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Major changes

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this page has undergone major revisions since it's introduction. this entry merely serves to indicate this fact and to provide a clear separator for discussions that may occur subsequent to these changes. Mjharrison (talk) 23:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article bears so little resemblance to the original that existed before me that i have now brutally removed the 3 talk sections that preceded the overhaul, since they had no relevance whatsoever to the article as it now exists. Mjharrison (talk) 09:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Idea

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What about the cost of the game and how to buy it? That information should be put in the article. It is actually quite hard to find, and I am having trouble doing so. Any help would be much appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stonekar (talk • contribs) 21:54, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It costs "more than 40 euro": http://www.snsguildforum.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3808.0 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.167.165.53 (talk) 08:45, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Since the article is semi-protected, Noraya requested that http://darkfall.bewahrer-der-welten.de/ be added to external links with the description "Official german Darkfall-Infosite" He also indicates that site has become an affiliate according to the official website [1]. I leave this issue to regular editors of the article to decide.--chaser - t 15:35, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it should be added. Affiliates, or not, we can't add all community sites. Besides, it's in German. Actually, looking at the current external links list, I see some sites that does not belong there too. Erzsébet Báthory(talk|contr.) 15:55, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would really appreciate it and since there is no german-languaged page about darkfall on wikipedia yet i think it would be a good source of information for german speaking users, thanks in advance Noraya (talk) 18:57, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You could create the article on the German Wikipedia [2]. There was a discussion about it here, but it's two years old and the game is supposed to be released this year. Still, the safe option would be to check first.--chaser - t 19:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it should not be added. I originally had a big long list of various Darkfall fan sites and these were removed by senior WP editors due to WP:ELNO. If the fansite is linked from the official Darkfall site then probably even more reason not to add it here. Mjharrison (talk) 21:20, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

prestige classes -- please don't add them

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While the official website talks about prestige classes, a recent developer journal has made it clear that prestige classes will not be in the game at release, though it is will possible that they will be introduced at a later time. accordingly, i don't think we should have them listed in the 'expected features' section. Mjharrison (talk) 21:11, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Seconded Fenrisulfr talk 09:44, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Edits for readability and according to video games project

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G'day,

I've spent some time with the Darkfall article today. Please see particularly the lead section which I've taken 'bold liberties' with! I hope that it now resembles a good lead in the sense described in Wikipedia:LEAD. I feel that I haven't quite nailed it, and welcome your comments.

I'm also making minor edits such as italicising the game name in accordance with Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games/Article_guidelines#Style. Changed all instances of MMOG to MMORPG, and other minor fixes.

I expect to be playing Darkfall for a long time unless they manage to screw it up, and likewise hope to be contributing to the effort here. I would love to get to the point where we can get an 'A' review for the article.

Release day coming up soon! Cheers, Basie (talk) 02:57, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Basie, welcome to Darkfall, and thanks for your edits, however, at least to my eyes, i feel the previous lead section was better stylistically, and has changed very little in the past 12 months. Accordingly, i've reverted back to the previous version, with the idea that a better version could be developed here, if you are so motivated. Once again, thanks for your contributions. Mjharrison (talk) 20:38, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ugh, i just realised i restored the wrong version, without your italic edits. damn. Mjharrison (talk) 20:44, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Heh, looks like you got the right one in the end. Starting new section to talk about the article lead. Basie (talk) 23:03, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What changes are needed to take Darkfall to WP:GA status?

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  1. content: there are a few minor things that have come out recently that could be added/updated here and there, but not a lot. we are already close to covering the sum total of information known about about the game pre-release, not to mention the current article weighs in at an already fairly hefty 35KB. is there any new content/information we should be covering, but aren't? should be reorganise the existing content in a more logical or effective way?
  2. style: i am fairly happy with the prose, but then, i wrote most of it, so i am somewhat biased ;-) what are other people's thoughts here? what else can/should we do to achieve GA status?
  3. anything else? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjharrison (talk • contribs) 10:07, 8 January 2009
It's interesting to me that there are no feature standard MMO articles on WP, at least none that I can find. I can't even see one with GA status according to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games/Good_articles. Perhaps we can be one of the first! One of the best non-MMO articles is Half-life 2, which we could use as something of a standard for comparison. User:Tony1/How_to_satisfy_Criterion_1a is also a really good reference on how to improve an article.
I think there are several points to consider here. First is structure: this article could use some work in that direction, I believe. Currently we have:
  • Known features
  • Development history
  • Gameplay
  • The Darkfall world
  • Cities, city building and clan warfare
I would be interested in seeing something like:
  • Gameplay (which could include much of the "known features" content)
  • World (which could include cities etc.)
  • Development (or consider a 'Production' section like Halflife 2#Production)
  • Release (details we have so far on pre-release, description of the vapourware claims, and provides scope for expansion later this month!)
  • Reception (to be added later, obviously)
Secondly, I believe the article needs a copy edit. This is by no means intended to offend. Every writer could stand to work with a good editor, and I am certainly no exception to the rule! Whenever I've been working on a document for awhile, it always helps to have fresh eyes scan it.
Thirdly, I think we may be bordering on too much fictional information as described in point 5 here: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games/Article_guidelines#Inappropriate_content. I think this is common to many MMO articles. The race descriptions for example: interesting to you and me, but perhaps too much detail for the 'layperson'?
Finally, please be assured that I respect the work already done on this article. The references alone set it aside from the majority of MMO writing! It is detailed and accurate, and I only wish to cooperate with you in building on this. Cheers, Basie (talk) 21:31, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lead section revision

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Now, it was a bit presumptuous for me to jump in and savage the existing article lead like that, so I thought I'd break down the reasons for my changes and see if we can get some consensus here. I'm not particularly attached to any individual changes here, nor do I think my revision was in any way perfect! However, I do think the lead needs some work.

Particularly, I feel that the section tries to express too much in too small a space. I also think the sentences used tend to be lengthy and complex, which might be a style better used in the body of the article (if at all).

Links for reference: Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games/Article_guidelines#Style and WP:LEAD. And here's the original edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Darkfall&diff=prev&oldid=262444305.

Darkfall is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) in development by Aventurine SA that combines real-time action and strategy in a fantasy setting.

Most MMO's combine real-time action and strategy. I'm not sure that including this in the first sentence is useful. How about this for a first sentence?

Darkfall (also known as Darkfall Online) is a fantasy-themed massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) developed by Aventurine SA.

I used "fantasy-themed" for consistency with several other similar articles, notably Everquest and Vanguard:_Saga_of_Heroes. Not that we necessarily have to be the same as everyone else! Just a nice compact way of expressing the concept. Cheers, Basie (talk) 23:32, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

thanks for coming back with this. "fantasy-themed mmorpg" is certainly better. i would contend that Darkfall does have an element of real-time action that differentiates it from its contemporaries. there are only a few mmorpgs i know that incorporate what i would have called "real-time" action, eg: Age of Conan, Neocron, and WWII online. i agree the phrase "real-time action and strategy" is somewhat vague. also, strictly speaking, DF is still in development, not developed per se.
i have to admit i do favour an "information-dense" writing style, especially for the intro. give me a day or 2 to digest your intro, i'm sure we can come up with something we both like. cheers <3 Mjharrison (talk) 00:30, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No worries mate. I think your definition of "real-time" and mine are probably different, hence the confusion! Cheers, Basie (talk) 03:38, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Copy-edit: known features

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I've made a first pass at known features. Comments welcomed. Cheers, Basie (talk) 05:14, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

and SO on... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.112.49.208 (talk) 23:34, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what that means :) Cheers, Basie (talk) 17:21, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment

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At this moment, there is no rush to push this article to B-class. There is more than enough time to achieve that - and anyway, once the game is released and more information appears, it will be easier to increase the article's quality. However, I am still going to provide some things to fix:

The first thing that comes to mind is a rather big problem. "Citation Needed" is littered everywhere throughout the article. These should be cleared up as much as possible. Also, citations need to be formatted using the {{cite}} template.

The second thing that I noticed is large quantities of fictitious elements in the article. Unless the "Darkfall World" had a lasting impact in mainstream culture, then there shouldn't be a section on that at all. The same goes for "Cities, city building and clan warfare", "Playable races" should be reduced to a few sentences, while the rest of gameplay needs to be polished up to represent an encyclopedic value and understandable to people not in video-game circles; refer to WP: Manual of Style.

Development is a decent section, and it can easily pass B-class assessment. However, it belongs at the bottom of the article, just above references and reception. By the way, you need a reception section in this article, and those probably won't surface until the release date draws near. But begin drafting it soon. (Use other VG articles as guidelines).

Finally, the lead would do some good with expansion, but for B-class purposes, it should be last priority.

For the reasons listed above, I am going to have to leave it as C-class. If you feel this assessment is in error, feel free to re-list it. --haha169 (talk) 00:34, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Haha169! I didn't know an assessment had been requested, but it's certainly good to get feedback. I will work with these suggestions in mind. Cheers, Basie (talk) 00:56, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No problem! If you need any help, feel free to ask. I can fix some of the routine and repetitive things, such as downscaling images to fit fair-use policy or Google search for relevant reviews. (I did some work to the fair-use rationale for the map image) Oh, and the assessment was requested at WP:VG. You can re-request once you feel things have been worked up to scratch. :) --haha169 (talk) 06:05, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Might I suggest something else? It is standard to use the box-art of the video game in the infobox whenever possible. I'm not sure if the box-art has been released yet. Is (http://www.gamershell.com/enwiki/static/boxart/large/uk/679.jpg) the correct game? --haha169 (talk) 06:11, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Pretty sure the box art is not available yet. The one you linked is for Dark_Fall_II:_Lights_Out. The game will be released as a pay-for-download, so they may not even have boxes for awhile :) Cheers, Basie (talk) 04:38, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Op63: sorry I had to revert your recent edits, but I did so for the reasons noted in Haha169's assessment (above). Basically, we need to cut down on this stuff and focus on a general encyclopedia article. I agree with Oscarthecat that a list of starting stats for each race is too much detail, although I appreciate it took a fair bit of work to compile them. Cheers, Basie (talk) 04:34, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Audio Visual Enterprises SA: anyone speak greek?

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The link to the news article on http://www.capital.gr had become dead, so I switched it to their (new?) site http://www.audiovisual.gr/. Unfortunately I'm having trouble navigating down to a link concerning Darkfall, because the site is in greek!

If someone can find a more relevant link to Darkfall on the publisher's site, please feel free to post it. Cheers, Basie (talk) 01:00, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've just visited audiovisual.gr, but then I have to choose between a set of sites. Do you know in which of them is the info you need???--Michael X the White (talk) 20:17, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Here are a couple of links:

http://www.audiovisual.gr/aveGroupDetail.aspx?catSerial=001001009002&catId=106&articleId=624

http://www.audiovisual.gr/aveGroupDetail.aspx?catSerial=001001009002&catId=106&articleId=752

They're the only ones I could find and they are placed in their announcements page. I hope they can be of assistance. I trust you can use google translate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.93.108 (talk) 19:42, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much! I'll take a look. Cheers, Basie (talk) 00:14, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism

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Owing to extensive vandalism overnight, I've requested the page be semi-protected for a short time. Thanks to all those who helped revert! Cheers, Basie (talk) 00:15, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

DDOS

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Some one should metion the ddos attack of the dark fall website. The attacks started 22nd jan and are still stoping people from going on to the fourms —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.174.224.60 (talk) 13:21, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is this in any way confirmed? Bacuse this is the first I'm hearing of it. If it is confirmed I think it should be added. Fenrisulfr talk 14:11, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

stealth section

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Can someone who has more knowledge of the game than me rewrite this section. I know what the author is trying to say, but It looks silly to say "pseudo-magically", "pseudo-invisibility", "auto-magical". Instead of making up words, can we try to describe the issue; and express clearly what we're attempting to communicate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.173.240.130 (talk) 17:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]


But i can get onto the forums now, no need.Italic text —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.156.223.147 (talk) 18:18, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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There's a giant total of 18 links to other websites(mainly the darkfall forums) in the article(not counting the external links section). Most of them are superfluos, for example, some of the ones in the "races" category link to a single screenshot. Do we realy need 5 offsite links for all the various mounts we may be able to use in the game? Also, the article in general goes far too in depth on trivial items, for example, the section on attributes adds absolutely nothing to the article in general. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.204.84.128 (talk) 16:24, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Races list in need of an overhaul

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It's overly long, it needs to be condensed into a to-the-point paragraph or three of the races' differences and main selling points without all the trivia (currently in the

  • ) that is there now. Jupix (talk) 08:08, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    Launch

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    I and two other authors have removed this text from the second of the game's launch:

    The main page of Darkfall Online has still not been updated with news of the release, leading the casual observer to think that it is still in beta, and raising serious questions about the competence of the Darkfall Team.
    Anger continues to mount on the Darkfall Forums at what many perceive is the poor management and communication evident in the Darkfall "release". Many claim that Darkfall has not been released at all, but rather is in paid closed beta. Others raise questions about the financing that underlies the Darkfall project, speculating that there is only one server actually available, and that it is only able to handle at most 10000 players.

    In my opinion, it is pretty clear this language is inflammatory. It is speculative and biased, and doesn't belong in the article. I've warned anon user 207.200.138.53 about WP:3RR. He seems to be the editor who added this language, and the one putting it back in.

    Liberal Classic (talk) 02:37, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    I agree with you that these comments should be removed, though I am curious as to why the "Launch" category is written in a past tense when most (if not all) of the issues mentioned are still on-going? This is highlighted by the extensive posting under the "Account Problems" topic on Darkfall's community forum page (which at the time of my writing this, has over 1,200 posts regarding game difficulties; many of which refer to game purchasing and game log-in/authentication issues which would still be classed as 'launch' issues imo). (Lingari (talk) 12:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]

    Reception

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    About Eurogamer review: I played Darkfall for a full month on their German server and I can tell you that the Eurogamer reviewer did a very bad job at understanding the game features. I believe there is no real benefit for Wikipedia readers to have reference links pointing to such an unprofessional review which includes lots of erroneous information. Darkfall is meant by design to be a difficult game which many inexperienced gamers will find very frustrating. It is for sure not the most polished game around but the description published by Eurogamer is far from accurate and the emphasis on the work of that single reviewer in this Wikipedia article is unfairly hurting the game. Astator

    Someone keeps on reverting the Reception section. My revisions are not in a biased point of view. This is how the developers of the game feels in response to Eurogamer's review. There is nothing biased about it. Leave it at that. (Warpandas (talk) 05:26, 9 May 2009 (UTC))[reply]

    I have updated this section to include more references and to fix the tone of the text to NPOV. It's obvious that this section has been edited and reverted repeatedly by people from both the Darkfall and Eurogamer forums, but it's important that Wikipedia's tone remain neutral. Hachimaki (talk) 09:46, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    Thanks Hachimaki. I just want to note that I have no bias with either party. Just wanted to see points of views from both sides. (Warpandas (talk) 15:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC))[reply]

    I understand - I was really just taking what had been posted before and making the language as neutral as possible, in the hope that nobody from either side will take issue and try to revert it again. Hachimaki (talk) 17:29, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    There was another review cited in the article giving a rating of 4 out of 10. What happened to it? Why was mention of it deleted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.99.51.209 (talk) 14:31, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    I added that review, but it was removed by another editor on the basis that it was in Norwegian. I'm not clear on the Wikipedia guidelines on citing non-English resources, so I defer to the other editor on that. I'm sure there will be more English-language reviews soon anyway. Hachimaki (talk) 10:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    I removed the Norwegian article due to WP:NONENG, since there is already an English review, and as you say, there will be more soon. Mjharrison (talk) 17:46, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    Regarding whether the Eurogamer article contains factual errors or not: the Darkfall forum reference given contains the following: "Eurogamer readers and Darkfall players are posting bullet lists of factual errors in the story. The reviewer hadn't even figured out the very basics of the game before he wrote about it." From my reading, if the lead developer/associate producer of the game claims their text contains factual errors about the basic gameplay, I would be inclined to believe it, it is their game after all, and a significant portion of the controversy we are referring to was indeed due to those factual errors. I struggle to see any POV issue with the edit, the facts are simply that there were factual errors about the gameplay in the Eurogamer article. What is in dispute is whether the Darkfall developers or the Eurogamer writer are lying about their playtime. I think the resulting passage still clearly indicates this. Mjharrison (talk) 17:46, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    Rewrite

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    This article seems to be bias towards Darkfall being the greatest game ever. Almost like an ad. I have never played the game so I have no knowledge of it. It just doesn't seem encyclopedic to me. I also realized that it occasionally uses future tense. As if the game hadn't came out yet

    it is the greatest game ever so far :P — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.62.240.79 (talk) 20:37, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

    Subscription model?

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    That's the first thing I want to know when I look up an mmorpg. Is it pay per month, microtransation, free, or what. Ohemgee (talk) 03:30, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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