Talk:Richard Carew (antiquary)

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BetacommandBot 02:22, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

The Excellency of the English tongue

The current chat over whether Carew should be described as English, British or Cornish is interesting. I looked at some of the sources. There is one which describes him as a Cornish gentlemen who is 'a lover of his country', which I would take to mean England, given the context? I looked at Carew's last work, ‘The Excellency of the English tongue,' which was written as a rebuttal and an affirmation of English, English culture/England.Halbared (talk) 19:32, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe that description is referring to Richard Carew, if you mean the review of Rowse's Court and Country.  Tewdar  23:19, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

@Halbared: Yeah, that's referring to Robert Trencreek (Rowse, p. 146)  Tewdar  08:37, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tewdar: Thanks for the clarification and help there.Halbared (talk) 09:30, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

The biography of Richard Carew in the Rowse book is extremely useful. I'm planning on making some improvements to this article in the medium-future.  Tewdar  09:53, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Tewdar in your recent quote from Carew's Survey of Cornwall: I had also made a more painful than perfect collection of most of the Cornish gentlemen's names and arms, but because the publishing thereof might perhaps go accompanied with divers wrongs, to my much reverenced friends the heralds by thrusting my sickle into their harvest, to a great many [of] my countrymen whom my want of information should be forced to pass over unmentioned country may refer to district, region, [or] quarter rather than a nation. See https://www.shakespeareswords.com/Public/Glossary.aspx as Carew was a contemporary of Shakespeare. TSventon (talk) 19:39, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Right, but however you slice the Tesen Hevva, he is talking here about Cornish gentlemen and describing them as my countrymen, or at least this is how I interpret it. I have no idea whether this means Carew 'thought of himself as Cornish', which is why I prefer to base this sort of thing on (the majority of) modern-ish reliable sources. Perhaps I can yet find a more explicit quotation from Carew himself.  Tewdar  19:49, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

And look at what we get for 'countryman': [Charles to all] O that I were some other countryman! [i.e. a citizen of some other country] 🤔  Tewdar  19:53, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I did see 'countryman'. The glossary is a list of words that are used with non-modern meanings, so country may well sometimes have been used in its modern sense. TSventon (talk) 21:14, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Nationality

Carew was orginally described in the lead without any nationality/ethnicity, merely noting he was from Cornwall. However in this edit [1], GrindtXX changed that to say he is Cornish. This was February 2018. This was changed boldly 4 and a half years later by an editor I won't ping in as they are banned [2] (November 2022). Two edits, but a year an a half later an IP put it back to Cornish. This was reverted. Tewdar more recently tried the same and was reverted despite mentioning sources. Then, today, Smasongarrison boldly changed it to English, with an edsum "fixed lead".

Now, MOS:NATIONALITY AKA WP:ETHNICITY addresses UK nationalities in note a. It reads:

There is no categorical preference between describing a person as British rather than as English, Scottish, or Welsh. Decisions on which label to use should be determined through discussions and consensus. The label must not be changed arbitrarily. To come to a consensus, editors should consider how reliable sources refer to the subject, particularly UK reliable sources, and whether the subject has a preferred nationality by which they identify.

The status quo for the longest period was clearly "Cornish", but the note above does not specifically mention Cornish. The change to British was bold on a low traffic page, and went unchallenged for some time but just 2 edits later was reverted. So I have reverted to the status quo, and now I think we need to do as the note says and come to a decision on which is best. I note some discussion above. I don't see a consensus for British, English or Cornish. And Cornish is acceptable if that is what the sources say. Although not being listed in our note, there are claims to Cornish nationality based on linguistic and cultural factors that would be just as appropriate as for Welsh or Scottish. So MOS:NATIONALITY applies and now we need to review the sources. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:44, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with Cornish. I changed it from British to English because they were in the 16/17th century, when british isn't really a thing. I think given what you've written Cornish makes the most sense. Mason (talk) 12:56, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Also in case it is helpful. Here are the cites from the edit exchange<ref>{{Cite book |last=Lemetti |first=Juhana |title=Imagination and diversity in the philosophy of Hobbes |publisher=University of Helsinki |year=2006 |isbn=952-10-3233-2 |pages=45}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal |date=1989|title=A. L. Rowse. &lt;italic&gt;Court and Country: Studies in Tudor Social History&lt;/italic&gt;. Athens: University of Georgia Press. 1987. Pp. x, 310. $24.95 |url=https://doi.org/10.1086/ahr/94.2.434 |journal=The American Historical Review |doi=10.1086/ahr/94.2.434 |issn=1937-5239}}</ref><ref>{{Cite journal |last=Arrizabalaga |first=Jon |date=2015 |title=The Examination of Men’s Wits. Richard Carew. Ed. Rocío G. Sumillera. MHRA Tudor & Stuart Translations 17. London: Modern Humanities Research Association, 2014. x + 376 pp. $44.99. |url=https://www.cambridge.org/core/product/identifier/S003443380004450X/type/journal_article |journal=Renaissance Quarterly |language=en |volume=68 |issue=4 |pages=1348–1349 |doi=10.1086/685133 |issn=0034-4338}}</ref><ref>{{Cite book |title=The Celts: history, life, and culture |date=2012 |publisher=ABC-CLIO |isbn=978-1-59884-964-6 |editor-last=Koch |editor-first=John T. |location=Santa Barbara, Calif |pages=193 |editor-last2=Minard |editor-first2=Antone}}</ref>. Mason (talk) 13:02, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

First, just for the record, it wasn't me who introduced "Cornish" in 2018: it was actually introduced in this edit of 2005, and (on a quick review) remained unchallenged until 2022. Having said that, I'm also fine with it. It's not really being used here as an ethnicity/nationality, but as a defining characteristic: Carew wasn't just an antiquary who happened to be from Cornwall, he is so closely associated with Cornwall that it would be ludicrous to omit this from the lead sentence and short description. The only real counterargument to my mind is that some (non-British) readers may not know what "Cornish" means, and if people feel strongly about that we could perhaps consider a reword that includes both "English" and "Cornwall/Cornish". GrindtXX (talk) 15:14, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, yes, I misread that edit. 2005 it is. I agree with the above too. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 00:07, 31 March 2024 (UTC)