Talk:Antonio Salieri/Archive 1

Archive 1

Mozart the Plagiarist Claim

This sentence was recently added to the last paragraph:

Some are even daring to suggest Mozart was the plagiarist.[1]

This is a tantalizing claim. However, the external reference given, a very long webpage, has only one paragraph mentioning Salieri, but nothing about Mozart plagiarizing Salieri. Perhaps the sentence above needs to clarify from whom Mozart is accused of plagiarizing: "Michael Haydn (younger brother of Franz Josef Haydn), K.F. Abel, Johann Neubauer, Joseph Myslivecek, Joseph Schuster, François Devienne, Henri Casadesus, Ernst Eberlin, Franz Novotny, F.X. Süssmayr (his pupil), and, most significantly, his father, Leopold Mozart." Dmetric 18:54, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Huge list of works.

Is there any chance to relocate the huge list of Salieris work? Or maybe cut down on the number of works and incooperate the "major" pieces instead. This current list takes up like 75% of the total space of this article. Not even Beethovens article has such a long list.

Fred26 18:06, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Since there´s no complete list of Salieri´s works available at present (the biographies of Angermueller and Braunbehrens miss lots of works in their listings and the thematic identifier by Elena Biggi-Parodi isn´t published yet), I think it´s quite important to show this list of works at wikipedia so that it is available for everyone.

I don't necessarily agree that artists must have a 100% complete list of their works in the main article, but as it is I suppose the list wont detract from the contents as to warrant a removal.

Fred26 09:21, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

If Salieri's music was better known, it would be easy to boil the list down to his "greatest hits." But since that's not the case, then perhaps we should focus instead on a representative cross-section of his work. Dmetric 21:14, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

The paragraph, "During his time in Vienna..." seems to do an OK job of summarizing his works. Let's make that paragraph head up a section, ==Works==, and link there to List of compositions by Antonio Salieri. I think the giant list has to go... somewhere... -- Rmrfstar 12:37, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Amadeus the Movie

An anonymous editor (User:68.233.231.138) is being quite persistent in inserting his/her personal analysis of the movie Amadeus, particularly the characterizations of Mozart and Salieri, in the articles on those composers. That movie is a fictionalized account of the lives of those two composers, and information about the movie does not belong in the articles on the composers. If made suitably NPOV and given proper references, that information can be placed in the article on the movie, and should go nowhere else. Antandrus (talk) 19:24, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

This page needs serious fixing

I think there is much in this article that is misleading and perhaps outright wrong, in particular the section on "Allegations by Mozart". For example, I've yet to find any evidence that Mozart accused Salieri of poisoning him. In fact, a Google search turned up articles [2] that suggest the rumors of Salieri poisoning Mozart only happened after Mozart's death. Not to mention that it is also indicated that the rumors and maligning of Salieri began very soon after Mozart died, not in the "following decades" like the current section reads.

A BBC article [3] credits Callisto Bassi with originating the rumor that Salieri killed Mozart.

As to whether this is true (and whether Salieri confessed, and if so, if it was valid), it seems to be still quite a controversy, so to pick one side, as this Wikipedia article does, is quite POV.

- In serious musicology there is no doubt that the poisoning of Mozart is a myth. First, the wikipedia article on Salieri should inform readers about the person and his importance in musical history. The chapter "Salieri and Mozart" sticks to the facts we have from independent 18th century sources and not to allegations made long after Mozart´s death by romantic souls. If Salieri would have killed Mozart, Constanze surely wouldn´t have sent her son Franz Xaver to Salieri´s composition lessons. If there had been any proof during Salieri´s lifetime, his social life would have ended. The court couldn´t give his highest musical post to an alleged murderer.

There is also another POV issue, since there seems to be quite a bit evidence that Salieri worked actively as Mozart's rival, using his influence in court.

- The accusation derives from Leopold for whom all other musicians in Vienna were enimies of his son. As we know from several letters, Mozart himself was quite active in creating cabals and judging unfairly about other very accomplished composers.

For these reasons, I'm going to put up an disputed tag and list it as needing attention.

For those interested in this, some modifications to Mozart would seem necessary. --C S 02:17, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

There is a Beethoven conversation book that seems to indicate that Beethoven heard the rumor, knew it to be false, but was saddened by it nonetheless. This is in the Thayer biography of Salieri, if I remember correctly. Dmetric 20:27, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I admit I've done little research on this, but I don't think the conversation book (or anything else) gives an explicit piece of evidence that says Beethoven didn't believe Salieri poisoned Mozart. Rather, based on facts like Beethoven and Salieri remaining friends, many historians have concluded that Beethoven must not have believed the rumors.

As for that Thayer book, I grow more concerned about it. First, the book was written in the 19th century. Not to say old books are generally unreliable, but I believe that with Mozart and Salieri in particular, there's been much more research done since then.

Either the book is inaccurate in some spots or your recollection of it is incorrect. For example, you state that the opera in 1898 "started a tradition of dramatic license crossing into slander" but Pushkin wrote about this in Mozart and Salieri in 1830. In fact, I believe the opera was based on Pushkin's work.

If you still have the book, I ask that you take a closer look at it and determine if your recollections are correct. We may also need to check if Thayer's book is regarded highly by modern scholars. The key thing I am interested in is whether Mozart accused Salieri of trying to murder him. What evidence does Thayer give for this? I just found this paper [4] which says they were normal rivals but the rivalry was not anymore serious than usual. It cites Thayer as a source. Presumably with alleged accusations of murder, this would be an inconsistent statement.

--C S 22:47, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

I edited this article last year after I returned the Thayer book to the library. It's my impression (a POV, if you will) that Thayer is a respected biographer of Beethoven. The New Grove quotes Henry Krehbiel calling Thayer's Beethoven book "the greatest and its history the most extraordinary." Thayer also contributed significantly to articles on Beethoven and Salieri in an older Grove. Dmetric 19:43, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I realize Thayer was a respectable historian, but whether his particular work under discussion is still considered good is another matter. Also, I must keep on this one point of whether Mozart accused Salieri because I haven't found any evidence of any kind that this is so. So if Thayer is the only one that says this, this is highly suspect. I'd also like to know whether he explictly says there's a hearsay account of this or whether it's in a historical document.

I'm kind of surprised that you don't remember what reason he gives for his belief that Mozart accused Salieri. That's a key point. I'd like to hear if perhaps you confused the accusations after Mozart's death with stuff Mozart said. There seems to be miscommunication here; you've not yet mentioned or answered my queries regarding your reasons for the "Mozart accusing Salieri" belief of yours. Did Thayer explictly say this (alleged) fact in his book? --C S 20:48, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)

I recently had occassion to listen to Salieri's Piano Concerto in C Major, which I believe was written in 1773. It was startling to hear how similar it was to Beethoven's music, far more so than anything by Haydn. And one passage also reminded me of Liszt as well. That is quite remarkable given that Beethoven was 3 years old when the piece was composed (and Liszt would not be born for another 28 years). I am not a musicologist but I wonder if anyone has ever considered that Beethoven's music could be considered as a student's expansion and further development of his teacher Salieri's ideas? Certainly Salieri was a far greater influence on the development of classical music than Mozart.

I too have noticed a similarity in Salieri's music to that of Beethoven, with the overture to Cesare in Farmacusa being perhaps the best example. Dmetric 19:43, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Concurrence here. I have never heard of any composer upon whom Mozart was the primary influence, but Beethoven seems to have learned something from Salieri. Beethoven's a better composer than Antonio Salieri, but he could not have been Beethoven without his influence. Mozart used his skill to disguise whatever influences he was learning from - they rarely leaked through. 68.104.201.53 06:10, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Wow, this page has much improved since the last time (more than a year ago) I looked at it! Anyway, it seems my concerns have been more than adequately addressed. Kudos to everyone who has worked on this page. --C S (Talk) 13:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Removed "Humorous" reference

Someone's vandalised the page - "where he studied breasts with Giovanni Battista Pescetti" I've taken out the breasts bit.NBeddoe 13:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Salieri and Liszt

When Salieri attempted suicide (as shown so dramatically in Amadeus), Mozart had been gone from the world a third of a century already, but Franz Liszt had just very recently departed on his European musical tour. So which of the two is the more likely to have pushed poor old Antonio over the edge? He was very fond of Franz, who was 12 at the time, and Salieri's favorite pupil. Das Baz 17:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Salieri's suicide attempt is 100% fiction. It never happened and is only part of the movie "Amadeus".--131.130.135.193 17:26, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I read once that he did attempt suicide, though certainly not as dramatically as in the movie. Of course, that may be an error or misunderstanding. However, it is clear that he was hospitalized in a mental asylum after Liszt's departure. Das Baz 15:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

In the movie, Salieri cuts his own throat spectacularly. In historical reality, he held a knife too close to his throat and the orderlies removed it before he could do himself any harm. Das Baz 17:59, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

It is also possible, on further reflection, that Salieri had no intention to harm himself and the orderlies were over-reacting. Das Baz 15:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

It was actually Franz Schubert that was Salieri's favorite pupil. --72.39.204.249 22:08, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Epitaph

The translation of the German epitaph was bad. It said "he [Salieri] expressed...now he..." and should have said 'it' [your spirit]. The masculine pronoun in the German most certainly refers to 'der Geist' 'spirit' and not 'he' as in Salieri; because it makes more sense, and also because it is addressed *to* the composer, not the reader. I changed the occurrences to 'it, itself, it'. David80 (talk) 23:57, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is Start-class. The biography is sketchy, and overly short in relation to the vast quantities of space devoted to the Mozart business, especially considering book-length biographies are available as sources. My full review is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 13:43, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Antonio Salieri/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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;Composers Project Assessment of Antonio Salieri: 2024-12-16 This is an assessment of article Antonio Salieri by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. Origins/family background/studies Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? Insufficient weight. Early career Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? Insufficient weight. Mature career Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? Insufficient weight. List(s) of works Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. ok Critical appreciation Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? Sketchy. Illustrations and sound clips Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) One image (not really enough); no sound. References, sources and bibliography Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article has references; few inline citations. Structure and compliance with WP:MOS Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) Lead is short; either bio unduly short, or other sections unduly long. Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) Article needs (more) images and/or other media (MOS:IMAGE) Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD) Article prose needs work (WP:MOS) Summary This article barely qualifies as a biography. When it allocates more space to debunking the whole Salieri-Mozart brouhaha than it does to Salieri's life, something is wrong. There are apparently full biographies of Salieri -- please write me a more complete bio before splitting hairs on the contretemps with Mozart. (There is also precious little musicology or critical/popular/historic appreciation here.) Article is Start-class; bio is woefully incomplete. Magic♪piano 13:40, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 13:40, 18 March 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 08:02, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Redirect

Hi, I created a redirect from the disambiguation page "Salieri" to this article, with the tag at the top for those who do like Mario's porn. Any objections, just reverse it. Thanks. 79.71.67.202 (talk) 16:12, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Discrepency

Discrepency: in the first paragraph someone wrote "There is a lot of evidence of Salieri's having engaged in such conspiratorial acts.". A paragraph later, claims "There is very little evidence of a contentious relationship between the two composers." Shuey123 (talk) 17:05, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Structure of page

This page appears to need a great deal of work in regard to Salieri's actual life. What was his own training? During what years was he in what court? Was he married? To whom? When? Can anybody get a cursory life history section going that we may then build on? --Vaudedoc (talk) 16:34, 13 January 2010 (UTC) I'm currently working to update the Salieri biography and make it as scholarily and accuarte as possible - please check it out and let me know what I can do to improve it. I'm only up to 1766 so far, although I've sketched in the rest of the info. from memory until I have time to go back and ensure it's accuracy and link it to the appropriate reference works - at least this way general readers will have something more to go with.--Eric W. Cook 15:10, 11 February 2010 (UTC)Eric W. Cook —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eric W. Cook (talk • contribs)

Salieri's father

Is there any proof that Antonio Salieri's father died from a fish bone in his throat, so that Antonio himself could get musical education? This is what happens in the 1984 movie. Solejheyen (talk) 17:14, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
There is no evidence for the death of Antonio Salieri's father's death - his father also named Antonio died between 1763 and 1764/5, according to Swenson there is no record of his Father's death in the Parish register, he may have been away from home when he died or the Parish record might be poorly kept, who knows. Therefore we have no idea when and where, let alone of what, his father died. Plus in the movie I think the wife and/or daughters call our Guiseppe while the father is dying - further proof, if any there was any needed that while the film Amadeus is a great work of imaginative art it is very poor history, although I think it gets the flavor of the time and place right. Antonio's mother had died in 1763 leaving him an orphan.--Eric W. Cook 15:32, 11 February 2010 (UTC)Eric W. Cook

• Antonio Salieri began studying music while his father was alive. The movie is totally wrong on this point. Das Baz, aka Erudil 17:26, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Salieri's Vestale

In the second paragraph of the "Biography" section, the ending sentence reads:

"A complete opera composed in 1769

(presumably as a culminating study) La Vestale

("The Vestal Virgin") has also been lost."

In that sentence the opera's title "La Vestale" is incorrectly linked to an article about a "La Vestale" opera composed in 1807 by Gaspare Spontini. Spontini's opera is in no way related to Salieri's opera of 1769, other than the choice of title.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Vestale

That link in the Salieri article statement about "La Vestale" should be removed.

208.111.237.182 (talk) 04:44, 26 March 2011 (UTC) Sarah of The Mountain

Added Modern References

I added a modern references section. While many of them refer to the image of Salieri portrayed in the film Amadeus, I still believe it is worthwhile to have a section noting them.

What about the Family Guy episode in which Salieri and Mozart are represented (via a reference to the film Amadeus)by Peter and Stewie Griffin respectively? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.19.99.175 (talk) 22:42, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Other sources

An IP added some articles by one author (Parodi) which are in Italian (one in German), which appear to be potentially valuable. I moved some of them to a new section in this article called "Other sources", one to Les Danaïdes, and two to Europa riconosciuta. Perhaps other editors who can read Italian (or German) and write well in English will find the time to investigate them and add info based on them to these articles, so they will become "Cited sources". --Robert.Allen (talk) 16:56, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Now that I look at the name again, perhaps this is a biggi jokey! I probably wasted my time! I'll try to check it out later. (I always seem to fall for things like this!) --Robert.Allen (talk) 22:25, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Apologies. My first impression was the right one. --Robert.Allen (talk) 01:57, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Mozart and Salieri

This section states in the that Mozart "appointed" Salieri to be his son Franz Xavier's music teacher. Is this so? Franz Xavier was 5 months old when Mozart died.

It was Wolfgang's widow, Constanza W. Mozart, who asked Salieri to teach her son. The relationship between Frau Mozart and Signore Salieri in Amadeus is totally fictitious and baseless. Das Baz 15:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

---

Given the serious presentation of the movie Amadeus and that many people think that it's such a great movie and accept its portrayals of Salieri, I think that it's important to sort out the truth from the slanderous dramatic license in the public perception of Salieri. Hopefully I have helped in this regard while maintaining the article NPOV. The Movie Amadeus is worng. Salieri didn't kill Mozart.

Nevertheless, I am compelled in this effort by a POV: I enjoy Salieri's music more than Mozart's. Salieri's music has none of the saccharine sweetness of Mozart, instead it has a strength and forthrightfulness that points forward to Beethoven. I hope that Salieri becomes fully exonerated in public perceptionss so that the public may come to enjoy his music. - Dmetric

I have nothing against Naxos or Salieri (just in case :). I think an enclyclopedia does not need to quote a label. (User:Pfortuny???)

Thanks for clarifying the paragraph. However, I do think it's important to show that Salieri's music is worth recording and that it has been recorded. To that end, I plan to make a Salieri discography page and put it on a Geocities website, then link to it from here in an External Links section.

You might as well include a "Links!" section at the bottom like

Salieri's discography at Naxos (and the corresponding link), Deutsche Gramophonn, etc...

Or similar. (Just an idea). Pfortuny 17:13, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Saccharine sweetness?! Remember -- to paraphrase what is said about Shakespeare -- that it's not you that judge Mozart, but Mozart that judges you!

The Mozart/Salieri rivarly/fiction should definately not be what defines Salieri. Precious little is said about him that isn't referring indirectly to Mozart.

I agree. Unfortunately, Salieri's reputation is bad in pop culture (e.g., the episode of Family Guy when Stewie is teething, he exclaims to an incompetent piano student, "E-flat, Salieri!"). Not much you can do to change pop culture, but there's a lot you can do to improve this article. Dmetric 19:46, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What can one say but, "Salieri"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.57.126.163 (talk) 04:41, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

A terrific article from an obviously sympathetic writer. But a question remains that needs to be addressed. It has long been my understanding that, as Salieri aged and his music declined in popularity, he claimed to have poisoned Mozart (presumably to keep his name before the public). (I don't remember the source. This article repeats and rejects the story. http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4213) WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 16:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)