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Protected edit request on 20 August 2015

I'd like to request some changes to the IPA section of MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert-core.js. (I made dozens of changes when I was admin, which all proved routine.)

The section is currently:

           'IPA': 't̪ d̪ ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ  ɸβθðʃʒɕʑʂʐçʝɣχʁħʕʜʢɦ  ɱɳɲŋɴ  ʋɹɻɰ  ʙⱱʀɾɽ  ɫɬɮɺɭʎʟ  ʍɥɧ  ʼ ɓɗʄɠʛ  ʘǀǃǂǁ  ɨʉɯ ɪʏʊ øɘɵɤ ə ɚ ɛœɜɝɞʌɔ æ ɐɶɑɒ  ʰʱʷᶣʲˠˤˀ ᵊ k̚ ⁿˡ  ˈˌːˑ t̪ d̪ s̺ s̻ θ̼ s̬ n̥ ŋ̊ a̤ a̰  β̞ ˕ r̝ ˔ e̘ e̙ u̟ i̠ ɪ̈ e̽ ɔ̹ ɔ̜ n̩ ə̆ ə̯ ə̃ ȷ̃ ɫ z̴ ə̋ ə́ ə̄ ə̀ ə̏ ə̌ ə̂ ə᷄ ə᷅ ə᷇ ə᷆ ə᷈ ə᷉ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ t͜ɬ ‿  ˥ ˦ ˧ ˨ ˩ ꜛ ꜜ | ‖ ↗ ↘  k͈ s͎ {\{IPA|+}}',

Please change it to:

           'IPA': 't̪ d̪ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ  ɸβθðʃʒɕʑʂʐçʝɣχʁħʕʜʢɦ  ɱɳɲŋɴ  β̞ ʋɹɻɰ  ʙⱱɾɽʀ  ɫɬɮɺɭʎʟ  ʍɥɧ  ʼ ɓɗʄɠʛ  ʘǀǃǂǁᶢᵑ  ɨʉɯ ɪʏʊ øɘɵɤ əɚ ɛœɜɝɞʌɔ æɐ ɶɑɒ  ʰʱʷᶣᵝʲˠˤˀ ᵊ ◌̚ ⁿ ˡ  ˈˌːˑ ◌̪ ◌̺ ◌̻ ◌̼ ◌̬ ◌̥ ◌̊  ◌̞ ˕ ◌̝ ˔ ◌̘ ◌̙ ◌̽ ◌̟ ◌̠ ◌̈ ◌̤ ◌̹ ◌̜ ◌̩ ◌̆ ◌̯ ◌̃ ◌̰ ȷ̃  ◌̋ ◌́ ◌̄ ◌̀ ◌̏ ◌̌ ◌̂ ◌᷄ ◌᷅ ◌᷇ ◌᷆ ◌᷈ ◌᷉ ◌͡ ◌͜ ‿  ˥ ˦ ˧ ˨ ˩ ꜛ ꜜ | ‖ ↗ ↘  ◌͈ ◌͉ ◌͎ ◌̣ ◌͊ ◌᷽ ◌̫ ◌͇ ˭  {\{IPA|+}} {\{angle bracket|+}}',

Explanation:

• The bulk of the change: except for a few preset combos mixed in with the consonants, change all diacritic-carrying letters to ◌. I am the one who added carrying letters because the Wiki software was unable to handle bare diacritics. (You might want to check if this is still true. If bare diacritics are now supported, by all means take that route. Just deleted all ◌ from the above. It would be easier for users.) If a carrier is still needed, use the default holder ◌ instead of letters of the alphabet. Currently trying to get the diacritic off the carrying letter and onto the letter you want is a pain. ◌ will be easier, because it can be put in the find & replace box under Advanced editing and removed, leaving the diacritic on the desired letter. The three strings to sub with ◌ (with a couple rearrangements to keep similar-looking diacritics together) are:
  • k̚ --> ◌̚
  • t̪ d̪ s̺ ... t͡ʃ d͡ʒ t͜ɬ ‿ --> ◌̪ ◌̺ ◌̻ ◌̼ ◌̬ ◌̥ ◌̊ ◌̞ ˕ ◌̝ ˔ ◌̘ ◌̙ ◌̽ ◌̟ ◌̠ ◌̈ ◌̤ ◌̹ ◌̜ ◌̩ ◌̆ ◌̯ ◌̃ ◌̴ ◌̰ ◌̋ ◌́ ◌̄ ◌̀ ◌̏ ◌̌ ◌̂ ◌᷄ ◌᷅ ◌᷇ ◌᷆ ◌᷈ ◌᷉ ◌͡ ◌͜ ‿
  • k͈ s͎ --> ◌͈ ◌͎
• ⁿˡ are adjacent, and they need a space between them to display separately from each other.
• ȷ̃ ɫ should be removed. The first (based on a dotless j) was a hack from the days when IPA fonts didn't handle this well, but now Gentium handles it properly with a normal j, which is how it should be. (This is a rare sound anyway.) The second is redundant with both the preceding el section and the subsequent diacritic.

(Given the comments below, putting them back, instead removing the redundant ɫ in the laterals to avoid confusion with the similar-looking ɬ, something that IPA-newbies do a lot.)

• ʙⱱʀɾɽ should be changed to the order of the IPA chart, ʙⱱɾɽʀ.
• t̪ d̪ are listed twice. If the sub with ◌ is rejected, I'd replace the second set (before s̺) with the single letter n̪.
• If the sub with ◌ is accepted, t͡ʃ d͡ʒ should be added to the beginning of the string, just after t̪ d̪: t̪ d̪ ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ > t̪ d̪ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ. (Check that they don't fuse with adjacent letters in the edit box; they may need to be spaced to keep them separate. t̪ d̪ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ are all pretty common, and other editors have evidently decided they're worth listing separately.
• If the sub with ◌ is accepted, a β̞ should be added to the approximant range: β̞ ʋɹɻɰ. (Spacing probably necessary.)
• Add ᵑ ᶢ for clicks and ᵝ for Japanese and Swedish vowels.
• Add some of the more common ExtIPA diacritics to the two we already have (at the end): ◌͇ ◌͉ ◌͊ ˭
• Add {\{angle bracket|+}} so users don't need to switch edit windows.

— kwami (talk) 18:32, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

but now Gentium handles it properly

... Why do you mention Gentium, asuming less then 0.1% of editors actually have this font installed? -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 19:30, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Most of our articles now use a tilde over j, and I haven't heard any complaints. It was something I added back when IPA fonts didn't handle that properly. Now at least some of them do. Readers who don't have Gentium or an equivalent font most likely won't see proper IPA anyway. But leave it in if you like. I can change that part of the request if you object to it. — kwami (talk) 20:11, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I'd rather you not rely on any specific font. Untimately, it is the reader who needs to see them. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 20:50, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Okay. I put it back. — kwami (talk) 00:25, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

@JorisvS:, @Erutuon:, @Peter238: -- would any of you have problems with the proposed change? For a long time I used a Dvorak IPA keyboard and didn't need to worry about edittools, but now that I'm using them, I'm finding the IPA section to be a pain in the ass. — kwami (talk) 20:48, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I assume what you meant is the clickable list of IPA symbols above the text field? I always use [1] anyway, so I don't think any change to that would be an issue for me. Peter238 (talk) 20:55, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

As long as you don't need to transcribe tone!

Actually, the list of IPA below the text field.

I was thinking that since you use the IPA so much here you might catch any mistakes or omissions. — kwami (talk) 21:06, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

That's interesting, because in my case, it has always been placed above the text field, rather than below it.

The list looks ok, but what's up with removing ⟨ɫ⟩? The combined variant ⟨l̴⟩ doesn't always look right (it certainly doesn't in case of my browser - the tilde is screwed up). Peter238 (talk) 21:16, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

There's a 'special characters' option above the window, and a separate 'insert' edittools option below the window.

<ɫ> already appears in the list of laterals. — kwami (talk) 21:30, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

kwami: Thanks for pinging me. I don't have a problem with any of your changes, and you can go ahead with them as far as I'm concerned. I've never been sure why diacritics were put on particular symbols, so it makes sense to put them on the default diacritic holder, unless there's a reason not to. If anyone's doing a lot of transcription with particular diacriticked symbols, that would be a reason to add them to the IPA menu, but as far as I know, no language has a lot of schwas with tone contours on them.

Not disagreeing with your proposal, but thinking of a further improvement: perhaps symbols could be organized by shape rather than by articulatory features. For instance, all symbols like s could be grouped together (ʃʂʂ), symbols like h (ħʜɦɧɥ), symbols like epsilon (ɛɜɝ), symbols like e (ɘəɚɚ), and so on. This would seem haphazard to linguists like us, but might be helpful for ordinary people typing transcriptions, people who haven't yet learned the articulatory features associated with the symbols. That sort of thing is basically already done with the implosive consonants ɓɗʄɠʛ, though only incidentally since they share a manner of articulation. I wonder if that would make the edit box useless for us linguists, though... — Eru·tuon 22:00, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I think the main argument against that is that people would run a risk of mixing up similar-looking letters, like ɤ for ɣ or ɵ for θ. The people who would benefit by having them together are exactly the people who would confuse them. By having the former in with the vowels and the latter in with the consonants, there's less possibility of confusion.

Anyway, IMO that should be a separate proposal if people agree it's something we should do. — kwami (talk) 22:44, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, it's a different proposal, and we don't need to get sidetracked. However, in response to your point, I wouldn't propose mixing consonants and vowels, and with consonants and vowels separate, ɤ and ɣ, and ɵ and θ, wouldn't be confused. Confusion of ø and ɵ, and ə and ɘ (and so on), would be possible, though. — Eru·tuon 01:16, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

That's IPA's fault, not ours. Peter238 (talk) 01:18, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

The current order reflects the IPA charts, and presumably anyone using this edittool has seen and has access to an IPA chart. In order to make it clearer, we could add the basic-ISO Latin letters, even though no-one would ever need to use them. E.g. ɨ ʉ ɯ --> i y ɨ ʉ ɯ u. But that would also be a separate discussion. — kwami (talk) 01:25, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Break

@Edokter:. Hi. Addressed your concern, and another minor one; the rest of the discussion is about what additional changes we might want to make. — kwami (talk) 21:00, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, no matter what I try, I cannot get the carrier characters to work; every time I try to delete them, the diacritic disappears as well (they are tied after all). That makes them unusable. I also can't figure out how to copy the above block without the carriers (same problem). Perhaps it's not MediaWiki taht is the problem, but the characters themselves...? -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 21:38, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

@Edokter: Deleting the carrier ◌ in ◌̬ shouldn't be any more difficult than than deleting the carrier s in s̬. You can't delete either with just the backspace key. The easiest way is probably by entering the carrier in 'search and replace'. It's difficult to do that with the current version, because there are 17 different carrier letters, which means potentially 17 runs of search & replace, and because the carrier letters also appear in normal text, you can't just hit 'replace all'. I've done it: it takes much more time than is reasonable. But when the carrier letter is universally ◌, which hardly appears in any article, you can do a single 'replace all' to fix all the diacritics in an entire article.

I think by definition we need to say it's a MediaWiki problem. These are standard Unicode combining diacritics. If MediaWiki can't handle Unicode, then it's seriously deficient. But we do have a workaround with search and replace.

Suggestion Maybe we should add some plain text after the IPA symbols advising users to use 'search and replace' to get rid of the diacritic carriers?

When I first added these diacritics, I was running software that enabled me to simply backspace out the carrier letter. I've since discovered that most people don't have it so easy. — kwami (talk) 22:44, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Are all these diacritics needed in the IPA menu? Or do you list every one, even if they are not needed? I though the only diacritics listed are the combined ones used for IPA symbols. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 07:38, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

I use practically all of them, and I'm sure others do. Or at least we can't predict which ones individual people will need. I suppose we could omit ◌̴ [removed form request], which doesn't have good font support. The ExtIPA diacritics are ones that I use or have seen in our articles. Other people might want to add more, but that can wait for a specific request.

I don't understand what you mean by "I though the only diacritics listed are the combined ones used for IPA symbols." — kwami (talk) 16:11, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

What I mean is: this is the section for IPA characters. I cannot imagine that every diacritic is needed for this. You should not try to include every possible character; that is not what edittools is for. It is there to provide a subset, ie. the most common used characters. And it should definitely not require the use of tools like search&replace to use this feature. If you cannot provide a solution that simply works with point-and-click, then this change is not going to happen. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 16:29, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

@Edokter: I don't understand. Your first objection has nothing to do with this request: These characters have been in edittools for years. And your second objection is spurious: I'm suggesting a work-around to ameliorate the defective Mediawiki coding, but the coding is just as defective with nothing done. You seem to be saying that if we can't fix Mediawiki, you won't allow any improvements to edittools. Well, can you fix the code? If not, at least stop blocking improvements designed to compensate.

And please stop changing the template to say this request has been answered when it hasn't been. — kwami (talk) 23:03, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Please stop abusing the edit protected template; the template is only ment to call admins to perform uncontroversial edits, not as a call for discussion. The request can't be answered until the code is ready to go in. You already have my attention anyway, so why do you insist pining other admins with the template? -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 15:24, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

You answered your own question: the request can't be answered, yet you kept marking it answered. I wasn't pinging anyone in particular, I just didn't want this closed and forgotten. — kwami (talk) 18:28, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

The edit protected template is ment only to ping admins to perform an uncontroversial edit. As this is still under discussion, the template should not be used. Please review Wikipedia:Edit requests and Template:Edit fully-protected for future reference. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 21:42, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@Edokter: I'll just second what kwami says: all the IPA diacritics should be included, at least initially. They all have a use in phonetically transcribing sounds. Some are less commonly used than others, and perhaps some could be eliminated from the menu, but there has to be discussion on which ones, if any, don't need to be included.

[I removed the swash as it is poorly supported by fonts--K]

I also think you misunderstood what kwami said. There were two options: include diacritics with the standard carrier character, or without the carrier if MediaWiki allows it. It sounds like MediaWiki doesn't allow it, so the carrier character has to be used. If I'm wrong about there being a misunderstanding, my apologies. — Eru·tuon 01:48, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Edokter, here is the menu without any carrier letters. You can try it and see if it works now. (It didn't a few years ago.)

           'IPA': 't̪ d̪ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ  ɸβθðʃʒɕʑʂʐçʝɣχʁħʕʜʢɦ  ɱɳɲŋɴ  β̞ ʋɹɻɰ  ʙⱱɾɽʀ  ɫɬɮɺɭʎʟ  ʍɥɧ  ʼ ɓɗʄɠʛ  ʘǀǃǂǁᶢᵑ  ɨʉɯ ɪʏʊ øɘɵɤ əɚ ɛœɜɝɞʌɔ æɐ ɶɑɒ  ʰʱʷᶣᵝʲˠˤˀ ᵊ ̚ ⁿ ˡ  ˈˌːˑ ̪ ̺ ̻ ̼ ̬ ̥ ̊  ̞ ˕ ̝ ˔ ̘ ̙ ̽ ̟ ̠ ̈ ̤ ̹ ̜ ̩ ̆ ̯ ̃ ̰ ȷ̃  ̋ ́ ̄ ̀ ̏ ̌ ̂ ᷄ ᷅ ᷇ ᷆ ᷈ ᷉ ͡ ͜ ‿  ˥ ˦ ˧ ˨ ˩ ꜛ ꜜ | ‖ ↗ ↘  ͈ ͉ ͎ ̣ ͊ ᷽ ̫ ͇ ˭  {\{IPA|+}} {\{angle bracket|+}}',

— kwami (talk) 05:18, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

I will try tonight (at home). -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 10:54, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Now live at test wiki. The stand-alone diacritics seem to work. Please test there as well; it it works for you, The code can be copied here. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 15:24, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

How do I test it? There aren't any edittools on the test wiki. — kwami (talk) 18:28, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

There should be. You probably have the (default) gadget disabled (labeled "<gadget-charinsert>"). -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 21:42, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@Edokter: Yeah, that works great! A couple fixes: əɚ and æɐ get glommed together, {{angle bracket|}} is broken up, and some of the tone marks appear over the wrong cell, but those are easy to fix. This should work:

           'IPA': 't̪ d̪ ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ  ɸβθðʃʒɕʑʂʐçʝɣχʁħʕʜʢɦ  ɱɳɲŋɴ  ʋɹɻɰ  ʙⱱɾɽʀ  ɫɬɮɺɭʎʟ  ʍɥɧ  ʼ ɓɗʄɠʛ  ʘǀǃǂǁᶢᵑ  ɨʉɯ ɪʏʊ øɘɵɤ ə ɚ ɛœɜɝɞʌɔ æ ɐ ɶɑɒ  ʰʱʷᶣᵝʲˠˤˀ ᵊ ̚ ⁿ ˡ  ˈˌːˑ ̪ ̺ ̻ ̼ ̬ ̥  ̊  ̞ ˕ ̝ ˔ ̘ ̙ ̽ ̟ ̠  ̈ ̤ ̹ ̜ ̩  ̆ ̯  ̃ ̰   ̋  ́  ̄  ̀  ̏  ̌  ̂  ᷄  ᷅  ᷇  ᷆  ᷈  ᷉  ͡ ͜  ‿  ˥ ˦ ˧ ˨ ˩ ꜛ ꜜ | ‖ ↗ ↘  ͈ ͉ ͎ ̣ ͊ ᷽ ̫ ͇ ˭  {\{IPA|+}} {\{angbr|+}}',

I removed the t͡ʃ, d͡ʒ I had added at the beginning because those are easier to compose now that we don't have carrier letters. — kwami (talk) 00:12, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Updated on testwiki. Angle bracket fixed (and put IPA template behind it). -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 16:27, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Seems to work, but a bit odd. In ä, the new tools place the diaerisis lower than the current ones do, and the results look different on the test page, but when I copy them over here they look the same. Here we have correcting software that may be compensating. — kwami (talk) 18:52, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Testing further, e.g. w c̈ j̈ (entered there and copied here) vs c̈ j̈ (entered here), I can't detect any difference, so we should be good to go. — kwami (talk) 18:57, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

I think the difference comes from different fonts, or just size. I'll cop[y it over. I'll also increase the padding a bit; some characters fall outside the 'buttons' as discritis have zero width, and the padding remains the only clickable area. I will make the cchange now. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 20:04, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

 Done Works quite well. — kwami (talk) 21:25, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Implemented

@Edokter: Thanks! The padding is much easier to click on now.

Aside: The problem wasn't font or size. I don't know what it was, but it seems ok now. I subbed w unicoding and it makes no difference when the page is saved. (Something similar just happened: the acute accent produced the wrong diacritic in my sandbox, and find/replace didn't recognize it when I searched for the correct diacritic, but when I pasted an example here, it came out correct. Perhaps the issue is within the font, because it disappears in my sandbox when I change the adjacent letters.)

But one problem inherited from the old version: the pipe. This is simply the vertical bar on the keyboard (UCS code 007C). As such, we don't really need it here. On the other hand, it causes problems with the IPA template, which should normally always be used when writing in IPA. (Some browsers aren't smart enough to pick an IPA font otherwise, or will mix IPA with other fonts, which looks terrible.) Perhaps you could replace "|" with {{!}} so editors can use it without it causing problems when embedded inside {{IPA}}? That is,

  ꜛ ꜜ | ‖ 

might be usefully replaced with

  ꜛ ꜜ {\{!}} ‖ 

We seem to have lost an important diacritic somewhere along the way: ⟨˞⟩ for rhotic vowels. (We have precomposed ɚ ɝ, but there are other rhotic vowels just in English.) That should probably go after the vowels,

...ɑɒ

to

...ɑɒ ˞

Thanks again — kwami (talk) 21:20, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

I added the ˞ . I don't want to replace the pipe. While {{!}} is ment for use in template, it is not ment for use outside templates. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 19:44, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

@Edokter: Could you remove it altogether then? If people use it and it screws up the display of their transcription, they're likely to get confused. And a simple pipe isn't needed, since we've omitted all other ASCII symbols. — kwami (talk) 22:31, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Makes sense. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 10:59, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

@Edokter: In the discussion below, Jorisv asked if the diacritics could be larger for legibility. I assume he means relative to the letters, with those kept the same user-specified size. The diacritics can be difficult to read, but making everything big could make the edit tool unwieldy. Is there any way to make just the diacritics larger in the display? — kwami (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Request for comment

@Erutuon:, @Peter238:, @TaivoLinguist: does the new format work correctly for you?

Now that we've gotten rid of the carrier letters, making the diacritics easier to use, I'd like your opinion on organizing the IPA edittool into sections. If you go to the Wiki markup edittool (below your edit window), you'll see there are two subsections set off with black unclickable text. Do you think something like that would make the IPA easier to use? I'm thinking:

'IPA': 'consonants: t̪d̪ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ ɸβθð ʃʒʂʐɕʑ çʝɣχʁ ħʕʜʢɦɧ ɱɳɲŋɴ ʋɹɻɥɰʍ ʙⱱɾɽʀ ɺ ɫɬɮɭʎʟ ɓɗᶑʄɠʛ ʘǀǃǂǁ vowels: ɪʏɨʉɯʊ øɘɵɤ ə ɚ ɛœɜɝɞʌɔ æɶɐɑɒ spacing_diacritics: ʼˀˤᵝᵊᶢˠʰʱʲˡⁿᵑʷᶣ˞ ˈˌːˑ‿˕˔ combining_diacritics: ̚ ̪ ̺ ̻ ̼ ̬ ̥  ̊ ̞ ̝ ̘ ̙ ̽ ̟ ̠  ̈ ̤ ̹ ̜ ̩ ̍  ̆ ̯  ̃ ̰ ͡ ͜ tone_&_prosody:  ̋  ́  ̄  ̀  ̏  ̌  ̂ ᷄ ᷅ ᷇ ᷆ ᷈ ᷉ ˥˦˧˨˩ꜛꜜ↗↘‖ extIPA: ͈ ͉ ͎ ̣ ̫ ᷽ ͊ ͇˭ᵻᵿ  {\{angle.bracket|+}} {\{IPA|+}} {\{IPA.link|+}}',

We might want to also get rid of the rather useless consonant ɧ and merge the rest of that block, ʍɥ, into the approximants for ʋɹɻɥɰʍ. We could also get rid of the rather useless vowel ɶ and merge æɐɑɒ together. ɧ and ɶ are so rarely used that I doubt it would be a prob for people to copy & paste from the IPA article. Or, if we need ɧ for Swedish, we could put it at the end of the fricatives after ɦ. Both ɦɧ and ʋɹɻɥɰʍ would be sort-of grouped by shape, which Erutuon might like. IMO we should also add ◌̍ to the extIPA section, since it's not uncommon in tone transcription. Do you think it's worthwhile adding {{IPA link}}?

Erutuon, maybe this would address some of your concern above? We've had discussions on how to organize symbols on the IPA help page, and there seem to be some rather intractable difficulties. For example, you grouped ɧ in with h, but I might look for it under ŋ. You also put ɥ in with h, but I would look for it under y. Should ɟ go with j or with f? And where in the world would we put ɣ or θ? Etc. Graphically, ʌ, ɔ and ɯ match up with v, c and m, but that couldn't happen if we keep consonants and vowels separate. I'm not sure we could work it out so that it's more of a help than a hindrance. Presumably anyone using the IPA here has access to an IPA chart, and can hopefully recognize that the letter order is from the chart. That said, the diacritics are grouped by shape as well as by function.

— kwami (talk) 21:56, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

kwami: I like the addition of "headers". They make the list easier to read, in my opinion.

I wouldn't get rid of ɧ and ɶ. They're used in the Danish and Swedish IPA help pages, so editors will occasionally need them. They're rarely used, but some of the other IPA symbols in the menu are rare too.

Regarding the grouping of IPA symbols, perhaps the criterion of similarity and the criterion of articulatory features should be mixed, or, to say it another way, the organization should be a compromise between them. I'm not dogmatic about only using similarity as an organizing principle. So, ɥ could go with approximants, but all the rest of the h-like symbols could go together. As for ɣ and θ, they aren't very similar to other consonant symbols, so they could grouped according to place of articulation.

I like several of the changes in grouping that you've made. They make symbols easier to find. I'll just propose some further changes to the consonants to show what I'm thinking of.

'consonants: ɸβθð t̪d̪ʈɖ ʃʒɕʑʂʐ ɟɡɢ çʝɣχʁ ʡʔʕʢ ħʜɦɧ ɱɳɲŋɴ ʋɹɻɥɰʍ ʙⱱɾɽʀ ɫɬɮɺɭʎʟ ɓɗʄɠʛ ʘǀǃǂǁ

Perhaps you'll find this grouping strange. It's a mishmash of shape, place of articulation, and manner of articulation: labial and dental fricatives, coronal stops, coronal fricatives, dorsal stops, dorsal fricatives, question mark symbols, h-symbols, and then the rest is unchanged. And as a nod to you, ɧ is between the h-symbols and the nasals, so you don't have to look far from ŋ to find ɧ.

Let me know what you think. Anything not make sense to you? — Eru·tuon 21:48, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Okay, let's keep ɧ and ɶ then.

So you interleaved the fricatives and stops for labial, then coronal, then dorsal, but then abandon the pattern with the laryngeals. That really does make the supra-laryngeal consonants easier to find. I do have a concern with the laryngeals, though: with the string ʡʔʕʢ, and to a lesser extent with ħʜɦɧ, I would get confused as to which letter is which. Epiglottals and pharyngeals are so rare in the languages I usually deal with that I have trouble remembering which letters they take. I suspect that lumping especially ʡʔʕʢ together could result in a lot of mistranscriptions. It doesn't help that the official IPA chart doesn't even include the epiglottals in with the pulmonic consonants. (Which might be just as well, since they may be better characterized as trills than as fricatives. Moving them to the trill section would solve my tendency to mix them up, but might confuse others.)

BTW, the placement of the flap ɺ in with the laterals had been bugging me. Your motivation for ɧ made me realize ɺ would be better placed between the flaps and the laterals. (Also the alveolo-palatals were slightly misplaced.)

I would do s.t. more like this:

'consonants: ɸβθð t̪d̪ʈɖ ʃʒʂʐɕʑ ɟɡɢ çʝɣχʁ ʡʔ ħʕʜʢɦɧ ɱɳɲŋɴ ʋɹɻɥɰʍ ʙⱱɾɽʀ ɺ ɫɬɮɭʎʟ ɓɗʄɠʛ ʘǀǃǂǁ

or maybe

'consonants: ɸβθð t̪d̪ʈɖ ʃʒʂʐɕʑ ɟɡɢ çʝɣχʁ ʡʔ ħʕɦɧ ɱɳɲŋɴ ʋɹɻɥɰʍ ʙⱱɾɽʀʜʢ ɺ ɫɬɮɭʎʟ ɓɗʄɠʛ ʘǀǃǂǁ

I know that disrupts the pattern you're going for, but I would need s.t. like that to keep track of them.

Also, do we want to keep t̪d̪? The dental diacritic is now so easy to use that we don't really need them, but on the other hand it might be nice to retain their precomposed forms so that people don't mistakenly use the apical diacritic.

— kwami (talk) 22:03, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree that the "throat sounds" are confusing, and my arrangement of them doesn't really help. ħʕʔ are familiar to me because they're used in Arabic, but the epiglottals ʡʜʢ are a blur. I vote for your first suggestion, because separating the epiglottal trills from the rest of the laryngeals would confuse me. The arrangement makes sense: laryngeal stops, then laryngeal continuants (plus the bizarre Swedish sound), in the order pharyngeal, epiglottal, glottal.

Since this is a rather drastic change, I think we should get more feedback, so we don't freak people out. BTW, I spaced the fricatives so the sibilants and laryngeals are set off. I think that helps clarify things a little bit without rearranging anything.

Yeah, it's kind of odd to have the dental stops t̪d̪, but no dental nasal n̪. All three are used in the Australian languages IPA help key, but better to either omit them entirely or have a full set, t̪d̪n̪. Considering there are no other letters with place-of-articulation diacritics, perhaps best to get rid of them. — Eru·tuon 22:57, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

We could certainly add n̪. (And l̪?) As soon as I suggested removing them, I had second thoughts. I used to correct a *lot* of t̺ d̺ for t̪ d̪. I haven't seen that for a while -- maybe since t̪d̪ were added to edittools. Maybe just coincidence, a change in which articles I edit, but maybe the problem was solved. As for n̪, l̪, ɾ̪, etc, maybe having the examples of t̪d̪ in front of people is enough to prevent confusion. Also, most people using these characters are editing Romance languages, not Australian, and so don't use n̪. — kwami (talk) 23:15, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Could the diacritics be displayed larger (by default)? That would aid readability a lot, at least at resolutions similar to the one I'm using. --JorisvS (talk) 10:11, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

@JorisvS: Don't know. Pinged Edokter above. — kwami (talk) 20:05, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I can enlarge the IPA section, but only as a whole, not part of it. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 10:59, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Yep, it works for me. If you want to have separate symbols for dentals, it's a good idea to include the sibilants ⟨s̪, z̪⟩. Peter238 (talk) 12:29, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

How often are those used? There are a lot of potential dental consonants, and people are now asking for t̪ d̪ n̪ s̪ z̪, but I hardly ever see any of them on WP other than t̪ and d̪. The 'special characters' box above the edit window has lots of precomposed characters (including t̪ d̪ n̪ n̪̍ l̪ l̪̩), but the edittool list is already pretty long without them. The diacritic is easy to use now. Really, the reason I'd like to keep t̪ and d̪ is so people don't mess them up, and their example should be good enough for other instances.

Does anyone else think we should merge the stops and fricatives, or do you prefer what we have? @Peter238:, not sure if your "works for me" refers to the proposal at the top of this thread or also to the rearrangement of the fricatives. — kwami (talk) 20:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

They're used for pretty much every existing Slavic language (except Slovak and maybe Czech), and a good portion of other languages (French, Italian, Swedish). I use those all the time.

It's a response to "does the new format work correctly for you?". I really have no opinion about the rearrangement, to me it's good enough as it is. But then again - I'm so not organized that you really wouldn't want to see my room :P Peter238 (talk) 23:44, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I hate to add precomposed letters.

Still not sure about interlacing the stops & frics. It jumps back and forth a bit in place, but ordering strictly by place is not user-friendly:

'consonants: ɸβt̪d̪θðʃʒʈɖʂʐɕʑ ɟçʝɡɣɢχʁ ħʕʡʜʢʔɦɧ 

or, if we take out the dentals:

'consonants: ɸβθð ʃʒʈɖʂʐɕʑ ɟçʝɡɣɢχʁ ħʕʡʜʢʔɦɧ 

The stops get kinda lost.

We're not getting much feedback, and little support for proposals by anyone other than their proposers. How about I wait the weekend, and then, unless there's more substantial discussion, make a request on Monday for what we seem agreed on: adding subheaders and consequently separating the spacing from combining diacritics? — kwami (talk) 23:31, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 31 August 2015

The previous thread indicates that we have support for the following change of adding subsections to the IPA and reordering the diacritics:

'IPA': 'Consonants: t̪d̪ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ ɸβθð ʃʒʂʐɕʑ çʝɣχʁ ħʕʜʢɦɧ ɱɳɲŋɴ ʋɹɻɥɰʍ ʙⱱɾɽʀ ɺ ɫɬɮɭʎʟ ɓɗᶑʄɠʛ ʘǀǃǂǁ  Vowels: ɪʏɨʉɯʊ øɘɵɤ ə ɚ ɛœɜɝɞʌɔ æɶɐɑɒ  Spacing_diacritics: ʼˀˤᵝᵊᶢˠʰʱʲˡⁿᵑʷᶣ˞ ˈˌːˑ‿˕˔  Combining_diacritics: ̚ ̪ ̺ ̻ ̼ ̬ ̥  ̊ ̞ ̝ ̘ ̙ ̽ ̟ ̠  ̈ ̤ ̹ ̜ ̩ ̍  ̆ ̯  ̃ ̰ ͡ ͜  Tone_&_prosody:  ̋  ́  ̄  ̀  ̏  ̌  ̂ ᷄ ᷅ ᷇ ᷆ ᷈ ᷉ ˥˦˧˨˩ꜛꜜ↗↘‖  extIPA: ͈ ͉ ͎ ̣ ̫ ᷽ ͊ ͇˭ᵻᵿ {\{angle.bracket|+}}  {\{IPA|+}} {\{IPA.link|+}}',

(Not sure I formatted the subsections correctly; please modify as needed. Should preview on test wiki to verify spacing is adequate.)

There were a couple additional reasonable suggestions, but none garnered much support, so I think they should be left for another edit request if the proposers still want them. — kwami (talk) 19:11, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

 Done. I did make some minor formatting changes. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 19:24, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

@Edokter: Thanks! Unfortunately, <t̪d̪ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ> prints as a single block rather than as individual letters.

Also, the pair of diacritics < ̥ ̊ > would be more consistent with the others if it were in the opposite order:< ̊ ̥ >, and the grouping has gotten lost. Would this change in spacing work? (It is modified from your edit and so should include any changes you made.)

           'IPA': 'Consonants: ɱɳɲŋɴ : t̪ d̪ ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ : ɸβθð  ʃʒʂʐɕʑ  çʝɣχʁ  ħʕʜʢɦɧ : ʋɹɻɥɰʍ : ʙⱱɾɽʀ  ɺ  ɫɬɮɭʎʟ : ɓɗᶑʄɠʛ  ʘǀǃǂǁ  Vowels: ɪʏɨʉɯʊ : øɘɵɤ  ə ɚ  ɛœɜɝɞʌɔ : æɶɐɑɒ  Spacing_diacritics: ʼˀˤᵝᵊᶢˠʰʱʲˡⁿᵑʷᶣ˞  ˈˌːˑ‿˕˔  Combining_diacritics: ̚ ̪ ̺ ̻ ̼ ̬  ̊ ̥ ̞ ̝ ̘ ̙ ̽ ̟ ̠  ̈ ̤ ̹ ̜ ̩ ̍  ̆ ̯  ̃ ̰ ͡ ͜  Tone_&_prosody:  ̋  ́  ̄  ̀  ̏  ̌  ̂ ᷄ ᷅ ᷇ ᷆ ᷈ ᷉  ˥˦˧˨˩ꜛꜜ↗↘‖  extIPA: ͈ ͉ ͎ ̣ ̫ ᷽ ͊ ͇˭ᵻᵿ  {\{angle.bracket|+}} {\{IPA|+}} {\{IPA.link|+}}',

— kwami (talk) 20:39, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

The only formatting changes I made were to the section headers, not to any of the characters. Possibly a copy/paste error. I'm not home right now, so I will have to test tonight. (You could also ask for adminship on testwiki so you can do your own tests.) -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 10:55, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

The error was on my part. I'd changed the spacing when I rearranged things, which is why I thought it might need to be tested out. All I meant about your edit was that I'd copied it over so that you wouldn't need to repeat your changes. — kwami (talk) 17:58, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Not all charactres are recognized by MediaWiki as stand-alone characters apparently. I'll update it. I do have some concern about the size of (fric), (son) and (other); they are nearly illegible. Do they have to be that small? -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 18:46, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Take them out if you like. (Just leave double spaces.) They're an experiment. I was trying for sub-subheadings, and figured they'd be tried at TestWiki before being rolled out here. Maybe there's already a way of making sub-subheadings? Or maybe we could replace them with bullets. I don't know how to do that without having the colon in there, which (bullet-colon) would look weird.

Or maybe we could just separate the subsections with colons? I don't know if that would work, or if the colons would end up as links like the rest of the characters. Maybe double colons (::)? — kwami (talk) 20:44, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Any string ending in : is not linked but bolded. Not much to play with as no other formatting is allowed. Just the colon would works though. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 21:31, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

That works! Thank you. — kwami (talk) 22:26, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

On length and stress marks

I was thinking the stress and length symbols could be moved to the front of the Spacing diacritics part of the menu:

Spacing_diacritics: ˈˌːˑʼˀˤᵝᵊᶢˠʰʱʲˡⁿᵑʷᶣ˞ ‿˕˔

They're the diacritics most commonly used, and they're more general than the airstream mechanism and secondary articulation (and so on) diacritics. The way the menu is arranged now, it's a little hard to find them.

Alternatively, the length marks could be moved to the front of Spacing diacritics, but the stress marks could be moved to the front of Tone & prosody:

Spacing_diacritics: ːˑ ʼˀˤᵝᵊᶢˠʰʱʲˡⁿᵑʷᶣ˞ ‿˕˔
...
Tone_&_prosody: ˈˌ  ̋  ́  ̄  ̀  ̏  ̌  ̂ ᷄ ᷅ ᷇ ᷆ ᷈ ᷉ ˥˦˧˨˩ꜛꜜ↗↘‖

kwami, Peter238, JorisvS, Ƶ§œš¹: Any thoughts on which option should be chosen? — Eru·tuon 15:52, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I'll say it again: don't use the edit protected template to invite discussion; only use it when consensus has been reached and any admin can come along and make the edit. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 16:35, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, you're right. I've removed the edit request template and rephrased my comment. I'll post an edit request if other editors agree. — Eru·tuon 17:32, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. I'd go with the first one. Yes, stress is part of prosody. Problem is, the tone diacritics continue a run of combining diacritics before they get to the tone letters. So the stress marks would make more sense at the end of that section, which isn't what you're going for. And, as the only non-tone symbol in that section is ‖, if we can find another place to put that we can change the section heading to just "tone". Also, if we're going to make another change, I'd add a few more colons and fix the spacing before the templates. I didn't think it was worth making a request just for that. How does this look?:

          'IPA': 'Consonants: ɱɳɲŋɴ : t̪ d̪ ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ : ɸβθð  ʃʒʂʐɕʑ  çʝɣχʁ  ħʕʜʢɦɧ : ʋɹɻɥɰʍ : ʙⱱɾɽʀ  ɺ  ɫɬɮɭʎʟ : ɓɗᶑʄɠʛ  ʘǀǃǂǁ  Vowels: ɪʏɨʉɯʊ : øɘɵɤ  ə ɚ  ɛœɜɝɞʌɔ : æɶɐɑɒ  Spacing_diacritics: ˈˌːˑʼˀˤᵝᵊᶢˠʰʱʲˡⁿᵑʷᶣ˞‿˕˔  Combining_diacritics: ̚ ̪ ̺ ̻ ̼ ̬  ̊ ̥ ̞ ̝ ̘ ̙ ̽ ̟ ̠  ̈ ̤ ̹ ̜ ̍ ̩  ̆ ̯  ̃ ̰ ͡ ͜  Tone:  ̋  ́  ̄  ̀  ̏  ̌  ̂ ᷄ ᷅ ᷇ ᷆ ᷈ ᷉  ˥˦˧˨˩ꜛꜜ : ↗↘‖  extIPA: ͈ ͉ ͎ ̣ ̫ ͊ ᷽ ͇ : ˭ᵻᵿ  {\{angle.bracket|+}} {\{IPA|+}} {\{IPA.link|+}}',

(where to put prosodic boundary ‖? just fudge it and leave it at the end of 'tone', maybe spaced off from tone proper along with global pitch? I moved the nasals to the front, for a more natural transition of consonants per the convention of many of our inventory charts; can revert if there are objections.)

BTW, I'm not sure we can have a spaced block of just two characters. They seem to get combined into a single button. I put all the spacing diacritics in a single block, as they're quite visibly distinct without spacing (which really doesn't do much). — kwami (talk) 18:33, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm fine with whatever order people want, particularly as long as similarly-themed characters are placed together. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 19:13, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm also fine with both solutions. If I had to choose, I'd choose the first solution. Peter238 (talk) 07:24, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

We all seem to prefer the first solution if we prefer anything, and no-one objects to the extra colons, so I'll make the request for the full block. — kwami (talk) 17:42, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Per discussion above. — kwami (talk) 17:42, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

          'IPA': 'Consonants: ɱɳɲŋɴ : t̪ d̪ ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ : ɸβθð  ʃʒʂʐɕʑ  çʝɣχʁ  ħʕʜʢɦɧ : ʋɹɻɥɰʍ : ʙⱱɾɽʀ  ɺ  ɫɬɮɭʎʟ : ɓɗᶑʄɠʛ  ʘǀǃǂǁ  Vowels: ɪʏɨʉɯʊ : øɘɵɤ  ə ɚ  ɛœɜɝɞʌɔ : æɶɐɑɒ  Spacing_diacritics: ˈˌːˑʼˀˤᵝᵊᶢˠʰʱʲˡⁿᵑʷᶣ˞‿˕˔  Combining_diacritics: ̚ ̪ ̺ ̻ ̼ ̬  ̊ ̥ ̞ ̝ ̘ ̙ ̽ ̟ ̠  ̈ ̤ ̹ ̜ ̍ ̩  ̆ ̯  ̃ ̰ ͡ ͜  Tone:  ̋  ́  ̄  ̀  ̏  ̌  ̂ ᷄ ᷅ ᷇ ᷆ ᷈ ᷉  ˥˦˧˨˩ꜛꜜ : ↗↘‖  extIPA: ͈ ͉ ͎ ̣ ̫ ͊ ᷽ ͇ : ˭ᵻᵿ  {\{angle.bracket|+}} {\{IPA|+}} {\{IPA.link|+}}',

 Done. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 18:54, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Super/subscripts

@Edokter: Could you test if this would work? — kwami (talk) 17:54, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

          'Super & subscript': 'ᴬᴭᴱᴲᴵᴼᴽᵁ  ᴮᴯᴰᴳᴴᴶᴷᴸᴹᴺᴾᴿᵀⱽᵂ  ᵃᵄᵅᶛᵉᵊᵋᵌⁱᶤᶦᶧᵒᶱᵓꟹᵘᶶᶷᶸ  ᵇᶜᶝᵈᶞᶠᵍᶢʰʱʲᶨᶡᵏˡᶪᶩᶫᵐᶬⁿᶮᶯᵑᶰᵖʳʴʵʶˢᶳᶴᵗᶵᵛᶺʷᵚᶭˣʸᶣᶻᶼᶽᶾ  ˀˁˤ  ᵝᵞˠᵟᵋᶿᶥᶹᵠᶲᵡ  ⁽⁾ꜝꜞ⁺⁻⁼⁄  Subscript: ₐₑₔᵢₒᵤ  ₕⱼₖₗₘₙₚᵣₛₜᵥₓ  ᵦᵧᵨᵩᵪ  ₍₎ꜟ₊₋₌  Combining: ͣ ͤ ͥ ͦ ͧ   ͨ ͩ ͪ ͫ ͬ ͭ ͮ ͯ   ᷊  {\{Unicode|+}}',

 [removed digits: ⁰¹²³⁴⁵⁶⁷⁸⁹ ₀₁₂₃₄₅₆₇₈₉⏨]

I think the combining characters need to be spaced somehow; they show up stacked. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 18:52, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

@Edokter: How's that? — kwami (talk) 22:17, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Much better! Now on test.wiki. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 20:32, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Cap ⱽ is missing, and I'm not sure how many people will see the combining diacritics (e.g. uͦ) properly. Does that look good to you? (Should be an o on top of a u.) — kwami (talk) 03:45, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Why do we need these? The MOS, e.g. WP:SUPSCRIPT, explicitly prohibits them, and there are many ways to generate them without using special characters, such as HTML or templates. Occasionally I’ve had reason to remove and replace them with proper superscripts, and I can only see them becoming far more widespread if they are present in the edit tools. which editors will probably encounter before they look at the MOS.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 21:54, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

That's a historical doc, not part of the MOS. We've always used hard-coded superscripts for IPA. They're necessary whenever we want our text to be copy&paste friendly. But we shouldn't implement this if it's going to cause problems. — kwami (talk) 03:45, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Didn't notice it was historical; I suspect as it was merged into the main MOS as the same instruction appears there, briefly under MOS:#Units of measurement and in more detail at MOS:MATH#Superscripts and subscripts. As for copying and pasting if you see something like x^{β + γ} and want to copy the superscript to e.g. look up or copy it elsewhere you want to be copying β + γ, not Unicode characters that are hard-superscripted.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 04:15, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

@JohnBlackburne: Hard-coded super & subscripts are intended for where the semantics changes compared to the base letter. E.g. ʷ is not a [w] sound but labialization of another sound. If you were to copy & paste a soft-coded superscript w you would end up with the wrong sound. So it's different from algebra, where a superscript beta is the same symbol as a non-superscript beta. All the superscript letters in Unicode have demonstrated use with distinct semantics. The MOS just says that powers etc. should be soft-coded. We might be able to take care of that by removing the digits from the menu. — kwami (talk) 05:42, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

@Edokter: Could you test again? Removed the digits per John's objection, put back the super V and added a sub j I had overlooked. — kwami (talk) 22:30, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Will do when I get home. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 10:54, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Done on testwiki. Sorry it slipped my mind. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 10:00, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Works well. Thanks. Put +-= back in, as they can be used w/o digits. — kwami (talk) 17:22, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 4 February 2016

Please add to Wiki markup: the <kbd> tag. (mw:Documentation/Style guide) Please add to Wiki escape: (new section) HTML entities for brackets [] {} <> and pipe |, and #, and also a <nowiki/>, — CpiralCpiral 06:59, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Cpiral, please make your requested edit at MediaWiki talk:Edittools/sandbox then reactivate the editrequest tag above. — xaosflux ^Talk 06:07, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 27 January 2017

Please add the characters ā ī ū to the beginning of the Transliteration part of the Arabic menu, and á to the end (after ẗ). They are needed for transliterating long vowels. (I'm confused about which EditTools page the Arabic menu is on, so the edit request template might have the wrong one.) — Eru·tuon 07:03, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Arabic is in MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert-core.js. Ruslik_Zero 20:11, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Updated request. — Eru·tuon 22:24, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:58, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 16 April 2017

In English phonemic transcription on Wikipedia, ⟨ɨ, ʉ⟩ are no longer used and have been replaced with ⟨ᵻ, ᵿ⟩, and ⟨ɵ⟩ is now deprecated. Hence "ɨ ɵ ʉ" in line 31 needs to be replaced with "ᵻ ᵿ".Nardog (talk) 15:13, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

 Done Ruslik_Zero 19:57, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 8 May 2017

Add the code, not the display:

<span style=""></span>

to the page in order to make it easy to insert <span style=""></span> into the edit box. — Mr. Guye (talk) (My aftermath) 01:48, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Not done for now, as I don't see the need for this clarified in the request. There has to be a good sensible reason why an editor needs this, and unless you are a template editor, generally you won't need this as a casual editor. Also where does this end ? There are hundreds of HTML tags and even more attributes. If you are capable enough to write HTML, you should be capable enough to write it out. If you are not, then maybe, you should just not be tempted to inserting this stuff into articles. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 08:59, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Chrome forgets current position

An issue has been reported at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Incorrect positions of en-dashes. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:00, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Filed as phab:T166708. Thanks. Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 17:32, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 13 June 2017

• MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert-core.js

Line 31:

            'IPA (English)': 'ˈ ˌ ŋ ɡ tʃ dʒ ʃ ʒ θ ð ʔ  iː ɪ uː ʊ ʌ ɜr eɪ ɛ æ oʊ ɒ ɔː ɔɪ ɔr ɑː ɑr aɪ aʊ  ə ər ᵻ ᵿ {\{angle.bracket|+}}  {\{IPAc-en|+}} {\{IPA-en|+}} {\{IPA|+}}',

to:

            'IPA (English)': 'ˈ ˌ  ŋ ɡ tʃ dʒ ʃ ʒ θ ð ʔ  ɑː ɑːr ɒ æ aɪ aʊ ɛ eɪ ɪ iː ɔː ɔːr ɔɪ oʊ ɔər ʊ uː ʌ ɜːr  ə ər ᵻ ᵿ ɒ̃  {\{IPAc-en|+}} {\{IPA-en|+}} {\{IPA|+}}  {\{angle.bracket|+}}',

per Help:IPA for English. This order makes it way more intuitive. Nardog (talk) 16:40, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

No objection so done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:50, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

@MSGJ: Thanks. But unfortunately ɑːr, ɔːr, ɔər, ɜːr are shown as separate letters despite my intention. I'll seek help at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical). Nardog (talk) 12:50, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Shall I revert? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:10, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

@MSGJ: I don't think that's necessary right now, although, if we couldn't figure out how to fix it, maybe we should remove ɑːr, ɔːr, ɔər, ɜːr. But let's see what we can do for the time being. Nardog (talk) 13:15, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

@MSGJ: Stupidly, I just realized ɑːr, ɔːr, ɔər, ɜːr are the only ones that consist of more than two letters. Seems like the backslash suppresses the separation. So please change it to:

            'IPA (English)': 'ˈ ˌ  ŋ ɡ tʃ dʒ ʃ ʒ θ ð ʔ  ɑː ɑː\r ɒ æ aɪ aʊ ɛ eɪ ɪ iː ɔː ɔː\r ɔɪ oʊ ɔə\r ʊ uː ʌ ɜː\r  ə ər ᵻ ᵿ ɒ̃ æ̃  {\{IPAc-en|+}} {\{IPA-en|+}} {\{IPA|+}}  {\{angle.bracket|+}}',

which also reflects the latest change made per Help talk:IPA for English#Nasal vowels. Nardog (talk) 02:42, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Check now? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:48, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

@MSGJ: Oh no, now the entire row of "IPA (English)" is gone. Maybe the position where I inserted the backslashes was wrong?

            'IPA (English)': 'ˈ ˌ  ŋ ɡ tʃ dʒ ʃ ʒ θ ð ʔ  ɑː ɑ\ːr ɒ æ aɪ aʊ ɛ eɪ ɪ iː ɔː ɔ\ːr ɔɪ oʊ ɔ\ər ʊ uː ʌ ɜ\ːr  ə ər ᵻ ᵿ ɒ̃ æ̃  {\{IPAc-en|+}} {\{IPA-en|+}} {\{IPA|+}}  {\{angle.bracket|+}}',

If this doesn't work, we will have to give up on the four. Thanks for your patience. Nardog (talk) 01:02, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

 Undone @Nardog:, @MSGJ: the last change was undone. — xaosflux ^Talk 02:48, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: Well, could you try the above code while you're at it if you're also an admin? Nardog (talk) 02:54, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

 Done @Nardog: try now. — xaosflux ^Talk 02:58, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: Thank you. Hmm, it looks like even the backslashes have no effect on it whatsoever.

            'IPA (English)': 'ˈ ˌ  ŋ ɡ tʃ dʒ ʃ ʒ θ ð ʔ  ɑː ɒ æ aɪ aʊ ɛ eɪ ɪ iː ɔː ɔɪ oʊ ʊ uː ʌ ɜr  ə ər ᵻ ᵿ ɒ̃ æ̃  {\{IPAc-en|+}} {\{IPA-en|+}} {\{IPA|+}}  {\{angle.bracket|+}}',

Let's settle with this. Nardog (talk) 03:08, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

 Done @Nardog: try now. — xaosflux ^Talk 03:11, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Confirmed. @MSGJ and Xaosflux: Thank you both. Nardog (talk) 03:15, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Add syntaxhighlight tag

It is a commonly used tag. Golopotw (talk) 04:45, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Please explain why this thing exist

(I mean source of MediaWiki:Edittools)

From the source it say

This div gets automatically replaced with the actual edit tools by the code in MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert.js. Please make any changes there as well. Any content in this div is only shown to users with JavaScript turned off (or unsupported).

My understanding is that this page exists as a cosmetic makeup for javascript-less users. If my understanding is true, then 2 problems arises

1. Javascript-less users, who can not use the tool, should not see the tool.
2. When I disable javascript on Chrome, this thing is not shown.

Golopotw (talk) 04:35, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

It looks like it was probably broken by the fix for phab:T42284. To fix it, it looks like we'd need to move MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert-core.css to something like MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert-styles.css and change the relevant bit of MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition to something like

* charinsert-core[ResourceLoader|hidden|peers=charinsert-styles|dependencies=mediawiki.toolbar,jquery.textSelection,user]|charinsert-core.js
* charinsert-styles[ResourceLoader|hidden|type=styles]|charinsert-styles.css

Although I haven't actually tested that yet. Anomie⚔ 12:44, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Or maybe it was broken by Special:Diff/598267315 before phab:T42284 got a chance to break it. Anyway, it should be fixed now. You may need to bypass your cache. Anomie⚔ 15:27, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert-core.js uses deprecated mw.toolbar

The script causes warnings such as

Helder 12:46, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Anyone have a suggestion for a literal period?

I wish to have a drop in with a period, however, all my attempts fail and each treats it as a space, even when escaped. Tried . though that shows literally rather than as a period. Suggestions? — billinghurst sDrewth 23:02, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Have you tried three backslashes to escape it? \\\. - MrX 🖋 23:43, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Not working with new MediaWiki version

This edittools and MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert.js was copied to ca.wiki. From yesterday ca.wiki has MediaWiki version 1.33.0-wmf.2 as a guinea pig to be updated today on other Wikipedias. The gadget is not working any more on ca.wiki, probably because it is uploaded as ext.gadget. Recently is was announced the restriction of external javascript. Any ideas? --Vriullop (talk) 11:04, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Forget it, the culprit was mediawiki.toolbar Special:Diff/852708602. --Vriullop (talk) 12:06, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Vriullop, in that case, you might also want to check out the recent changes to MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert-core.js —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:45, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, gadget updated. It is a nightmare to follow MediaWiki changes. --Vriullop (talk) 13:08, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Interface-protected edit request on 28 January 2019

A request, since I no longer seem to have editing rights here.

At MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert-core.js, under 'Latin', we need the three modifier letter commas/apostrophes from the Spacing Modifier Letters block (U+02BB, 02BC, 02BD), which look like single quotation marks but are encoded as letters and behave as such. A common usage is 02BB for the ʻokina that's used in many Hawaiian words and names -- the opening single quote mark currently listed under 'Symbols' is inappropriate for Unicode text as it is encoded as punctuation rather than as a letter.

This year, ISO-693 language names with 'apostrophes' in them are being changed from ASCII <'> and the punctuation apostrophe to the Unicode modifier letters, just as clicks were changed from punctuation marks to Unicode click letters last year. But, in general, it is often best practice to use the correct letters rather than ASCII or punctuation substitutes. We should support them in the edit window so editors can access them readily. (The click letters are already listed in the IPA window, and I don't think we need them repeated under Latin, as not many editors would need them.)

I would suggest labeling each of the modifier letters so that editors can distinguish them easily, since they tend to look similar at small font sizes. I propose appending at the end of the list of Latin letters,

 saltillo: Ꞌ ꞌ ʻokina: ʻ hamza: ʼ ayin: ʽ 

as the shortest labels I can think of, though they all have other uses (the "ʻokina" is also used for aspiration in the Wade-Giles system for transcribing Chinese, the "hamza" is used as a general glottal stop as well as in various Latin digraphs, etc.) — kwami (talk) 23:26, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

 Not done (yet) @Kwamikagami: I created a user-sandbox for you at User:Kwamikagami/sandbox/Gadget-charinsert-core.js, please make the edits there so we can see exactly what you would like done. Once ready, please reply here and reactivate the edit request template above. Thank you, — xaosflux ^Talk 02:12, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: Okay, done. The proposed change can be seen here.

BTW, there's a template {{okina}} to produce the first of them, so editors can be sure they're inserting the correct character rather than using the punctuation mark by mistake, but that template is not safe to use in citation templates and often I think it would be more convenient in the edit window. — kwami (talk) 20:19, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: think this is going to need a bit more consideration, we don't put labels in this table to name any other symbol - why are these so special? — xaosflux ^Talk 03:27, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: Only because they are easy to confuse at small font sizes. It was just a suggestion. By all means, leave out the labels if you think that would be better. The saltillos, Ꞌ ꞌ, are an upper-case–lower-case pair, the others are unicase.

Here is the proposal without labels. If you're uncertain about the labels, I wouldn't mind having the bare characters added while you think about it. — kwami (talk) 04:23, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done — xaosflux ^Talk 21:57, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! — kwami (talk) 01:27, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Question

I wonder, instead of 'click on the character or tag to insert it into the edit window', would it be possible for the pop-up to display the name of the character? The IPA section, for example, is rather difficult to read as it currently is. Or would that require too much re-engineering? — kwami (talk) 01:28, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

I've wanted something like this. A draft is at User:Erutuon/scripts/charinsert-core.js. It seems to work. It adds tooltips to the links that contain only one code point. You can test it by disabling Charinsert in the Gadgets tab of your Preferences and then entering importScript('User:Erutuon/scripts/charinsert-core.js'), importStylesheet('MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert-styles.css'); in your browser's JavaScript console or in your common.js. — Eru·tuon 03:06, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

I used Module:Unicode data on Wiktionary (the one on Wikipedia will work too) to get the code point names. it can be updated using Module:Sandbox/Erutuon/charinsert names. — Eru·tuon 03:07, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Actually, having charinsert-core just add a class to identify the charinsert links, so that another script can locate them and add the tooltips, would be neater, because the code point names add more than 46 kilobytes of clutter to the page. — Eru·tuon 04:02, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

@Erutuon: While we're at it, can we also reconsider the way the script formats the strings? It appears that currently a sequence of non-ASCII characters can only form a button if it's only one or two characters, which has prevented us from adding ⟨ɜːr⟩ to "IPA (English)" and has made no sense to me. Nardog (talk) 04:15, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

@Nardog: Hmm, actually, doing ɜːr+ achieves that. — Eru·tuon 08:10, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Oh, that's how it works! Thanks. Nardog (talk) 01:04, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Okay, created a version, User:Erutuon/scripts/charinsert-names.js, that works with the unmodified Charinsert script. — Eru·tuon 09:20, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Do I need to refresh or something? Turned off the editor in prefs and added this last line to my js, but nothing's changed.

For the pop-ups, the clutter could be greatly reduced by removing redundant wording. No need to say everything in the Latin block is Latin, for example, and rather than "Latin capital letter a with acute" and "Latin small letter a with acute", we could just say "A-acute" and "a-acute". That should be all the info anyone needs. If you think people will want the Unicode values, it would be simpler to name them directly, "193 A-acute" and "225 a-acute". — kwami (talk) 20:38, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: Hmm, it didn't work because you just entered the name of the page in your JavaScript file, but you should probably try the newer version of the script anyway. Make sure the edit toolbar and the Charinsert gadget are enabled and that you're seeing the Charinsert box again, and then add importScript('User:Erutuon/scripts/charinsert-names.js'); to your common.js. — Eru·tuon 21:32, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I wasn't paying attention. Still no change, though. — kwami (talk) 21:40, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

So the Charinsert box is showing up, but no tooltips (like "LATIN SMALL LETTER M WITH HOOK" for ɱ) when you put your mouse over one of the Charinsert links? Any error messages in your browser's JavaScript console? — Eru·tuon 21:53, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Any of the names that are displayed for the code points can be changed. They are right in the file (User:Erutuon/scripts/charinsert-names.js). However, the script that compiles the list of names currently just outputs the official Unicode names ("LATIN SMALL LETTER WITH ACUTE" rather than "a-acute") so the next time the list needs to be updated, it would have to be modified so that it retains the modified names. I agree that "a-acute" is much more readable.

It would be pretty easy to add the code points to the tooltip, either by default or user preference. I think the official U+hex format of the code point (U+00E1 rather than 225) would be more familiar though. — Eru·tuon 21:50, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Erutuon, "so the next time the list needs to be updated, it would have to be modified so that it retains the modified names. I agree that "a-acute" is much more readable.". note: this is sort of why that functionality is not provided by default. Especially not in core where not only we can then start doing this for 137000 characters, but also multiplied by up to potentially 300 languages ;) —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 08:45, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes. Charinsert box is the same, the tooltip is the default 'click on character ...'. Exactly as it was before. That's why I wondered if I needed to refresh somehow. I just turned it off under Gadgets, confirmed the box was gone, then back on, and still no change. Though enabling/disabling the editing toolbar under Preferences has no effect on the box.

Agreed, hex would be better IMO. But it doesn't need to be the full U+00E1. Just 'E1' should be sufficient, as that's all you need for the &#x...; coding. I think minimal wording is best, esp. if the editor has to opt in for the Unicode values. — kwami (talk) 23:50, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Ahh, yeah, the bare value could be better if the purpose is for HTML numerical character references. Dunno if it would confuse people.

I need more information to figure out what's going wrong. Any message in the browser console? In Firefox (Linux) I get it up with Ctrl+Shift+K. If you don't mind telling me, what browser and operating system are you using? — Eru·tuon 00:46, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

I don't think it would be confusing if they had to opt in, as then they would know what they were getting and why. It would be if it were the default display.

MS10 with FF, both up to date. No messages that I can see, other that a bunch of stuff about pages using deprecated modules, which don't change when I turn the box or gadget off & on. — kwami (talk) 07:21, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I just had my script not work for me. On one page it didn't work, on another it did. Not sure what's going on. Perhaps it's about the relative execution time of the charinsert-core script and my script. — Eru·tuon 08:19, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Interface-protected edit request on 26 February 2019

A few more additions to the Latin alphabet, in keeping with last month's. Diff here.[2] (This diff is based on the code left on my page from last month. FYI in case you've made other changes since then.)

These letters are used in a number of Native American languages. ⟨Ɂ ɂ⟩ are capital and l.c. glottal stop, equivalent in function though different in shape from the saltillo we added last month. The ⟨ɂ⟩ made headlines when a Chipewyan woman was not allowed to give her daughter a Chipewyan name, despite Chipewyan supposedly being an official language of the province, because Canadian govt computer systems didn't support this letter. So I think we should. (In Seneca, ⟨ˀ⟩ is used instead, but it's already available in the IPA section of charinsert.) ⟨꞉⟩ and ⟨ꞏ⟩ are a colon and half-colon defined as alphabetic letters rather than as a punctuation marks. They're used in a number of Native American languages for long vowels, and are distinct from the ASCII colon in the same way -- and for the same reasons -- that Hawaiian ʻokina (which we added last month) is distinct from an apostrophe/quotation mark. They're not a case pair, but rather some languages use the two-dot and some the one-dot variant. — kwami (talk) 04:04, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done — xaosflux ^Talk 12:23, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! — kwami (talk) 20:02, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Interface-protected edit request on 31 January 2019 (problematic invisible character)

I wanted to make this request separately, in case there's some technical reason for having the template the way it is.

In the 'Latin' section, there's an extra clickable space between the pair of letters Ị and ị that inserts a thinspace. When editing the .js code, this invisible character is displayed as a pink space with a red dot in the middle, where a simple space would be expected.

There's no obvious reason why thinspace should be provided here, in the middle of the alphabet, and since it's not labeled, the user can't tell what it is. I don't know if for some reason maybe the pair of letters Ị and ị won't display properly otherwise. I suggest that we might want to change

Ị ị

to

Ị ị

. The proposed change can be seen here. — kwami (talk) 19:34, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Support Looks like it was added in Special:Diff/514433347 (by me, oops) with edit summary "Sync somewhat with MediaWiki:Edittools", which (presumably) has a thin space there for formatting purposes. There seems to be no reason for it here, it looks like it was a copy-paste error due to it being visually very similar to a standard space. Anomie⚔ 22:11, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

 Done — xaosflux ^Talk 23:58, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: Looks like you accidentally undid it with Special:Diff/881335146. Anomie⚔ 03:14, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

@Anomie: thanks for the note, too many edit requests! Re-applied this fix. — xaosflux ^Talk 03:29, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: You did it again with Special:Diff/885341869... Anomie⚔ 23:59, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done thanks for the note @Anomie:. — xaosflux ^Talk 00:21, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Interface-protected edit request on 4 April 2019

Please replace line 46 with

            'IPA (English)': 'ˈ ˌ  ŋ ɡ tʃ dʒ ʃ ʒ θ ð ʔ  ɑː ɒ æ aɪ aʊ ɛ ɛər+ eɪ ɪ ɪər+ iː ɔː ɔɪ oʊ ʊ ʊər+ uː ʌ ɜːr+  ə ər  ɒ̃ æ̃  {\{IPAc-en|+}} {\{IPA|+}} {\{angle.bracket|+}}',

per recent changes made to Help:IPA/English (see Help talk:IPA/English/Archive 17#Inconsistency in length marks and Help talk:IPA/English/Archive 21#RfC: Proposed deprecation of /ᵻ, ᵿ/), and the fact that {{IPA-en}} has no use in the main namespace any longer (compare Special:Search/hastemplate:IPAc-en vs. Special:Search/hastemplate:IPA-en). Nardog (talk) 22:59, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Nardog, can you format that in the style as currently used in the source esp. with the nbsp's etc ? It's a bit difficult to figure out what has changed here for me otherwise... —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 10:44, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

@TheDJ: I honestly don't know what you mean by that, but here's the diff of the proposed change, if that helps. Nardog (talk) 13:13, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Nardog - I've made the change requested (see the diff here). Take a look and verify that everything looks correct, and let me know. If something is incorrect, please let me know immediately. :-) Thanks - ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:10, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

@Oshwah: Thanks, it's working properly for me. Nardog (talk) 18:13, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Nardog - Great! Thanks for letting me know. :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:14, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Replace with something else when editing code

When a user is editing a Lua module or a templatestyles page, the normal edittools aren't particularly useful. What do people think of replacing it with a simple "cheatsheet" for the relevant programming languages, when such a page is being edited? --Yair rand (talk) 22:35, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

ſ

I missed long s from the Latin characters list. It can be handy when quoting old texts. Please consider including it. Thanks to the customization instructions, I was able to do it for myself. --Error (talk) 11:32, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

missing IPA tone letters

I recently discovered that the reversed Chao tone letters that we use for tone sandhi are officially part of the IPA, they're just not on the IPA summary chart. This according to the Report of the Kiel Convention¹ and JIPA commentaries on the results of Kiel, incl. by Ian Maddieson.² So, could you please change the sequence

˥˦˧˨˩ꜛꜜ :

in the IPA section to

˥˦˧˨˩ꜛꜜ꜒꜓꜔꜕꜖ :

(I think it's advisable to have the two series separated by something like the step marks, as here, since they're used for different things.)

Thanks — kwami (talk) 21:50, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

¹ P.J. Roach (December 1989) Report on the 1989 Kiel Convention, JIPA 19.2, p. 75: "Tone letters" (following Chao 1933): these marks are to be placed before or after the segmental material. The report of the suprasegmentals group also suggested that the Chao tone marks may be optionally attached to a vertical reference line, in which case narrow phonetic mark should precede the line and broad/phonological marks follow the reference line.

² Ian Maddieson (December 1990) The transcription of tone in the IPA, JIPA 20.2, p. 31, notes that these are called "reversed tone letters" and reports that a convention within the Chao tradition was also endorsed, namely, that if the tone bar was placed to the right of the reference stave a more 'phonetic' transcription was intended than when the normal tone letter was used with the bar to the left of the reference stave.

@Kwamikagami: Whatever those sequences are, they are not rendering on multiple browsers - just appear as unknown unicode squares - until there is wider browser support for these symbols they won't be very useful. — xaosflux ^Talk 17:31, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

The browser has nothing to do with it. It's a font issue. They're widely used for Hokkien on Wiktionary. Like other IPA, they should be used in IPA templates. Are they still illegible for you like this: ˥˦˧˨˩ꜛꜜ꜒꜓꜔꜕꜖? — kwami (talk) 21:28, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: just empty boxes on multiple computers and browsers - unlike every other character in the edittools right now. — xaosflux ^Talk 21:33, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Again, the computers and browsers have nothing to do with it. You evidently don't have a full IPA font like Charis or Gentium Plus installed. I'm checking. Liberation and TNR don't provide full IPA support, nor does Gentium Basic. — kwami (talk) 21:49, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Spaces not possible after cursor operator

I am trying to realize an entry for the templates {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}, which are used like this:

{{collapse top}}
Sample
{{collapse bottom}}

Added to my User:Escalatr/common.js

// Add custom CharInsert entries
window.charinsertCustom = {
 "Custom": ' {\{collapse.top}}+{\{collapse.bottom}}',
};

• I would like to put the cursor operator + between both {{collapse}}-tags, however it seems the cursor operator always disables any following space operator .
  • I get the entry {{collapse top}}{{collapse.bottom}} (. instead of a space between collapse and bottom)
  • It works fine if I remove the + operator

Am I missing something? Is there any workaround? (I know, it is a minor issue, but still maybe)--Escalatr (talk) 15:49, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

I can replicate the bug on my side. The dots are converted to spaces only before the plus sign. Browser: Firefox 82.0.3 (64-bit) on Ubuntu. —⁠andrybak (talk) 16:23, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Try collapse_bottom instead of collapse.bottom. Nardog (talk) 10:54, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Great, underscores work! Thanks --Escalatr (talk) 07:27, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Please remove curly quote marks

Please remove the curly quote marks, ‘+’ and “+”, from this tool. Per MOS:CURLY, they should not be used on en.WP. Please note that this is not a request to remove the prime and double-prime marks. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:36, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

@Jonesey95: just checking, this is from the "Symbols" line and are specifically this section: ‘ ’ “ ” correct? — xaosflux ^Talk 18:06, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct. I think the change needs to be made in this page and also in the Symbols line of MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert-core.js. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:17, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

 Done — xaosflux ^Talk 13:17, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Syntax highlighting and dialog boxes break CharInsert

Open any article in the 2010 editor. Turn on the default syntax highlighting and press the "Link" or "Images and media" button in toolbar. Close the dialog, and attempt to insert anything from CharInsert. – Srđan (talk) 15:22, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

@Srđan: This may have been fixed with this edit. Cannot reproduce as of now. – SD0001 (talk) 10:46, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Interface-protected edit request on 4 December 2021

Replacing lines 168 to 174 with

                } else {
                    var chars = Array.from(token);
                    if ( chars.length > 2 && token.charCodeAt( 0 ) > 127 ) { // a string of insertable characters
                        for ( var j = 0; j < chars.length; j++ ) {
                            addLink( chars[ j ], '' );
                        }
                    } else {
                        addLink( token, '' );
                    }
                }

as discussed at WP:VPT#Unicode characters outside the BMP in MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert-core.js should fix the surrogate code unit problem mentioned above. — Eru·tuon 20:20, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done — xaosflux ^Talk 03:52, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Planetary symbols

Under 'Symbols', could we add the planetary symbols? I'm thinking:

 ☉ · ☾ · ☽ · ☿ · ♀ · 🜨 · ♁ · ♂ · ⚳ · ⚴ · ⚶ · ♃ · ♄ · ⛢ · ♅ · ♆ · ♇ · ⯓ · ⯰ · ⯲

♀ · ♂ are of course used in biology as well. If that's too many, we could leave out the alt symbols and the large planetoids, which aren't used as much as the others:

 ☉ · ☾ · ☿ · ♀ · 🜨 · ♂ · ♃ · ♄ · ⛢ · ♆ 

When ppl choose symbols from some other source, there tend to be errors like using the mathematical circled plus instead of the Earth symbol.

I don't know if it matters very much where we put them, but I thought maybe near the end, just before © ® ™ ◌. — kwami (talk) 22:45, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

• 6,14,18,19,20 from the first list don't even render on 3 browsers I tried; on the second list 5,9 (duplicates from the first list) have the same issue. As far as usage - how often do we expect someone will ever enter these in to the source editor? — xaosflux ^Talk 00:11, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

The problem isn't your browser, but your fonts. You don't have a font that has the symbols for Earth or Uranus, which is a bit odd, since you have the asteroids. The symbol for Uranus has been supported since Unicode 6! The last three characters in the first list are more recent (2016).

They're common in astronomy and astrology articles. They're ubiquitous in astrology, and in astronomy it's very common to give masses of stars in terms of M_☉ (solar masses) and of planets in terms of M_🜨 (Earth masses). Plus in botany ♀ and ♂ are quite common.

Doesn't WP have webfonts for ppl who don't have necessary characters, for example for physical constants in physics articles, or mathematical symbols in math articles? That issue should be addressed regardless, if there are very many users like yourself who lack basic characters we use in our articles. Do you know where I would ask about that? — kwami (talk) 01:21, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, I can see all the characters except for the last three on the first list (astrological Pluto / Pluto the dwarf planet, Eris, and Sedna). Double sharp (talk) 14:29, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

We even have articles on the units Earth mass and solar mass, with these in the standard symbols. Double sharp (talk) 21:47, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

At the very least, I think the symbols for the Sun and Earth (ubiquitous in astronomy), plus Mars and Venus (ubiquitous in biology) should be added. Though once you get there, then at least version 2 with all the pre-2006 planets seems logical. Double sharp (talk) 19:47, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, even just those four would be a help. — kwami (talk) 21:04, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Oh, re "pre-2006": Pluto was about the same order of commonness as the others when it was considered a planet, I think. See for example the charts in John S. Lewis' Physics and Chemistry of the Solar System (2nd edition, 2004). But since then, I think it's become less common: e.g. this article (2016) uses the symbols for Mercury through Neptune in a chart (Fig. 3), but not Pluto even though its data point is there too. (It also doesn't use the symbol for the Moon, though, so YMMV on how important that is.) So, yeah, version 2 is OK with me, though version 1 would be nice. Double sharp (talk) 21:34, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Might be best to hold off on this, if my conjecture regarding the failure of the double accidentals is right. 🜨 (the Earth symbol) is U+1F728, outside the BMP. Double sharp (talk) 16:15, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Now that the BMP problem is fixed, could I request that Sol + Luna + major planets be added (the 2nd option above)?

 ☉ · ☾ · ☿ · ♀ · 🜨 · ♂ · ♃ · ♄ · ⛢ · ♆ 

Double sharp (talk) 10:21, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

• See below. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:20, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Double-sharp and double-flat

I would like to propose that the double accidentals be added. Currently we have

♭ · ♯ · ♮

showing the three most common accidentals in common-practice Western musical notation (flat, sharp, and natural), but this isn't enough for referring to notes especially in 19th-century music which often makes heavier use of such alterations. Often double flats (𝄫) and double sharps (𝄪) are needed.

Also, the current order doesn't go from lowest to highest alteration, so I find it a bit unintuitive. Therefore I would suggest:

𝄫 · ♭ · ♮ · ♯ · 𝄪

as a more logical sequence.

Until recently 𝄫 and 𝄪 did not show up on most systems, so {{Music}} uses images for them. The huge number of links to the images File:Doubleflat.svg (𝄫) and File:DoubleSharp.svg (𝄪) suggests that these could receive heavy use now that they are showing up more generally.

(And yes, I know my username is being entertainingly appropriate for this!) Double sharp (talk) 19:55, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

I see both of those and I don't have any special musical fonts on my system. — kwami (talk) 21:05, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, I don't see either of those as images - just UTF numbers. — xaosflux ^Talk 21:33, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, they've been in Unicode since version 3.1, way back in 2001. Admittedly in Plane 1 rather than Plane 0. Double sharp (talk) 21:39, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

To some extent the reader is responsible for being able to access the internet. E.g. if you're into music, you'll want to install fonts that include musical symbols; if you're into astronomy or astrology, or chess, you'll want to install fonts that include those symbols. I suspect there are a lot of readers of WP that see UTF numbers for many of the symbols we already have under the "IPA" section of EditTools. I'm on a new computer, and many of the articles I used to be able to read are now full of UTF numbers. (In fact, many of my off-line documents I wrote myself now display as a bunch of UTF numbers.) Eventually I'll get around to installing fonts for Kannada etc. But meanwhile WP should still make proper Unicode as accessible as possible. That's why we tag certain articles with notices that the user might need additional fonts to read them. — kwami (talk) 22:08, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, I can see pretty much everything in Musical Symbols (Unicode block) without having installed anything special. Only the koron and sori at the end of the block don't show up; anyway, they're Unicode 14.0 and mostly found in Persian classical music. I can't see the symbols for the other notation traditions (e.g. ancient Greek musical notation), but as you say, if I felt the need to read articles about those, I'd install a font. Double sharp (talk) 22:35, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

I can't see the last dozen in that block (Kievan notation), but all the rest are covered without any special musical or symbol fonts. — kwami (talk) 23:39, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

 Done but you'll need an interface admin to do MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert-core.js — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:48, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@MSGJ: Thank you! Is there anyone I should ask re MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert-core.js? It's been a few days. Double sharp (talk) 12:06, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

It's in the queue, so hopefully will be dealt with shortly. If you can't wait, you can always post at the Interface administrators' noticeboard — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:04, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

 Done (for .js file). — xaosflux ^Talk 15:19, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: This is really really weird: somehow I can see 𝄫 and 𝄪 normally when I use them in text, but now what I'm seeing in the "Symbols" palette is � � ♭ ♮ ♯ � � with pairs of replacement characters. However, if I click the first replacement-character, then the second, I get a 𝄫 (but not with any other combinations) and can see it. And if I click the third, then the fourth, I get a 𝄪. I wonder if something is just going wrong because the problem is that these characters are outside the BMP: are these the surrogate pairs? Thanks a lot for your help, BTW. :D Double sharp (talk) 15:34, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Double sharp: see if this helped? Think these are just nasty unicode characters :D — xaosflux ^Talk 15:38, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: Unfortunately, it didn't. :( I can see the 𝄫 and 𝄪 in your edit, but somehow I can't see them in the symbols palette when I try to edit. I just get the replacement-character pairs that if clicked together in the right order give me the 𝄫 and 𝄪. That's why I suspected that the problem was that they were too high-numbered in Unicode, and that something in the code is interpreting it as pairs of lower-numbered characters, since 𝄫 for example has UTF-16 encoding 0xD834 0xDD2B. Supporting my hypothesis: if I click the 1st then the 4th, or the 3rd then the 2nd, I also get the right characters, because 𝄪 is 0xD834 0xDD2A.

Anyway, if this is unavoidable right now, it might be best to remove it for the moment. Maybe one of us should ask at WP:VPT what's going on? Sorry for putting you to this trouble. :( Double sharp (talk) 16:04, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

I've asked at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Unicode_characters_outside_the_BMP_in_MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert-core.js. Double sharp (talk) 16:11, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Double sharp: I've rolled back the edit, feel free to request again in the future. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:13, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: Thank you! Hopefully I can get to the bottom of this at VPT. :) Double sharp (talk) 16:13, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Revisit

@Xaosflux: Since the problem's been fixed per the section below, could we have the 𝄫 and 𝄪 back? Thanks in advance. :D Double sharp (talk) 10:17, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

@Double sharp: this is the current line:

'Symbols': '~ | ¡¿†‡↔↑↓•¶#∞ ‹+› «+» {\{angle.bracket|+}}  ¤₳฿₵¢₡₢$₫₯€₠₣ƒ₴₭₤ℳ₥₦№₧₰£៛₨₪৳₮₩¥  ♠♣♥♦  ♭♯♮  ©®™ ◌',

Exactly what do you want it replaced with? — xaosflux ^Talk 13:16, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

I'd like:

'Symbols': '~ | ¡¿†‡↔↑↓•¶#∞ ‹+› «+» {\{angle.bracket|+}}  ¤₳฿₵¢₡₢$₫₯€₠₣ƒ₴₭₤ℳ₥₦№₧₰£៛₨₪৳₮₩¥  ♠♣♥♦  𝄫♭♮♯𝄪  ©®™ ◌',

If you think the planetary symbols in the request above are also worth adding, then I think this would do:

'Symbols': '~ | ¡¿†‡↔↑↓•¶#∞ ‹+› «+» {\{angle.bracket|+}}  ¤₳฿₵¢₡₢$₫₯€₠₣ƒ₴₭₤ℳ₥₦№₧₰£៛₨₪৳₮₩¥  ♠♣♥♦  𝄫♭♮♯𝄪  ©®™ ◌ ☉☾☿♀🜨♂♃♄⛢♆',

Double sharp (talk) 15:40, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Fixed syntax error above. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:19, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

 Done — xaosflux ^Talk 16:20, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much! Double sharp (talk) 19:36, 27 January 2022 (UTC)