Talk:Never again

Never again has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: May 11, 2020. (Reviewed version).

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A fact from Never again appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 29 May 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that U.S. presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Obama vowed "never again" (memorial pictured), but genocide took place during each of their presidencies?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2020/May. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Never again.

Wikipedia

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 20:37, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

)

"Never again" memorial at Treblinka

ALT0:... that Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Obama vowed never again (pictured), but genocide took place during each of their presidencies?
- ALT1: ... that several United States presidents, including Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Obama, have promised that the Holocaust will happen never again (pictured)?
- ALT2 ... that "never again" (pictured) has been invoked to justify terrorism as well as against "the glorification of base, ugly, dark violence"? Source: https://www.jta.org/2018/03/08/united-states/never-evolved-holocaust-slogan-universal-call-fill-blank
- ALT3:... that it is debated if "never again" (pictured) refers specifically to a second Holocaust or whether it means opposition to all genocides? Source: same
- ALT4:... that despite the promise of never again (pictured), genocide has continued to recur since World War II?

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Berger des Nuages

Created by Buidhe (talk). Self-nominated at 14:36, 6 May 2020 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: I prefer ALT0 but all work HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 21:41, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Never again/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: CaroleHenson (talk · contribs) 07:53, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, it would be my honor to review this article. My approach is to review each section, make minor edits as I go (links, punctuation, etc.) to save us both time, and then evaluate the article against the GA criteria. Feel free to edit any changes you disagree with. I will start on it in the morning.–CaroleHenson (talk) 07:53, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Buidhe, I probably won't be able to do much on this until tonight. Just as an FYI.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:07, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, there's no deadline! b uidhe 18:13, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction

The content in the introduction is good.
It would be better to have a bit more summary information, like a bit about the origins / first use, UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, popularization by Meir Kahane, etc. — so that the introduction has two paragraphs.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:57, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the updates to the intro.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:19, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Origins

This book has a chapter on [1] the Masada poem with the line "Never again shall Masada fall". There is information about the historic and political background, meaning, perception, Masada representing Zion, etc.
I think two or so sentences will helps set the historical context and lead into the Holocaust discussion in the next sentence. (i.e., how do we manage all acts of suppression, discrimination and exile leading up to the pinnacle of evil, genocide?)–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:36, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent, looks good, thanks!–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:20, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding In postwar Israel, the behavior of Jews during the Holocaust was unfavorably contrasted with the behavior of the defenders of Masada.[1][2] - could you expand on that a little. In what way was their behavior unfavorable?
- Done

Excellent, looks good!–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:11, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I added a link to Israel#After World War II for post-war Israel
Great job on the second paragraph.
In the last sentence, can you add a few words about the way that "never again" was used or its significance in It was used on Israeli kibbutzim by the end of the 1940s, and was used in the Swedish documentary Mein Kampf in 1961.[9]–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:32, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Sadly all the source says is "The phrase was used in secular kibbutzim there in the late 1940s; it was used in a Swedish documentary on the Holocaust in 1961." and I cannot find more information.

Gotcha! Thanks for checking.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:10, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Definition

I changed the quotations marks within a quotation to single quotes.
This section looks good.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:38, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Contemporary usage

I moved one sentence here so that there are examples following that sentence — and a few sentences here to bring home the improper use of "never again" without action to back it up. How are those changes?–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:50, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have no objection. b uidhe 22:56, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Other uses

After Nunca más, I added (never more).–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:55, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just a thought

I wonder if it would be good to have a Popular culture section about anti-genocide poems, songs, books, film, etc. that may have been created with "Never again" as its theme - perhaps something from this query
Another thought is if there are any more examples of organizations that fight to end genocide perhaps something from [2], or books, etc. - like these books [3]

–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:18, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, in my experience "popular culture" sections tend to be a magnet for original research and should usually be avoided. The number of works which use the phrase would be very long, and primary source uses of the quote by politicians and such without analysis would be a very long, indiscrimate list, which would be better suited for wikiquote. It doesn't help that the phrase is invoked in a wide variety of contexts which are not necesarily related or even referencing the use as discussed by RS (see image).

This article is about the phrase, we have a separate article prevention of genocide which covers the organizations whose mission is preventing genocide. b uidhe 23:01, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. Makes sense.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:14, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

Comments

The article is very well-written, conforms to MOS guidelines, with properly formatted citations to reliable sources. There is no evidence of original research. (1a, 1b, 2a, 2b, 2c.)

Please disambiguate Frontline in citation #7.

The copyvio report identified quotations and titles of organizations. (2d)
The article covers the major aspects without going into to much detail. (3a, 3b)

There are a couple of places where I have suggested the addition of a bit of clarifying information. I also thought it might be nice to have a Popular culture section and a section about ways in which people have wrote about ending genocide or organizations that were established to never again have acts of genocide.

The article is neutral and stable. (4, 5)
The images in the article are properly tagged, relevant, and with proper citations. (6a, 6b)

–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:35, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your edits. Looks good and passes as a good article!–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:15, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Buchenwald photo

The third and fourth lines of the message in the photo of a sign at Buchenwald are just barely legible, despite that part of the photo being overexposed. The text is (with original spelling and punctuation): "Form the Antinazifront!/Rembember the Millions/of victims Murdered by the Nazis/DEATH TO THE NAZI CRIMINALS". The word "death" is not entirely clear, but seems correct.

It may be desirable to include the third line in the caption, because it completes the sentence that begins "Remember the millions". I didn't make any edits, though. Roches (talk) 19:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Roches, I made the change here, with a cited source for the message on the sign.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:47, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Page protection

Due to the recent edits by IP users (uncited content, improper headings, etc.), I have requested temporary page protection at Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Never_again.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Per this version [4], the page will be protected for several days.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:27, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

'Nunca Mas' in Argentina is cited in a context missing the background

When mentioning the use of the term 'Nunca mas' (Never again) in Argentina, there are two significant facts missing which render the whole section too vague: 1) The term was the title of an elaborate examination report, in which the Forced Disappearance of about 8,000 people during the military dictatorship from 1976 to 1983 was proven - they had 'disappeared' from life due to secret abduction and subsequent extrajudicial killing (=murder) by semi-legal/covert government forces. This was examined in 1983 after the fall of the military dictatorship by the National Commission on the Disappearance of Persons (CONADEP). 2) Thus, the term is strongly tied to the complex of the (summed up, numbers differing in literature) about 25,000-30,000 dead 'Desaparecidos' (The Disappeared). The complex of the Argentinian 'Disappeared' or span. 'Desaparecidos' hence must also be cited in relation to the use of 'Nunca Mas' there. To not be too critical: The text now may be seen as a strong generalisation of the use of the term in Argentina - however, in this case the details are important imho. Pittigrilli (talk) 22:52, 6 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nazism vs. fascism

I reverted this comment that changed Fascism to Nazism in two places. I see that the edit summary says: "Fascism (as conceived by Giovanni Gentile and practiced in Italy under Benito Mussolini) does not include antisemitism among other exclusionary beliefs as a core tenant of it's ideology."

My concern is whether this means to say that we should get rid of Nazism - but fascism is okay.

Perhaps the link should be to a definition of fascism, perhaps the one by the Holocaust Encyclopedia.–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IP is wrong because the political prisoners were against all fascism including Mussolini's variety (which less antisemitic than Nazism, but the fascist government still passed anti-jewish laws) (t · c) buidhe 03:23, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Buidhe is the expert here so their comments rule. I think a problem, though, is also that Nazism is a kind of facism, so to frame the issue as Nazism and not mention fascism limits the scope of the problem.

I added the Definitions_of_fascism#Holocaust_Encyclopedia to fascism. There are a number of definitions, and Mussolini's is not anywhere close to an appropriate definition for the context of this article.––CaroleHenson (talk) 13:56, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]