Talk:Art Modell

The Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame...

From my comment on that article's talk page:

An article on the TV show itself may be NPOV. However, after re-writing the article on Art Modell, I should note here that articles based on the show may be POV. The show is on the same order as newspaper editorial, and reflects the opinions of the show's producers.

Someone keeps including the opinions offered in this program as article fact. This is not NPOV. Some of the conclusions the program reaches-- for example, the argument that the city of Cleveland owed Modell a stadium "has merit"-- are blatantly POV (and, to this Clevelander's POV, flat out wrong... but never mind that). As the same words seem to get included each time these "facts" are presented, I also have to wonder if this is a copyright violation, as though the summary appeared verbatim either on the program or in some publication's summary of the program. -- SwissCelt 14:35, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Cleveland Cavaliers and Art Modell

I'm reprinting this here from my talk page. -- SwissCelt 17:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Edited to add updated discussion from my talk page. -- SwissCelt 16:24, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I feel that the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is still relevant to the Art Modell page because it was one of the reasons that Cleveland did not have the funds to pay for a football stadium. If you'd like, I can reword it. The Cavs are definitely worth mentioning, as they are a sports team. Check out the Ravens AOL board. The debate is certainly still going on. 144.126.161.43 17:11, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Should the New York Giants be outraged every time a new theater opens on Broadway? Come on, let's get real here. The city of Cleveland did not build the Rock Hall. It's a non-profit institution; which makes it all the more outrageous to think that Cleveland had to build a stadium for Modell's for profit business separate from the Gateway Sports and Entertainment Complex which was already offered to him at the same time it was offered to the Indians and Cavs. (More on that in a moment.) Cleveland did spend money on infrastructure for the Rock Hall, and it's the same infrastructure (e.g. the RTA Waterfront line) which is now benefitting the Browns in their current stadium. Moreover, the experience of the nearby Columbus Blue Jackets makes the whole argument out to be the sham it is: Sports teams can indeed survive, and even thrive, without raiding the public coffers.

But like it or not those are reasons that Modell and his supporters cite for him leaving. Now you can mention that was incorrect, but there in Maryland most people view it that way.144.126.161.43 18:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

As for the Cavs, as I mentioned, they were part of the Gateway project; mentioning them separately in the article is redundant, and suggests more credence to Modell's posturing than actually exists in fact. (To wit, even if you buy the argument that Cleveland snubbed Modell, it did so with only one project, not two or three.) What really happened is this: Modell gambled that the citizens of Cleveland would reject a public project to build new sports venues in Cleveland. This gamble made good business sense for Modell, as he already controlled leases on the existing Cleveland Municipal Stadium. The leases were more valuable even with the lackluster Indians as a tenant than they would have been in a new Browns-only stadium. To hedge his bet, Modell made clear he would not be a part of Gateway, as without the Browns it seemed a sure thing the citizens of Cleveland would reject the project.

The Gateway offer to Modell was for him to play in Jacobs Field and they would add 20,000 seats to that stadium. He didn't want a dual purpose stadium because it was not designed for football. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GregLuke (talk • contribs) 03:29, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The Cavs were a big deal as well. I'm not denying that Big Art is in the wrong. As a Ravens fan I'm glad he's out of there, and looking at the state the team is in now the new owner inherited a mess, and he certainly mismanaged his money, and he has nobody to blame for that but himself. Getting back to the Cavs, most cite that as a reason they left, and quite frankly I'm surprised that more people do not mention that.144.126.161.43 18:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Of course, Cleveland passed the project, via a "sin tax" in Cuyahoga County. The Indians would be moving to a new stadium, the Cavs would be moving into Cleveland from neighbouring Summit County, and Modell was left holding the bag. He pressured Cleveland to build him a new stadium as well. But what people don't realize is that not only did Cleveland not have the money for a new Browns stadium, they never did have the money: That money was earmarked through the Gateway project (and passed through a distinct levy by the voters of Cuyahoga County), which Modell had already rejected. And that, my friend, is why you can't blame the city of Cleveland for the Browns' move. If the folks at ESPN would get their heads out of... well, let's just say start thinking clearly, this story could be told instead of the Disney fantasy that is proffered in The Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame... -- SwissCelt 17:56, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

And I don't blame the city of Cleveland for Modell moving the team.

The reality of the situation is that Wikipedia articles should try to prevent all prevailing views and shoot them down. People have blamed the creation of all the stadiums and the R&R Hall of Fame for the moves. I have a book that cites it (not on me right now, but I can get ahold of it and cite it). Instead of deleting information that you feel helps Modell's cause you should allow for it to remain. Reading MOdell's info one sees how he truly is anyway. 144.126.161.43 18:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Then please do cite it. And to be brutally honest, the paragraph could stand some cleanup as well. I'm not trying to be mean, but what you added was problematic just on grammatical grounds. -- SwissCelt 06:05, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

And guys like you can edit it and have it meet all the standards you want it to. Personally I'm more concerned with getting information down, and people can edit it, making it more grammatically correct.

Funny

Funny that you censored the content of our discussion. By the way, I will have that source by this Sunday.144.126.161.43 15:27, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

What did I censor? What was printed here was what was on my talk page, and I subtracted nothing from that. Ah... okay, I see it now. You'd added some things to my talk page after I reprinted the beginning of our conversation here. No problem, I'll just copy the rest of our discussion here. Sorry for the oversight; but please, assume good faith in the future. -- SwissCelt 16:22, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I learned a long time ago that when you assume you make an ass out of you and me.

Very well, then. Take care. -- SwissCelt 22:32, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Browns move

A key piece of information is missing in regards to the Browns move to Baltimore. Model wanted Cleveland Municipal Stadium renovated, and he came up with his own plan. Cuyahoga County then put the proposal on the November, 1995 ballot. Just a few days before the vote, Modell announced he was moving the team to Baltimore. If he had waited for the vote, and the measure had passed, he would have had nearly $200 million in improvements to the stadium -- which was what he stated he wanted all along. But instead, he signed the deal with Baltimore without giving his community a chance to fund his project.

Omitting this important piece of information leads the reader to believe that Modell's hand was forced and he had no choice but to move the team to Baltimore. Furthermore, the County had put the issue on the ballot in 1995, when the Indians had just started playing at Jacobs Field in 1994. So it's not as though Modell had been ignored for an inordinate period of time.

Another piece of information that is not included as that Modell publically rejected being involved in the Gateway project, saying that he preferred to stay at Cleveland Municipal Stadium.

Not including these facts does not put the Browns' move in the proper historical context. If the reader did not have prior knowledge, he or she would be led to believe that Art Model's hand was forced to make the move. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.23.119.218 (talk) 03:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Helped?

The article states that "He was assisted in the move by Alfred Lerner...". I feel that needs to be expanded upon. Maybe it needs to go into Lerner page. I don't know. But, how exactly did Lerner assist the move? The statement seems way too vague. --MallaLubba (talk) 13:52, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Steelers threated to move?

I would like to see the author cite a reference for this statement:

The move fueled a proliferation of twelve new stadiums throughout the NFL. Using the NFL-City of Cleveland agreement's promise to supply a team to Cleveland by 1999, several NFL franchises used the threat of relocation to coerce their respective cities to build new stadiums with public funds. Such franchises include the Broncos, Patriots, Eagles, Seahawks, Buccaneers, Bengals, Steelers, Lions, Cardinals, and Colts.

I don't know a lot about some of those teams, but I'm almost positive the Steelers never threatened to leave Pittsburgh for any reason, much less over a stadium issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.26.157.11 (talk) 22:38, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

No, it was the Pirates that talked about moving. I think that everyone had come to agree that Three Rivers was inadequate, like the other 1960s and 1970s multipurpose stadiums, since it was designed for both football and baseball it was truly suited to neither rather than to both. 75.246.78.147 (talk) 03:09, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

"Impact of move"

In NO WAY does the word "incidentally" ever belong in an encyclopedia article. 75.246.78.147 (talk) 03:12, 19 September 2012 (UTC)