Talk:National Basketball Association/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Lead changes

I have composed this revision to the lead of the page: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=National_Basketball_Association&oldid=895694007

It details the structure of the league, its history, as well as information directly tied to the league in terms of viewership and attendance. It also details some of the most notable teams associated with the competition. It is a much more comprehensive overview of the NBA.

In comparison to the current revision, there is information in the lead which does not need to be there, namely with the location of head offices and side arms of the NBA; information that is not directly linked to the basketball competition.

Other than that, I have simply restructured existing elements of the content in the lead, while adding information regarding the league's composition and seasonal structure. Like I have said, the revision I have proposed is a more comprehensive overview of the NBA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BoogieFreeman (talk • contribs)

This isn't a proposal but an imposition. As a good-faith measure, please restore the original wording until a clear consensus is raeched here. There was nothing wrong with the previous wording of the Lead, and you were free to add information you felt was missing, but not to rewrite it wholesale. You've rewritten the Lead to make it sound like it's a European league or something. "Contested by 30 teams, it operates on a post-season playoff format." The NBA doesn't use pomotion and relegation, so this wording is inappropriate, nor do North American professional leagues use European terminology, MLS excepted. Work with what's already there, as has been written over time by the article's regular editors. If you believe something is unclear, then present your proposed solution here, and work with the regular editors to reach a solution. - BilCat (talk) 00:36, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

I concur that the proposed changes are terrible, as they put irrelevant information first. BoogieFreeman, I think you need to read professional sports league organization, as the proposed lead appears to be written with assumptions that reflect incorrectly the organization of the league, and of its nature as a business entity.

More importantly, your constant reverting to make a point will quickly lead to a block, so if you do wish to keep editing, it's best for you not to do that again. oknazevad (talk) 03:08, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

@BilCat, I understand your point in regards to wholesale edits, but aside from that one line, there is nothing else within my edit that can justifiably be argued as inferior to the current revision. I looked at the structure of the lead in other American leagues (NFL in particular), which follows a similar structure to mine.— Preceding unsigned comment added by BoogieFreeman (talk • contribs) 21:11, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

And @oknazevad, my proposed changes list the league's operational structure, how the champion is crowned, as well as its standing worldwide, attendance and viewing figures, and notable team(s). You cannot describe that as "irrelevant information" for the lead. But for information on side-branches, such as NBA TV and the location of NBA Entertainment... Then that description would be correct. And persistent revision is the only way to begin conversation and gain consensus, threat of block or not.— Preceding unsigned comment added by BoogieFreeman (talk • contribs) 21:11, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

No, "persistent revision" is edit warring and unacceptable, non-collaborator ebehavior. oknazevad (talk) 16:18, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Exactly. The best way to "begin conversation" is to actually begin a conversation on the article's talk page. (Not that all of us always do that, myself included, but it is the best way.) This is even more so on an article such as this one, which is on a popular topic, and is monitored by many editors. - BilCat (talk) 19:19, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

My main objection was per MOS:BEGIN (If appropriate, it should give the location and time.) regarding the removal from the lead paragraph of the league being located in US and Canada.—Bagumba (talk) 08:27, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

In my opinion, the lead text that was replaced is inferior to the original phrasing, which should have been left alone. Besides the "Contested by 30 teams . . ." phrase mentioned above, the proposed "The competition was formed . . ." is an awkward construction compared with the more standard "The league was founded . . .".

In addition to my issues with the proposed rephrasing, I don't think the discussion of the playoff format is worth detailing in the lead. I also feel that listing the multi-champion teams with a cutoff at two is the sort of trivia that just invites churn in the lead as other editors drop in their own favorite topics (lists of MVPs, lists of top scorers, players with most championships, etc). On the positive side, your proposed fourth paragraph is a reasonable addition (though I'd excise the sentence tied to the 2017-18 season). I also agree that the last sentence of the current lead (regarding NBA TV and NBA Entertainment) should be dropped.

One last note. Your proposed change includes the statement "Thirty-two teams have competed since the NBA's inception . . ." which is wrong. Even if we construe "teams" to mean "franchises", note that there are 30 current franchises and 15 defunct franchises. This makes 45. Not sure how you arrived at 32. — Myasuda (talk) 01:45, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

I do agree that the previous lead could have been better organized, so I performed some rearrangement of the lead text that I think aligns somewhat with the proposed lead change, but without extensive rewording. Feel free to revert or modify.—Myasuda (talk) 14:22, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Toronto Raptors are in the 2019 NBA Finals

The Raptors are still listed in the subsection "Current teams that have no NBA Finals appearances," under the Championships header. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.118.91.215 (talk) 03:39, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Fixed -- thanks for pointing that out.—Myasuda (talk) 03:46, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

What is considered an official announcement of a sign, trade, waiving, etc

I'm sure all of us are all too familiar with the severe uptick in edits towards a player's page once speculation in regard to a trade, signing, or other transaction arises in the media. To be clear, I understand many of these reports, tweets, and rumors don't actually come to fruition, but it gets to a point where such a strict system causes Wikipedia to appear as though the information isn't updated constantly and as soon as possible. Of course, it is important to be able to distinguish between something that is "almost a done deal" or "clear front runners" from "Player1 has been traded to City for Player2 and a future draft pick". These phrases are commonly used from reliable NBA insiders like Adrian Wojnarowski and Shams Charania with the third phrase very often indicating an official trade that comes to fruition shortly after. I am aware that ever so often (extremely rarely), there will be an "official" Woj or Shams report/tweet that ends up falling through, namely DeAndre Jordan in 2015, but these outliers shouldn't hold up the editing process of staying up to date with accurate and reliable information.

A perfect example of this, while there are many around this time in the off season, is Aron Baynes. Right now, Aron Baynes is listed as a member of the Boston Celtics on Wikipedia. Looking at the Boston Celtics official homepage, yes, Aron Baynes is still listed on the roster, but this trade was announced by Woj and Shams on draft night and effected the draft selections because the Celtics (technically the 76ers) were making the pick for the Phoenix Suns. The trade was generally reported as: "The Celtics are trading Aron Baynes and the No. 24 pick to the Suns for a future 2020 first round pick. The Suns are focused on Ty Jerome at No. 24." This trade has been reported on multiple times since draft night and in the eyes of the NBA and the players involved, it is a done deal. I'm sure there is some official date or rule that makes it so these trades are technically not "official" yet, but I think it is important not to mislead casual fans who are curious about what team a player is on at any given time. The NBA website has been known to be the last source you can go to when trying to figure out who is on what team, and to me it is honestly embarrassing. I understand that it may be because they wait for everything to be squared away perfectly, but I believe it hurts the reputation of the website and makes it very difficult for fans to keep up to date especially around this time of year.

Now, some of you might argue that Wiki should just go off of what the poorly managed NBA website has to say and when it updates rosters or announces trades, then it is okay for Wiki users to do the same. I don't agree with this at all strictly because the NBA website is always behind, but I'm not even sure that the NBA website is what wiki bases it's "official" edits on. Aron Baynes is listed as a Celtic on NBA.com, a Celtic on Wiki, and a Sun on ESPN. Ty Jerome, the No. 24 pick that was involved in the Baynes trade, is listed a 76er on NBA.com, a Sun on Wiki, and a Celtic on ESPN. Clearly, there is some discrepancy on what is official and when it becomes so, among other huge information platforms as well. Carsen Edwards, another draft day trade, is listed as a 76er on NBA.com, a Celtic on Wiki, and a Celtic on ESPN.

I am all for accurate and reliable information on Wikipedia, but I also believe people come to Wikipedia for updated information as well, especially for sports. Due to their resumes and positive reliability over many years, I believe that a report by Woj or Shams stating "Player1 has been traded" or "Team1 and Player1 have agreed to a stated contract", should be considered legit and therefore warrant an update on the player or players page(s). On the off chance that a reported done deal falls through, then these edits are easily revertible. When reports do start to come in, as they already have, moderators do a great job on getting protection on the pages so only certain people can make edits and I think this is necessary and important going forward if the community decides to go through with this idea. Please let me know any other suggestions, agreements, disagreements you all have. RichieConant34 (talk) 22:55, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Lakers dominance years

https://brandonbasketballhistory.weebly.com/minneapolis-lakers-of-the-early-1950s.html

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nba/mpls/mplslakers.html

http://stewthornley.net/mplslakers.html

http://www.nba.com/encyclopedia/minneapolis_lakers.html

trying to find the Lakers dominance sources isn't hard to find

Hey. Forgot basketball reference. It's good for it — Preceding unsigned comment added by New340 (talk • contribs) 00:20, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Map of NBA Teams

I noticed that the map of NBA teams is relatively low-quality. Also, the Lakers and Clippers are shown as separate dots even though they share the same arena (and therefore they share the same location on a map). Can someone please create a location map (preferably based on this map) that shows each of the NBA stadiums with a single dot? I created a similar map on Google Drawings, but I would prefer something using the location map feature. I am a new user (just joined Wikipedia yesterday) and I am unable to make changes to this article or create a template. Sanjay7373 (talk) 05:23, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Welcome to Wiki @Sanjay7373:, I agree , good point. I however am no good with graphics and maps, hopefully another user with the required skills can help. EliteArcher88 (talk) 23:43, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

I have made 431 edits since I created my account at the end of July, so I'm close to being extended confirmed, I'm arguably no longer a new user and I could make the location map myself. Sanjay7373 (talk) 23:54, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

@Sanjay7373: The map is not low quality since it is a SVG file. The Template:Location map would cause more problems than fix them. – Sabbatino (talk) 15:01, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, but using a location map would be more accurate. We have one at Chinese Basketball Association, so what's the problem including one here? The current map gives the false impression that the Clippers' stadium is northwest of the Lakers' stadium, when really the occupy the same arena, Staples Center. I might also do the same on other similar pages such as Major League Baseball, National Football League, and National Hockey League. Sanjay7373 (talk) 19:23, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

@Sanjay7373: WP:OSE is not a justification to make the change. In addition, the SVG logo can be easily fixed. You should also consider consulting with WT:NBA, WT:NHL, WT:NFL and WT:MLB before making the change since we do not need any edit wars. – Sabbatino (talk) 09:05, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

nba.com

When I open http://www.nba.com it redirects to https://www.beinsports.com, is this temporary or correct behavior?! I have never gone to nba.com and don't know anything about it; its subdomains and directories are shown without problem: https://help.nba.com and http://www.nba.com/lakers -- Editor-1 (talk) 16:34, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm having no such problem myself. A glitch on your end, probably.

That said, unless you were asking if there was an issue with the link in the article (which there does not appear to be), then this isn't the place to ask. Wikipedia talk pages are for discussing the article content, not the subject of the article. oknazevad (talk) 23:24, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

"Nationa Basketball Association" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Nationa Basketball Association. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 17#Nationa Basketball Association until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Regards, SONIC678 20:22, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Manute Bol's listed height

Please contribute to this discussion on the List of tallest players in National Basketball Association history talk page. Thanks, Rodney Baggins (talk) 13:03, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Modern Era

Kawhi was traded to Toronto. Text says: "...Toronto Raptors, who won their first championship after signing free agent Kawhi Leonard." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:8500:F650:D471:5264:B4BA:5698 (talk) 05:00, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2020

the current champions are the los angelas lakers Xxvibc (talk) 22:54, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 02:03, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2020

This is a request to change the header of the 2014-Present section of "History" to read "Modern Era" instead of "Decline in the Modern Era". The on-court product of the NBA has not been substantially changed by the minor drop in TV Viewership, and considering the politicized arguments that sometimes arise over the cause of the decline, it is best for Wikipedia to not draw attention to the issue in the header. Ekimo3631 (talk) 04:16, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

I think some call the "modern era" after the ABA-NBA merger. I just changed to "Recent years". Feel free to improve.—Bagumba (talk) 07:51, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Adding an "International" section in the table of "TV Partners"

Could we add a section under the "TV Partners" part of the table with a section called "International", than a hyperlink which says "List of international broadcasters" to the Wikipedia page of "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_National_Basketball_Association_broadcasters". As I think it would be helpful for any new or current fan of the NBA to find their local TV channel which shows games. Furthermore, it would also portray the NBA's global audience. For some context or idea of what I am discussing, go on the EuroLeague Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EuroLeague) and see its "TV Partner" section, it has a hyperlink to to all their broadcasters. But instead this would say "List of international broadcasters" instead of "List of broadcasters" as the US and Canada's partners are already displayed/mentioned above in their own sections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.231.216.132 (talk) 08:19, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

An infobox is to readily show key facts. A link to a list doesn't readily provide that. Per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE: Avoid links to sections within the article; the table of contents provides that function. This seems applicable for links to other pages as well. The section National Basketball Association#Media coverage in the body is sufficient.—Bagumba (talk) 09:00, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Fair enough, the link I provided is there anyways in the Media Coverage section. Thanks for the quick reply though! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.231.216.132 (talk) 20:01, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2021

Los Angeles Lakers are current nba champions 2A00:23C5:CE00:F701:DCDC:8E4E:49D6:C003 (talk) 23:15, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Already identified as such in the infobox. Unclear what you want changed. oknazevad (talk) 23:56, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Charlotte/New Orleans Hornets Confusion

In the footnotes beneath the list of teams, the history of the Charlotte Hornets/New Orleans Pelicans is muddled. I am not familiar enough to confidently correct this, but it seems pretty clear that Charlotte Hornets "rejoined the league" in 2014, not 2004. The Pelicans then rebooted as a "new" franchise that same year; or are the Pelicans considered a new franchise established in 2002 when it left Charlotte; the Pelicans would thus still own the "New Orleans Hornet's" history from 2002 onward? –Zfish118^⋉talk 14:44, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

The official records show the Charlotte franchise beginning play in 1988 as the Charlotte Hornets, suspending operations in 2002, returning in 2004 as the Charlotte Bobcats, and changing names back to the Charlotte Hornets in 2014. Meanwhile, the New Orleans franchise began in 2002 as a replacement for the Charlotte franchise (as the owner transferred his franchise rights), were forced by Hurricane Katrina in 2005 to play most of their games in Oklahoma City for two seasons, during which period they were known as the New Orleans/Oklahoma City Hornets, returned to New Orleans full time in 2007, and, under new ownership, changed their name to the New Orleans Pelicans in 2013 to free up the Hornets name for the Charlotte franchise to resume its original name.

That is something of a retcon, however. Until the rename (back) to the Charlotte Hornets, the Bobcats were considered a separate franchise. The gifting of the pre-2002 records and name by the Pelicans to the Hornets is considered a case of righting the wrong of the team ever moving in the first place; the league didn't want to leave Charlotte, but then-owner George Shinn had burned every bridge possible, and him staying in Charlotte was impossible. So they let him move his franchise, and immediately found new owners for a replacement expansion team. Shinn is considered in both cities and the league as a whole to have been a terrible owner who lead his franchise into bankruptcy.

So your latter scenario is correct; the modern Charlotte Hornets and the original are considered the same team, just one that took a couple of years off used the name Bobcats for ten years due to extenuating circumstances. Meanwhile New Orleans is considered a later expansion team that began in 2004. oknazevad (talk) 17:43, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Walkerdt.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 04:54, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 20 August 2018 and 14 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Culmitch.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:26, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Yyaaaasssssss daddy

References

Semi-protected edit request on 31 August 2022

The total number of championship game appearances for the Celtics should be 22 - that column in the championships table has not been updated following the 2022 NBA finals, and is still at 21. 108.12.214.2 (talk) 17:59, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done Good eye. Fixed. oknazevad (talk) 19:19, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Tallest Players

Muresan, Mao, not tallest, this dude suleiman was almost 2.50cm, i think we should add special article on who is tallest... www.eurobasket.com/over210.asp -in nba it was Bol

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_people — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirandamir (talk • contribs) 20:01, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

North American

Greetings, I agree to use the word "American" to refer to the United States citizens in English, what I see in the top US-Canada leagues (not just NBA) is the omission of the other top-leagues in the rest of North America. In early 2008, there was a club tournament between representative of the top leagues of the Americas (NBA excluded), the final game was disputed between a South American club and a North American club. JC (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Patrick Williams

Patrick Williams Picture should be added in the 2020 NBA Draft Side Photos mention Patrick Williams was selected 4th overall by the Chicago Bulls after rising on draft boards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kartigang038885 (talk • contribs) 15:41, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Team Logos & Fonts/Wordmark

Ok so I noticed this has been an issue of discussion before, but WHY exactly do most NBA team article pages have the name/wordmark in their primary info box aside from teams such as the Cavs, Jazz, Nuggets & Rockets? I’ve noticed some are marked as having their primary logo but some of those same sources have no word marks at all for most league teams while other sources do. So what is the official source? If the wordmark exists shouldn’t we post it along with the team? Especially if it’s incorporated in primary logos? Banan14kab (talk) 07:58, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Teams decide which logo is their main. The source for which logo to use is the team's press release and not what the main NBA website or some fansite (Boundtoball) show. – Sabbatino 14:20, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Ok well if that is the case then all the teams' infoboxes should have the primary logo, which is always shown on the midcourt section of everyone's homecourt. Only teams like the Celtics, Kings, Minnesota Timberwolves etc. should have the wordmark still as their primary midcourt logos always contain the wordmark as well. I personally can replace all the images if need be. Banan14kab (talk) 01:43, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

You are mistaken to assume that the center court logo is always the primary. It's not for the Nets, for example. (The B a basketball is a partial logo; their official primary logo is the full shield). oknazevad (talk) 04:00, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

I am aware of that. The primary logo is currently in the Nets article. I am not sure what press release website Wikipedia is going off of as when I research I find various sites. One site even has the primary logos set with all the wordmarks including the Nuggets and Rockets logos. Banan14kab (talk) 13:45, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Non-NBA websites are not reliable (for example, the one that you mentioned). Teams publish press releases for a reason and everything can be found on their websites. However, the NBA changed its website design and it is now problematic to find older announcements (even some new announcements cannot be easily found). – Sabbatino 14:20, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

"En bee ay" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect En bee ay and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 November 30#En bee ay until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 747pilot (talk) 01:31, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 March 2023

Cameroonian-born basketball player Pascal Siakam was a 2019 NBA champion with the Toronto Raptors, 2019 Most Improved Player, and was a 2020 and 2023 NBA All-Star.

Please state that Pascal Siakam also played in the 2023 NBA All-Stars. 184.146.225.78 (talk) 16:50, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

 Partly done: changed to "two-time", per article style GiovanniSidwell (talk) 23:10, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Geo Coordinates for Little Caesars Arena

The coordinates given are apparently those of the old Palace at Auburn Hills. The correct coordinates are 42.341111, -83.055 per https://geohack.toolforge.org/geohack.php?pagename=Little_Caesars_Arena&params=42_20_28_N_83_3_18_W_type:landmark_region:US-MI Lotterdata (talk) 02:36, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Good eye. Apparently when the other parts of the Pistons' entry were updated to account for the move to Little Caesars, they didn't update the coordinates.

Which gets me thinking. Why do we have the coordinates in the first place? oknazevad (talk) 12:52, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

The corresponding tables for MLB and NFL have them too. I found them useful for a project that finds hypothetical divisions that minimize the total intradivision distances. I had other sources for each league but wanted to check against one that was (mostly) more up-to-date. Lotterdata (talk) 16:45, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

@Oknazevad: In my opinion, listing coordinates is nothing more than WP:NOTCATALOG. In addition, most times the corporate headquarters of the team is in a completely different place than their main arena. – sbaio 17:42, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

A good point. I don't think they're meant to serve as coordinates for the teams, but in lieu of listing addresses for the arenas. A few years back there was a couple of editors insisting on adding coordinates to everything despite the lack of meaningful coordinates on some topics (like trying to have one coordinate point for a transcontinental highway), so it may be a holdover from that. But I still think they're of limited use and anyone wanting the exact location of an arena can click the link to the arena article. I don't think losing them here would be a detriment to article quality. oknazevad (talk) 19:38, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree, I feel a bit useless info. Just tacked on to a table. If someone was curious, they could easily get the same info by clicking the arena page and seeing the location in the infobox.

Or is there a way to 'hide' the LAT/LONG behind the globe icon so the coords are neatly placed off to the side and now taking up so much visual space? Like a 'globe' icon inside the Location column after the city name? Moonraker0022 (talk) 16:20, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

I've been wondering this myself too. For nearly every other league, the columns are used to list Head Coach. Who comes to this page looking for arena coordinates over head coaches? Hawksfan7358 (talk) 04:00, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Looming NBA Free agency clarificatoin.

The annual edit/revert season is among us and with free agency starting at 6:00pm EST tonight, I thought I'd come hear to clear up the logistics for angsty editors (like myself...).

Tonight, and over the next week, we should see many very reliable, yet not official, reports of players "planning to" and "have agreed to" free agency deals. This will of course also happen with trades usually being broken by Adrian Wojnarowski and Shams Charania. These reports are very reliable, and the wording is very key in determining the likelihood of the scenario. While it is very likely that the moves stated clearly and confidently by these high level reporters are much more likely to come to fruition than not, we have seen scenarios where deals have fallen through due to medical concerns, not making a specific deadline, or even just a change of decision during moratorium.

With this prefaced, if we have a hard time updating the lead and info-box of players during this time, I think it is important to note this information in the Professional Career sections of a players timeline while specifically mentioning that it was "widely reported" or something along those lines. I feel that until is officially announced, the timeline should be updated with the new team and information while the info-box and lead could remain the same. RichieConant34 (talk) 15:46, 30 June 2023 (UTC)