Talk:Vladimir Putin

Lede image

@Nick.mon -- thoughts on what the portrait of him should be? I feel the version you reverted to has slightly unnatural coloration. Cheers! JayCubby Talk 16:00, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

@JayCubby: Hi! IMHO the other version was not centered. In my view we could crop "your" version and use that, if it's true that it has a higher resolution. -- Nick.mon (talk) 16:39, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I'll upload a recropped version in a few. Cheers! JayCubby 16:45, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

"Dictator"

Not neutral, doesn't follow manual of style.

Also, associated account is likely a troll account, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GreatLeader1945/ 195.224.87.165 (talk) 15:06, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Taken care of. 331dot (talk) 15:18, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Is he a dictator or isn't he?

First line of Bashar Al Assad's article: "Bashar al-Assad (born 11 September 1965) is a Syrian politician and dictator who has been the 19th and current president of Syria since 2000."

First line of Putin's article: "Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin (born 7 October 1952) is a Russian politician and former intelligence officer who has served as President of Russia since 2012, having previously served from 2000 to 2008."

Later on: "Under Putin's rule, the Russian political system has been transformed into an authoritarian dictatorship with a personality cult."

How can one rule a dictatorship without being a dictator? And if he is one, then why is it acceptable to list that in Assad's article but not here, or vice versa? Which is correct? Adonnus (talk) 16:37, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

To name Putin as a dictator you would need to show that the preponderance of independent reliable sources refer to him as a dictator. I believe that is the case with Assad. 331dot (talk) 16:40, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure that most sources call him that, because.....reasons. Probably because Russia is a world power and Syria is not. Trump's opponents say he will be a dictator but we don't name him one because most sources don't. 331dot (talk) 16:42, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

How many exactly do we need for it to be considered a "preponderance"? Is there an exact number? How many reliable sources which do versus reliable sources that don't are required, or what is the ratio? Adonnus (talk) 12:04, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I can't give you a specific number. Obviously you can't survey every possible source on this planet, but you should at least be able to show that a wide variety of news outlets and perhaps scholarly sources like academic journals refer to Putin as a "dictator". I think most sources refer to him as "President" because he is "elected"(yes, in rigged elections with token and approved opposition). Most dictators, if they have elections at all, do it as a yes/no question with supervision of the voters(i.e. North Korea, Iraq under Saddam). 331dot (talk) 12:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@GreatLeader1945 you are advised not to add anything controversial in the article. You have been reverted more than once. Please discuss, cite reliable sources and gain consensus before adding anything. Thank you. ShaanSengupta^Talk 15:48, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Easily sourced......and is so on every related pages that have gone through many talks. If editors are not familiar with the topic they should at least do some minimal research before posting.

• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Should add to the body

Under the administrations of Vladimir Putin, Russia has experienced democratic backsliding, and has been described as an authoritarian dictatorship. Putin's policies are generally referred to as Putinism.

what is being talked about in this case - is has Russia, that has a "dictator" moved from authoritarianism to totalitarianism?

• Greene, Samuel A.; Robertson, Graeme B. (2019). Putin v. the People: The Perilous Politics of a Divided Russia. Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0-300-23839-6. JSTOR j.ctvfc5417.
• Krzywdzinski, Martin (2020). Consent and Control in the Authoritarian Workplace: Russia and China Compared. Oxford University Press. p. 252. ISBN 978-0-19-252902-2. officially a democratic state with the rule of law, in practice an authoritarian dictatorship
• Fischer, Sabine (2022). "Russia on the road to dictatorship". SWP Comment. Stiftung Wissenschaft und Politik (SWP), German Institute for International and Security Affairs. doi:10.18449/2022C30. Retrieved 24 July 2024.

References

Moxy🍁 16:36, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

• Putin is undeniably a dictator, though his regime masks its authoritarian nature through the guise of democratic elections. These "choiceless elections" create a facade of choice where none truly exist. They adopt a similar approach with control of the media, threatening journalists instead of telling them what to write; and social media, throttling YouTube and Facebook instead of blocking them. This approach is more subtle than Lenin and Stalin, and allows Putin to manipulate and control the population without the overt use of force common with the more blatant dictatorships. While historians will likely label him a dictator in retrospect, most current independent media still buy into this pretense and may still refer to him by his official title as president. But he is a dictator in every sense of the word and it belongs in the lead. IntrepidContributor (talk) 14:25, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

  As I said above, it needs to be shown that the preponderance of English language reliable sources use the term "dictator" to refer to Putin. You seem to be admitting this isn't the case. It may be a pretense, and in casual conversation I would agree with you, but here we need sources. 331dot (talk) 14:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

  I am admitting that the news media are too careful about it. But I don't think we need a preponderance of such sources to call a spade a spade. If there is a compromise that is needed here, I can agree to put it somewhere else in the lead paragraph, couching it in some language like 'his rule has been characterised as a dictatorship". IntrepidContributor (talk) 15:32, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

  Then offer sources that say that. Yes, we need sources, because that's what we do here- summarize sources. Based on your criteria, Donald Trump could be termed a "dictator" as many feel he was/will be. 331dot (talk) 15:36, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

  There are lots of sources [1][2], including many in Russian also [3]. As much as I don't like Trump, if you are going to call him or the US system as rigged as Putin's Russia, then I give up on any compromise with you. IntrepidContributor (talk) 16:02, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

  It's not a comment on the system, it's simply what some out there say about him. Time will tell. 331dot (talk) 16:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

  It is a fallacious argument and not appropriate for this talk page. IntrepidContributor (talk) 16:58, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

  You're not the arbiter of what is appropriate for this page. In any event, it's not just up to me or you. Good day. 331dot (talk) 17:21, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

  It is fallacious and inappropriate because literally no reliable sources call Trump a dictator. There may very well have been something fishy about the elections, and Musk's bank account, but a dictator he is not. The institutions of the US are too strong to be manipulated or coopted in the way Putin captured the state in Russia. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:41, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

  You said "I don't think we need a preponderance of such sources to call a spade a spade". My only point was that there are people who would want us to call Trump a dictator, so yes, we do need sources. I don't agree he is one, but Google "trump dictator" and see what comes up. There are plenty of people who think he is. I'm not comparing political systems. 331dot (talk) 17:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

  I hear you but I provided sources and I still think you was being a bit facetious in comparing Putin to Trump and pontificating about the latter's future. In my opinion, we should include dictator along with his "president" title, even if he is not referred to as that in the preponderance of everyday news sources. I'm not sure if you've been following events over the last few years, but he is literally on the level of Kim Jong Un, who we call a "dictator", even though most news sources call him "leader". IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

  I am afraid to add the "dictator" to the lede or infobox you would need to demonstrate that a vast majority of sources call him a dictator (rather than just a president). Tbh I do not think this is the case. Ymblanter (talk) 15:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Many living dictators, past and present, like Assad or Kim Jong Un, often referred to as "president" or "leader" in many news sources. I don't think we need vast majority of news sources explicitly calling Putin a "dictator" in their every day reporting. I think we only need only few reliable sources relevant to the topic. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:31, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Very concerned here that people are not doing basic research about the past decade or so. The fourth wave of democratization uses Russia as the main example. A parade of terminology to capture the spirit of “Putinism” has evolved in parallel with changes in the nature of Putin’s regime—from “managed democracy” early in his second presidential term (2004–2008), to “competitive authoritarianism” with a “kleptocratic” political economy, to “personalistic, autocratic, conservative, populism” or simply “dictatorship” after 2012 sourced to

  • Levitsky, S.; Way, L.A. (2010). Competitive Authoritarianism: Hybrid Regimes after the Cold War. Problems of International Politics. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-139-49148-8.
  • Fish, M. Steven (2018). "What Has Russia Become?". Comparative Politics. 50 (3). Comparative Politics, Ph.D. Programs in Political Science, City University of New York: 327–346. ISSN 0010-4159. JSTOR 26532689.
  • Greene, Samuel A.; Robertson, Graeme B. (2019). Putin v. the People: The Perilous Politics of a Divided Russia. Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0-300-23839-6. JSTOR j.ctvfc5417.
  • Zygar, M. (2016). All the Kremlin's Men: Inside the Court of Vladimir Putin. PublicAffairs. ISBN 978-1-61039-740-7.
  • "Validate User". Validate User.
  • Taylor, B.D. (2018). The Code of Putinism. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-086734-8.

  Moxy🍁 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  Some of us are doing basic research. Some of us can also read Russian and have access to a bigger pool of sources. I do not think anyone argues that Putin should not be called a dictator in the body of the article. We are now discussing the lede, where the definition of Putin as a dictator has again been added by an editor who does not participate at the talk page but has warnings about disruptive editing in contentious topics. Ymblanter (talk) 22:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Ymblanter I have reverted the addition of the term "dictator". Have served them with Contentious topic notice at their TP. They already had Balkans & Eastern Europe notice served once, so BLP this time. This isn't the first time this addition by the user has been reverted. They were even pinged here to come and discuss but they are just refusing to engage. WP:DISRUPTSIGNS & WP:IDHT. Shaan Sengupta^Talk 03:31, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Thanks. I would have just blocked them but I am obviously involved. Ymblanter (talk) 08:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Ohhhh I though you were arguing to remove the term from the lead. Was not aware it was a second addition of the term. Moxy🍁 14:50, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I am indeed arguing that whereas the presented argumentation is sufficient to keep the term in the article (and even to write a paragraph about it), it is possibly not sufficient to use it in the lede. Ymblanter (talk) 15:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Not sure what your saying - is your suggestion we remove the term entirely from the article? ....its been in the lead and article for many years. Do we have any sources that indicate there is any debate on its usage? Moxy🍁 15:13, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

No, I object to the definition of putin in the first paragraph of the article as a Russian politician (president) and dictator. This definition has not been there for years. It was repeatedly added by GreatLeader1945, who is a disruptive editor on their way to topic ban, and every time quickly reverted. Ymblanter (talk) 17:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

@Moxy noone is advocating to remove it from the body of the article. The purpose of this thread is about the repeated addition of the word "dictator" by an editor, who even after so many reverts and warning continues to add it. And it is not related to any other part of the article but only from the lede (i.e. the very first line, the introductory line of the article). Shaan Sengupta^Talk 03:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

That makes much more sense. Moxy🍁 03:59, 6 January 2025 (UTC)