Talk:Gottlieb Daimler

sources

this article was written by GOOGLING... I promise all the links will be uploaded Sunday or Monday... --Zzzzzzus 22:09, 12 November 2005 (UTC)zzzzzzus

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"Maybach was denied in th8====D--e directory". Huh? I'm presuming it has something to do with a boardroom power struggle, but over what? What was he denied? By whom?

was left aside by the dynamic of the events... was a way to say that. --Zzzzzzus 15:52, 24 December 2005 (UTC)zzzzzzu

The phrase intends a simple explanation hkjjjjjjjhld;julf checked in the Internet.--Zzzzzzus 12:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC)zzzzzzus merry christmas--200.114.235.246 16:08, 24 December 2005 (UTC)zzzzzzus

OK I changed that ... and defined better some other data...--Zzzzzzus 18:53, 14 January 2006 (UTC)zzzzzzus

Neckarsulm Radwerke

Daimler's first true car had its chassis supplied by Christian Schmidt of Neckarsulm Radwerke. Trekphiler 15:02, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Thats interesting, from internet:

NSU automotive manufacture starting from 1905, before motorcycles, bicycles, 1873 as factory for cord machines of Christian Schmidt and Heinrich Scholl based, most important motorcycle factory of the world in the Vorkriegszeit

So... are you meaning the first motorcycle (1885) or the modified stagecoach (1886) ???--Zzzzzzus 12:47, 26 December 2005 (UTC)zzzzzzus

<< This is probably the same internal-combustion engine referred to by American author and historian Henry Adams, who, in his autobiography, describes the "Daimler motor" at the Paris Exposition of 1910 >>

The Paris Exposition was in 1900, the one visited by Henry Adams. A better reference is The Education of Henry Adams, his autobiography written in 1918. I do not know how to write the reference. The book is published now on paper but I do not know publisher, is on line as hyper text at http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/HADAMS/ha_home.html, available from Project Gutenberg, and available from Amazon for a Kindle. The reference to Daimler's engine and vehicle is in Ch XXV, The Dynamo and the Virgin (1900). I believe that Daimler also exhibited at the 1889 Paris Exposition, but I do not have a reliable citation for that. The authors cited as reference for Henry Adams wrote on Modernism

Edited by Vassiliki Kolocotroni, Jane Goldman, and Olga Taxidou Modernism An Anthology of Sources and Documents 654 pages, 6 x 9 © 1999 Paper $40.00 ISBN: 9780226450742 Published February 1999

I do not have the above book, but wonder if it really talks about the Daimler engine and Henry Adams. Preferred sentence is This is probably the same internal-combustion engine referred to by the American author and historian Henry Adams, who describes the "Daimler motor" and its great speed from his visit to the 1900 Paris Exposition in his autobiography. Do I make the changes? Can someone guide me on proper reference format, as to publisher? Prairieplant (talk) 23:04, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

References

Siegfried Marcus inventor of the Car

An Austrian Jew is the real inventor of the first modern Car! Fact!

http://www.viennareview.net/on-the-town/scenes-of-vienna/the-forgotten-inventor-of-the-motor-car

http://www.rokemneedlearts.com/carsindepth/wordpressblog/?p=5702 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.246.222.204 (talk) 11:56, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Lenoir built a car that is in a museum in Paris NOW that is sometimes called the Marcus car. It ran on Hydrogen in 1862. So if anyone was first in building a car it wasn't Marcus. Marcus' cart and later automobile ran more slowly than a slow walking person. They aren't considered to be successful or to deserve much of a place in history as automobiles. The lack of value of his one off device is the reason he's forgotten.

Daimler's Reitwagen ran at over 11 km/h.

"The lack of value of his one off device..." remained unsigned. Or does it go w/o saying - Reichspropagandaministerium? In vorauseilender Gehorsam, HH, u.s.w. Arminden (talk) 08:08, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

These are suggested changes and corrections to improve this page

Digitallymade (talk) 19:57, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2016

This information is provided to correct errors and add facts and references to salient points.

First Section

Clarifying: In 1885 they designed a precursor of the modern petrol (gasoline) engine with they subsequently fitted to a two-wheeler, the first internal combustion motorcycle and, in the next year to a stagecoach, and a boat.

The first Daimler engine was created at Cannstadt in 1883. It achieved the goal of high rpm, but was too large to be effectively used in an automobile due to it's horizontal cylinder arrangement. The 1883 engine is called "Daimler's Dream." Ref: http://wiki.mercedes-benz-classic.com/index.php/Chronik_1883_-_1900/en

The 1885 engine is the "grandfather clock" engine and it was installed in the first automobile which is the Petroleum Reitwagen. This is considered the first Liquid Petroleum vehicle and is often called a motorcycle. The next year the engine is installed in a coach. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Digitallymade (talk • contribs) 20:50, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Pronunciation

The phonetic spelling on this page is unreadable and in German. An English pronunciation should be provided. The English pronunciation would be (Gottleib) Got Leap, (Wilhelm) Vil Helm, (Daimler) Dime Ler. This page will give an audio presentation of the correct pronunciation: http://forvo.com/word/gottlieb_daimler/

The word Gesellschaft translates to "society" but is usually interpreted as Company.

Apprenticed Gunsmith

Nachdem er die Realschule 1848 abgeschlossen hatte, ließ sich Daimler zum Büchsenmacher bei Meister Hermann Raithel ausbilden. 1852 beendete er die Ausbildung mit der Gesellenprüfung. Sein Gesellenstück war eine doppelläufige Taschenpistole.

Translate: After completing secondary school in 1848, Daimler had trained as a gunsmith under Master Gunsmith Hermann Raithel. (bad page reference) In 1852 he ended the training with the trade test. His journeyman was a double-barreled pocket pistol. Source: http://www.mb-w124.de/blog/2010/02/16/gottlieb-wilhelm-daimler/

The word Bucksenmacher is detailed at https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%BCchsenmacher The word translates to Gunsmith. The word Carbine should be replaced with gun or firearm.

There Many Bad Links

There are far too many "links" that point to non-existent or incorrect pages. These should be resolved.

• Raithel (should reference Hermann Raithel)
• School for Advanced Training in the Industrial Arts - remove brackets
• Ferdinand Steinbeis (This should be linked to DE Wiki https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_von_Steinbeis
• F. Rollé und Schwilque is mentioned at Elsässische Maschinenbau-Gesellschaft Grafenstaden
• Friedrich Messmer - remove brackets
• Maschinenfabrik Daniel Straub - wiki page at WMF Group
• Otto & Langen Otto engine The company name was N. A. Otto & Cie and changed the name when they moved to a new factory in Deutz and renamed the company Gasmotoren-Fabrik Deutz today is named Deutz AG - change to read N.A. Otto & Cie
• Leo Funk (Feature Article from Hemmings Motor News October, 2010 - Mike McNessor) states that the inventor of hot tube ignition was an Englishman named Watson.
• Wilhelm Wafter, This is incorrect. The correct name of the coach is actually mentioned earlier on this page and it is Wilhelm Wimpff for which a wiki page already exist https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Wimpff. The incorrect reference appears twice on this page.
• Wilhelm Lorenz German Wiki https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Lorenz

Hot Tube System

This page shows broken link to a non-existent page for a Leo Funk as the developer of the Hot Tube. This page: http://www.emercedesbenz.com/autos/mercedes-benz/classic/mercedes-benz-history-the-route-to-the-riding-car/attachment/mercedes-benz-history-451858_759091_3592_2422_647106c38343a/ notes that Daimler and Maybach used the Hot Tube invented by an Englishman named Watson.

Gasoline did not exist

Although light fractions of petroleum were known gasoline was a class not a definite product. Daimler and Maybach created the first liquid petroleum internal combustion engine and it ran on a fuel trademarked Ligroin. Wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligroin

Later when Bertha Benz made her famous trip in the Benz three wheeler she and her sons stopped at Apothecary shops along the way to buy bottles of Ligroin, which was the fuel used then. http://www.history.com/news/bertha-benz-hits-the-road-125-years-ago

Gasoline was "created" in 1908 by the United States Navy who created a specification for it's distillation. Even then for a very long time the fuel found in hardware stores had to have it Baum reading taken for suitability to run an automobile for a long time.

References to Gasoline as a fuel should be changed. Lenoir's and Otto's engines ran on gaseous fuels (illuminating gas) not gasoline.

1861 in Paris

This should be added.

In 1861 Daimler left Germany for Paris, where he was able to study the two-stroke internal combustion engine that was designed and built by Etienne Lenoir. ref: http://www.gottliebdaimler.com/

1869 and 1871 Structure changes

for Clarification.

Nikolas August Otto and Eugen Langen had started their engine manufacturing company in 1864 and it was named N.A. Otto & Cie (NA Otto and Company) and it was a Partnership. In 1869 another business partner, Ludwig August Roosen-Rungen, was added and the company was renamed to Langen, Otto & Roosen. In 1871 the company was converted into a joint stock company which was named Gasmotoren Fabrik Deutz. ref: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutz_AG

The GAS in Gasmotoren refers to a gaseous fuel which was illumination gas which had been developed in Paris by Philippe LeBon.

The 1883 Daimler's Dream Engine

The first engine created at Cannstadt was produced in 1883. ref: http://carhistory-mercedesbenz.tumblr.com/ ref: http://benz-adji.blogspot.com/2008/07/1883-high-speed-engine-with-hot-tube.html

"In 1883, he and Maybach developed a small engine that could operate at 600 rpm and then at 900 rpm with an 1884 advancement." ref: http://www.gottliebdaimler.com/ This is a horizontal cylinder engine. I do not currently have the "dream" reference link but will find it.

"On August 15, 1883, the longstanding Kurtz bell foundry in Stuttgart delivered cast parts to Gottlieb Daimler in Cannstatt for a new type of engine. This was the first step in the development of the modern automobile drive system. That summer, Daimler worked with Wilhelm Maybach on the high-speed, horizontal test engine featuring a hot-tube ignition system." ref: http://mercedes-benz-blog.blogspot.com/2008/07/1883-high-speed-engine-with-hot-tube.html

Photo proof: In photographs of the shop in Cannstadt the 1883 "Daimler's Dream" engine and the 1885 Petroleum can be seen. Although small in the photograph the 1883 engine is on the work bench photo 13 of the gallery: http://www.emercedesbenz.com/autos/mercedes-benz/classic/mercedes-benz-history-the-route-to-the-riding-car/attachment/mercedes-benz-history-788863_1446020_5616_3744__46g2481/#gallery

1885 Grandfather Clock Engine

In order to use the Daimler engine in a vehicle Daimler and Maybach created a vertical cylinder engine in 1885. It was placed in a two wheeled wooden frame of primitive design as a test platform. This vehicle is known as the Petroleum Reitwagen. All the engines that could run on liquid fuel used Petroleum Naptha (brand name Ligroin) as their fuel. Because of the perception that this fuel was so dangerous Daimler used the suberterfuge on the patent application of simply calling the vehicle the "Petroleum Reitwagen" or Petroleum Riding Car (in English). ref: http://www.gottliebdaimler.com/ also seen on the patent drawings on this file from commons

Citations Needed from the section grandfather clock engine 1885

The title of this section should be added for the Daimler engine of 1883. ref:http://mercedes-benz-blog.blogspot.com/2008/07/1883-high-speed-engine-with-hot-tube.html and it is NOT the Grandfather Clock engine at that time. A photograph of the 1883, the first high speed liquid petroleum engine is found here: http://benz-adji.blogspot.com/2008/07/1883-high-speed-engine-with-hot-tube.html

• In late 1885,(citation needed)Daimler and Maybach developed the first of their petrol engines, The 1885 engine was the 2nd Daimler liquid petroleum, not the first.
• 600 (citation needed) rpm running speed, The 1885 Grandfather clock engine was achieving 700 rpm ref: http://www.gottliebdaimler.com/

Otto Patents

Otto's patents would have prevented Daimler from selling his engines without royalty. He hired a legal firm who found a patent for an unbuilt four cycle engine that had been issued previously to a French Engineer name Beau De Rochas. Although Rochas never built an engine, it was used to overturn 1 or Otto's 25 patents. The only one overturned was the German Patent, which allowed Daimler to patent his engine and lead to Daimler's creation of the company that is today know as Daimler-Benz. ref: http://www.carbibles.com/enginehistory.html

Wilhelm Lorenz

"In the founded in 1890 section, Daimler-Motoren-Gesellschaft (DMG) Lorenz was the largest shareholder after Daimler. From 1890 to 1926 he was a member of the Supervisory Board of DMG, 1899-1903 Deputy Chairman and then Chairman until 1909." ref German wiki page https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Lorenz

Pact with the Devil

The attached reference is correct. From 1882 until 1890 Daimler had resisted making his company into an incorporation or stock company. He had seen what happened to too many engineers who had pioneered a capital project as he had. Many of them were forced out of their own companies by stock holders who "knew better" about how to run the company that they had just purchased than the man who created it. This is a very common occurrence in the business world. It happened to Henry Ford, August Horch (Audi), and Gottleib Daimler.

Daimler hated having to incorporate his company. Unable to obtain majority control, he sold out and then resigned. ref: https://books.google.com/books?id=EdwsCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA236&lpg=PA236&dq=daimler+fired+from+dmg&source=bl&ots=SDkyo91Put&sig=U5sxB6SJbIp9m8xQXxI_1xhHhac&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw5o7mhNjNAhVMbj4KHTQ8BVYQ6AEIUTAH#v=onepage&q=daimler%20fired%20from%20dmg&f=false

the following needs to be added/clarified.

1893 Departure

Returning from the 1893 World's Fair in Chicago with his new wife, Daimler had vowed to purchase enough shares of DMG to regain control. This effort failed. Daimler sold all his shares and patents and resigned from the Company. Maybach had left earlier. ref: https://books.google.com/books?id=EdwsCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA236&lpg=PA236&dq=daimler+fired+from+dmg&source=bl&ots=SDkyo91Put&sig=U5sxB6SJbIp9m8xQXxI_1xhHhac&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw5o7mhNjNAhVMbj4KHTQ8BVYQ6AEIUTAH#v=onepage&q=daimler%20fired%20from%20dmg&f=false

1894 Race results in a Return

Daimler and Maybach continued to work together. They built a four cylinder engine with Maybach' spray nozzle carburetor. It was in the first organized automobile race, the "Paris to Rouen" and defeated all the entried from DMG. This caused DMG stock to fall. Frederick Simms, a major investor from Britain insisted that Daimler be brought back into the company. REF: http://www.nndb.com/people/288/000174763/

1926 Merger forms Daimler-Benz AG

The company that Gottleib Daimler founded merges with the company Karl Benz created. On June 28, 1926 representatives of Daimler-Motoren-Gesellschaft (DMG) and Benz & Cie. signed the agreement for the merger of the two oldest automobile manufacturers in the world. ref: http://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite/en/instance/ko/Merger-in-the-Year-1926-DMG-and-Benz--Cie-merge-to-become-Da.xhtml?oid=12358477

Digitallymade (talk) 21:29, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. — JJMC89 (T·C) 22:50, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Coach

please change ((coach)) to ((Coach (carriage)|coach))

 Done thanks for the suggestion - Arjayay (talk) 16:59, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

The Wilhelm Wimpff model ordered by Daimler was the "American" model. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Digitallymade (talk • contribs) 22:00, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Fuel used in early engines is NOT gasoline.

In 1860 Lenoir ran his engines and experimental automobiles on both illuminating gas and on Hydrogen. He built a car in 1862 that used a battery to electrolize water and then used the Hydrogen to run his engine. He car would barely move, it was faster to walk.

Lenoir's engine was simply a steam cylinder and it was double acting being powered in both directions. Otto's Engines prior to 1883 also ran exclusively on illuminating gas. He liquid petroleum engines came later.

The fuel gasoline (or petrol) did not exist in 1883 when Daimler and Maybach created their first engine. The fuel then was Petrol Naptha and it was sold under the brand name Ligroin. Gasoline as a specific product, was standardized in 1908 by the United States Navy. Prior to that the light fractions of petroleum used to fuel Internal Combustion Engines (ICE) had to be tested by they buyer for the specific gravity in order to ensure usability. They were measured then by the Baum rating. A Handbook of the Petroleum Industry Vol I

Later it was discovered that simply measuring the specific gravity of the liquid ensured suitable combustion properties. Digitallymade (talk) 21:59, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

The 1883 image does work for me. Gottlieb Daimler

It's rarely found and corrects the false impression that D&M created the 1885 engine first. So I've put it back. The only reason I don't show it directly is that It's not public domain. This is the FIRST compressed charged, liquid Petroleum, four cycle engine in history. In which case it's the MOST important. Digitallymade (talk) 12:47, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Digitallymade You cannot put a link to an image in a Wikipedia article that you know is not in the public domain. Please do not replace that link in the article, especially as it is not visible in the article, and especially as it is not in the public domain, and that can lead to copyright violation; see WP:COPYVIO. I disagree that the existence of a photo on some blog corrects any misconceptions. Please make your point about which engine was built first in the text, with proper citations.

As a side note, please stop using those bare url references; instead, use a normal Wikipedia format so the title is included, date of the citation and the date you added it to the article -- called access-date in the cite news, cite web, or cite book format. When a link is changed, as often happens, it is very difficult for some future editor or bot to find what you were citing. Plus it is challenging for a reader of the article to know what the source is about, with only a url to read. --Prairieplant (talk) 13:05, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

--Prairieplant (talk) 13:45, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't know that the image is not in public domain. I put in the best looking photo that I could find. I could have pointed to the Daimler-Benz history cite, which would definitely be copyrighted as the same image is there. The purpose of a citation is to substantiate that what we state is true. A photograph showing that the 1883 engine is not the 1885 engine certainly does that. Since too many pages attribute the origin of the Otto engine to the wrote engine and the wrong image I think we should use correct data or none at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Digitallymade (talk • contribs) 13:55, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Digitallymade No one is suggesting the use of incorrect data. The Daimler Benz history site is already referenced in this article, not much need to use it again, is there? You can say in words that the engine patented in 1883 looks different than the engine as modified in 1885, known as the Grandfather Clock engine. If you know the differences between the engines, you could describe them, especially if one of the sources already cited lists those differences, or you have another source that lists the differences in words. The text for 1883 already says it is the first engine, it worked and it was patented. The following section about the 1885 vehicle running with the engine in it is not very clear. Did Daimler make three engines looking like the one he patented in 1883, one of which was placed in a vehicle; or did he make three modified engine that gained a new name for its shape and place one of them in a vehicle? Many people are interested in the first vehicle propelled by the internal combustion engine, as much or more than you are concerned with the engine designs. Whatever is bothering you that "some people think", is that what is said in the article now? If not said, there is nothing more to do. If so, revise the sentences to say clearly what is true. I gave a few suggestions at the start of this paragraph and I think most of that discussion belongs in the section on the 1885 engine and vehicle.

Your link leads to a photo in a blog. You stated that the photo is not in the public domain, I quoted you. And it is not needed as the image is already at the Daimler Benz history web site. There are two sources on the 1883 section, which presumably make clear the points you hold true -- that a working engine was both patented and built in 1883, and the engine could be throttled so as to change speed in a vehicle, and that its appearance is different from the engine made in 1885 and used in a vehicle. It is not clear why you need a third source. You did not put that image as a reference (between ref and /ref), but as odd text pointing to an image, not the Wikipedia style for article content. When I said the image did not show in the article, I meant that literally -- no image. You meant a line of text that is half of a reference, a link to a wobbly source. Am I beginning to be clear to you? It feels like I am repeating myself in these notes. Plus if there is more to be said, we should move this discussion to the Talk page for the Gottlieb Daimler article. --Prairieplant (talk) 14:29, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

All wikipedia references point to copyrighted material a lot of which is direct quoted. Otherwise there is no reason to have a citation of any kind. Furthermore, many of the sources cited, partifularly web sites are often in error. There is no authority to someones opinion, and the documents referenced as "substantiation" are (almost) all copyrighted. I'm sure you are aware of the person who posted deliberately false information on wikipedia, which was then cited as true by others based on his fraudulent entry. There probably are public domain versions of the 1883 photo, but I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it since I have followed the rules, which is to point to where the truth is without copying it to a wiki page.

Many of the pages I see are woefully inaccurate. I prefer for them to be accurate. I've spend 20 YEARS on this history and translated no end of web sources which appear to have a high degree of authority. People should be told that the 1883 is the first ICE with compression, not the 1855 engine. A photograph, which is located on the Daimler-benz site in truncated form, but fully where I pointed to it clearly shows the truth. I have much more information about this engine that I do not have current links to since many website have disappeared.

I don't agree with your point of view. If you know a better and more authoritative way to prove the veracity of the 1883 engine as the first Otto engine, please let me know. Better yet, enter it yourself.Digitallymade (talk) 00:36, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Discussion moved here from my talk page, as it is pertinent to other editors. Can the present sources be used to clarify the text on 1883 and 1885 engines? Are further sources needed? --Prairieplant (talk) 09:26, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Organization of article

The section titled Early life to 1852 covered his life beyond 1882, not matching the section title. I extended Early life to include education ending in 1862, when he worked for a company full time. That is the start of his career, working for others. In 1882 he left Otto's company and worked independently on engine designs, so the text was merged into that section, with a new title. The Daimler Motors began with the Phoenix engine, so that section title was slightly revised. Text referring to a specific year was moved into that titled section. If wording is not smooth, or sources do not agree, I hope someone who has access to the sources will smooth out the text. --Prairieplant (talk) 12:08, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

German to English

Much more needs to be done. Right now it's a Frankenstein monster. Arminden (talk) 08:04, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Grandfather cock engine inconsistencies

In the Gottlieb Daimler#Grandfather clock engine (1885) section we have:

• An 1885 0.5 hp engine with a vertical cylinder built into the Reitwagen vehicle.
• An 1885 0.5 hp engine of 264 cc with a horizontal cylinder.
• An 1885 1 hp engine with a 100 cc vertical cylinder. It is not clear if the vertical cylinder replaces or augments the horizontal cylinder. Not clear if the total capacity is 100 cc, 364 cc (100+264) or 200 cc (100+100) although the article does say it is larger than the previous engine.
• A November 1885 engine of smaller capacity (compare to which 1885 engine?) which for the first time was fitted to the Reitwagen vehicle - as opposed to the other 1885 engine(s) fitted to the Reitwagen vehicle(s).

Frankly, I can't make heads or tails of how many engines, of what configuration (horizontal/vertical, single/twin cylinder), which ones were fitted to the Reitwagen or the date order of the engines. Any help would be appreciated.  Stepho  talk  02:58, 6 August 2023 (UTC)