens of discussions on this same subject, I propose that any future such discussions be answered with "We are describing her as African-American and South Asian-American because the way she describes herself - at her Senate page and elsewhere. Please see Talk:Kamala Harris/FAQ." And move on. -- MelanieN (talk) 14:38, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Locked

Collapsed disruptive posts
Once again democratic edits are prevented by a cabal of politically motivated admins. Unlock the page, let the people of San Francisco edit this page, they know her best. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 36.11.228.41 (talk) 01:43, 12 August 2020 (UTC) Is this how Bernie can still win? 97.117.112.24 (talk) 01:51, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

She is NOT AfricanAmerican 2603:6000:D802:2500:C4F3:22A3:C474:A49A (talk) 01:56, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The source cited describes the subject as African-American. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 01:57, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Someone changed the source. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 01:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I removed the template because no consensus exists to make this edit. TFD (talk) 02:05, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, @The Four Deuces:. I'm still learning etiquette for handling these inane semi-protected edit requests. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 02:07, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Not a problem. I don't understand how so many inexperienced editors know how to set up semi-protected edit requests, but don't know when they should be used. To the IP: when you use the template you alert auto-confirmed editors and administrator to make a requested change. They usually have no knowledge of or interest in the topic and check if there is consensus for the change. But if there was consensus for change, most of the editors here would be able to make it. TFD (talk) 02:15, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Donald Harris

Recommend linking mention of her father to his Wikipedia entry: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Harris_(professor)#:~:text=Donald%20Harris%20(1938%20%E2%80%93%20Current),from%20University%20of%20California%2C%20Berkeley. JackaIope (talk) 01:56, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

He is linked in the infobox. – Teratix ₵ 02:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

reversion

Just reverted a fairly major edit which among a bunch of capitalization changes included a fairly major content change. Let's discuss before reverting back. —valereee (talk) 02:16, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I've fixed those capitalization issues to conform with MOS:JOBTITLES more than once today. Editors have been reverting changes to before my capitalization edits, making me go through the exercise all over again. Thanks for pointing that out here. Whatever content changes are discussed here, please let's try to keep the MOS edits. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 02:19, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

Change “first African American” to “Jamaican American”. She is not African American because her father is from Jamaica and her mother is Indian. There is no Africa there. 2600:1004:B0A0:8FCD:E0E8:18CB:6E56:BC01 (talk) 02:47, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Please research where the ancestors of the dark skinned people in Jamaica came from. HiLo48 (talk) 02:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with the original poster. If we go by HiLo48's logic, we should change every article that describes Jamaican Americans to African Americans. While they may be descendants of Africans, it also removes the specificity of the origin of the person. Jamaican-American is more descriptive and more accurate. Additionally, her mother is Indian born, not Asian. – Brenr 03:36, August 12, 2020 (UTC)

We are describing her as African-American and South Asian-American because the way she describes herself - at her Senate page and elsewhere. Please see Talk:Kamala Harris/FAQ. -- MelanieN (talk) 03:41, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

Kamala Harris is not African American. Her father is from Jamaica and her mother is from India. She should either be referred to as black, Jamaican American, or Indian American. 97.119.2.54 (talk) 03:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done RS in the article state that she is African-American. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 03:05, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Racial description in opening paragraph.

Is it accurate to say "She is the first African American and first Asian American to be chosen as the running mate of a major party's presidential candidate" when "African American" connotes a descendent of enslaved people living in the U.S.? Her African ancestry is through Jamaica, not the US, so it might be more accurate to say "She is the first black American and first Asian American to be chosen as the running mate of a major party's presidential candidate." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Biasbalancer1 (talk • contribs) 03:22, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The Jamaican part is accurate, but her mother is Indian. She is not Asian. – Brenr 03:27, August 12, 2020 (UTC) 03:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

She self-identifies as African-American and reliable sources frequently describe her with those words. Africans were enslaved in Jamaica as well, and Jamaica is an island near both North America and South America. Her mother was born in India, and India is indisputably part of Asia. So the statement that she is not Asian in her ancestry is incorrect. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:37, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Just because she chooses to identify as African-American does not make it factual. Her heritage comes from her parents and can never change in her lifetime - you don't have the ability to change your descent at will. By your logic, there's only one more distinction before she's identified as a Homo sapien. – Brenr 03:48, August 12, 2020 (UTC)

Brenr, the function of an article talk page is to discuss how to improve an article based on how the topic is described in reliable sources. In the case of a biography of a living person, we also consider self-identification. We pay no attention to the personal opinions of individual editors. Unless you can point to specific reliable sources, then please drop the subject and move on. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

Her heritage is Jamaican and Indian so it would be accurate to say she is the first Jamaican American not African American. PeaceLovePositivity (talk) 03:29, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done See above and the sources cited. Many, indeed most Jamaican Americans have African heritage and are thus also African American. Neutrality^talk 03:32, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Kamala's Descent Indisputable

Regardless of how many articles exist claiming she is African, it does not change the reality that she is born to an Indian-born, Indian-American mother and a Jamaican-born, Jamaican-American father. We should ensure factual information is on the article, not information from inaccurate sources. – Brenr 03:30, August 12, 2020 (UTC)

We are describing her as African-American and South Asian-American because the way she describes herself - at her Senate page and elsewhere. Please see Talk:Kamala Harris/FAQ. -- MelanieN (talk) 03:39, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Dark skinned people in Jamaica have pretty much the same ancestry as those you would presumably call African American. HiLo48 (talk) 03:42, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Brenr, the vast majority of Jamaicans, including her father, are of African ancestry, and African people were enslaved in Jamaica. Her ancestry is both African and Indian (Asian). Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:43, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

There was a similar discussion about Barack Obama. Neither politician is descended from African Americans and neither grew up in African American communities. Neither is more than half African ancestry. Yet that is how they are described in reliable sources. But we don't carry out synthesis and determine who is or is not African-American but defer to sources. TFD (talk) 04:35, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The Four Deuces, you are incorrect about her being raised in African-American communities. She was born in heavily African-American Oakland, California and raised largely in adjoining Berkeley, California, which has several heavily African-American neighborhoods. She lived in one such neighborhood, which is why she was bussed for integration. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:29, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

As for descent from "African-Americans", Jamaica is an island part of the Americas, where African people were enslaved. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:34, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

You are correct, Cullen328. I agree with The Four Deuces's overall point though; as Wikipedia editors, we cannot apply our own standard regarding the fraught, unresolved question on who should be considered under the "African-American" label. We must defer to reliable sources. RedHotPear (talk) 05:38, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Cullen328, Harris childhood neighborhood, according to Berkeley historian Steven Finacom, was “an integrated community with families of various races, both middle class and poorer residents, and both renters and homeowners.”[31] When she was 12, her family moved to Westmount, Quebec, which had a negligible black population. As is well known she went to an integrated primary school, before going to Westmount High School. TFD (talk) 17:05, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Descent and ancestry should not be the focus here. Identity should be. "African-American" and "South Asian-American" should be lead. Where relevant and citable, of course include descent and/or ancestry. Rklahn (talk) 05:31, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I have started RfCs below so that we don't have to discuss this in a dozen different sections. - MrX 🖋 12:14, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Extended protection edit request on 12 August 2020

We have drifted from the identity consensus. In the first paragraph, please change "Asian American" to "South Asian–American". Rklahn (talk) 06:02, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

To editor Rklahn:  Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. The senator is indeed South Asian American. Since they are a subcategory of Asian Americans, we should not change the lead. It is important to note that she is the first Asian American to be chosen as the running mate of a major party's presidential candidate. Not just the first South Asian American, and not just the first Asian American woman, she is the "first Asian American" to be so chosen and so honored. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 07:30, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

@Rklahn: The ambit has expanded. She is the first South Asian American in the Senate, but we are now talking about presumptive VP nominee. She is more than just the first SA-A, she is in fact the first Asian American (a larger category). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:15, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

P.I. Ellsworth There was consensus around identity on 10 August 2020 @ 14:34 (UTC) that lasted until 12 August 2020 @ 01:06 (UTC). The end of this consensus was driven, largely by Joe Biden's announcement that Sen. Harris will be nominated as the Democratic VP. The consensus should be treated as the status quo in the current discussion revisiting the identity consensus. And thats exactly what the current discussion does. It disrupts a thoughtfull and well discussed consensus. Rklahn (talk) 11:05, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I support the current lead (first African American and the first Asian American). This has been discussed and debated ad nauseum in multiple sections of this talk page, so feel free to start an RfC if you think it should be changed. - MrX 🖋 11:30, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I may. I think the change of the consensus was disruptive. Thanks. Rklahn (talk) 11:42, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE. - MrX 🖋 11:46, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

True, but this time around, the consensus was developed recently and was run rough shot over. It's a disruptive rehashing of points gone over already. It has no respect for the hard work of editors that spent a lot of time and effort sorting this out. Rklahn (talk) 14:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Hopefully, Rklahn, you do see the the fact that nobody is arguing that Senator Harris is not South Asian American. The argument for using "Asian American" in the lead has to do with the largest group or groups to which the senator belongs. Since the senator is South Asian American, then there is no question that she is the first South Asian American to be chosen as the running mate of a major party's presidential candidate. She is also the first South Asian American woman to be chosen as the running mate of a major party's presidential candidate. No question. However, the largest group to which the senator belongs in this context is "Asian Americans". Since there have been no other Asian Americans who have ever been chosen as the running mate of a major party's presidential candidate, then wouldn't you agree that the senator is the first Asian American to be chosen as the running mate of a major party's presidential candidate? P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 13:18, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Im not entirely sure this is a universally held view in the current discussion, but your point there remains valid. I do not think the Senator identifies as "Asian American", rather we should not be searching for some category beyond "South Asian American", because thats what her identify is. Rklahn (talk) 14:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it matters whether or not the senator "identifies" as any certain ancestral category. And I think it matters most that it causes so much contention among really good editors of this encyclopedia. So the entire thought that she is the very first whomever to receive the honor of being asked to run for the second highest office in the US should be stripped altogether from the lead. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 22:28, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Failure of protection policy

Please help me understand what went wrong. Wikipedia's article protection policy directs: Extended confirmed protection should not be used as a preemptive measure against disruption that has not yet occurred. Yet when we hover over the blue padlock of a BLP having extended confirmed protection, a balloon pops up declaring, This article is extended-protected until [date and time] to promote compliance with the policy on biographies of living persons.

I take it, then, that extended confirmed protection can be used as a preemptive measure against further disruption in a BLP that has experienced it in the recent past—such as Kamala Harris.

If so, I must ask: why wasn't it?

On 11 Aug 2020, this BLP was vandalized in a grossly abusive manner. While the edit remained online for just two minutes, and the user was indefinitely blocked two minutes later, the damage was done, as shown by this tweet from a young woman who called it "absolutely unacceptable" and who attached a screenshot of her Google search showing the vulgar vandalism intact.

This shameful episode could have been easily avoided. At the time of his violation, the vandal was technically an autoconfirmed user, since his account was more than 4 days old and had made at least 10 edits. However, his contributions suggest that immediately prior to trashing, he gamed the system by making nine meaningless edits to his user page in order to raise his total edits past 10, thus permitting him to vandalize this BLP, which required only autoconfirmed access despite its history of disruption.

Extended confirmed protection could have prevented User:Eee302 from making the edit that so pleased him, he was willing to sacrifice his account. And it would not have required a soothsayer to anticipate the need for increased protection. After all, this BLP's huge spike in pageviews during the high-profile event of 11 Aug 2020 was readily predictable, given Harris's long standing as a frontrunner among Biden's VP candidates.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken. But if my understanding of policy is on the mark, then Wikipedia administrators blew it. Big time. NedFausa (talk) 08:30, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• We don't preemptively protect articles. We will very rarely preemptively protect non-article pages. For example, there have been times where we have changed the main logo to celebrate a special event, and in these cases the image will generally be protected before going live.

As a matter of accountability, if someone asks "why did you protect that article", you should be able to respond "because of that disruption", and merely having the expectation of future disruption is not sufficient. As a matter of principle, the intention of Wikipedia is to be as open as possible. Protection cuts off the contributions of many well meaning people, normally only because of a few bad actors, and so it is only done begrudgingly and out of necessity. That unfortunately means there will sometimes be egregious and distasteful vandalism; however, this is the price of doing absolutely everything we can to be as open as possible, and we cannot do away with that principle without doing away with what Wikipedia is. GMG^talk 11:07, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The article was originally semi-protected. Earlier today an administrator changed it to extended confirmed protected. I assume that was because problem edits by autoconfirmed users made it necessary. As far as moving the article, that is now protected so that only administrators can do it. -- MelanieN (talk) 14:29, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Should Kamala Harris be described as 'South Asian-American' or 'Asian-American' in the lead?

Should Kamala Harris be described as 'South Asian-American' or 'Asian-American' in the lead? - MrX 🖋 11:54, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

---

• Looks like she identifies with the South label [32]. RS are mixed, but at a glance it looks like the majority use "South Asian American"[33][34][35][36]. So probably "South Asian American". ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• Per the same sources I posted below (Britannica, NYT), I'm not sure why we just wouldn't say Indian. I struggle to imagine where we would identify someone as "North American" rather than Canadian, or "Eastern European" instead of French. I mean, she's not Laotian or Bhutanese. So I'm not sure why we would prefer the more vague term that introduces more ambiguity than is necessary. GMG^talk 12:43, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• "Asian-American" but only if as worded.

Both terms have previously garnered a somewhat limited consensus on this talk page at different times recently with a clear preference for either over alternatives. I notice that, currently, the lede inconsistently adopts usage contradicting that later in the WP:LEAD section and in the 2010 election section, within three otherwise verbatim sentences.

In that textual context—of vice-presidential firsts—but never otherwise, I'm happy for us to go with the attributive (hyphenated) form "Asian American"—the lede (if not lead) status quo—as the broadest term used by the reliable sources to describe Harris's ancestral connection to that continent.

I doubt WP:BLP rules on self-identity wholly apply here. As it stands, the article never either purports to describe her self-identified 'race' ("black"/"African-American" ?/"Indo-American"??), nor ethnic origin (Afro-Jamaican/Tamil), within the lead section, let alone lede (perhaps we should; that's a whole 'nother RFC). We, merely, state where she is on chronological lists in reliable sources that describe vice presidential nominees as reasonably somehow belonging to various groups based loosely on ancestral origins.

In an academic or encyclopedic (usually any non-colloquial) register (sociolinguistics) of either Commonwealth or American English varieties, the definition of "Asian Americans" subsumes any sense of "South Asian Americans", which, as an aside, itself subsumes any sense of "Indo-" or "Indian Americans" (cf. the ambiguous "American Indian").

On the basis of Occum's Razor and the bizarre brevity deficit of listing both (or all three), I suggest we replicate the lede wording (previously proposed on this talk page and then implemented) to both later paragraphs.

Llew Mawr (talk) 12:43, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• (Summoned by bot) Neither IMO, since she is of mixed "Tamil and Afro-Jamaican descent", why not simply say that more specific descriptor and not spend time deciding which geographical/ethnic labels fit best.Pincrete (talk) 12:45, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• She's from California. I don't really see why she can't just be a "Californian American". I found this RFC by looking at the talk page after seeing she is ".. the first South Asian woman..." without even mentioning that she's American. I think that is wrong. If her ethnic ancestry is important, it appears that South Asian American or Tamil American is the most precise, as her mother's Tamil origins are well sourced, and neither parent is identified as having ancestors from other parts of Asia. --Scott Davis ^Talk 13:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• If it must be mentioned, then Asian American is the largest group to which the senator belongs in this context, and is the most concise description that is still correct. Leads are meant to be more concise than precise. Since there have never been any other Asian Americans to be chosen as the running mate of a major party's presidential candidate, then it is most correct and concise to say that the senator is the first Asian American to be so honored. I am leaning toward not mentioning her ancestral categories at all in the lead. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 13:37, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• I believe we should not refer to her race or ethnicity in the lead at all. We can discuss her descent in the section on her early life. If we feel we must categorize her in the lead, we need to use what she calls herself, which is African-American and South Asian-American. —valereee (talk) 14:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
  • I have made this same point elsewhere, and absolutely agree. Rklahn (talk) 14:56, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• To make it clear, we are not talking about the lead SENTENCE, right? We are talking about later in the lead, where she is described as the "first" of a particular group to do something. It has been decided, over and over at this page, to use "South Asian-American" because that is how she describes herself, for example on her Senate page. Can we please stop rehashing this? -- MelanieN (talk) 14:24, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with MelanieN and Valereee and Rklahn that this is the consensus, and there is no reason to keep rehashing it. She is an American lawyer and politician, but she is the second African-American woman and the first South Asian-American to serve in the US Senate; the California Department of Justice, similarly, uses "South Asian-American" when describing her barrier-breaking accomplishments as District Attorney of SF and the 32nd AG of California. As for the presumptive VP nominee, she is both the first African American woman and the first Asian American (a super-category of South Asian American) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:46, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• • Ive also tried to make this point as well, and also wholeheartedly agree with it. I also agree with Fowler&fowler comments on this as well. Rklahn (talk) 15:03, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I just noticed that someone has changed "first South Asian American" in the US Senate to "first Asian American." That is incorrect, as she is the eighth Asian-American (jointly with Tammy Duckworth). Asian American applies only to first presumptive VP nominee. Please correct this. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:30, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Already fixed by User:Valereee. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:15, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I corrected and warned the editor, who is experienced enough to have known better. —valereee (talk) 16:19, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• Echoing Paine Ellsworth on using the largest group when it comes to "firsts." She should be described as the first Asian American to be selected as the vice presidential running mate of a major party's nominee, and the first South Asian American to serve in the United States Senate. RedHotPear (talk) 17:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• Indian American but not "South Asian American", given consistency and her own self-identification.

Kamala Harris in her own book mentions her husband Douglas Emhoff and writes:

Doug and I were married on Friday, August 22, 2014, in an intimate ceremony with the people we loved. Maya officiated; Meena read from Maya Angelou. In keeping with our respective Indian and Jewish heritage, I put a flower garland around Doug's neck..."[37]

She is very clear about her "Indian" heritage, so why we shouldn't be? In the multiple interviews of Kamala Harris[38][39] she is absolutely clear about her self-identification as "Indian-American". Reliable sources refer to her as "Indian American" more than hundreds of times than "South Asian American". Unless we are seriously questioning the reliability of CNN[40], Washington Post[41], Politico[42], LA Times[43] US News,[44] ABC News,[45] The Hill,[46] and thousands of other WP:RS, which also identify her as "Indian American" but not "South Asian American", I clearly don't see a single reason to pick "South Asian" (which can also mean Pakistani, Afghanistani, Bangladeshi) than more specific and much more common term "Indian". There is no need for this page to be different than the rest of the Wikipedia or the world. SignificantPBD (talk) 17:40, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• Most of the sources say Indian American in comparison to South Asian American. The article since 2017 used the term "Indian American"[47] until it was changed this month. Like I said above too, Indian American should be our choice over South Asian American because we need to be more specific about her ancestry. Her mother is from India, and we haven't seen if her close relatives come from any other region from South Asia. BBC's recent article about her also discusses that she has identified her Indian ancestry.[48] Though I am not opposed to using "Asian American", I especially prefer it when it is completely justifiable for the sentences such as "first Asian American to be chosen as the running mate of a major party's presidential candidate", but lede needs to be specific about her Indian ancestry in order to avoid any confusion. Zakaria1978 (talk) 04:11, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Should Kamala Harris be described as 'African American' in the lead?

Should Kamala Harris be described as 'African American' in the lead? - MrX 🖋 11:56, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

---

• Yes - Sources routinely describe her as African American or black (which I'm equally fine with as an alternative). Her role as Biden's running mate makes her racial identity a first, and a highly noteworthy aspect. - MrX 🖋 12:11, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• It looks like NYT goes with black and Britannica goes with African American. I personally prefer black, since African American is most often just a euphemism for black. Nobody's gonna really pretend we'd be having this discussion about...like...an Arab dude from Morocco. But I'm not going to argue over splitting hairs there. Either one effectively communicates the information. GMG^talk 12:34, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• (Summoned by bot) No IMO, since she is of mixed "Tamil and Afro-Jamaican descent", why not simply say that more specific descriptor and not spend time deciding which geographical/ethnic labels fit best, or if we must, say "black". I give the same answer to the other RfC above.Pincrete (talk) 12:47, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

This may be technically true, it looks like the spread of sources that use this this phrasing is pretty daggum sparse. GMG^talk 12:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• Yes with tiny caveats, per WP:RS, WP:BLP and the multiply previously agreed talk page consensus.

As to whether to substitute the less American-English-specific "black", I'm not sure it matters much and WP:MoS doesn't address our apropos style usage generally.

However, strictly, in the context of vice-presidential firsts, we should use whichever of the two terms a plurality of the reliable sources on the topic of VP nominees use, or failing that, whichever is more common in written registers of English to describe an American who would self-identify colloquially as 'coloured'/'black'.

Whereas, strictly, per WP:BLP, elsewhere in this and other articles, especially when providing a description of the senator, whichever term more (or a plurality) of reliable sources have reported Harris use to describe herself.

Llew Mawr (talk) 12:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• She's from California. Photos do not look "black", lots of Californians have brown skin in summer, regardless of their ethnic background. This question is only derived from her father's background, as her mother was Tamil Indian. Her father Donald J. Harris was born in Jamaica and is described in that article as British Jamaican not "African American" (or even just African). That article also says he is descended from Hamilton Brown who is described as Northern Irish, so perhaps we should also call her Irish American. As a non-American, I had not really heard of her until she became lead candidate for vice-president, so I'd like to read more about her, and less about the ancestors of her paternal grandparents. Describe her as first/second X to do Y when sources say that, but otherwise, describe her as American or Californian. --Scott Davis ^Talkw 13:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree, and have good news for you as what you are describing is exactly and wholly the article's status quo (with no ethnic descriptions outside of "first X" and no description of her family's origins outside of a minor factual note in the relevant section). Llew Mawr (talk) 13:58, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• I believe we should not refer to her race or ethnicity in the lead at all. We can discuss her descent in the section on her early life. If we feel we must categorize her in the lead, we need to use what she calls herself, which is African-American and South Asian-American. —valereee (talk) 14:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
  • We fairly regularly refer to race/ethnicity in the lead when someone is a "first" of some note: Barack Obama, Jackie Robinson, Charles Q. Brown Jr.. GMG^talk 14:14, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

    GreenMeansGo, yes, I know. In each of those cases, we had pretty clear agreement on what the heck the person was generally to be called. Giving Harris a racial categorization is a lot more nuanced. It's like...isTiger Woods the winningest-ever Cablinasian golfer? Well, no, not according to the lead of our article about him. We deal with that later, in the section about his early life. JMO. —valereee (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

    Er...not trying to argue other stuff exists. :) —valereee (talk) 15:44, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

    • • • I mean, yes. It is an OTHERSTUFF argument. But at some level, OTHERSTUFF arguments are slightly more valid when you're talking about high profile FAs. GMG^talk 15:51, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

          GreenMeansGo, I meant it as an example of how we've handled similar situations, just as I'm sure you meant Obama, Robinson, Brown as examples, not "reasons why we have to do it here! Because look at this other article!" When in fact sometimes it's the other article that needs correcting. I once pissed off someone at Mark Dice because they were arguing that since it was in Kyle Kulinski, Dice should be treated the same, and I was just showing my/WP's political bias. By the time the complainer had started making a YouTube video exposing Wikipedia's bias, I'd corrected Kyle Kulinski. They accused me of "whitewashing" Kyle Kulinski to hide WP's bias. :D —valereee (talk) 16:12, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

          • Maybe we're getting a bit off in the weeds. Obviously I agree that OTHERSTUFF is a non-argument when we're comparing just some rando article. But VA/FAs kindof set the standard, and they kindof dispense with the reasons that OTHERSTUFF is normally a non-argument. GMG^talk 16:22, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• In the lead, yes, but not in the lead SENTENCE. We already have African-American and South Asian-America in the lead in several places where she was the "first" at something. That's where it belongs. The lead sentence should just say "American". -- MelanieN (talk) 14:19, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• Agree again with Valereee and MelanieN Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:32, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• Yes, as I have mentioned multiple times on this talk page, it is her most notable identity as reflected in reliable sources. We must defer to reliable sources and not construct our own standards as to who the "African-American" label should apply to. Also emphasizing MelanieN's point that we are not talking about the lead sentence, which should just use "American," as is the norm. RedHotPear (talk) 17:34, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• Yes Because it's significant and how she is described in reliable sources. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• NO At best - she's Biracial. Her mother is from Tamil, her father's Jamaican. People from Tamil-Nadu aren't African, they're Indian. not everyone from Jamaica is black either. There are Chinese Jamaicans and white or very light completed Jamaicans (Guy Harvey for one!) so unless with have a reliable source that says it, we can't say it either.W.K.W.W.K...^{Toss a coin to the witcher, ye valley of plenty} 18:46, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• "unless with have a reliable source that says it, we can't say it" - Are you not aware that a huge number of reliable sources, over a long period of time, describe her as African American, and that other sources make clear that her father is Afro-Jamaican? Guy Harvey is not really relevant here. Neutrality^talk 20:10, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Neutrality Actually Guy Harvey was used as an example to show that not all Jamaicans are African Americans. Speaking of, in this article, her father is described as "British Jamaican" not "African American", so yes she can be called Bi-racial and rightfully so. By the way, you've made the same argument three times on this RFC, three people have disagreed, I realize because I'm one of the three people, I can't say it's consensus, and I won't, but if three people say I'm wrong, there may be something to it, just saying! W.K.W.W.K...^{Toss a coin to the witcher, ye valley of plenty} 00:53, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

• Yes - A multitude of reliable sources, over a long period of time, describe her as such, and it is historically significant; she is only the second African-American woman to ever serve in the Senate, so a mention in the lead section (not the first sentence) is warranted. Neutrality^talk 20:10, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

See, for example:

• Reuters (2020): "Senator Kamala Harris, one of the chamber’s two African-American Democrats..."
• Associated Press (2019): "Harris would be the first woman to hold the presidency and the second African-American"
• Wall Street Journal: "California Sen. Kamala Harris said Monday she will seek the Democratic nomination for president, launching a campaign to become the nation’s first woman and second African-American to win the White House."
• LA Times (2016): "Harris — simultaneously the first woman and African American to be elected to the statewide post"
• The Guardian (2019): "Harris and Cory Booker, two African American senators"
• The Times of London (2020): "The leading African-American contender for the vice-presidential slot is Kamala Harris"
• NBC News: "Kamala Harris was elected California’s first African American and Asian American Attorney General in 2010."

--Neutrality^talk 21:05, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• NO. As per Wikipedia's own entry on Jamaicans, Jamaica consists of people from various different background, not only African. Those who are saying Kamala's father is African just because he's from Jamaica and is black, frankly, are edging the line into racism similar to assuming that all asians are Chinese... In fact, the editors of the article have provided no concrete evidence to suggest Donald Harris' ancestry is of African heritage at all. In fact, Donald Harris' mother (Beryl Finnegan) was British, and his father has no information publicly available whatsoever. It is therefore important, as an encyclopedia, that Wikipedia only present information which is factually citable. And the idea that Kamala is African-American is wholly unverifiable. It is entirely possible that Donald Harris' father also came from India. There is absolutely no way of knowing without somebody digging up birth certificates or other official records, and providing them. Further, those defending the choice of naming her African-American are only saying "reliable sources". Not everybody agrees on what a reliable source is. Nobody has even mentioned which "reliable sources" are saying this to provide greater context or to achieve a better informed consensus. I have seen the sources which Wikipedia refers to as "reliable", and in many cases, these sources have long histories of posting false information, and of being prosecuted over it. The term "reliable sources" without backing it up, has to be the most ambiguous argument ever, and achieves nothing to resolve a dispute. Grez868 (talk) 20:22, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• Please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia policy before commenting. It is disruptive to make outlandish "Birther" style claims ("no way of knowing without somebody digging up birth certificates"). It is disruptive to say that we should disregard reliable sources, or to suggest that there is no such thing as a reliable source. And it is disruptive to claim that well-established reliable sources are "fake news" (I assume you are referring to the variety of sources that have explicitly referred to Harris as African American, including Reuters, the Associated Press, the Wall Street Journal). Your bizarre claim that these sources have been "prosecuted" over "posting false information" is similarly disruptive. This kind of activities can be sanctionable. Please consider this a clear warning. Neutrality^talk 20:51, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• No' Because of her complex heritage. I would accept African-American despite her Jamaican heritage but she is biracial. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:34, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

  Emir of Wikipedia, my understanding of this RfC, given the other RfC, is that they are not mutually exclusive. Endorsing this RfC doesn't rule out endorsing the other one too. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

  They don't need to be in the lede. Biracial is used by RSs [49]. -- Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:01, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

  I think there already was clear consensus before these RFCs and my !vote is still for the status quo. But, FWIW, whereas American sources like to use "African-American", I notice The Times of London also takes a different, rather concise take: "The daughter of a Jamaican father and an Indian mother, she makes history as the first non-white woman on a presidential ticket."[50] Llew Mawr (talk) 21:28, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

  This comment inaccurately presupposes that one cannot be African-American, of Jamaican heritage, and biracial. Obviously, there are many people who are all three of those things. Neutrality^talk 21:05, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• NO - She should be described as a "Women of Color" OR "Black with South Asian (or Indian) ancestry." Kamala's father is Jamaican and her mother is from India. BOTH sides of her family's ancestry should be represented in any description. In academe (and major media outlets), she would be considered a "Woman of Color" and/or described as biracial (see links at end). If she is referred to as "Black" the other side of her ancestry should be acknowledged too, as in "Black AND of Indian (or South Asian) descent. Again, BOTH sides should be recognized. Examples: "A former rival for the Democratic presidential nomination, she will be the first woman of color to be nominated for national office by a major political party." on https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/politics/kamala-harris-vp-biden.html. "So when Joe Biden named Harris on Tuesday as his running mate — making her the first Black woman on a major party's presidential ticket — Cochran wasn't just struck by the history. It represented a full-circle moment for Black women, who for generations have fought for their voices to be heard and political aspirations recognized...Harris' selection is historic in many senses. It also marks the first time a person of Asian descent is on the presidential ticket. Born to a Jamaican father and Indian mother, she often speaks of her deep bond with her late mother, whom she has called her single biggest influence" on https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/08/12/us/politics/ap-us-election-2020-harris-black-voters.html. "Still, I could have ill imagined that one day an African-American man would become the president or that a woman of Jamaican and Indian descent would be a candidate for the vice presidency" and "A woman of color will be on a major-party presidential ticket for the first time: Presumptive Democratic nominee Joe Biden announced Sen. Kamala D. Harris (D-Calif.) as his vice-presidential pick Tuesday" on https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/08/11/women-of-color-representation-government/?arc404=true . "Kamala Harris becomes first woman of color to run for vice president on a major party ticket" on CBS News this morning (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBjNxAxW79Q).Stoney1976 (talk) 03:35, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

Change "Barr stuttered, unable to answer her question. " to "Barr replied "Yeah, but I'm trying to grapple with the word 'suggest'. I mean, there have been discussions of matters out there that they have not asked me to open an investigation, but..." Harris interrupted, "Perhaps they've suggested?" Barr replied, "I dunno. I wouldn't say 'suggest'" "Hinted?" Harris asked. "I dunno." "Inferred? You don't know. Okay."

Sources: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/01/attorney-general-william-barr-i-dont-know-if-trump-suggested-that-the-doj-open-inquiry.html https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/03/kamala-harris-barr-trump-1301502 Stemy7 (talk) 13:24, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done, with some modifications. The two paragraphs on Barr's testimony need to be rewritten in a more encyclopedic style. - MrX 🖋 13:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

Change: In the aftermath of her questioning, President Trump reportedly called Harris "nasty".

to: Following her questioning of AG Barr, President Trump said that Harris was "probably very nasty" to AG Barr during her questioning.

Source is the same, but this represents a more accurate and contextual quote. If additional sources are needed: https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/441733-trump-accuses-harris-of-being-very-nasty-to-barr-looking-for Stemy7 (talk) 13:32, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I took it out entirely. It's not noteworthy. - MrX 🖋 13:50, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Agree with removing it. This is not only not noteworthy, it's not even newsworthy. "Trump called a woman nasty" seems to happen several times a week. -- MelanieN (talk) 14:16, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Edit Request: LGBTQ rights

I propose elevating this section to a higher level, moving it below "Consumer protection" for alphabetical order and dividing it under the headings "Opposing Prop 8" and "Michelle-Lael B. Norsworthy v. Jeffrey Beard et. al." Then we can move the content which YuvalNehemia had added to the "Political positions" section to this article before the last sentence. The revised paragraph will read

In February 2014, Michelle-Lael Norsworthy, a transgender woman incarcerated at California's Mule Creek State Prison, filed a federal lawsuit based on the state's failure to provide her with what she argued was medically necessary sex reassignment surgery (SRS). In April 2015, a federal judge ordered the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation (CDCR) to provide Norsworthy with SRS, finding that prison officials had been "deliberately indifferent to her serious medical need." Harris, representing CDCR, challenged the order in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. She argued that "any “disappointment” Ms. Norsworthy might feel at the denial could be assuaged with psychotherapy", "Norsworthy has been receiving hormone therapy for her gender dysphoria since 2000 and continues to receive hormone therapy and other forms of treatment", and "there is no evidence that Norsworthy is in serious, immediate physical or emotional danger." Harris later claimed that "it was their policy", and that she "got them to change the policy". In August 2015, while the state's appeal was pending, Norsworthy was released on parole, obviating the state's duty to provide her with inmate medical care and rendering the case moot.

Typeprint (talk) 14:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

References

 Done - MrX 🖋 17:14, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

Please add this information to here wikipedia bio. This is not opinion, it is fact

GovTrack US rates Harris as the most liberal Senator in the Senate. She is not a moderate.

1. 90 0.16 Sen. Chris Van Hollen [D-MD]
2. 91 0.15 Sen. Richard Durbin [D-IL]
3. 92 0.14 Sen. Amy Klobuchar [D-MN]
4. 93 0.12 Sen. Richard Blumenthal [D-CT]
5. 94 0.10 Sen. Edward “Ed” Markey [D-MA]
6. 95 0.09 Sen. Mazie Hirono [D-HI]
7. 96 0.07 Sen. Cory Booker [D-NJ]
8. 97 0.07 Sen. Jeff Merkley [D-OR]
9. 98 0.03 Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand [D-NY]
10. 99 0.02 Sen. Bernard “Bernie” Sanders [I-VT]
11. 100 0.00 Sen. Kamala Harris [D-CA] 2600:1702:3B30:1CC0:B1ED:CFDA:B8A3:85E8 (talk) 15:35, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

No? They apparently rank her to the right of Sanders, Merkley and Gillibrand. GMG^talk 15:41, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I just became aware of this website about 10 minutes ago so I know nothing about it, but this list appears to be from their "Ideology Score" which does give Harris a 0.00 in 2019 ([51], scroll down) however it notes "An ideology score is not computed for Members of Congress who introduced fewer than 10 bills or who have a low leadership score, as there is usually not enough data in these cases to compute reliable statistics," but nonetheless provides a score for all 100 senators. On their profile on Harris (also restricted to 2019, [52]) it says "Ranked most liberal compared to All Senators" (emphasis in original), though that description is clearly automatically generated from the site's underlying data. I would suggest this is not sufficiently reliable to include, especially not without attribution. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

@GreenMeansGo: the 2018 Ideology Score ranked her above (more conservative than) Merkley, Sanders, and Gillibrand, maybe that's what you're thinking of. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:56, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: I was just referring to the main page for her. So at the very least it seems the site is not entirely internally consistent. GMG^talk 16:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

African American?

Wikipedia is not a forum for discussing editors' personal opinions on who is allowed to identify with any particular racial or ethnic descriptor. Talk pages are for constructive discussion about improving Wikipedia articles: participate in the request for comments or don't, but this discussion is closed. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:16, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

She was born to a foreigner from India and a Foreigner from Jamaica. How does this combination make her an African American??????????????????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.104.90.225 (talk) 15:46, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

You've never spent much time in Jamaica have you? GMG^talk 15:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

So Jamaica is part of Africa? I have been to Jamaica and absolutely none of the Jamaicans I met called themselves African Jamaicans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.104.90.225 (talk) 15:58, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

In any event the source [53] says the first Black and South Asian American woman to run on a major political party's presidential ticket. so we should follow the source and say Black not African-American. Umimmak (talk) 16:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

And yet the British and the Spanish showed up and then all these African people were there. GMG^talk 16:03, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Please participate in the section above, RfC: Should Kamala Harris be described as 'African American' in the lead?, where this is already being discussed. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

How about first Jamaican black woman clear and precise and does not offend the whole Island of Jamaica. As the are not African Jamaicans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.104.90.225 (talk) 16:17, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

IF it said first Jamaican or first female black woman it would be more accurate. Jamaicans don't call themselves African Jamaicans EVER.

Afro-Jamaicans GMG^talk 16:13, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

For easier understandability, I'd make these small edits:

Change: When she was 12, Harris and her sister moved with their mother to Montreal, Canada, where their mother had accepted a research position at Jewish General Hospital and teaching at McGill University.[20] She attended Westmount High School in Westmount, Quebec, graduating in 1981.[21]

To: When she was 12, Harris and her sister moved with their mother to Montreal, Canada, where their mother had accepted a research position at Jewish General Hospital and a teaching position at McGill University.[20] Kamala attended Westmount High School in Westmount, Quebec, graduating in 1981.[21] Caulds (talk) 16:21, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done, sensible. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:24, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

I would like to request that the terms African-American be removed from this page. Kamala herself only identifies as an American. Jamaican-Americans do not consider themselves African-American. https://theracecardproject.com/caribbean-americans-african-americans/ https://theracecardproject.com/caribbean-americans-african-americans/. Most African-Americans (including myself) consider an African-American, aN AMERICAN DESCENDANT OF SLAVES. ADOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Descendants_of_Slavery. It is not accurate to describe Kamala Harris as African-American. She is American. She is Caribbean American. She is a Jamaican-American. She is not the first African-American female as referenced. She is the first Black, but not African-American. It is a fine distinction that perhaps only African-Americans care about but it should be corrected.

There is only one article stating that Kamala attended black church as a youth. Her sister does not confirm this assertion. Her mother is Indian. Why would she attend black church with her children and not just her temple? This assertion should also be removed. Coffee4 (talk) 16:34, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Coffee4 If you wish, you can join the ongoing Talk:Kamala_Harris#RfC:_Should_Kamala_Harris_be_described_as_'African_American'_in_the_lead?. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:39, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Coffee4, people besides African-Americans do care about it. We currently describe Harris as she describes herself on her campaign and Senate websites: as African-American and South Asian-American. As mentioned above, we are having a debate about this very thing right now and you are welcome to join in. That single source about Harris attending a black church quotes Harris herself as saying that. I'm not sure why it would be unlikely an Indian mother with daughters who she believed would be perceived as black (which Harris has said her mother did, also discussed on this talk page) wouldn't want them to attend a black church as well as attending temple. —valereee (talk) 17:33, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Reliable sources typically take precedent over personal websites. Most media outlets are referring to her as "a Woman of Color" because it is an overarching term that includes people with Jamaican and Indian (or South Asian) heritage. Example: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/politics/kamala-harris-vp-biden.html. Alternatively, she could be called "Black and of South Asian descent" to recognize her biracial heritage. See: https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/08/12/us/politics/ap-us-election-2020-harris-black-voters.html and https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/12/opinion/kamala-harris-indian-american.html. Stoney1976 (talk) 23:39, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Distinguish hatnote with wrestler Kamala

I've removed the distinguish hatnote with the wrestler Kamala (wrestler). My reasoning is that Kamala Harris is far more famous than the wrestler, and even though their names are similar, I believe it would be very unlikely anyone would mix the two up. I don't think it's necessary here. FuriouslySerene (talk) 17:18, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

FuriouslySerene, I've been thinking about that, too. I don't disagree. The wrestler isn't known as Kamala Harris. They're known as Kamala. Just so happens their legal name is Harris. I'm not sure it's enough for a hat. If necessary we could direct people to a dab, maybe? —valereee (talk) 17:25, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Since Kamala is its own dab page, I agree with removing the hatnote. If Kamala redirected here, we should keep it. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:28, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with the removal. I was considering doing it myself. - MrX 🖋 18:10, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Back again. Doesn't anyone read talk pages anymore? -- Scjessey (talk) 19:37, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

In fairness, it may be hard to find this section sandwiched between sections created by people who don't understand that most Jamaicans are of African origin. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:43, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm sort of on-the-fence about it. It could go either way. However, some headlines refer to him as James "Kamala" Harris (so you could say that he too could be called "Kamala Harris"). ...Also, one user (User:Byzantine Scholar) changed the image on both Kamala Harris templates to that of the other Kamala (wrestler), which they said was in protest of the hatnote's removal. I've since reverted those edits (and asked them on their talk page not to vandalize again), but just thought you should know. Paintspot Infez (talk) 20:23, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Please restore the link. Kamala (wrestler) received 280,000 recent views. Removing him is ridiculous and potentially racist. It is certainly disrespectful of someone who recently died.Byzantine Scholar (talk) 20:35, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

There is no likelihood that these people would be confused with each other. - MrX 🖋 00:36, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm in favour of restoring it. It's not about the two people being confused for one another, of course they wouldn't. But the wrestler Kamala's real last name was Harris, it would be easy to make the mistake of thinking either their stage name or real name was "Kamala Harris" and looking for them at this title. Besides, hatnotes are cheap. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 00:52, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Didn't see this earlier. This should be restored; it's not like there are that many people named "Kamala Harris," and she isn't on the disambiguation page "Kamala." Nuke (talk) 01:37, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Sentencing and prison inmate retention

https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Kamala_Harris&type=revision&diff=972552252&oldid=972551393

The removed paragraph is relevant to Harris' biography because it happened during her tenure in office and came up during the primary debate referenced under the 2020 presidential campaign section. Typeprint (talk) 17:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

A lot of things happened during her tenure, but they are not significant in the overall context of her life. I believe that this material is WP:UNDUE. - MrX 🖋 18:41, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, but not all of those things were the subject of controversy. In any case, we'll have to agree to disagree, and the context in which the content was originally removed and later restored indicates a lack of consensus. Typeprint (talk) 18:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

If you believe it has consensus you are welcome to restore it. I don't feel that strongly about it. My interest is in keeping the article as concise as possible. - MrX 🖋 00:30, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Heritage

She is of Jamaican decent not African — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:5CD:C101:8460:7D82:36CF:3298:12FE (talk) 18:12, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

See the FAQ. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

Please revise the statement that Kamila is African American, her father is Jamaican and her Mother is from India, the statement that she is African American is not accurate 174.104.204.255 (talk) 18:21, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Facepalm – Muboshgu (talk) 18:22, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

See Q1 of the FAQ near the top of the page. A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 18:36, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Most media outlets are referring to her as "a Woman of Color" because it is an overarching term that includes people with Jamaican and Indian (or South Asian) heritage. Example: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/politics/kamala-harris-vp-biden.html. Alternatively, she could be called "Black and of South Asian descent" to recognize her biracial heritage. See: https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/08/12/us/politics/ap-us-election-2020-harris-black-voters.html and https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/12/opinion/kamala-harris-indian-american.html. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stoney1976 (talk • contribs) 22:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The pronunciation revert

She says it should be "Comma-la": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYkZkpLQUS0

The Indian pronunciation actually has all three syllables unstressed; the English language is iambic; her pronunciation, which is the only version that matters, combines the two. WP should refer to her version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.26.160 (talk • contribs)

"Comma-la" doesn't work because Americans pronounce the "o" of "comma" like an "ah" sound. This is the English language Wikipedia, not the American pronunciation Wikipedia. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:07, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

This edit by Umimmak (talk · contribs) is surely incorrect. There is no emphasis on any of the syllables in the name. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:22, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Well reliable sources say there is stress on the first syllable, and that the first two syllables are pronounced like (the standard American English pronunciation of) the word "comma", namely /ˈkɑːmə/, KAH-mə. What sources are you looking at which claim otherwise? Umimmak (talk) 19:29, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The video helpfully linked by the IP editor at the top of this section, with a segment distributed by the subject, explains how to pronounce it. There's no emphasis on any syllable. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:36, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

@Scjessey: I hear a clear emphasis on the first syllable... you can hear the aspiration of the initial /k/, it's a full, not reduced vowel, it's at a louder volume, a longer length... it has all the hallmarks of a stressed syllable in English. And again all the sources say as much when describing her first name's pronunciation. Umimmak (talk) 19:44, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I disagree, and all the reliable sources make the same error with "comma" because they are from American outlets. The video originally came from this tweet. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:50, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The first syllable is stressed; the vowel is long, not reduced. Her comparison to "comma" underlines the point (ignoring the oh and ah difference in American pronunciation). That is different from the original Indian pronunciation where the first vowel is reduced and syllable unstressed. 67.164.26.160 (talk)

(edit conflict) The video also has the children saying her name with stress on the initial syllable. Harris herself is American so I'm not sure what mistake you think is being made, especially when she herself has said the first two syllables are pronounced like "comma" (KAH-mə) and agreed that the emphasis is on the first syllable: [54]. What is your source for saying there is no stress in her name? Your own interpretation of the audio in that video? Umimmak (talk) 20:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) /ˈkɑmə lɑ/? I don't have a source for that, I typed "comma la" into a phonetics translator. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:24, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh it's already there. Never mind. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:24, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Scjessey, the first syllable is stressed in comma, and that is not an American pronunciation thing. Would the youtube video be considered reliable for linking as source? Seems the simplest way to get the point across. IPA and explanations based on stress don't really capture the nuance. 67.164.26.160 (talk) 19:45, 12 August 2020‎ (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

Change "Harris Barr if he had reviewed the underlying evidence before deciding not to charge the President with obstruction of justice."

to

"Harris asked Barr if he had reviewed the underlying evidence before deciding not to charge the President with obstruction of justice." Ranchorama (talk) 20:14, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done – Muboshgu (talk) 20:19, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

Kamala Harris isn't African American. She is Jamaican. I could be wrong. 108.35.139.201 (talk) 20:15, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. You may wish to participate in the requests for comment further up the page. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:19, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

We are describing her as African-American and South Asian-American because the way she describes herself - at her Senate page and elsewhere. Please see the FAQ section at the top of the page. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:54, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

In the Suspension section which talks about Harris dropping out of the presidential primaries in December, 2019 "after stating she did not have enough funding to continue.", a new sentence should be added: "At that point in time, she also had just 3.4 percent support nationally (NBC News 12/03/2019)." 2606:A000:111F:36D:FC71:263F:8586:D43C (talk) 20:18, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Your edit could suggest that she dropped out not for her stated reason of insufficient funding but really because of the low approval rating, which fails WP:SYNTH as no source states that conclusion. Could you revise? A link to the source you're citing would be useful to evaluate. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:23, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Kamala Harris and far-flung language and religious nationalisms

Hello Valereee, Drmies, MelanieN, Muboshgu, Rklahn, Naddruf, The Four Deuces and others,

Several sentences (constituting WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS) have been added by one or more editors. These are:

As a result, Harris writes in her memoir that she understands small amounts of Tamil. Gopalan insisted on giving her daughters names to help them preserve their Indian cultural identity; she named Kamala "Kamala Devi" for religious reasons, as both words are derived from Hindu mythology. "Kamala" is Sanskrit for "lotus" and an alternative name for the Goddess Lakshmi who is often depicted with the aforementioned flower; whereas "Devi" is Sanskrit for "goddess" and the name of the female deity who protects villages.

The LA Times article says only "Indian mythology," (full quote: "Shyamala insisted on giving her daughters names derived from Indian mythology, in part to help preserve their cultural identity" see here) Both "Kamala" and "Maya" also occur in Buddhist mythology, the latter much more so than it does in Hindu mythology. Besides being a name for "illusion" in Indian mythology, Maya is the name of the mother of the Buddha, see Britannica here; see WP's own Sacred lotus in religious art, whose names in Sanskrit and Pali language are both Kamala and Padma.

The point that I am attempting to make again, this time more explicitly, is that South Asia is riven by various forms of linguistic- and religious-nationalisms. Kamala Harris is an American politician whose stomping ground is American culture, not South Asian or Jamaican. A brief description of the parents' background is appropriate (but keeping in mind that they too spent the majority of their years in the US, not India or Jamaica); but an extended disquisition on family ancestry—especially with a view to puff up, to promote or extol, far removed issues and fancies—is not. The original sentence said only, "Harris identifies as African-American and considers her experience to be American." Please help keep the article NPOV, the main body as well as the lead. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:39, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• IMO: trivia. If people want this level of info, they can consult the sources we so helpfully provide. —valereee (talk) 20:47, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Yes. Similarly, the sentences, "In a 2018 article written in Jamaica Global, Donald Harris claimed to be a descendant of slave owner Hamilton Brown. Biracial of Indian Tamil and Jamaican descent, Kamala Harris identifies simply as "American"." are other examples of benighted trivia, this time Jamaican. Tamil is an ethnic and language category, not racial. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:02, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• I removed the passages and, Valereee, cited you for critical mass. The WaPo headline is deceptive, and that last edit is plucked right from it: "Kamala Harris identifies simply as "American"" can be taken in many different ways. The article also says "Harris grew up embracing her Indian culture, but living a proudly African American life" and "My mother understood very well that she was raising two black daughters", so the whole "there's only one American" just isn't correct, and the headline, and how that ended up in the article, that's easily misleading. Drmies (talk) 21:13, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• Personally, I'm not sure how any of that is synthesis or original research and I think this is interesting and relevant info to include. I also don't understand your title of "far-flung language and religious nationalisms". It seems to be your idea that Indian culture and/or languages are somehow less American than other culture. It seems that this wouldn't be an issue with any type of European ancestry, or names from some kind of Christian tradition.—Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 21:16, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
  • I don't know about "far-flung", but I do know that we do not do etymologies and context for names of other people, unless there are some serious considerations there--like someone being named for Nathan Bedford Forrest, or someone getting a different name later in life (like Saint Boniface). Drmies (talk) 21:20, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• This page does seem to be going off into minor language and religious directions. I think drilling down into her Tamil roots may be interesting regionally, but not particularly encyclopedic. The Tamil roots may be relevant if she were an Indian politician, as Californian is to an American one. Generally, I agree with Fowler&fowler on this. Im no longer in a position to edit the article (I lack 500 total edits), but if I were able, there are edits I would make in this area. Rklahn (talk) 21:49, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
• I agree with removing all of this. Not because there is anything wrong with it, just because it is a level of detail not needed for a biographical article in an encyclopedia. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:30, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
• Yes, this should be either removed or greatly trimmed. RedHotPear (talk) 00:59, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, everyone, for replying. For the record, I do not think that the culture of India is less American, indeed less of the world, than European culture. The very fact that arithmetic, as we know it, as it is taught in elementary and middle school around the world, is largely a creation of Indian culture would belie that. Where it is appropriate, discussion of that culture whether literary, artistic, or scientific, is fine. I have done my share of explicating it in subject areas in which the standards are well-defined. But there is very little reliable literature on Kamala Harris's history. We have her version, but she is not a historian. A Wall Street Journal article on her, for example, says, “I come from a family of fighters,” she added, a reference not just to her mother but to her grandfather, P.V. Gopalan, who Ms. Harris says was part of a group in India in the 1940s that sought independence from British rule. He didn’t promote his views widely because of his job as a civil servant under British rule, she says." This is the sort of vague historicizing, about what in effect is a closet freedom fighter, and thus unverifiable, that we need to be smart about when reporting in WP.

Anyway, I think the page seems to be stabilizing. I am happy to return to my vacation. :) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:19, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I enjoy working with you and appreciate your contributions! Happy vacationing. RedHotPear (talk) 03:29, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

she nor her parents are/were african americans. its a simple google search to get it correct. 2601:144:201:3B00:F822:1A96:DDCD:C740 (talk) 21:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:29, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Please see the FAQ. If you have remaining questions, please come back here. —valereee (talk) 21:29, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

My roots go back, within my lifetime, to my paternal grandmother Miss Chrishy (née Christiana Brown, descendant of Hamilton Brown who is on record as plantation and slave owner and founder of Brown’s Town) http://archive.is/907zm#selection-2675.0-2675.206 65.36.122.116 (talk) 21:28, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:29, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi, IP. Are you requesting an edit? —valereee (talk) 21:30, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

Kamala Devi Harris was born on October 20, 1964, in Oakland, California.[2] Her mother, Shyamala Gopalan, was a breast-cancer scientist who had emigrated from Tamil Nadu, India in 1960 to pursue a doctorate in endocrinology at UC Berkeley.[8] Her father, Donald Harris, is a Stanford University emeritus professor of economics, who emigrated from British Jamaica in 1961 for graduate study in economics at UC Berkeley.[9][10] In a 2018 article written in Jamaica Global, Donald Harris claimed to be a descendant of slave owner Hamilton Brown.[11] Biracial of Indian Tamil and Jamaican descent, Kamala Harris identifies simply as "American".[12][13] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamala_Harris

http://archive.is/907zm#selection-2675.0-2675.206 65.36.122.116 (talk) 21:37, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:41, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

A note on these edit requests questioning her ethnicity

It's based on conservatives who are attempting to discredit her. Mark Levin and Dinesh D'Souza are two who have tried to claim that she is not African American or Black in terms that are very similar to the rush of edit requests we've gotten in the last 24 hours.[55] – Muboshgu (talk) 21:38, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Ah, I should have suspected. Insanity. Neutrality^talk 22:20, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Is this really news? Look below. I am SO tired of this kind of BS. It's like we're on Instagram. Drmies (talk) 22:31, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Drmies, more like Parler. I meant this section solely as an FYI to provide context. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:51, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh it gets worse? Maybe I should quit social media altogether. Drmies (talk) 22:54, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Drmies, it gets much, much worse. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:57, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Assume good faith... Most media outlets are referring to her as "a Woman of Color" because it is an overarching term that includes people with biracial (Jamaican and Indian (or South Asian)) heritage. Example: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/politics/kamala-harris-vp-biden.html. Alternatively, she could be called "Black and of South Asian descent" to recognize her biracial heritage. See: https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2020/08/12/us/politics/ap-us-election-2020-harris-black-voters.html and https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/12/opinion/kamala-harris-indian-american.html.Stoney1976 (talk) 23:02, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Stoney1976, AGF has its limits. It would be some coincidence if all of these requests were completely independent of each other. I don't think it assumes bad faith to point out that conservative commentators have likely inspired these requests. Sources point out she's biracial because of the African background. "Jamaican" is not a race. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:13, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Given how difficult it is to define "race", this non-American is having trouble keeping up with Americans think ARE races. HiLo48 (talk) 01:07, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Stoney1976, "most media" are not referring to her as a "Woman of Color", certainly not with those initial capitals. Yes, that matters: it makes me doubt you. Drmies (talk) 00:44, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Is it possible that some editors simply don't know or understand the ancestry of dark skinned people in Jamaica? Maybe they think such people have been there for thousands of years. Not trying to to rude here. Just suspecting possible ignorance at play rather than political machinations, at least for some posters. (And I mean ignorance in the literal senses, not intending any offence.) HiLo48 (talk) 23:07, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

HiLo48, certainly possible. Ignorance is a powerful force. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:15, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Technically, we all come from Africa... Reliable sources (New York Times, Washington Post, Rachel Maddow, etc.) are all describing her as a "Woman of Color" or "Black and of South Asian/Indian descent." I wouldn't describe them as ignorant.Stoney1976 (talk) 23:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The volume could be due to the attention this page is getting, especially from Black women and Women of Color. Or just People of Color. Identity and accurate descriptions of it are very important issues.Stoney1976 (talk) 23:30, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Which is why we would go by what Kamala goes by. The volume is from the attention the page is getting, specifically the attention from the right. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:03, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Kamala just says she considers herself "American." Says so here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/i-am-who-i-am-kamala-harris-daughter-of-indian-and-jamaican-immigrants-defines-herself-simply-as-american/2019/02/02/0b278536-24b7-11e9-ad53-824486280311_story.html Her ancestry deserves more attention than that. 67.82.88.203 (talk) 02:53, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

To be fair, the following exchange comes from the same article: "'You’re African American, but you’re also Indian American,' a reporter said. 'Indeed,' she replied." Dumuzid (talk) 03:12, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2020 Kamala Harris is not African-American. She is American of Jamaican and Indian decent.

Kamala Harris is Not African-American. She is of Jamaican and Indian decent. 50.38.238.148 (talk) 21:40, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: read the FAQ. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:42, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you Muboshgu. Drmies (talk) 22:32, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Violent crimes section weird math statistics

She took 49 violent crime cases to trial and secured 36 convictions, for an 84% success rate.[59] - 36 divided by 49 is 0.73. Imho, this either needs correction or clarification.Oathed (talk) 22:29, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that the math looks fishy, not just for the sentence you mentioned but also the sentence before it. We should investigate the sources and try to clarify this. RedHotPear (talk) 02:11, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Change "Shyamala Gopalan emigrated from Tamil Nadu, India" to just "India"

Note the asymmetry with the next sentence on Donald Harris, who emigrated from "Jamaica." One emigrates from a country, not a city or state; passport, visa, emigration clearance, and all other formalities are country based. She did her undergrad in Delhi, so it is not even clear where she physically departed the country. Not that that matters. 67.164.26.160 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:34, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• India is not Jamaica. The formalities aren't that relevant. From an encyclopedic point of view, what matters is what's relevant and what the sources say. Surely you understand that India is a big country, and that there are great differences between the various states. Drmies (talk) 22:37, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
  • The source does not say she emigrated from Tamil Nadu. The point is "emigration" is a formal process and an encyclopedia must look at the norms of that process. The various ethno-linguistic pulls and pressures driving the wording is not apt for this forum. 67.164.26.160 (talk) 22:42, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
    • An encyclopedia should not fetishize possible legal niceties. And I mean "niceties" in the old meaning of the word. Drmies (talk) 00:46, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
      • I agree that the formalities are unimportant, but it seems to be unsourced? It could warrant removal as an unsourced, possibly unimportant/excessive detail. RedHotPear (talk) 02:04, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
      • (I am referring to the "Tamil Nadu" aspect, of course. The source mentions south India, which is a broader region than Tamil Nadu.) RedHotPear (talk) 02:07, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
        • Several sources mention Kamala Harris's mother is from Tamil Nadu, India. All sources mention she emigrated to the U.S. Putting that together to say she emigrated from Tamil Nadu is WP:SYNTH. We are talking of the biography subject's mother, and I do not see the need for this kind of inaccurate phrasing just to highlight a part of the mother's identity. We are not the ones to decide what divisions of India must be given due weight here; our sources do that work for us through their wording, and that wording says things like "emigrated from home" or "emigrated from India." I challenge you to find one source that states what we do. Shyamala Gopalan has an article covering her. 67.164.26.160 (talk) 03:31, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
          • I would agree with removing it out of caution and because it is not an essential detail. RedHotPear (talk) 05:04, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

"Counterpart"

This article currently states that Harris "signed an accord with her counterpart, the attorney general of Mexico, Marisela Morales." The AG of California is NOT the counterpart of the AG of Mexico. Much as Californians might like it to be, California is not a country. Mexico is. This type of belittling of our southern neighbor, treating it as an equal of one of the states, is alarmingly widespread and completely unfounded. The counterpart of the AG of Mexico is the US AG, not any state's AG. I'm removing the phrase "her counterpart." The rest of the sentence does fine without it. --Cromwellt|talk|contribs 23:11, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. HiLo48 (talk) 23:38, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The tense of the verb should be changed

The presence of the word "since" in this sentence requires that "has served" be used instead of "serves": who serves as the junior United States senator from California since S. Valkemirer (talk) 23:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done -- MelanieN (talk) 00:45, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

"a black Baptist Church" to "a Black Baptist Church"

Black Baptist Church is a specific church as the link implies. The link should span the whole phrase "Black Baptist Church" as that is just a more common name for the National Baptist Convention. 67.164.26.160 (talk)

 Done Thanks for the suggestion. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:41, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Take out the "third female U.S. vice-presidential nominee" in the lede

She is still a presumptive nominee. This sentence can be put back after the Democratic convention. 67.164.26.160 (talk)

We say "presumptive nominee" in the first paragraph. We say "running mate," which is probably accurate at this point, in the third paragraph. I think that's clear enough that we don't need to throw in another "presumptive". -- MelanieN (talk) 00:35, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I would leave it out because being third isn't trend-setting. And there's already been a female candidate for the presidency for a major party. TFD (talk) 02:06, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I can see that, but the gender aspect is also important in a sense because the prior two female VP nominees were not elected. She would be the first female vice president if elected. RedHotPear (talk) 02:13, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

We could say that if elected she would be the first Female elected VP. But being the 3rd nominee of a major party isn't a big deal. TFD (talk) 02:29, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't understand the hurry. This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. If nominated she will be the third female nominee of a major party. If elected, she will be the first female VP. And four or eight years after that if nominated and elected she would be the first female president. Should we put hypotheticals in here? 67.164.26.160 (talk)

No, it would not be appropriate to speculate about her presidential aspirations "four or eight years" later; that goes too far and would fall under WP:CRYSTAL. RedHotPear (talk) 03:25, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

All hypotheticals are WP:CRYSTAL. I have seen no justification for the sentence that we have right now. It may be high probability but as of now it is inaccurate and until and unless she wins, largely irrelevant. 67.164.26.160 (talk)

shrug I am ambivalent about the current sentence. Whether or not it is notable enough is one thing, whether or not "presumptive" is needed is another. I strongly dispute that the gender aspect is "irrelevant." RedHotPear (talk) 04:58, 13 August 2020 (UTC)