Talk:Gyroball

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Fastball grip

According to the Yahoo article I cited, the pitch usesijhiuggy a variation of the fastball grip, and in many of the videos of the Matsuzaka throwing his supposed gyroball he is using a much different grip. --Xenod 03:04, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Matsuzaka reckons his so-called gyroball is just a cut fastball or a slider, but Himeno 's opinion is different.Lesoleiletlalune 23:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gryoball and shuuto

There seems to be major confusion in this article between the gyroball and the "shuuto" which actually have opposite breaks. The first half describes the gyroball correctly, and then the second half is talking about the shuuto. - Nick Kapur

Okay, I have email confirmation from Will Carroll himself that he erred when calling it a shuuto, so I am going to go ahead and split this into two separate articles. - Nick Kapur

Office fun

For what it's worth, I actually noticed a splitter-like sharp downward break when throwing a soft minature (slightly bigger than a baseball) football around the office a few years ago, and could consistently reproduce it when throwing tight spirals with good velocity. Guess I was throwing gyros :) Thedangerouskitchen 06:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

similarity to leg spin in cricket

The delivery method out of the hand appears to be wrist spin, and the movement in the air sounds like the drift you get before a leg break hits the pitch. If thats true then theoretically you should be able to get the opposite air movement with finger spin. Sounds like baseball pitching coaches might want to seek out their cricket counterparts. --60.229.228.221 01:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If it's similar in movement (if not delivery) to any spin in cricket, it's offspin. The gyro moves down and away from a same-sided hitter, legspinners drift in and drop before bouncing, gripping and turning. But even then, the curveball is more similar to the offspinner, the delivery is virtually identical and the movement similar. If you're looking at the Matsuzaka video, that pitch is more a shuuto than anything else.

Baseball and cricket have long exchanged ideas, the forkball Glenn McGrath bowls is from baseball, and I myself bowl a pretty effective knuckleball. Likewise, the two-seam fastball as thrown by many pitchers is very similar in principle to the inswinger, and the cricketer's offcutter is somewhere between the relatively recent slider (1920s, though not widely adopted until a few decades later, I believe) and cut fastball (currently in vogue but possibly thrown earlier under other names like the "sailing fastball"). Thedangerouskitchen 12:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

left hand pitcher

The article describes what happens when a right-handed pitcher throws it. Am I correct in assuming when thrown by a left-handed pitcher the movement of the ball is completely opposite (in terms of left/right)? -67.172.181.206 18:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, precisely.Lesoleiletlalune 23:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Velocity of the Gyroball

The article claims that the the gyroball is thrown with the arm speed of a fastball but goes much slower (like a changeup). This is questionable on two counts. 1.) There is no confirmation that anyone has ever truly thrown a gyroball. 2.) Most articles about the gyroball seem to say that there is potential for the gyroball to be thrown at fastball speeds which is the main reason people believe it to be a "miracle" pitch. One such article can be found here (http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1792187).

Cut Fastball?

Former New York Yankees pitcher Al Leiter was interviewed regarding the Gyroball, and said:

"They can call it what they want, but it's a cut fastball."

Mstyne 11:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The late, sudden, and downward nature of the break (purportedly, anyway) would differentiate the gyroball from the cutter. The movement on a cutter is continuous and (again, purportedly) less exaggerated. Al's, what, 68? He probably scoffed at the creation of the splitter, too. -JC

Screwball?

This sounds like a screwball to me? --Awiseman 20:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The gyroball supposedly has a more exaggerated break laterally than the screwball. -JC
- It also breaks in the opposite direction to the screwball. The shuuto is more like a screwball than a gyro. Thedangerouskitchen 06:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

NOT a real pitch

While the story behind the gyroball is certainly cool to read about - it being 'developed' by two Japanese scientists - it simply isn't a real pitch. Matsuzaka doesn't throw it; no one does. He throws a couple different breaking balls, for sure, and a slider, change and a fastball, but no gyro. It's the stuff of urban legend. Vter4life 02:54, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Note that Gordon Edes (the author of the linked article) is an opinion writer; the article shouldn't be cited as definitive proof either way. That said, it does seem appropriate to note in the article that the gyroball, while undoubtedly invented by the Japanese scientists and the subject of their book, may never (yet?) have been successfully thrown at the professional level.

Along the same lines, "admissions" about the gyroball from a currently-playing professional pitchers are likely to be suspect; pitchers have competitive reasons to both claim that they throw an unusual pitch which they do not, as well as to deny throwing pitches that they do. The same goes for players, managers, agents, etc. There are also translation and cultural differences that may come into play.

Regardless, I think a brief note about the controversy is appropriate, and by the end of the 2007 season there should be hard objective proof one way or another about Matsuzaka's pitch (which may still may not settle the "is the gyroball professionally throwable" question). I've added a paragraph to the article discussing the controversy. C. Scott Ananian 16:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kawajiri, Nobuyuki Hoshino, Tomoki Hoshino, Watanabe, they are the real gyroballers. Tezuka believes it will be understood correctly by everyone in the future, because even curveball was supposed to be fancy and illusion in the past.Lesoleiletlalune 23:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is a classic case of why Wikipedia is so unreliable. Despite the fact that a consensus has emerged over the course of the 2007 season throughout baseball that the gyroball doesn't exist, the Wikipedia article has gone in the opposite direction, becoming increasingly certain that the pitch is real and does exist. This whole article needs to be rewritten from a more objective point of view. 71.255.169.176 15:54, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

New Facts?

After reading a recent article on yahoo where the the actual creator of the gyroball is interveiwed, it appears that alot of the "knowledge" of the pitch is wrong. Including alot of the facts of this article.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ah5LwrrFQ9RPhGeb62eSXA4RvLYF?slug=jp-mlb_07_gyroball022107&prov=yhoo&type=lgns 口The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.72.134.29 (talk) 01:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

i agree with the guy above. Also you can see what Tom Verducci of cnnsi wrote and what Daisuke Matsuka said about it here "Matsuzaka throws his changeup with a screwball action to it, including a bigger break than most such offspeed pitches. He also throws a harder two-seamer pitch with some sinking action and a slight left-to-right break -- the shuuto, which essentially is Japan's improved version of that two-seam fastball Greg Maddux starts at the hip of left-handed hitters and runs back over the inside corner." full article http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/tom_verducci/03/27/matsuzaka.gyroball/index.html

Actually the article is not perfect, because it ignores Himeno's opinion. Besides, Japanese article says even Tezuka doesn't think he explained it to him so much enough. I don't think the gyro mystery is solved.Lesoleiletlalune 23:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You know what? if you guys are so confident that this so-called "gyroball" exists, just find a video clip, upload it on you-tube, and link to it. Otherwise, quit with the BS Japanese propaganda attempting to over-hype Japanese pitchers. What's the matter? No evidence considering baseball games are ALWAYS televised? Sorry, but that won't fly; Do not pass GO, Do not collect $200.

Only what I know is you can't read Japanese, and I can. Don't you remember? Matsuzaka is not a typical or real gyroballer. How come Japanese propaganda is necessarry? Besides, This ball is very difficult to realize whether it is the gyroball, you can't say it is fancy or not with just personal impression. Anyway, I think why this topic is so difficult because

1, mainly reliable resources are written in Japanese, not in English.
2, the diffinition of gyroball is not very clear.
3, Matsuzaka plays in Boston Redsox! Maybe that's why some people are so emotional.

Lesoleiletlalune

I have video, here: Gyroball video near bottom. It does not break at all. Period. I don't know where you found this, but this journalist has interviewed the scientists and found that it doesn't have a "miracle break" nor is it a "miracle pitch". It merely creates the illusion that it is moving slower or faster than it really is as a result of the laces being less visible than say a fastball. All in all, it is still a decent pitch; it causes people to jam themselves or hit grounders because of the decreased visibility of the laces. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.251.220.176 (talk) 13:26, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

semi-protected?

There are too many mischief and irresponsible edits recently...don't you think semi-protection is necessary?Lesoleiletlalune 23:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I made a mistake when I was trying to add a quote and screwed up the references, if anyone can revert the 9:55 may 10th change with the note: quote added, that would be great. Thanks

This articles acts like the pitch is proven to be real. Just because two scientist claim it's real doesn't mean the article shouldn't even mention the skeptic's side of the story. 24.60.233.137 02:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tone Tag

I tagged this article as needing attention for tone due to the fact that it does not read well in English. The page has obviously been heavily edited or completely written by non-English speakers and it needs a tone edit badly. It also needs to be conformed to WP:MOS; I would help out with that at the moment but am backlogged with my WP:PHILLIES work. I will put it on my list, but that list is quite long. Someone else is really needed to help this article. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 19:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Video game appearances

The following paragraph is from the video game appearances section.

"In the video game MLB 07: The Show and the more recent The Bigs, only Daisuke Matsuzaka has the ability to throw the gyroball, although the movement of the pitch in the video game differs from the movement of the actual pitch. Daisuke Matsuzaka has himself stated, "looks like they are talking about my cut fastball or sinking slider. I guess sometimes it has a similar rotation of a gyro, when I fail to throw the cut fastball or the slider properly, but it is not exactly a gyro itself. It is different. There is a particular way of throwing it. I guess it is a kind of shuuto-like cut fastball". (However, in the long-lasting Japan-Baseball game series Jikkyō Powerful Pro Yakyū series, Daisuke is never given "Gyroball" ability for any installment, nor in the MLB Power Pros series installment.) It is an obtainable ability in the MLB Power Pros series, and its effect is to make the fastball look faster."

There needs to be some type of source for Matsuzaka's statements, because those statements seem to indicate that he can throw the gyro, but he has never stated he does as far as I know, and I have never heard of proof that he does.Tithonfury (talk) 18:21, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A proposed way of describing the gyroball

I suggest that you start by defining this (or any pitch) objectively, in terms of these four vectors at release: rotation with respect to the ball seams, rotation with respect to earth frame of reference, velocity, and position.

I also recommend that in defining the pitch you initially ignore the actions of the pitcher which determine these four vectors at release, because they have no effect whatsoever on the behavior of the ball, even though they may be of great importance because of how they affect the batter's perception.

Let's assume right-handed pitcher, and take the direction from mound to plate as the positive x axis, mound to first base as positive y, and up as positive z. This defines a right-handed Cartesian coordinate system.

The first vector is the rotation vector with respect to the ball. It is best understood by considering the two extremes: four seam fastball, two seam fastball. Every pitch is thrown with a vector somewhere between these two extremes.

The second vector is rotation with respect to earth. It is best understood by the five extreme cases. Slider--close to the positive x axis; Curve ball--close to the positive y axis but tilted toward positive z axis; Fastball--close to the negative y axis; Screwball--close to the negative z axis; Knuckleball--close (in magnitude) to the zero vector.

The other two vectors are less important but should be specified if you think they are important. Together, these two vectors determine where the ball would cross the plate, at what angle, and how fast, if the ball didn't curve in any direction, except for the acceleration due to gravity.

This framework will immediately and conclusively resolve your controversy about whether or not this is a real pitch. If a distinct set of vectors (different from any other pitch) can be given, then it is a distinct pitch. If not, it is not.

Mark.camp (talk) 02:33, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Need definition

The subject of this article is the gyroball. An article on the gyroball must start with a statement of what a gyroball is. Currently, there is no definition. Could someone provide it?

Mark.camp (talk) 03:48, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A gyroball doesn't "break". That's the whole point. It true gyroball would only have gyrospin (ie. bullet spin or the spiral spin on a football). Gyrospin doesn't create a Magnus force that pushes the ball away from it's straightline motion (as dictated by gravity and air drag). So, the gyrospin doesn't cause any horizontal or vertical spin deflection the way the side spin would on a slider or the top spin would on a curve. The gyroball is basically a back-up slider, and you'll sometimes see pitcher's accidentally throw it when they tilt the spin axis of their slider in a way that causes the usual side spin to be gyrospin.

The definition of a true gyroball is one with only gyrospin, and thus no horizontal or vertical spin deflection. Descriptions talking about the extraordinary movement on a gyroball are incorrect. A gyroball is notable for not having any movement due to its spin, despite the fact that it is spinning radidly. Physicist Alan Nathan describes the gyroball in detail here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dguidi2528 (talk • contribs) 20:02, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Introductory sentence

The introductory sentence in an article on the gyroball should state what a gyroball is. Currently the first sentence does not do this. Could someone rewrite the first sentence? Mark.camp (talk) 01:24, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ref

This link [1] is from the Baseball Research Journal, if it's of use to anyone trying to improve this article. Woodshed (talk) 20:27, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Potential Gyroballers

Ken Giles of the Astros throws a slider that is very close to being a true gyroball. Giles' slider has less than half an inch of horizontal and vertical spin deflection, according to Brooks Baseball. Another pitcher for the Astros, James Hoyt, throws a slider that has the smallest amount of horizontal and vertical spin deflection of any slider (.13 inches horizontal, .02 inches vertical), according to Brooks Baseball. So far as I can tell, he throws the closest thing to a true gyroball of any major-league pitcher. Both of these pitchers have spin rates in excess of 2000 RPMs on their pitch, according to Statcast, so it's not the lack of movement isn't attributable to a lack of spin. It's just that almost all of the spin is gyrospin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dguidi2528 (talk • contribs) 20:39, 19 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Gyroball mechanics and the Gyroball's evil twin, the Knuckleball

I recently added a more in-depth description of the pitching method and mechanics for the Gyro and also cleaned up some other things (Like someone leaving in that the Gyroball has break). I included Tezuka's claim that it can only be thrown by sidearm or sub-mariner delivery. Even though I have my own theories of how it can be done with the overhand approach, aa well as a better gripping technique, both based on the technique for throwing a perfect spiral with a football. Which, alas, would be Original Research, without references.

Also, despite Tezuka stating that "the hands aren't important," how the ball is held is very important, as is stated in the reference. It must be gripped in the exact middle, with an "appropriate amount of pressure."^[1]

I also found out through reading references about other pitches that Kunckballs, especially those of R.A. Dickey, have a side-to-side rotation just like the Gyro. It provides evidence that bullet spin is possible. Its extremely low rpm's and slow velocity gives the Knuckleball its erratic trajectory.^[2] It seems evident that it is the Gyroball's like-but-opposite "evil" twin. Just like a bullet, a ball with side-spin that has high rpm's makes its flight have the stabilization required for a straight trajectory, i.e. The Gyroball

Thought I would provide a report on my recent editing efforts in this article. Persistent Corvid (talk) 03:42, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ An Analysis of the Gyroball. Alan Nathan and Dave Baldwin, "An Analysis of the Gyroball."
^ Anatomy of a Really Nasty Pitch Alan M. Nathan, "Anatomy of a Really Nasty Pitch"

Years missing and speed comparison

Comparison in speed to 4 seam fastball and 2 seam fastball.

Years ? The pitch seems rather contemporary but there is not a single year in the article. Setenzatsu (talk) 17:53, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

[1] An Analysis of the Gyroball. Alan Nathan and Dave Baldwin, "An Analysis of the Gyroball."

[2] Anatomy of a Really Nasty Pitch Alan M. Nathan, "Anatomy of a Really Nasty Pitch"

[1]

[2]