Talk:Ahhiyawa

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Mythology

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Where should the redirect point?

I wanted to start a discussion on where this redirect should point. I think it is preferable for it to point to Mycenaean Greece rather than Achaeans (Homer). One reason is that the term isn't specifically Homeric. Another is that I think it is generally less informative to link to an article about a term as opposed to one about the thing itself. But I'm happy to discuss. Botterweg14 (talk) 19:16, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey @Alexikoua:, I don't understand your edit summary. Care to explain futher? I can see why a redirect to "Achaeans" might have made sense back in 2004, when readers might have benefited from a summary of the then-ongoing debate about its equation with Mycenaean Greece. But as you mentioned on the other talk page, that debate is largely settled so what's your issue with simply cutting out the middleman, so to speak? Botterweg14 (talk) 20:37, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The redirection leads to the precise section of what this name deals: The Hittite exonym of the Achaeans: Achaeans_(Homer)#Hittite_documents. The issue is largely settled but Ahhijawa is still an exonym with its own history in the Hittite archives. Why should we change that to the more generic Mycenaean Greece?Alexikoua (talk) 21:22, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For the same reason that Hellenes redirects to Greeks rather than to Names of the Greeks. Botterweg14 (talk) 22:11, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I also believe that there was nothing wrong with the original redirect. The term Ahhiyawa is a Hittite rendition of the people known in Greek as Akhaioi (and as Acheans in English). The "Hittite documents" section of the Achaeans article appears to discuss the subject in more detail in comparison to the Mycenean Greece article, which only discusses this link at the end of the "Identity" section but in less detail. The "H.D." section seems to discuss the history of this link in modern bibliography, like how and why the Hittite term "Ahhiyawa" came to be identified with the Homeric term "Achaeans" and with Mycenean Greece in general. I want to clarify that the redirect isn't necessarily wrong; it is what we call in wikipedia "not an improvement". The term Ahhiyawa is, in fact, identified with Mycenean Greece, however it is only used in bibliography within the context of Hittite foreign relations, Hittite documents etc. and never as a replacement of the term "Mycenean" in general, which is the standard term in bibliography for the Late Bronge Age civilization. As such, the term Ahhiyawa, being merely the Hittite exonym of the Myceneans, remains an obscure term and the average reader would still benefit from reading the "Hittite documents" section, which allows them to understand the history of the terminology (as I explained above) Piccco (talk) 22:09, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~For the same reason that Hellenes redirects to Greeks rather than to Names of the Greeks. Botterweg14 (talk) 22:11, 30 April 2024 (UTC)~~[reply]

That is, I guess, because the term Hellenes is still in use by the Greeks to this day, being their endonym. Piccco (talk) 22:32, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, sorry for my curt reply. It was actually meant as a response to the other user, but I seem to have put it in the wrong place. I agree with you that there's nothing intrinsically wrong with either destination for the link. But when someone is clicking a link that says "Ahhiyawa" it's likely they are interested in Bronze Age Greek history, not onomastics or modern day historiography. This isn't the biggest issue we face on the encyclopedia, but I've found that in editing LBA-related articles it would often be convenient to be able to point the reader in that manner.

Though to be honest, I think the ideal solution would be to nix the Achaeans (Homer) article entirely, and split its content between Mycenaean_Greece#Identity and Names of the Greeks. Then this page could redirect to the Ahhiyawa subsection of the Mycenaean Greece article. But that's more work than I want to take on at the moment. Botterweg14 (talk) 23:00, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, I doubt that the average reader knows what the term Ahhiyawa means. As I mentioned, it remains a very obscure term, only used within the context of Hittite documents etc. This redirect is clearly helpful. As far as the "Achaeans (Homer)" artice is concerned, I disagree with any major changes, like the one mentioned. Though, Ahhiyawa can be understood as referring to Mycenean Greece or a part of it (as a land), the term, like the Acheans, also signifies a people (as in an ethnic group or a nation) and they are mentioned as such in the H.D. section. Overall, I believe that the current version of these articles is okay. Piccco (talk) 23:39, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]