Talk:Kofta/Archive 1

Archive 1

Photo?

Is this photo kofta?

Badagnani 22:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is. It is called Cig Kofte, meaning Raw Kofte. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.89.234.27 (talk) 05:48, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Life and Culture of the Byzantines, Phaidon Koukoules kofta derives from byzantine greek food: κοπτον κρέας(=chopped meat).the word κοπτον became kofta. "faidon koykoyles-byzantine vias and culture - book 5." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.167.52.4 (talk) 07:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

As a chef specialized in this kind of dish

As a chef specialized in this kind of dish I recommend the Romanian chiftele, made of a mix of pork, beef and minced potato, with garlic, spices and eggs added to the original mix. Onion, is a vegetable welcomed when one prepares the meat, but in the case of the Romanian chiftele this vegetable is loosing the original strenght and flavor. Bon apetit to all ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.196.150.157 (talk) 09:35, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 18:30, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Proposed merger with Kabab koobideh

Kabab koobideh is quite clearly a kebab, not a kofte. I'm removing the tag. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 20:55, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

"is quite clearly a kebab", which is basically a kofte, according to the articles here: minced/ground meet with onions and spices. 142.73.82.13 (talk) 18:00, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Untitled

The article states that in the simplest form kufta/kofta is just ground meat and onions... however, what's the difference between this and just a meatball (which has its own name in Indian languages, Farsi, Turkish, etc.) ? At its simplest form kufta/kofta ALWAYS has a starchy element--bulgar wheat, or potatoes or rice, or barley, etc. The egg is optional, depending on the cuisine. Paprika or garlic or allspice, etc. are optional and depend on the cuisine. Same goes with tomato sauce/juice in the pre-cooked mixture. Ground meat, onions and some kind of carbohydrate is the simplest form of kufta, otherwise it's just a meatball. Most Turkish kufta, all Syrian kufta, all Armenian kufta, etc. contain wheat or some kid of grain product, either whole or half ground or as a flour, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.175.191.248 (talk) 03:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Turkish Cuisine, which is a food meatballs.Turkish Origin

İnegöl meatballs, meatball Akçabat, butcher meat,grilled meat, a wide variety of home, such as local varieties of burgers available. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.160.18.212 (talk) 20:41, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Proposed merger into Meatball

Kofta is the same. Must be merged! In other case (now) we have incorrect interwiki links. E. g. en:Meatball link to ru:Тефтели, but (!) ru:Тефтели verse link to en:Kofta. Other page have equal proposal. This is a post from discussion page of Meatball:

   There seems to be multiple regional articles about basically the same thing. Should they all be merged into this one Meatball article? --NJR_ZA (talk) 09:10, 29 November 2008

--= APh =-- 22:49, 16 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by APh (talk • contribs)

zero Minor deprived pork and Vt C in turkey

what are the gret Mercimek köfte? why thurks just rush exported concentrates on the shelves but cokes in the refrigrator? 5.47.159.232 (talk) 20:47, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:OR section

The part I have removed recently were just personal opinions of a random IP. His/her very own researches which were not backed up by any reliable sources[1][2][3][4]. Complete pov stuff.94.176.86.82 (talk) 07:40, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Plus see:[5] and [6]. there is no other reliable etymology for the name of this food.94.176.86.82 (talk) 07:42, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Even the Greek "κεφτές" is a borrowing from Ottoman Turkish [Term?] (Turkish köfte), from Persian کوفته‏ (kofteh).[7] so the IP's stuff is complete nonsense.94.176.86.82 (talk) 08:09, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Nargisi kofta

Scotch egg sources a general belief that the British version of sausage-wrapped eggs "derived from food the British encountered in the Raj, including a Mughlai dish called nargisi kofta ("Narcissus meatballs")." I'd like to restore the image, perhaps in the Indian or Pakistani subsection, as it does not duplicate any of the other images in this article. Just plain Bill (talk) 22:29, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

How does the general user differentiate among pictures of meat koftas? The article has one Iranian meat kofta, one paneer, one vegetarian, one fish, one from Turkey, and one from Egypt. The nargisi kofta may represent a common dish (how unique is it?) from India or Pakistan, but shouldn't it be sourced by WP:RS, and shouldn't the caption not refer to being "served at home in Saudi Arabia"? Zefr (talk) 22:47, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

That part of the caption does seem superfluous, I agree. The obvious difference from other dishes shown in the article is, of course, the boiled egg in the middle of it. I will drill down into various sources, and see what they support. If someone else gets there first, so much the better. Just plain Bill (talk) 22:57, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Images in top section

I pruned them down to a half dozen. IMO the next one to cut is the fish dish, mostly for consistency of visual composition; the others are more tightly framed. I am not married to this edit, but believe it to be an improvement.

Calling the Nargisi kofte "Karachi style" in the caption seems reasonable. From MOS:IMAGE "Generally, Wikipedia assumes in good faith that image creators are correctly identifying the contents of photographs they have taken." Just plain Bill (talk) 16:03, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Yuvarlakia into Kofta

It's a technique of cooking kofta ("moist heat") that should be discussed in the kofta article Spudlace (talk) 02:43, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support Lightly sourced article which is yet another kofta variant. Belongs in the main kofta article. Geoff | ^{Who, me?} 17:36, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Kofta are normally grilled meatballs cooked without an integral sauce. Yuvarlakia are about as similar to normal kofta as tas kebab (a stew, despite its name) is to normal kebab. If we're going to include yuvarlakia in kofta, we should just merge kofta into meatball, because the category of kofta becomes meaningless. Remember that WP policy is to organize articles by content, not by name, so the fact that they're called eksili köfte in Turkish is not dispositive. --Macrakis (talk) 18:32, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
• Comment There are some interesting corner cases. Seekh kebab is another interesting one.... I think we need to work more on separating the cases out carefully by nature rather than by name. --Macrakis (talk) 18:38, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it is WP policy to have separate articles for each food with avgolemono sauce like "stuffed grape leaves with avgolemono sauce". I don't know what they're called in Turkish (according to Google translate "minus meatballs") or why you are bringing that up. If there was an article for "minus meatballs" I would support the merge. Spudlace (talk) 20:39, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, this is an interesting corner case, as I mentioned above, and I don't think there's a clear answer.

The Turkish name ekşili köfte (added by an anon a few months ago) was misspelled in the yuvarlakia article (with an s rather than an ş), giving the nonsensical translation you found. Claudia Roden calls it terbiyeli köfte and says that it's also made in Greece, but doesn't give the Greek name! Recipes and photos show that they are the same (e.g., [8]); but it is harder to find reliable sources for that.

As a general rule, I agree with you that very similar dishes should be treated together -- take a look at Talk:Crème brûlée#Merge from Crema catalana. But in that case, we have multiple reliable sources saying that they are "virtually identical", and yet you supported separate articles, based on the argument that there are "primary source traditions that have become firmly established in Western academic literature, and often have distinct cultural traditions and associated customs that have developed over centuries." Well, let's look at the cultural traditions in the case of yuvarlakia. In Tselementes's recipe, he never calls them kefte, so that would be an argument that they are emically not kefte in Greece. But the Turkish name does call them köfte, so that's an argument that they're emically a kind of köfte in Turkey. Leading us to the problematic conclusion that in the English Wikipedia, the same dish must be classified in two different ways depending on whether it is prepared in Turkey or in Greece.

My sense is that yuvarlakia are distinctive enough to usefully have a separate article, but it's clearly debatable. I'll be interested to see what other editors say. --Macrakis (talk) 21:52, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose My own proposal after the extended discussion, this is more narrow than kofta. Spudlace (talk) 18:18, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

CLOSE as DON'T MERGE The proposer has withdrawn the proposal and there has been no further discussion. --Macrakis (talk) 20:10, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

It means meatball. Most Greek recipes have sections For the yuvarlakia and for the avgolemono. We have Greek-American recipes from well-known authors like Aglaia Kremezi that use it in English as "Youvarlakia with mushrooms, eggplant and walnuts in egg-and-lemon-broth". In English, the common name is usually "Greek meatball soup" or maybe "Youvarlakia Avogolemono" or "Meatballs in egg-and-lemon sauce".

There is no dish yuvarlakia, it is just the Greek word for meatball. I don't think you need to worry about the Turkish names, terbiye redirects to Avgolemono. Spudlace (talk) 23:10, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, fried or grilled meatballs without sauce are never called yuvarlakia either in Greek or in English. Tselementes has a recipe entitled Yuvarlakia, and he has different recipes entitled Keftedes.

I don't know what you mean about "worrying" about the Turkish names, and I'm quite aware that terbiye means avgolemono; I added that to the avgolemono article in 2006. --Macrakis (talk) 01:32, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

You're missing the point, which is hard to believe since you made this edit recently [9]. It would be like taking "Spaghetti and meatballs" and adding it to another foreign language project as "meatball" and then making something up that "meatball is a braised kofta in American cuisine" and then defending it by saying something like spaghetti isn't fried. Spudlace (talk) 02:29, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

I think you mean this edit in 2015, where I added the word kefte. I was mistaken. Checking now, I see that neither the Triantaphyllides nor the Babiniotis dictionary, nor the Tselementes cookbook calls them kefte.

I don't follow your analogies at all. But you know what? I really don't feel that strongly about the merger. As I have said twice above, it's debatable. So let's see what other editors have to say.

What is more problematic is that you have removed the Turkish names and that you've categorized this as a soup. In Turkey, they do call it a soup, but I believe it is treated as a stew-like main dish in Greek cooking. You have added a book on etiquette which has a one-line definition (?!) as a source, when there are many better sources. --Macrakis (talk) 03:50, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Under which Wikipedia policy is removing unsourced content that is probably wrong "problematic"? Spudlace (talk) 04:39, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

It is unsourced, but probably right. Claudia Roden describes them clearly in her Book of Middle Eastern Food under the name terbiyeli köfte, as I mentioned above. What is missing is a source explicitly saying that terbiyeli köfte and (Smyrneika) yuvarlakia are the same thing, since concluding that they are the same thing because the recipes are near-identical and the online photos look alike is WP:SYNTH. So I believe that falls under the WP:PRESERVE policy. --Macrakis (talk) 13:58, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

It does not because it is not verifiable. It's probably wrong, and verifiably wrong. Yuvarlakia are cooked in moist heat because they always have rice. That is your assertion argued in this discussion and I think that is probably true, and I no longer support merging because of this. But it isn't true for the kofta family and there are reliable sources for grilled versions of the second dish. They don't have to merge into the yuvarlakia article, and they shouldn't merge into that article. I've seen you make mistakes making unsourced edits such as calling this a kefte where you've now admitted that was a mistake, or saying that cooking pans are made out of stainless steel when they are not because stainless steel is a poor conductor of heat. That is not what WP:PRESERVE is for. Spudlace (talk) 18:09, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I make mistakes. I'm pretty sure everyone does. I try to fix them when I realize it, and I'm happy when other people fix my errors, as I fix theirs.

I don't remember what I said about stainless pans. Modern stainless pans have an aluminum (or even copper) core for conductivity. Some have a copper bottom (though supposedly too thin to make much difference). Not sure what the point is.

What is the "second dish" that you are saying has "grilled versions"?

I'd be happy to see "proof" that yuvarlakia and terbiyeli köfte are distinct. All the evidence I've seen (including the Roden recipe I've mentioned a couple of times) points to their being the same. Here is a Web page that says explicitly that terbiyeli sulu köfte and yuvarlakia are the same dish with a different name. Unfortunately, it is not a WP:RS as it is just a cooking blog. I would guess that some people do talk about keftedes cooked in moist heat; after all, we're talking cuisine, where there's a lot of variation in individual usage.

WP:PRESERVE is precisely for the case where something appears to be true, but we can't find good sources for it yet. --Macrakis (talk) 19:11, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Even the most erudite make mistakes when caught in the snare of vanity. Spudlace (talk) 19:40, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Kindly avoid personal attacks. All editors are supposed to be collaborating in improving WP. --Macrakis (talk) 19:42, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

I am sorry that you feel that was a personal attack, but it wasn't. It was gentle advice but I see it isn't going to be helpful, so I won't say anything further. I'm sorry that you feel attacked. Spudlace (talk) 19:55, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Very funny. --Macrakis (talk) 20:41, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Akçaabat meatballs into Kofta

It's unsourced since 2013. No difference from kofta to require a separate article other than its association with a certain town Spudlace (talk) 04:59, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support Nom makes sense. Geoff | ^{Who, me?} 17:34, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support This is just a trivial variant. --Macrakis (talk) 18:32, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support Unsourced English stub does not go into distinguishing characteristics. The Turkish wikipedia article is padded with puffery about the quality of the beef used, and mentions some usual accompaniments, such as ayran being a favored beverage. Just plain Bill (talk) 21:21, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm sure the region is justly proud of their specialty dish and the quality of the veal may be notable, since it is freshly slaughtered (according to TasteAtlas) I don't think it's mere puffery. We do give regional variations with established notability their own articles. Maybe more sources will become available in the future, but, this one line article has been without any sources since 2013. Spudlace (talk) 22:29, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Fair enough. The question of whether some of that content can be incorporated in the English WP is adjacent but separate from whether it should stand on its own as a stubby article, or merged into this one. I still favor merging, leaving open the possibility of it eventually becoming fleshed out enough to stand on its own. Just plain Bill (talk) 22:46, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 17:53, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Etymology

@Idell: This[10] was your very own POV. Your source[11] says it's From Urdu and Persian koftah ‘pounded meat’. Plus it's not a WP:RS for etymology stuff. The other one[12] is just a link to the main page of a personal website; non-WP:RS again. The word is a Persian loanword[13] (see Descendants) in Urdu. How did you reach that conclusion "It also comes from Classical Persian..."?! WP is not a dictionary. What "kofta" means in Urdu belongs to its own section: Kofta#Pakistan --Wario-Man (talk) 20:55, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Wow... I just found you disrupted Wiktionary entries and inserted your POV there too.[14][15] Reliable sources?! Really?! --Wario-Man (talk) 03:32, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

And this is what cited source (Alan S. Kaye, "Persian loanwords in English", English Today) says: "kofta (‘a meat or fish rissole, popular in theEast’) < Hindi and Urdu kufta (‘a poundedmeat’) < Persian kufta (‘rissole’)" I edited the etymology per source. --Wario-Man (talk) 04:27, 1 October 2020 (UTC)