Talk:Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedow/Archive 1

Archive 1

previous discussion - (heading added by 83.100.132.31 21:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC) later on to tidy talk page)

Presumably, this means that the State Security Council of Turkmenistan (aka National Security Council of Turkmenistan, Security Council of Turkmenistan) are the real power brokers in the country. Can we have an article about it? Who's on it? Army leaders? -- Karada 13:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The Security Council is mentioned in the 2003 constitution [1] but not in the 1992 constitution [2], and it's only mentioned that the Security Council is guided by the president. The 1995 Law on defence [3] says that the president defines the powers of the Security Council. That's all I was able to find, this is hardly enough for an article. Conscious 08:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

philip shushurin

Spelling

Turkmen spelling from here; Russian from the Russian article in the reference section. --Cam 20:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but this is just getting so stupid. If these Turkmen chauvanists continue to pursue the idea that President Berdimuhammedov's should be spelled in Turkmen then why not spell Rachmaninov's name in Russian? Or Hu Jintao's name in Chinese. I propose that we spell the name in the proper ENGLISH transliteration and then as we do for everything else, show how it is spelled in the native language later in the paragraph. This is, after all the English wikipedia. --Alex40045

Forget these "Turkmen chauvinists". They don't care about Berdimuhammedow's spelling. The idea that his name should be spelled in Turkmen doesn't come from them, but only from all those people who can see that French men's names are spelled in French, German men's name are spelled in German and Czech men's names are spelled in Czech and who think "let's do 'as we do for everything else' ". A transliteration is (roughly) a transformation from an alphabet to another. Since Turkmen is written with a latin script, there is nothing to "transliterate". And as you can see here, there is no existing "proper English translitteration" of this name. Švitrigaila 15:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

You're wrong about the alphabet. It's not the "Latin" alphabet but instead the English and Turkmen alphabets. Yes, there are similarities in the two because they both come from the Latin alphabet however there are differences in letters and pronunciation, one being the "w". If President Berdimuhammedov was to be in an English news article his name would be spelled with a "v" as that is the proper letter in English. If in English the letter "w" had the same sound as the letter "v" then there would be no dispute but there is a distinct difference. --Alex40045

Is there anything in what you say that couldn't apply to German or Polish names too? For example, what about :"You're wrong about the alphabet. It's not the "Latin" alphabet but instead the English and German alphabets. Yes, there are similarities in the two because they both come from the Latin alphabet however there are differences in letters and pronunciation, one being the "w". If Richard Wagner was to be in an English news article his name would be spelled with a "v" as that is the proper letter in English. If in English the letter "w" had the same sound as the letter "v" then there would be no dispute but there is a distinct difference." ? And the same question replacing "German" by "Polish" and "Richard Wagner" by "Włodzimierz Cimoszewicz"? Švitrigaila 11:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I propose that we spell the name in the proper ENGLISH transliteration and then as we do for everything else, show how it is spelled in the native language later in the paragraph. This is, after all the English wikipedia. Do you see anything wrong with that proposal? And I don't see what you mean by replacing German with Polish... But people like Włodzimierz Cimoszewicz are exactly my point. How would English speaking people know that the name is pronounced as Vladimir Simoshevich? That's why we need the English transliteration as the main article name. --Alex40045

So, you propose to rename the article Włodzimierz Cimoszewicz to Vladimir Simoshevich if I clearly understand you? (I'm not sure I clearly do.) And if you do, I suppose you agree to rename the article Richard Wagner to Richard Vagner, don't you? Švitrigaila 09:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

And how would you propose spelling Immanuel Kant --- the best English transliteration would end up being caught in all manner of porn/obscenity filters. Bigdaddy1981 21:03, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Turkmen article

When it's created, it will presumably be at tk:Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedow: or possibly tk:Gurbanguly Berdimukhamedov? -- Karada 21:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Meanwhile, a meatier article facts can be brought over from is at ru:Бердымухаммедов, Гурбангулы Мяликкулиевич Chris 12:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Spelling

As Turkmen uses Latin script, wouldn't it make sanse to spell the name like it is spelt in Turkmen, rather than use a transcription from Cyrillic? Rain74 22:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I see it's been moved to a new spelling. Note that the CIA recently spelled the name Gurbanguly Berdimukhamedov.[4] --Cam 00:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

A Turkmen government website in a press release spells it Gurbanguly Myalikguliyevich Berdymuhammedov (the middle name is a patronymic). I don't know if we should take that as an official English spelling at this stage. --Cam 00:36, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I think we should make it Gurbanguly Berdymuhammedov. Actually, I tried to move his page to this name; however, there is already a redirect page there. So somebody should ask an admin to move it manually. I also notice that the current spelling - Gurbanguly Berdymukhamedov - returns the most hits from Google news... Óðinn 17:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Turkmen language uses both Latin and Cyrillic scripts. And the sounds assigned to letters in Turkmen are not identical to English. Saparmurat Niyazov in Turkmen is Saparmyrat Nyýazow. Óðinn 18:12, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I can't see why this name must be translitterated. Turkmen language used to use Cyrillic script, but it has been shift to Latin script several years ago. Now Latin script is the only official script there. So there is of course no need to "translitterate" that name. The only right spelling is Gurbanguly Berdimugammedow, and that's all. I can't see why the CIA's spelling (Gurbanguly Berdymukhamedov) would be more correct than the BBC's (Kurbanguly Berdymukhamedov [5]). And why those two spellings should supplant the only original Turkmen spelling. Gurbanguly Berdymukhamedov is only the tranlitteration of his Russian name Гурбангулы Бердымухамедов. The decision to use Russian names instead of local names for every citizens of the former Soviet Union (see Wikipedian arguments Mikheil Saakashvili vs. Mikhail Saakashvili, Islom Karimov vs. Islam Karimov, Rəsul Quliyev vs. Rasul Gouliev, Armen Sargsyan vs. Armen Sarkisian...) can be the result of the lack of sources from some places: every journalist covering the events in Turkmenistan are based in Russia and use Russian language sources. But if we know the correct form of the names, there's no reason not to use it. Using Russian instead of the official language is a form a colonialism, which is often kept alive by the rulers of those countries themselves who have great contempt for their own culture and find far much "stylish" to use Russian names. Švitrigaila 14:05, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

There isn't a single English media outlet referring to him as Berdimuhammedow. The Turkmen Government website refers to him as Gurbanguly Myalikguliyevich Berdymuhammedov. It is as official as it gets. I really hope no one in their right mind will try to blame the Turkmen government of succumbing to the dreadful Russian colonialism? I will therefore rename the article to Gurbanguly Berdymuhammedov. Óðinn 21:19, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

The two only "official forms" are Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedow in Turkmen and Гурбангулы Бердымухамедов in Russian. Gurbanguly Berdymukhamedov is only the translitteeration from the Russian form of the name and it is not "official" by itself. If this site was written in French or German, it would be written Gourbangouly Berdymoukhammedov and Gurbanguly Berdymuchamedow respectivly. Now you must think what's the usefulness to use the Russian form instead of the Turkmen one if you have to transform it in order to have it readable for the English reader. The fact the Berdymukhamedov form is more often found in western newspaper has no importance since Wikipedia has the great advantage to have authomatic redirects. Švitrigaila 12:39, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you realize that "W" in Turkmen and English have very distinct sounds assigned to them? And this will thus misrepresent the presiden't name for the English speakers? This is an English Wikipedia after all, not a Turkmen one. Óðinn 21:53, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Name disputed

I provided a reference from the Turkmen official website showing that Gurbanguly Berdymuhammedov is the English form of the name of the Turkmen president. User Švitrigaila keeps changing the name to Berdimuhammedow, providing no references for his original research. Please state your thought on the matter. Óðinn 21:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that it's OK to use the Turkmen spelling. The good thing about it is that it doesn't have any letters which are too weird for English reader, like Ə in Azeri (see the big argument about Ilham Aliyev vs. İlham Əliyev).

Of course, the people who designed the current spelling in the nineties have made same totally weird decisions, such as using Y for Turkish dotless I (Turkmen Berdy would be written Berdı in Turkish) and using ý where in Turkish a y would be written (Nyýazow).

Also, for some reason which totally eludes me they chose to represents the v sound with a w. If you ask me - it's their problem. If they made up this stupid alphabet for themselves, they shouldn't complain that people mispronounce their names. It doesn't to seem the Poles too much - there are a lot of Poles whose names end in -owski and they are written like that in English text, even though they should be pronounced -ovski.

Personally, i hope that now that Turkmenbashi is dead, they'll have some reforms in the country and fix the alphabet on the way. And then we'll fix it in Wikipedia too.

And finally, anyone who has enough brain to read Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedow in the first place, is also smart enough to read the explanation about the w in Turkmen alphabet. --Amir E. Aharoni 07:49, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

It seems awfully presumptuous to assume that someone with a passing interest in central Asian politics should be willing to make the effort to learn the intricacies of Turkmen language Romanization. Why not simply have the article title in it's most commonly used, phonetic English form since we are writing for English speakers after all. See WP:ENGLISH. —Dgies^t c 00:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm against assuming that our readers are dumb and/or unwilling to learn. The correct romanisation should be used; if the most common form of the name happens to be wrong, tough luck. Just because e e cummings was by far the most common rendering of the author's name doesn't mean the articles is at that name; it's at E. E. Cummings instead, which is the *correct* way to write his name. —Nightstallion (?) 14:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

But what is the "correct" romanisation of Turkmen? Is there a law about it in Turkmenistan or in any English-speaking country? Is there a convention among linguists about it?

If there is none, then the spelling should be brought in directly from Turkmen-Latin, because of the reasons i wrote above. The letters and their sounds are not too weird for the average English reader; they are (arguably) easier than Turkish.

As i already stated, personally i think that the official new Latin spelling rules of Turkmen should have been more like Azeri Latin or Tatar Latin, but that's just my opinion.

What Wikipedia definitely should not do is to follow the practice of transliterating names related to former Soviet republics from Russian. Turkmen names should be transliterated from Turkmen, not from Russian. --Amir E. Aharoni 15:13, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

That's precisely what I meant to say. —Nightstallion (?) 02:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Here are some recent spellings I have found in the press. I am inclined to imitate these rather than use the Turkmen Latin spelling:

• RFE/RL: Gurbanguly Berdymukhammedov.[6][7][8]
• BBC: Gurbanguly Berdymukhamedov [9] and Kurbanguly Berdymukhamedov.[10]
• Reuters: Kurbanguly Berdymukhamedov.[11][12][13]
• The New York Times: Gurbanguly Berdymukhammedov.[14][15]
• The Associated Press: Gurbanguli Berdymukhamedov.[16]
  --Cam 17:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree with Nightstallion and Amir E. Aharoni. Berdimuhammedow derivates from two first names: Berdi and Muhammed. Berdi can't be rendered by Berdy in a Turkish language because of the rule of vowel harmony. That is to say, a name like "bardy" is possible, a name like "berdi" is possible, but not a name like "berdy". The Y spelling is only the transcription, using Wikipedia:Romanization of Russian or not, of the Russian transcription of his name: Берды. In this case, the ы (y) instead of и (i) indicates that the д (d) before is hard, and not soft (see Russian phonology). It's only a metter of Russian spelling according to Russian phonology. It has nothing to do with the Turkmen form of the name. So the question is: why using the Russian form instead of the Turkmen form? Ther is no reason to imitate the different spellings you can find on other sources. The simple fact all these sources use different spelling is a matter of question. The argument "Let's do like that because the other do, whaterver the reason they have to do it" is not a good argument. Švitrigaila 18:10, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm completely lost.

Is the Turkmen spelling Berdy or Berdi? --Amir E. Aharoni 07:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

In Turkmen, it's always Berdi. In Russian, it's Берды, that is Berdy (using Wikipedia:Romanization of Russian). I remind you the only official language of Turkmenistan is Turkmen, not Russian. Švitrigaila 11:47, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Strange - the Russian version of this Wikipedia article says that the Turkmen spelling is Gurbanguly Berdymuhammedow. Does anyone know for sure what the real Turkmen spelling is? I am totally confused. --Amir E. Aharoni 11:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The U.S. Embassy in Aşgabat spells it Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedow in a recent press release in Turkmen.[17] The Türkmen news has Gurbanguly Mälikguyýewiç Berdimuhammedow. Their Mälikguyýewiç is apparently a typo for Mälikgulyýewiç, it's spelled the latter way in the video linked on that page. --Cam 00:09, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I have corrected the Russian page. It's Berdi in Turkmen. I didn't know this site, and it's very interresting to correct Turkmen presidential election, 2007. Švitrigaila 00:49, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the links. Looks convincing. --Amir E. Aharoni 10:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Just because in Turkmenistan they use a "w" for the English "v" does not mean we should use it. As this is the English Wikipedia we should be using the English alphabet. So unless his name is pronounced with a "W" at the end then I see no reason for us to keep it this way. --User:Alex40045

Why don't you try to rename the Richard Wagner article into Richard Vagner? Or A Fish Called Wanda into A Fish Called Vanda? Švitrigaila 13:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The second example doesn't quite work, since the language the film is in wouldn't render "Wanda" with a "v" at the beginning. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 13:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

In the film, she says herself that her name must be pronounced "Vanda" and not "Wanda". Švitrigaila 17:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Which is not at all what I was saying. The composer went through his entire life pronouncing his surname with a sound which in English would be rendered with a V. The film, however, is in English, where the name is pronounced with a W sound at the start. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 21:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

So bad -- I was proud of this example. :o) Švitrigaila 14:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

If we don't change his name to end with a "V" then how about we make all the Chinese people pages into Chinese and all the Russian pages into Russian. We-are-using-the-English-Alphabet. It's that simple, if you want to continue with your Turkmen nationalism then go ahead but please spare English reader the trouble of finding out how to properly pronounce Mr. Berdimuhammedov's name... User:Alex40045

Is it German nationalism to force English readers to find out how to properly pronounce Richard Wagner's name? Is it Spanish nationalism to force English readers to find out how to properly pronounce Carlos Westendorp's name? Is it Polish nationalism (or even Catholic bigotry) to force English readers to find out how to properly pronounce Karol Wojtyla's name? I don't care how you pronounce Berdimuhammedow's name because, if don't speak Turkmen, you pronounce it badly, what ever the spelling used. The Turkmen W is neither pronounced [v] nor [w]. It's pronounced [β]. And if you can't pronounce an -ow ending, just rename the article Moscow into something else! Švitrigaila 23:28, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

But "Westerndorp" isn't a spanish name, and that symbol you just showed us, it does not mean what you think it means. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.254.246.237 (talk) 14:13, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

You seem to care very strongly about this and I don't think you will be convinced of another position, but I'm not sure you're convincing anyone else either. Perhaps you should try not caring about this and work on something else for a while. —Dgies^t c 23:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

And I suggest those who want to rename the article to stop to make me wasting my time too. Švitrigaila 12:23, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The correct, and most common english spelling utilizes a V. ~Rangeley (talk) 21:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment: the pronunciation of 'dow' in Berdimuhammedow sounds like 'dof' - not 'β' surely which would be 'doss'?87.102.7.220 13:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

That's a beta (β), not an eszett (ß). In the International Phonetic Alphabet, /β/ represents a voiced bilabial fricative: the closest English equivalent is "v". Double sharp (talk) 10:33, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

In any case, it's Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.... especially if you show folks how to pronounce it in a way they'll understand (and, no, linguistic symbols, being esoteric, don't count.)204.52.215.107 19:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

All Russianised Central Asian names have endings in "ов" and "аев", and they are all transliterated with a "v" in English, not a "w" (see Saparmurat Niyazov) for the simple reason that the latter represents the wrong sound in English. Those who have some sort of absurd nationalist beef with this should write to Mr Berdymuhammedov and ask him to drop the Russian ending to his name altogether. English Wikipedia is designed to be an accessible source for English-speakers, using the most common forms of all names, not their 'official' or 'scientifically transcribed' versions. Some people seem more concerned with showing off their knowledge of modern Turkmen diacritics than putting together an informative article. A word to the pedants - such forms of transliteration into the latin script are incomprehensible to those who do not know the language in question and unnecessary for those who do. Just drop it. Sikandarji 07:38, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

But we don't care about pronounciation. I don't care how to pronounce Russian names since he's not Russian. I don't care about the etymology of his name, because it won't change its actual spelling. His name is spelled Berdimuhammedow in Turkmen. Turkmen is the only official language in Turkmenistan. Berdimuhammedow is his only name. And you can't invent a new one in an encyclopedia just because you don't know how to pronounce it. Švitrigaila 12:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Look, this is ENGLISH Wikipedia - even the Turkmen Government spells his name with a "v" in English! His name may be Berdimuhammedow in Turkmen, but in English it is Berdimuhammedov. If you don't like it then go and edit the Turkmen wikipedia instead: I imagine it could do with your help. Sikandarji 13:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

So what if this is the English wikipedia? There are some strange misconceptions here. The point is very simple: The Turkmen language now uses the latin script. In terms of names of Turkmen people, it is therefore quite obvious that they are written the way they are written in Turkmen. It is not common practice on English wikipedia to transliterate names written in the Latin alphabet, into some attempt at a phonetic English spelling. If it had been, there would be a lot of work to do. Thorbjørn Jagland would have to be moved to Torbyurn Yagland, Jarosław Kaczyński would have to move to Yaroswav Kachinski or some such, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero to, maybe, Hossay Luis Rothrigueth Thapatero? Where would it end? Keep the article on Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedow, because that is the guy's name! --Barend 15:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

It's his name in Turkmen - but not in English. see here. The "ov" ending is just a russification anyway. If you really wanted to "Turkmenify" it you'd drop it altogether and he'd be "Gurbanguly Berdimuhammad". And because it comes from Russian, it has to follow the usual rules for transliteration from Cyrillic, where "в" becomes "v" (not unreasonably, given that they represent the same sound, which "w" does not). I don't understand where this notion that his name should be spelled with a "w" comes from anyway. Even the Turkmen Government, which generally leads the way in obfuscation and obscurantism, spells it with a "v" on its English-language websites. The other latin writing systems you refer to are all well-established and well-known to English-speakers. That for Turkmen is not (and even within Turkmenistan most people are more familiar with cyrillic). If we're going to play the consistency card here, then I suggest you look at the pages for other Central Asian dictators (Saparmurat Niyazov, Islam Karimov). Leave the article where it is, and most people will assume that you pronounce the last syllable of his name as if you'd just stubbed your toe painfully. Sikandarji 16:18, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you have never noticed that the article about Islom Karimov is in fact spelled with a "o". Of course the article about Saparmyrat Nyýazow shoud be spelled "Saparmyrat Nyýazow" as it is in German Wikipedia, French Wikipedia, Spanish Wikipedia, and so on. I don't know why you want to drop the -ow of Berdimuhammedow and change his "e" into "a". You invent a rule saying Turkmen citizens can't have a -ow ending when most of them have. Maybe you'll pretend that my compatriot Nicolas Ivanoff must drop his -off if he wants to be French? You invent another rule saying a Turkmen "w" is pronounced like an English "v" which is wrong too (see Turkmen_language#Consonants). And finally you invent a distinction between languages using Latin alphabet that "are all well-established and well-known to English-speakers" and languages using Latin alphabet that are not. There is obviously no serious ground for such a distinction except either racist or collonialist views. Švitrigaila 16:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

There's no need for insults - I'm trying to explain to you how this appears to a native English-speaker. There is an obvious distinction to be made between an article in English, and one in Turkmen. As I said above, even the Turkmen Government spells his name with a "v" on English-language websites. Obscure diacritics may delight the pedant and soothe the chippiness of the over-sensitive nationalist, but they are just a pain in the neck for the ordinary reader. I didn't say I wanted to drop the "ov" from Berdimuhammedov's name - I simply said that if one were serious about eliminating Russian influence, one would do so, because "ov" is a Russianised suffix which no Turkmen would have used in pre-colonial times. "off" is another recognised transliteration of "ов", much more common in French, and considered archaic in English, but so what? And Karimov's name is always spelled "Islam", because it happens to be a recognised term in English. Wikipedia policy is to espouse common English-language usage rather than seeking to play politics with obscure spellings. The bottom line here is that to an English-speaker "OW" looks and sounds like an exclamation of pain. It bears no resemblance to how these letters are meant to be pronounced. Sikandarji 17:50, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I've got to agree - transliteration in english (not german) should give 'ov' or 'off' - maybe if you two continue to disagree we should start another discussion - giving other editors a chance to say their bit - and get some consensus. Personally I think the 'ov' ending would be preferable.87.102.9.154 18:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

It is bemusing how factual information just seems to have no effect whatsoever in discussions like this, but I'll try repeating some information:

• We are not talking about "transliteration" here. Turkmen uses the latin alphabet. His name is Turkmen is Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedow.
• If what you want to do is to transliterate the Russian name, as indeed a quick google check will show that most media outlets do, than that would be Gurbanguly Berdymukhammedov. Berdimuhammedov is neither here nor there.
• Karimov's name is not always spelled Islam. Check for instance the article on English wikipedia - under Islom Karimov. Get your facts straight!
• What do you mean by "obscure diacritics"? We are talking about v or w here. Where are the diacritics?
• The way a name looks to an English language speeker is irrelevant - all languages use the latin alphabet in their own different ways. There is nothing special about Turkmen in this respect. We don't change the names of Poles, Turks or Indonesians. We shouldn't randomly change the names of Turkmens. --Barend 21:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

....and his name in English is Berdimuhammedov! (or perhaps Berdymuhammedov) - How many times does this need to be repeated? Have a look at this rather unpleasant Turkmen Government English-language website, and you will see quite clearly that they do not use the Turkmen latin versions of personal names, because even they can see how incomprehensible these would be to outsiders. Diacritics? Well, assigning "w" a sound which it does not carry in English and expecting people to understand it seems pretty obscure to me, but in any case I was referring to Švitrigaila's brilliant suggestion that Saparmurat Niyazov should be moved to "Saparmyrat Nyýazow" (can you work out how his surname should be pronounced? I come up with something that sounds like my cat when she's hungry). By and large we do tend to use transliterations from the Russian of Central Asian names as these are more familiar, but in the case of the cyrillic "X" there is no point in doing this as the latin script has a perfectly good "H", and "kh" does not reflect how the word is pronounced. Karimov's name may sometimes be written "Islom", but I was referring to the fact that Islam is a recognised term with a recognised spelling, and not surprisingly that predominates. Finally, I actually strongly disapprove of using non-English latin writing systems in the titles and text of articles on English wikipedia. By all means give the correct spelling in whatever version of the latin script is relevant in the introduction, but otherwise accessibility is more important than pedantry. In the case of a language whose modern latin orthography is as unknown as that of Turkmen this is even more important. Sikandarji 22:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

In your opinion, that is his name in English. In my opinion, it is not common practice in English to translate foreign names. It is indeed an interesting fact that the Turkmen government website use a transcribed form of the Russian-language names, rather than the official Turkmen forms. It is equally interesting that the front page of the government website is written in Russian.[18] But it is more a curiosity, than relevant to our discussion here. The article on Turkmenistan gives Turkmen as the official language. Do you want to change it to Russian because that is the language on the government website? As for your touching regard for the poor English-speakers who won't know how to pronounce his name - you're simply not being consistent. How many English speakers do you think instinctively understand the right way to pronounce Ahmet Necdet Sezer or Mário Soares? Then we should move their articles to a constructed phonetic spelling as well! You strongly disapprove of using non-English latin writing systems - than go ahead and suggest moving Davíð Oddsson, Slobodan Milošević and Lech Wałęsa as well. Consistency is all I ask.--Barend 15:52, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

(Sigh) - and there was I thinking this encyclopaedia was supposed to at least make an effort to be user-friendly, rather than just massaging the egos of its contributors ("you mean you don't understand how the modern Turkmen latin alphabet works? Tsk Tsk...you must be an idiot, and perhaps a racist as well. After all, although the alphabet reform was conceived by a crazed megalomaniac, has been changed several times and still hasn't been fully implemented, although there are virtually no books in Turkmenistan which use it and most of the population can only read Cyrillic, clearly we must respect the wishes of the late-lamented "head of all Turkmen" and hasten to rename all Wikipedia pages relating to Turkmenistan in this practical and easily comprehensible form of latin orthography. With a language like Turkmen, well on its way to becoming an internationally recognised medium for diplomacy and cultural exchange, this shouldn't present any insuperable obstacles. OK, well, perhaps a few teething problems, like nobody having a clue what sort of pronunciation these spellings indicate, but within twenty years I'm sure all English-speakers will have mastered it. What's that? They've changed the alphabet again? Oh bugger!") I suggest you have a look here - a paper given at a conference in Oxford which I helped to organise a few years ago, which has some interesting things to say about Turkmen alphabet reform. The fact that the Govt. does not use the new alphabet when writing Turkmen names in English is precisely the point! It might suit your (to me, warped and incomprehensible purposes) to dismiss it as 'irrelevant', but I'm afraid it's not up to you to decide that. So Turkmen is the official language of Turkmenistan? Thanks for that illuminating insight. Actually I don't think we're going far enough here. I'd like to see every article on Turkmenistan in English Wikipedia translated into Turkmen forthwith in honour of this fact. This will prevent further misunderstandings and ensure that if by some miracle someone from the 1% of Turkmen who have internet access stumbles across this site they won't be offended by the inherently imperialist use of English. Anyway, I'm off. I have better things to do than argue the toss with crazed philological fetishists. Sikandarji 08:35, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Please remain civil. I have never called you an idiot or a racist. Please do not call those with different opinions from yours "crazed fetishists". Thank you.--Barend 09:32, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I present all my excuses if I have lost my self control. But I won't change my mind. Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedow has no English name, since he is not English. The concept of "English name" exists only for people or places from England or other English speaking countries and for a little number of places (for example country names: Germany is the English name of Deutschland; some city names: Moscow is the English name of Москва; kings' names: Charles XV is the English name of the Swedish king Karl XV and some very ancient historical figures: Christopher Columbus is the English name of Cristoforo Colombo). And that's all. Proper names from non English speaking countries are not English names. Richard Wagner is not the English name of a German musician. Bandar Seri Begawan is not the English name of the capital of Brunei. Krk is not the English name of a Croatian island. Miloslav Vlk is not the English name of a Czech Roman Catholic Cardinal. We use their German, Malaysian, Croatian and Czech names respectivly.

There are two particuliarities in this principle: firstly, when there are diacritics or modified letters on those names, we must respect them as far as our writing technics allow it. It's why we write Leoš Janáček and not Leos Janacek. Leoš Janáček is his Czech and only name, and Leos Janacek is not his "English name" since he has no English name at all. Every serious encyclopedia respect foreign diacritics. Most of the newspapers don't, for technical limitations, but the most serious reviews and magazines respect diacritics, for example the National Geographic Magazine always respect them. In Wikipedia, we have absolutely no technical limitation of this kind, and the use of automatic redirects allows the reader to find instantly his article even when he doesn't know its exact spelling.

Secondly, when the name is from a tongue that is not written with the Latin alphabet. Then the name is respected but translitterated using a well establish translitteration system. For example, a Chinese name is transcribed using pinyin. A Japanese name is transcribed using Hepburn system. And Russian is translitterated using Wikipedia:Romanization of Russian. But the name is foundamentally respected.

In the case of Turkmen names, Turkmen language is written in Latin alphabet. We then must respect the Turkmen spelling of the names of every Turkmen citizen. They don't have an "English name". The concept of "English name" for a Turkmen citizen is a nonsense. And when we find the spelling Saparmurat Niyazov for Saparmyrat Nyýazow, it's not an "English name" at all. It's simply his Russian name Сапармурат Ниязов tranlitterated with Wikipedia:Romanization of Russian (you can check it by yourself). This person has only a Turkmen name and a Russian name. And no "English name" at all.

About Turkmen websites, I must add they are written in Russian language, and not in Turkmen language. They are not made for Turkmen citizens who don't have an acces to internet. When they are translated in English, they are translated from the English version only. That's why the proper names are the Russian names tranlitterated and not the Turkmen names. And that doesn't make "English names" out of them. In the rare cases when a document is translated directly from Turkmen language, the Turkmen spelling is more respected. For example, the English edition of the Ruhnama is signed with the Turkmen spelling of the president's first name: Saparmyrat and not Saparmurad!

To finish, I go in holidays now for a long week. I won't be able to answer any answer. Švitrigaila 11:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Interesting to note here that Niyazov wrote his "Ruhnama" in Russian, rather than Turkmen (they reproduce sections of the manuscript as plates in the various editions, so there's no doubt about this).(My mistake - I do remember someone saying this at a seminar once. He did write it in Cyrillic though - that is if he wrote it himself at all). It doesn't matter whether "Niyazov" or "Berdymuhammedov" is based on the Russian version of a Turkmen name or not - these are the versions which have become familiar in English. They are also much easier to read and pronounce for English-speakers. The other systems of Latin orthography which have been cited have fixed forms which in many cases have been in use for centuries, are universally used in their home countries and are widely familiar to English-speakers. None of this is true of the Turkmen latin script. Most people in Turkmenistan can't even read it!Sikandarji 11:25, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Two things: a) It is downright idiotic to call for a TRANSLITERATION from a Latin script (and no I am not Turkmen). Also, most commonly used by x outlet hardly matters, note the article on Chemical Ali (by far most commonly used in most outlets) being at, errrm, Ali Hassan al-Majid. b) It does however matter (in my view) that official Turkmen sources spell it with a -v. So yeah, you're both wrong, for different reasons. Go on, hate me. :P Druworos (talk) 20:38, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Parents

Russian media claim that Berdimuhammedow is widely seen in Turkmenistan as Niyazov's illegitimate son. Could anyone check this? --Ghirla ^-трёп- 09:18, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

It's mentioned on the New Eurasia blog here: [19] towards the end of the article. K. Lástocska 16:40, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Also here in a Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty article, just says that B. is "reportedly a relative of Niyazov." [20] K. Lástocska 16:44, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is a BBC profile that mentions these rumors [21], but also speculates that "the unsubstantiated allegations were circulated to legitimise Berdymukhamedov's succession claims." This dispute might be worth integrating into the article. Mabuse 19:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Image?

Here's the first image of Gurbanguly that I've been able to find: http://www.registan.net/index.php/2007/02/12/turkmenistan-election/ What's the deal with copyright in these cases?

That would almost certainly be a copyrighted image that the registan site is using. We will probably have to wait until the U.S. government publishes its own photo of Berdimuhammedow before we get a truly free image.--Cam 15:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I found some photos on Flickr that are licensed under Creative Commons. --Nathanhamm 17:12, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Party affiliation

The infobox currently states that Berdimuhammedow is not affiliated to any party - surely he's part of the Democratic Party of Turkmenistan? Dancarney 09:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I came here to ask the same question, actually...I don't see any sources that state it explicitly, but considering the situation I would think it can almost be taken for granted. Everyking 11:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

removal

I removed this "Radio Free Europe described the elections as "neither free nor fair", and the International Crisis Group described it as "blatantly falsified"."

Comments on the fairness of the elections seem irrelevant in this biographical article. I'd also question whether the two sources actually represent a neutral point of view.83.100.158.13 10:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I wish you were joking, but you're not. That the International Crisis Group describes Berdimuhammedow's election "victory" as "blatantly falsified" is extremely relevant to a biography of a new President of any nation. Try and not "make for glorious benefit of Turkmenistan" censors, will ya? Check this out: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6201669.stm

What does

Try and not "make for glorious benefit of Turkmenistan" censors, will ya?

mean?

The link you provide is from before the elections - if I have read right - how is that relevant to the above - it does not confirm the above?83.100.158.13 11:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Not a good sign IMO that you don't get my allusion to Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan. (Now let me guess...you'll remind me that Kazakhstan isn't Turkmenistan?) It is also not encouraging that you think a BBC article about conditions in Turkmenistan in December 2006 is irrelevant to conditions in Turkmenistan less than two months later.

What I was saying was how is a report before the elections relevant to the fairness of the elections? - unless you think a thing is dammed before it has occured.

And I got that you immitate 'borat' but what did you mean by it?83.100.158.13 11:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I guess what I'm getting at is, if you read the entire BBC article, I think you'll feel less inclined to whitewash a biography of Turkmenistan's new President. Berdimuhammedow has vowed to introduce dramatic reforms, and hopefully will; but if not, people should at least know how it was (and is?) in Turkmenistan in lieu of improvement. As for 'Borat," I've seen the movie and it spoofs a governmental style which is possibly/probably even more pronounced than in nearby Kazakhstan. It is not fair or reasonable to expect an encyclopedic entry about a stereotypically authoritarian government be devoid of 'negative' points of view about it. I've not restored the information about the elections being considered "blatantly falsified," but I think you could restore it without violating the article's overall neutral point of view.

Why take such a negative attitude about this place?

Borat - the guy spoofs a 'male stereotype of central asians, and possibly russians as well' - I didn't see it as a comment on govermental style.83.100.158.13 13:35, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Rather than basing your opinions on a comedian I suggest you could read this as well. http://66.249.93.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.turkmenistan.ru/%3Fpage_id%3D12%26lang_id%3Dru%26elem_id%3D9081%26type%3Devent%26sort%3Ddate_desc&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dturkmenistan%26hl%3Den%26lr%3Dlang_ru%26sa%3DG%26as_qdr%3Dall.

Hope that helps.(sorry)213.249.237.49 15:06, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Who's basing their opinions on a comedian? Read the BBC article, jump-up. I hope it helps. 22:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

You were.. But you deleted that didn't you. see here? http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AGurbanguly_Berdimuhammedow&diff=108570288&oldid=10856914187.102.20.186 12:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

added neutrality tag

This article seems currently to be fairly negative towards the person, citing only references that give a negative point of view - for instance it criticises the health system of the country (as person was health minister), but also raises questions of parenthood as well - is this relevant or fair. I'm sure person knows who his father is - as it stands the statement about parentage is speculation - I'd suggest removing it until the true facts are known.83.100.158.13 10:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC) Also I'd suggest that a separate article would be the right place to mention details of political situation in Turkmenistan, not this article - which at present contains very little biographical information.83.100.158.13 10:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The statements you speak of are attributed to sources; they don't claim to be the truth, only what some people think or believe. This is considered neutral, at least on Wikipedia. Everyking 10:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Obviously quoting only foreign sources is not neutral - what about some statements from neighboring countries rather that something from the other side of the world - In isolation these comments are not neutral.83.100.158.13 11:10, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

In isolation, they're probably not neutral - although they may be based on reliable research conducted in the country. Thus, the remedy of integrating other sources into the article is a good one. In lieu of those sources, though (which of course may well not be neutral either), what we have is a claim and a source for it. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 11:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I hope you can sort this out for the benefit of any readers. Just to qualify my point take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Gurbanguly_Berdimuhammedow&oldid=108045959 I can tell you as an 'inpartial' observer that it just reads like a hatchet job/character assasination. I don't want to see ANY article looking as bad as that.83.100.158.13 11:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The point is, though, that the majority of readily-available sources (and when I say readily-available I'm restricting myself somewhat, since I don't speak a word of Turkmen or any other languages of nearby countries) share the opinion that the country is being run poorly and that the government is thus doing a bad job. I agree with you that it would be great to see sources on the other side saying that he did a good job of this and that, but I doubt I'll be able to find any by myself and we're not exactly inundated with Turkmen-speaking editors to help out in that regard. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 11:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll have a look - give it a day.. I'm not promising anything.83.100.158.13 11:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

ok I honestly can't find any more biographical information. Some details on the inauguration if anyone cares..

"Acting President Gurbanguly Berdymukhammedov, campaigning for February 11 presidential elections in Dashoguz, highlighted educational reform and a move to a 10-year program in secondary schools among his priorities, Interfax reported. He also called to freeze prices on necessities and to end a practice of inflating reports in the agricultural sector as part of a “radical reform” needed. The candidate also promised various construction projects for the region including a water plant, flour mills, grain elevators, and food processing factories, including for baby food. Berdymukhammedov also urged acceleration of regional highway project and promised a new maternity center."

from http://www.eurasianet.org/turkmenistan.project/index.php?page=/wnb/editor/wnb20070126&lang=eng

Details of election vote (just to confirm voting numbers) http://66.249.93.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.turkmenistan.ru/%3Fpage_id%3D3%26lang_id%3Dru%26elem_id%3D9316%26type%3Devent%26sort%3Ddate_desc&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dturkmenistan%26hl%3Den%26lr%3Dlang_ru%26sa%3DG%26as_qdr%3Dall

Slightly more details of career and election oath

http://66.249.93.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.turkmenistan.ru/%3Fpage_id%3D12%26lang_id%3Dru%26elem_id%3D9318%26type%3Devent%26sort%3Ddate_desc&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dturkmenistan%26hl%3Den%26lr%3Dlang_ru%26sa%3DG%26as_qdr%3Dall

Details of inauguration ceremony

http://66.249.93.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.turkmenistan.ru/%3Fpage_id%3D3%26lang_id%3Dru%26elem_id%3D9317%26type%3Devent%26sort%3Ddate_desc&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dturkmenistan%26hl%3Den%26lr%3Dlang_ru%26sa%3DG%26as_qdr%3Dall

Nothin really in the above that isn't already covered - just added the links just in case.83.100.158.13 14:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

removal of speculation

Also, according to rumors, he is Niyazov's illegitimate son (if this is the case, Niyazov would have fathered him at the age of 17).

Where in the article quoted does it say this - someone please point it out - true or not we are not hear to report speculation - first I'd like to see the part of the article which says this, before readding.83.100.158.13 11:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Quoting from the article cited: But surely the most sensational claim to have emerged on this individual to date is the allegation doing the rounds is that Berdymukhammedov is none other than Niyazov’s bastard son. That at least confirms the existence of the rumours. One suspects that confirming whether or not he is Niyazov's son would be quite a challenge. As was said above, reporting the existence of rumours is unobjectionable when their existence is cited. Of course, we can argue about whether a blog is the best place to be citing things from. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 11:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to ask that we do do that - and ask if the hottest pickings from the rumour mill are suitable for inclusion.83.100.158.13 11:21, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

When you ask to "do that", do you mean "argue about whether a blog is a good source" or "research whether he's Niyazov's son"? If the former, I'd say it depends on the nature of the blog - the jottings of a randomly selected teenager are likely to be less reliable than the considered opinion of a former ambassador to the country (for example). If the latter, I've always wanted to see Ashgabat, but I think the risks to my person in investigating the proclivities of the ruling elite would be too great :) BigHaz - Schreit mich an 11:25, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I meant use caution in what we report - specifically as you say avoiding 'the jottings of a randomly selected teenager' - that's what I meant. I don't doubt that who is this guys father is the hot topic on the streets of Ashgabat.83.100.158.13 11:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Couldn't agree with you more about the need for caution. I haven't looked into the bona fides of the contributors to the blog in question very closely, but according to their own front page, they don't seem to be randomly selected teenagers. Perhaps not former ambassadors either, but I'd be tempted to believe them if they said there were rumours about something. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 11:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe there are rumours - I don't know if it's good form to report them in someones biography - except specifically under a 'rumours' or 'trivia' section.83.100.158.13 11:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I had a quick look - I say it's a collection of teenage/twenty somethings blogs - quite respectable - but do these blog things represent a 'good source'? (that's not a rhetorical question - I don't know what the answer is)83.100.158.13 11:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm really not sure myself - Central Asian politics isn't my area - but what they do represent is a source. I doubt we're going to get a government source saying that there are such rumours, let alone confirming them. Furthermore, if the blogs are written by young people on the ground, it would imply that there are questions being asked about the man's parentage. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 22:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The BBC profile reports the rumors, as widely reported but unsubstantiated; and also reports speculation that the story was invented to make his succession more legitimate. the BBC report on the inauguration confirms that all the candidates were, as might be expected, members of the DPT; and that Niyazov's son Miyat was prevented from running by other changes to the constitution. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:43, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for helping removing some of the 'bad' stuff that was in the article - I'd like to point out that this article is a biography - I'm sure that there is a separate article - such as 'politics of turkmenistan' or 'history of turmenistan' where speculation about political manouverings might be more welcome. See Talk:Gurbanguly_Berdimuhammedow#Biography.213.249.237.49 14:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

neutrality tag removed

Someone removed the tag - I won't readd it in the articles present state. Though I still think that the article is remarkably negative for a neutral article in it's current state http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Gurbanguly_Berdimuhammedow&oldid=108051655 for instance is this necessary

Opposition officials have described Berdimuhammedow as a weak-willed man who wields little influence, which may have contributed to his long-standing career as deputy prime minister

- specifically the part underlined - by any standard deputy prime minister isn't bad - so why suggest that being deputy prime minister is somehow indicative of being 'weak willed'? Someone else should look at this83.100.158.13 11:38, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I assume it's implying that an assertive personality couldn't have survived so long because of the extent of the concentration of power in Niyazov's own hands. An assertive personality would have been deemed a nuisance or a threat before long. Everyking 08:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The key may also lie in the fact that it's the opposition doing the describing. In any country, the opposition tends to take a rather dim view of the government (a view which is of course reciprocated by the government) at least in rhetorical terms. In the case of a country like Turkmenistan, the political situation could mean that this is the only description of the man by the opposition that's repeatable in polite company. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 10:24, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

These concerns of yours were addressed earlier today. To repeat:

The statements you speak of are attributed to sources; they don't claim to be the truth, only what some people think or believe. This is considered neutral, at least on Wikipedia. Everyking 10:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Obviously quoting only foreign sources is not neutral - what about some statements from neighboring countries rather that something from the other side of the world - In isolation these comments are not neutral.83.100.158.13 11:10, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

In isolation, they're probably not neutral - although they may be based on reliable research conducted in the country. Thus, the remedy of integrating other sources into the article is a good one. In lieu of those sources, though (which of course may well not be neutral either), what we have is a claim and a source for it. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 11:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for removing any potential 'slander'. I've left a link to guidelines below.213.249.237.49 14:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

See Talk:Gurbanguly_Berdimuhammedow#Biography213.249.237.49 14:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation

How do you pronounce his name? With a name like his, shouldn't there be a pronunciation guide in the article? 69.119.98.236 16:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Biography

Thanks to those above who responded to my concerns about the article - it is a lot better than it was about 2 days ago.

If you think about it you will notice that this is not an article on politics even though the article is about a political figure. This article is not the place to make arguments about your dislike (or like) of something the person is associated with.

I'd recommend if there is any confusion to read Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons - it's quite clear. Thank you.213.249.237.49 14:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Two points emerge from this:

• The subject of the article is primarily a political figure. Thus, political commentary (sourced, of course) has a place in this article. It shouldn't take up the entire page, by any means, but it has a place nonetheless.
• To the best of my knowledge, nobody is making judgements based on personal opinions. In accordance with WP:BLP, all assertions are being backed up with sources. Indeed, if anything it is the removal of text which is being done based on personal opinion. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 21:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Removal of non-biographical info

I removed this -

Turkmenistan's health system is considered one of the worst in the [[former Soviet Union]];<ref name=Bagila>Bagila Bukharbayeva, [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/25/ap/world/mainD8M815101.shtml "Turkmenistan's New Leader Little-Known"], Associated Press (CBS News), December 25, 2006.</ref> according to [[Amnesty International]], "health care has become financially inaccessible to most people."<ref name=Bagila/><ref>[http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR610012005?open&of=ENG-348 "Turkmenistan: President announces large-scale closure of hospitals"], Amnesty International, March 24, 2005.</ref> 213.249.237.49 14:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

An assessment of healthcare in Turkmenistan is irrelevant to a biography of Turkmenistan's Health Minister? 70.240.148.79 21:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

As the person who added that, I don't see how in the world it could be considered irrelevant. He was in charge of the health system for nine years, and these assessments apply to that period. Would it be better to just say nothing about what was going on with the health system while he was in charge? I think it is crucial to provide these assessments to give the reader an understanding of what kind of record he has. Everyking 08:51, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Something should be said about his role in the health system and where it currently stands. That said, what was written sounds closer to "Oh, and did you know that Turkmenistan's health system sucks?", rather than "Berdimuhammedow is blamed for the shortcomings of the Turkmenistani health system". The article currently mentions that he was responsible for implementing the order to close all the hospitals outside Ashgabat, so would it be reasonable to add something like "As a result of this and other policies, the Turkmen health system under Berdimuhammedow was regarded as one of the worst in the former USSR, with healthcare being 'financially unaccessible to most people'"? It needs work, but I feel that links him to the information a bit better. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 09:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough - but had you considered if health care was mostly free - making your 'financially unaccessible to most people' total rubbish. We need a reference that shows the hostpitals have been closed by the way - not just that they are under consideration of being closed.87.102.20.186 12:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

You're right that it wasn't integrated very well; it should have been tied more directly to Berdimuhammedow. Everyking 15:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Removal

I removed this

There is a widely reported, but unsubstantiated, rumor that he is the illegitimate son of President Niyazov. There is also speculation that this rumor is being deliberately spread to enhance the legitimacy of Berdimuhammedow's succession: Myrat Niyazov, his legitimate son, was prevented from running by other constitutional changes made for the election.<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6346185.stm BBC profile]</ref>

See Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons - it's clear - e.g. - "He considers "no" information to be better than "speculative" information and reemphasizes the need for sensitivity.."

213.249.237.49 14:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

213.249.237.49 14:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

However, see Wales' earlier words on the exact same page, where the implication is made that the "speculative" information being talked about is "random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information". The source used in this article repeats the claim that there are such rumours, so it isn't simply speculation on the part of an editor - it's the inclusion of a report saying that there is such speculation. I'm not sure that makes it better, but it's certainly a distinction which is at risk of being bulldozed here. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 21:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The only thing being asserted here is the existence of the rumors, which is well sourced; and of some interest. Since analysts suggest they are being spread by Berdimuhammedow's supporters, it's not clear they are even negative. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Now that I hadn't picked up on. Certainly adds a new wrinkle to the issue. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 00:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd tend to suggest that the origin of these rumous is the report in kommersant by Vladimir Solovyov and Mikhail Zygar - are there any earlier sources of this?87.102.20.186 11:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

small removal

I removed " ..which may have contributed to his long-standing career as deputy prime minister" from "Opposition officials have described Berdimuhammedow as a weak-willed man who wields little influence, which may have contributed to his long-standing career as deputy prime minister" - I understand that comments of opposition officials are valid - but I don't think this is the place to start drawing conclusions

The actual quote is

According to opposition leaders, however, Berdymuhammedov, who formerly served as Saparmurat Niyazov's personal physician, is a weak-willed man who wields little influence. It was precisely this lack of character that allowed him to retain the post of deputy prime minister longer than anyone else, a fact that has also even birthed rumors that he is Turkmenbashi's illegitimate son.

The opposition figures are unamed. The writers (who I assumed who have formulated the idea that his 'weak willedness' may have contributed to his longlevity as deputy leader) are Vladimir Solovyov and Mikhail Zygar.

The illegitimacy claims I presume originate from this source as well?213.249.237.49 15:02, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, I don't understand the rationale for this removal. The fact that the opposition leaders are unnamed (a fact which, in itself, is hardly surprising) doesn't invalidate the fact that they've made the claim in question. Admittedly, the quotation doesn't make it clear where the opposition figures' comments end and the speculation by the journalists begin, but at the very least one can ascribe the "weak-willed man who wields little influence" comments to them. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 21:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

OK fair enough. I've added a mention of the newspaper and changed the text to match the reference87.102.20.186 11:55, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

removal - about the elections

"and the International Crisis Group described it as "blatantly falsified"."

removed by me - as you know that is not true. 213.249.237.49 19:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

"blatantly falsified election." is what the source says. That is all. I can't "know that is not true" because, in fact, the source quotes it exactly that way. Rmhermen 19:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to mention Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons

We must get the article right.[1] Be very firm about high quality references, particularly about details of personal lives. Unsourced or poorly sourced controversial (negative, positive, or just highly questionable) material about living persons should be removed immediately...

Is this a high quality reference? I've already made my opinion clear to you that I don't think so. Looking at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources I'd suggest that the source will show bias - it's up to you what you think.

Also note that there is Turkmen presidential election, 2007 which contains that infomation, note that this is a biographical article not an article on the elections

If you think the sources are reliable then you can associate with them. Sorry to be so short with you.87.102.8.169 19:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Might I suggest a compromise? We include the comments by the ICG, who appear to be a reliable-ish source, but counterbalance them with comments from a source arguing that the elections were fair. As far as the logic of including information about an election which the subject of an article won (or took part in, for that matter), I'd point out two things. Firstly, it is relatively standard practice for the biography articles of any head of state to include a few words at least on the elections which put them there (where applicable - replace "election" with "coup" or whatever else is required). Thus, the comments that the election was good or bad have a place in this article. Secondly, unlike heads of state of countries which are more prominent in world affairs (or heads of state who've simply been in power longer), this gentleman isn't known - or isn't known yet - for certain policy initiatives or anything like that. What he is known for is winning this election. Thus, a few words regarding what some might see as a dubious result should be included. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 21:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

OK fair enough - I probably removed too much in the context of seeing a overly negative article.87.102.20.186 12:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Minor changes

I made a change to the comments about being week willed so that the text matches what was actually reported - that is 'opposition leaders' and not 'opposition officals'. Also note that the source is the newspaper kommersant - I have included that as well.87.102.20.186 11:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Minor things

1. a. "The Health Ministry was responsible for carrying out Niyazov's notorious order to close all hospitals outside of the capital city, Ashgabat, in 2005." - the reference cited says that closing the hospitals was being considered - why isn't there a reference that shows the closures have been carried out. b. What about the new hospitals that have been built - or any good that he may seem responsible for. Is that suitable for the article(mild sarcasm).87.102.20.186 12:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

2. The illegitimacy rumour seems to stem from the Kommersant article - shouldn't that be cited - unless there are earlier reports.

3. "There is also speculation that this rumor is being deliberately spread to enhance the legitimacy of Berdimuhammedow's succession" - apart from this talk page - where? I have to remove this for now. I can't see any source for this except this talk page.87.102.20.186 12:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

by the way I'm using http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Gurbanguly_Berdimuhammedow&oldid=108394026 this edit (by an admin if that makes any difference) as a good basis for the article - notwithstanding new info. Does anyone have any opinions on this version.87.102.20.186 12:28, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

In terms of the hospital closures, it would certainly follow logically that they took place. Firstly, the order was made in 2005, so by now (early 2007), all bar the most inefficient of governments would have been able to do what was decided in 2005. Additionally, my understanding of Turkmenistan is that what the President says goes - so ordering hospitals outside the capital to be closed is as good as closing them himself (there's a Gilbert & Sullivan reference in there for the curious). It would be nice to find a reference that says "the hospitals have now been closed", but as it currently stands we have a very strong implication thereof.

Where any new hospitals (or any other good) goes, you're welcome to add it in. All we need are references saying that he built a hospital here or decreased the waiting list for that procedure. It would be eminently suitable for this article if it were sourced. As it currently stands, though, we can only report what's cited - Turkmen healthcare may be free, but we don't have a source saying so (yet).

As far as point two goes, Kommersant is cited as reporting these rumours. If there are earlier reports, I'm sure they'll be cited as well. I don't necessarily subscribe to the view that the article itself needs to say "Kommersant reported that blablabla" (I think "There are rumours that blablabla" with a citation down the bottom pointing to Kommersant is good enough), but I really don't see what the problem is here.

There's a source cited on this page which says that there is a belief that these rumours about his parentage are being spread to enhance his legitimacy. I'll add it to the article, which should get around that particular objection. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 22:45, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure about the last thing - I mean you really could end up dredging every last byte of the web to get more information. It's your choice, but I don't see the point of reporting every single thing that you can find a reference for. I mean you're saying reporting the specualtion that he is illegitimate and the former presidents son is ok because you have a reference that says it might enhance his legitimacy? - speculation about speculation doesn't make 'a better reference' but what harm can it do.87.102.13.148 12:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Re: Hospital closures old hospitals close - new ones open it's the same all over the world see here http://www.turkmenistan.ru/?page_id=5&lang_id=en&elem_id=9247&type=event&highlight_words=hospital&sort=date_desc87.102.9.240 20:25, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

In terms of the rumours about his parentage, the point that I'm making is this: There are rumours circulating that his father was none other than Niyazov himself - there's no disagreement about the fact that the rumours are around. There is also speculation that the rumours are being circulated not as a means to discredit him (as might be the case in other countries), but rather to enhance his standing (since the son of Turkmenbashy would be an important figure, one would assume). Both the presence of the rumours and the presence of the speculation are cited and appear germane to the article, so I don't see what "dredging every last byte of the web" has to do with it. Someone else has kindly dredged these specific bytes, and I've merely made sure they were in the article.

Where the hospital closures are concerned, the reference doesn't quite say what you claim it does. The article (and the attendant source) explain that "all hospitals outside of the capital city" were ordered to be closed in 2005. The hospital in the source is in the south of Ashgabat, which is the capital. Thus, while it's a new hospital opening, it's opening precisely where the article already says it will be. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 21:21, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

It's a fair point you have about the rumours - and it is interesting - but I'd just like you to consider erring on caution when it comes to 'reporting' rumours of rumours. At some point we might have rumours of rumours of rumours!

As for the hospitals - I'm not sure if the article is linked but it says somewhere that hospitals outside the capital and major population centres will be closed. Now given that turkmenistan's population is mostly centred on a few cities towns this seems quite normal. Something to think about anyway.83.100.132.31 21:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Where rumours are concerned, I understand the risks of reporting them willy-nilly, but in this particular case I believe the correct procedure to have been followed. From memory, there's a relatively reliable blog reporting them, Kommersant (which I take to be a reliable newspaper, although I don't know for sure) reporting them and also the BBC reporting them. Thus, we can be reasonably certain that these rumours exist. Obviously if our only source was someone who'd just got back from Ashgabat we'd have a problem - which is precisely what WP:BLP was created to stop - but this particular biography doesn't seem to fall into the trap of people thinking that they'd heard something somewhere.

As for the hospitals, I (like you) feel as though I've seen a source saying precisely that as well. The one in the article just says "outside the capital", though. That said, just as any negative information needs to be sourced, so too does any positive information. I'd be all for including the Turkmen government's rationale for closing the hospitals (wherever they were closed) if we can find a source, but currently one doesn't appear to have been forthcoming. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 22:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll look for it, in the meantime I noticed that the russian page says that the rumours about being Turkmenbashi's son actually have been going around for a long time. Didn't see a reference though unfortunately.

Ah... "From now on each regional center will have only a diagnostic center, which can redirect people for treatment in Ashgabat. The rest of the clinics and hospitals in the country will be shut down." [22] That's dated 11th Feb 2005 (im sure not 2nd Nov 2005) -

But then here there is on (21st July 2005) 21.07.05 "Regional hospital in Turkmenabat city gets two new artificial kidney apparatuses ... According to the ministry, regional hospitals in the rest regional centers of Turkmenistan will be also equipped with new apparatuses in the near future."[23] coming after the announcement? (from Türkmenabat this place has pop. ~ 203,000)

((And I'm still sure I saw another (more detailed) report that confirmed that only 'major cities' would have hospitals - as it stands I have conflicting info here. Best leave the article as it is.))83.100.132.31 22:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

My feeling is there has been a subtle error in reporting here (copied to many other sites in the way many newspapers source their info. from reuters etc and end up all saying the same thing.)

It's clear that restructuring and closures were planned - but I'm not convinced that the article quite has it right at the moment. Still until a solid fact turns up it will just have to do.83.100.132.31 22:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The BBC profile says hospitals outside the capital city and major regional towns were to be closed - so I've added that clarification to the text.87.102.36.28 14:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

removal

Joke or not?

"Berdimuhammedow is also, reportedly, a major fan of the hit series, "Friends"."87.102.11.134 17:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Quite possible, but all I can find for "Berdimuhammedow friends" is a MySpace account, quite likely fake. -- Zanimum 18:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Info

from http://www.turkmenistan.ru/?page_id=3&lang_id=en&elem_id=9336&type=event&sort=date_desc

summary:The new president re-introduces 10 year education.

I'll leave it up to the editors to decide whether or not it is suitable for inclusion.87.102.11.134 19:59, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Gerwhatchamacallit Berdi-who?

Is it common for Turkmenis to have overly long names such as Gur-banguly Berdi-muhammed-ow? 204.52.215.107 19:42, 17 February 2007 (UTC) (yes, the hyphens are mine and they are for the purpose of splitting up the name into more handle-able parts.)

Not particularily87.102.9.240 20:33, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

40+

I'd like to see a reference for "Turkmen citizens from forty to seventy may run (for president)" anyone got one?87.102.9.240 19:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

It's ok I found one.87.102.9.240 19:53, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

quote

I added a quote from an interview to the background - there is much more there but I imagine only the most interested people will want to read it.87.102.9.240 20:21, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I've added three quotes - to give a little body to the article. If you read the article it will be clear that he is not an atheist - unfortunately I can't find anything that says he is a muslim. This is fairly certain but not verifiable as yet so I won't add it.83.100.132.31 21:52, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

subsection - "religious feeling"

I felt the quote in the subsection "religious feeling" was relevant in the absense of other info about religious background etc..

But I don't like the subsection title... I feel this could be incorporated into the text in a better way - I think it looks very amateurish - could someone think of a better sub heading or otherwise improve it please.83.100.132.31 23:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Somebody did, thanks87.102.4.2 10:23, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

nickname?

does this dude has a nickname because his name is crazy long 71.62.10.130 22:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

He might do - particularly if he was Russianised a bit during the Soviet era he might've picked up one of the Russian-style name-shortenings from that part of the world. That said, I'm not sure it's relevant if he does - it's not as if we'd be able to rename the article to his nickname, for example :) BigHaz - Schreit mich an 03:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

While we wouldn't be able to rename the article, it might be proper enough to refer to it in sentences, like "Joe then ate cake", instead of "Gurbanguly then ate cake". -- Zanimum 18:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I doubt it. We can (and do) refer to him by his surname only, which is pretty much standard practice throughout the world. If someone explains that Turkmens tend to be known by their first name, we can switch that round. As an analogy, I wouldn't want to see an article on the current US President talking about "Dubya's election victory". 21:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Because of the "Dubya" or because of the "victory"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.254.246.237 (talk) 14:24, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Page move

There's been some discussion above on the correct title. Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedow or Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedov.

I'm suggesting that the page be moved/name changed to Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedov as this is the correct english transliteration, and is also in common use. Please comment below...87.102.9.154 18:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm in favour of the move, as it's in line with his predecessor ("Saparmurat Niyazov" and not "Saparmyrat Nyyazow" or anything like that). It's not consistent, though, since Ataeyw/Atayev who's linked in the article should be looked at as well). BigHaz - Schreit mich an 21:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Against the move. I'm not sure if it's very helpful to start this discussion a second time on the same discussion page. But such glaring mistake have to be commented: We are not talking about "transliteration" here. The Turkmen language uses the latin alphabet, so what you are suggesting is changing the name, not transliterating it. Also, the name Berdimuhammedov is not in common use. A google check gives 545 hits for "Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedov", 933 hits for "Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedow" and 43900 hits for "Gurbanguly Berdymukhammedov". So if you want to go by what is common usage, rather than what is correct, than "Berdymukhammedov", which is a transliteration (in the right sense of the word) of the Russian name, would be the choice to make.--Barend 22:05, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

We should not use the Turkmen spelling; that is discussed at length above, and the links here are enough to show that no source in English (except possibly the official Turkmenistan magazine, which doesn't use his last name) employs it.

There are many systems of transliterating Cyrillic, producing the results in footnote 1 of the article, and the other sources. We should follow a consensus usage if there is one; if not, There is a fall-back position at WP:RUS.

Looking at these, I see only one significant disagreement about Berdymuhammedov: is the last -m- single or double. There seems limited support for Berdi- and none for -ow. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:22, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

You say "We should not use the Turkmen spelling; that is discussed at length above," - excuse me??? Yes, it has been discussed, but you can not seriously mean that a consensus has been reached? There has not been a ballot, and there has been no consensus reached. You can not out of the blue say "we're finished discussing that, and we'll do it my way"!--Barend 22:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

See also Talk:Saparmurat_Niyazov#Renaming_the_article; that is consensus to abide by the policy of naming articles for the common usage in English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Support the move, and my reasons are given above. "Muhammed" (or Muhammad) is almost always spelled with three "m"s, and there is no reason to use the russified "mukhammed" because it suggests a misleading pronunciation ("kh" is a transliteration of the cyrillic "х", and its use simply reflects the fact that cyrillic has no "h"). Gurbanguly Berdymuhammedov gets about 15,000 hits on google, which seems O.K. Sikandarji 22:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

You invent all times new stupidities proving only you don't know anything about the subject. This new one is "the fact that cyrillic has no "h". What a non sense! Russian language has no "h", but it's false to pretend "cyrillic" has none. Cyrillic is only an alphabet with different assigned sounds for the diferent languages that use it. For exemple, a Montenegrin prime minister named Миодраг Влаховић will be translitterated in latin by Miodrag Vlahović. The letter "х" correspond to the "h" sounds in some languages. It's the case of course for Tukmen language, as you can se first in Turkmen_language#Consonants for the pronounciation and in Turkmen alphabet for the spelling. But you mix "Cyrillic" with "Russian language" with no caution. I guess for you Russian language is all and other languages are nothing. After that you argue that "Gurbanguly Berdymuhammedov gets about 15,000 hits on google". Which once again wanders off the point. Fuji Yama gets about 2080000 hits on Google, while "Fuji San" gets about 1660000. And the article Mount Fuji dares to teach us it's name is "Fiji san"! Hara kiri gets 1620000 hits while Seppuku gets 612000. And the article on Wikipedia is Seppuku. Why? Because Seppuku is more correct than Hara kiri. And an encyclopedia is made to give correct informations, not the greatest number of Google hits. An encyclopedia is here for facts, not for receveid ideas. I don't blame the pedant who wrote here that Seppuku is more correct than Hara kiri. Only stupid people call "pedants" those who teach them something. In the case of Berdimuhammedow, his only name is Berdimuhammedow. You can't invent another one at your convenience just because you have only ideas about the right way to tranlitterate Russian names. One last thing about the insults: First you write this on 18 February, and then you write "There's no need for insults" on 21 February. I will answer all your insults with mine. Švitrigaila 23:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Nobody's insulting anyone that I can see, and that's the way it should remain. This is obviously a topic in which some people are rather heavily emotionally invested, and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that. When it crosses the line, however, is in any threats to start insulting each other. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 03:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I say, steady on Švitrigaila! All right, so I should have made it clearer that I was talking about Russian, but otherwise I can't understand what you're getting so upset about. I mentioned the google count merely to show that "Berdymuhammedov" seems to be more commonly used than "Berdimuhammedov", whilst making it clear that I didn't support the use of "Berdymukhammedov", the most common form, because it was an inaccurate Russification. Your purism is admirable (if a little hysterical at times), but I'm afraid Wikipedia does have a policy of using the most common names of people and things, which is why things like google hits can be relevant, although there's always room for compromise. Finally, I do not think it is unreasonable or insulting to call someone a "pedant" who is so hung-up on what constitutes correct Turkmen latin orthography that he insists on a page-title which will be unpronounceable to the average English speaker. I do not expect to be described as a "racist or colonialist" (as you did above) for pointing this out. There's no need to get so worked up. Sikandarji 09:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why we even discuss this. Turkmen uses the Latin alphabet, so the logical way to go is to use the Turkmen spelling, period. Just because a majority of people commit grammatical mistakes, we don't adopt them as the new standard right away, do we? I think correctness overrules commonness. —Nightstallion (?) 11:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Your argument would make sense if this article were in Turkmen, but it isn't, it's in English, and its title should follow easily comprehensible English conventions when it comes to spelling and pronunciation. That does not include representing a "v" sound with a "w". Sikandarji 11:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh? Then we should certainly move Kiribati back to Gilberts, because that's what it's pronounced like. Oh, and Mozart should, of course, be Motsart. —Nightstallion (?) 11:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

You're right, we should move "Kiribati" back to "Gilberts" or "The Gilbert Islands", because the latter is the name of the Islands in English, just as "Germany" is the English name for "Deutschland" and "Austria" for "Österreich". (Christ, how many times am I going to have to repeat this)? The fact that many articles have been renamed in contravention of Wikipedia's naming policy and in defiance of common-sense is not an argument for doing the same with this one. The other examples cited ("Wagner", "Mozart") are irrelevant, as these are household names to English-speakers anyway. I would venture to suggest that Mr Berdimuhammedov is not.Sikandarji 08:41, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

The name is pronounced 'ov' or 'off' - that's correct isn't it. I understand the arguments for using 'ow' if that is the way it is spelt in the turkmen alphabet. The comparable argument would be to use 'vagner' instead of 'wagner' because the 'w' isn't pronounced 'w(ood)' - In general I'm not bothered - as long as it's clear in the text what and why, and of course provided we have sufficient redirects (we do).87.102.9.28 15:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia should not make up spellings. The name of the article should be a common English spelling of the man's name. If no common English spelling exists, use the Turkmen spelling, however distasteful that me be to some. That's my opinion. --Cam 15:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I just did a check on the sources I looked at on December 31 (see above). All five still use the same spellings that they did then (BBC uses the 'Kurbanguly' variant now). So there's still a bit of variation out there. --Cam 15:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, and since there is a lot of variation, the right way to go in my opinion is obviously to use the most correct, i.e. Turkmen spelling. —Nightstallion (?) 11:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

This "debate" really is the last word in wiki-insanity. Do any of you stout defenders of the cause of Turkmen Latin orthography have any idea how little it is used in Turkmenistan? The alphabet reform is still unfinished, and it has gone through so many stages that there have never even been any textbooks in the new script. That, combined with Niyazov's screwing over of the education system in Turkmenistan, means that virtually nobody has learnt it. It's nothing more than a orthographical curiosity, and a peculiarly ill-thought out one at that. And yet you want to adopt it as some kind of gold standard of "correct" Turkmen spelling? You wait and see. They'll change it again in a month or two. And the miserable population of Turkmenistan will still be using cyrillic. Sikandarji 08:54, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Frankly -- I have to say that if they change it again in two months, I'd support moving articles to the new spelling immediately. (Yes, I'm a prescriptivist, surprisingly.) —Nightstallion (?) 11:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

• I think that Gurbanguly Berdymuhammedov whihc "gets about 15,000 hits on google, which seems O.K." should be a good compromise. --Bejnar 20:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

re page move

It seems unlikely that we will get any consensus for a page move, and perhaps more likely that the current title is 'best'. However we have no guide to pronunciation of the name in english. Could some kind soul good at this type of thing insert a 'phonetics for dummies' way to pronounce the name - maybe in the first paragraph. Thanks>87.102.67.190 16:32, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I found one pronunciation at the Voice of America. According to the VOA pronunciation guide, the pronunciation of Kurbanguli Berdymukhamedov to be used by VOA English-language broadcasters is koor-bahn-goo-LEE b-air-day-moo kah-MEH-dawf. My IPA rendering of that would be [kurbɑnguˈli bɛrdeɪmukɑˈmɛdɔf]. --Cam 22:22, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain the "h" is a German "hard ch", not just a [k]. —Nightstallion (?) 13:12, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I am amazed you could spend so much time on the variations of a name which did not return 10 hits the day Niyazov died, Russian and English combined. Good luck resolving this epic struggle.cs 19:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Another name change

Ha-ha, get ready for yet another name change war.

If you read Russian, check this out: Президент России изменил отчеству. Seems like Berdymuhammedow is going to follow the example of Emomalii Rahmon and cut the Russian ending -ow from his last name.

I'm not proposing a move yet, but it may come soon. --Amir E. Aharoni 08:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh no... :o( Švitrigaila 09:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The translated taitle of the article is "The President of Russia changed middle names"... I'm afraid it's a joke from an opposition newspaper. Švitrigaila 09:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

From Kommersant: "After Turkmen president’s hajj, Ashkhabad began insisting that he should from now on be called by his name changed according to Islamic canons, -- Gurbanguly Berdymukhammed."--Barend 10:23, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

All right. But what do the Islamic canons say about this ? Švitrigaila 11:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Religion

Is there a source for the recent edit that changed his religion from "Muslim" to "Atheist"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by FiggyBee (talk • contribs) 23:38, 14 February 2007 (UTC). (doh, beaten by the bot...)

Editors keep changing his religion, but no one provides a source, a citation. I have label religion as unsourced for the time being. --Bejnar 16:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

• This person on an interview of this website [24] made many references to a god. So I made his religion deism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mrld (talk • contribs) 20:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

Many news outlets have reported on Berdimuhammedow's performance of the hajj to Mecca. Surely, that makes him a moslem.--Barend 08:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

• Provide a source in accordance with Wikipedia:Reliable sources, and we can reinstate his religion. --Bejnar 20:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

changes to format - request for more info?

I've added a section for press reports and rumours about him.

The section 'As president' would benefit with reports of what he has actually done since being elected - if anyone has such infomation. http://www.turkmenistan.ru gives a list of various things he has done but most of it seems non notable to outsiders - standard presidential duties - opening things, signing trade agreements etc.

Also what happened to all mention of the apparent increases in 'freedom' since he became president?

name

Spelling = http://www.turkmenistan.ru/?page_id=3&lang_id=en&elem_id=10386&type=event&sort=date_desc

Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedov (instead of Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedov) (in russian)

If you ever agree on a spelling, in the article the name ends with a "w" 12 times and with a "v" 7 times, so the article should at least agree with itself. Art LaPella (talk) 23:55, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Fixed, thank you. Art LaPella (talk) 21:58, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

religiousness

I've made a minor edit to correct that section. Please be careful when editing not to make associations between unconnected facts.87.102.86.73 (talk) 14:28, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Err, there is a line in this section talking about the 'bro code' but it isn't viewable in the edit section to delete... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.218.122.159 (talk) 02:07, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

rumors

I heard before I left in the new counstitution monument or somewhere there maybe some gold statues being made of him. It wouldn't be surprising when I was there in august although mor etoned down the Turkmebashi's PC his one is quite large too and by the way I would like to know since they moved the ministry of culture shop where I can get some of the turkmenbashi sourvenirs I got watches and some books but I would like the vodka cognac pins mini gold busts and all other stuff I can get from his PC since they are getting rid of a lot of it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.95.46.162 (talk) 14:31, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

No discussion about his failures running Turkmenistan at all...?

I just came across his wikipedia page due to the wikileaks cables and I am quite surprised why this chap didn't win the Nobel Peace Prize yet -

On influencing factors to his character: "My parents always managed to maintain the hospitable atmosphere in the family." etc. etc.

Sorry, but I think this is positive propaganda here - no controversial issues at all, this is a bit weak if I might say so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.101.144.80 (talk) 22:21, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

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