Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity/Archive 15

This is an archive of past discussions about Nikola Tesla. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 10

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Archive 13

A Proposed Compromise (Serbo/Croatian OR Separate Nationality and Ethnicity)

(I originally posted this on the main article but then I realized that's not allowed, so I reposted it here. Sorry for the disturbance I'm new to editing Wikipedia!)

Dear Associates of Wikipiedia and/or fellow Peer Editors and Reviewers of the Nikola Tesla Wikipedia article;

I am very well aware that the issue of Nikola Tesla's ethnicity has been discussed and debated to death (I am Croatian after all, so it is customary to hear arguments like that very often), however I wish to make a case for a compromise regarding his ethnicity I have not really seen being thrown around a lot;

Why not declare Nikola Tesla as "Serbo-Croatian", instead of just "Serbian", just like the general language group?

While I personally am Croatian, I am not denying that Nikola Tesla has Serbian ethnicity, as many other Croatian people do, and therefore I can understand why the Serbian people wish to also declare him as Serbian. There is primary evidence presentable for both sides, hence why I want to propose this subtle change that will appease both parties.

Alongside that, the first few lines of Nikola Tesla's Wikipedia simply describe him as "American-Serbian" without making the distinction between Nationality and Ethnicity, which are two separate things. The second part of my proposal would be to, in order to give any incoming readers more immediate accurate information, separate the two.

It is a very peculiar debate that the issue of Tesla's ethnicity has created, and I hope that my request can maybe encourage some healthy changes to this page.

Thank you for taking the time to read my change request, and have a good rest of your day. Runsva2001 (talk) 19:53, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but Wikipedia content must be supported by WP:reliable sources, we can't just make up our own "compromise". The sources say Tesla was of Serbian ethnicity. --Chetvorno^TALK 19:50, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

I also concurr with you when you say that "Wikipedia content must be supported by reliable sources", and I believe that there is no better source here than Tesla himself: Tesla's 1934 Tribute to King Alexander, former monarch of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_New_York_Times/1934/10/21/Tribute_to_King_Alexander, where he states "I was born in Croatia.", and shortly follows up with: "The fact is that all Yugoslavs-Serbians, Slavonians, Bosnians, Herzegovinians, Dalmations, Montenagrins, Croatians ans Slovenes - are of the same race, speak the same language and have common national ideals and traditions." From his own words, alongside the other source(s) listed underneath by user "Bilseric", Tesla had both Serb and Croatian heritage. He was a Yugoslav patriot, making tribute to all the people of Yugoslavia. Again, I am not denying he has Serbian heritage, a lot of other Croatian people do, but to brand him simply as "Serbian" when he never even lived in Serbia proper is wrong in my opinion. Feel free to disagree however, I like to see opposing points of view! Runsva2001 (talk) 00:16, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Also, if you want to change the wording, you should know that the subject of Tesla's nationality and ethnicity has been argued about on this page continuously for 14 years, and has long been settled. The current wording was established by an RfC 8 June 2014 and has stood against many efforts to change it, and been confirmed by RfC 12 December 2018 and an RfC 11 July 2020. --Chetvorno^TALK 20:04, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based on consensuses. We can make a consensus that is of course based in sources. Here's one source [1]. It denotes Tesla as a Croatian-born electrical engineer. The consensus on Wikipedia can go one or the other way, however to state that Tesla was Croatian-born is perfectly correct and supported by sources. In my opinion the battleground around Tesla exists because of editors who are not willing to accept a different opinion then theirs, even though it is supported by sources. Bilseric (talk) 20:36, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

The RfCs that you have linked are not related to the subject this editor is writing about. Two of them are related to Tesla birthplace and the third is about whether Tesla's ethnicity should be kept in the article lead. What the editor here is purposing is not to change Tesla's birthplace nor to remove the ethnicity from the lead, but to denote Tesla ""Serbo-Croatian", instead of just "Serbian"". Or if I maybe rephrase to "Croatian-born" as the source I posted says. Bilseric (talk) 20:40, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Simply because previous attempts at changing the article resulted in failure doesn't mean that the change is not truthful. As history has shown many times, people often have to scuffle hard for the truth to unravel. Runsva2001 (talk) 00:19, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi IP. I hope I can help. There are sources stating Tesla as Croatian scientist as well as Serbian. Wikipedia has unfortunately become a battleground were it has to be one or the other. Tesla was as well Austrian and American scientist. If you wish to pursue the this, the best option is to open a RfC. Here's a link on how to open [2]. However, I don't think that it will do much help if you don't manage to engage new editors. Editors who have gathered around this article already have their opinion set. Bilseric (talk) 20:36, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Wow, it is very interesting to hear all of this. As I said, I’m completely new to editing Wikipedia articles, this is my very first time posting any sort of comment/discussion.

It is very regrettable to hear that such a consensus hasn’t been reached. I was actually born in the same town that Nikola Tesla went to high school at, there are museums and commemorations everywhere in Croatia for him. I would have assumed that the sole fact that he was born in Croatia, had Croatian/Austrian citizenship and papers and had lived there for many years would warrant at least a sole mention of Croatian identity, but I guess I’m missing some kind of point here if it was already debated over so many times.

Thank you all for taking the time to read my inquiry! Runsva2001 (talk) 20:54, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Although a consensus shouldn't work that way, Wikipedia articles often state whet the majority wants. Unfortunately, majority of editors on this article have strong objections to mention Tesla's Croatian identity. That is why I said that new editors should be engaged. Here's an example. For a long time the article stated that Tesla lived in "Kalovac, Croatia", as this reputable sources state (among others) [3],[4]. Then one day an editor came and declared that Kalovac was not in Croatia and removed it from the article. No one complained or pointed out to sources, nor anyone complained about synthesis. Bilseric (talk) 21:12, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Well, over the next few days or weeks I will gather as much evidence and as many sources as I can find that argue for both sides. If I find enough and if I deem it worthwile, I will attempt to submit my request and present all my evidence (which will include evidence that Karlovac is indeed in Croatia :)). I will gather evidence for both sides, as I am arguing in favor of "Serbo-Croatian". I am hoping that the sheer amnount of evidence for both sides will convince at least some people that it is woth mentioning both ethnicities when describing Tesla. Feel free to help out if you're interested if you wish to support my point of view! Runsva2001 (talk) 08:35, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Wow, that is pretty crazy. I was born and raised in Karlovac, so it’s ludicrous to me that something like that would even happen. It seems that the Tesla thread is dominated by editors who strongly argue for Tesla having exclusively Serbian ethnicity.

What I asked for is not to re-declare him as having exclusively Croatian ethnicity, but merely an inclusive rephrasing of his identity. I acknowledge that he is ethnically Serb, and that his family is ethnically Serb, however the fact remains that he was born, raised and educated in Croatia. As far as I know, he has never even been to Serbia in his life. Regardless of his Serbian ethnicity, which I am not denying, I believe he deserves to at least be labeled as “Serbo-Croatian” or "Croatian-born". Runsva2001 (talk) 21:37, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Generally, adding Croatian born (or maybe Austrian-Croatian born) shouldn't be a problem (on any other article at least), as it is supported by both primary (Tesla's own statement that he was born in Croatia) and secondary sources (one of which I posted above) and isn't negating Tesla's Serb ethnicity. I personally don't understand why some editors are trying to negate one or the other identity. Bilseric (talk) 22:06, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm really mainly focusing on his ethnicity label as the inclusive "Serbo-Croatian" instead if just "Serbian", his place of birth I'm not disputing, it is Croatia. Runsva2001 (talk) 23:21, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

The place of birth (and the fact that this is situated within the borders of modern-day Croatia) is already given both in the infobox and in the body of the article. I don't see what else the above is doing, except wasting people's time and perpetuating a dispute actually listed at WP:LAME. Go figure... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:31, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

His place of birth is not what I'm mainly trying to bring attention to, that is undisputed, at least by me. What I proposed was to simply inclusively rephrase his identity as Serbo-Croatian, which I recognize as a separate identity (I believe it is worth it to bring attention to the fact that in 1991 during the Collapse of Yugoslavia, the Serbo-Croats in the broader Croatian region of "Krajina" declared their seccession from newly-independent Croatia, creating a partially-recognized stated by the name of "Republic of Serbian Krajina", on the basis of this separate identity), therefore I do not believe it is fair to classify him as exclusively "Serbian". As stated, he has never even been to Serbia in his life, and has frequently declared that he identifies as both Serbian and Croatian (Tesla's 1934 Tribute to King Alexander, former monarch of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_New_York_Times/1934/10/21/Tribute_to_King_Alexander, where he states "I was born in Croatia.", and shortly follows up with: "The fact is that all Yugoslavs-Serbians, Slavonians, Bosnians, Herzegovinians, Dalmations, Montenagrins, Croatians ans Slovenes - are of the same race, speak the same language and have common national ideals and traditions."). Also, simply because the previous attempts to change his identity failed, doesn't mean that he is purely "Serbian". If it is true that the majority of the editors wish to classify him as exclusively "Serbian", I would love to hear their reasonings for this lack of inclusivity. Runsva2001 (talk) 23:21, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Also I need to make a very important distinction regarding Tesla's Wikipedia first paragraph. This thread lists both Tesla's Nationaility AND Ethnicity, which are two separate things. Nationality is the citizenships which he had, while ethnicity are his genetic and familial roots. His nationality was Austrian/Croatian and American, he did NOT have Serbian citizenship at any point, while his ethnicity is mostly Serbian. However, the first few lines of Nikola Tesla's Wikipedia article does not make the distinction between the two, and I believe that it would be a very beneficial thing to simply separate the two. That way, people who read the article can get a far more accurate reading of Tesla right from the get-go, and get the most accurate information. Right now in the Wikipedia page Tesla is simply described as "Serbian-American", which completely negates any other citizenship he had apart from the American one. So, why not separate the two to make it more accurate? Something along the lines of "...was of American and Austrian/Croatian (I would be fine with either one) nationality and of Serbian ethnicity." (I would also be fine switching the order around, if that is a problem for anyone). Since Tesla clearly states on several occasions that he considers himself both Serbian and Croatian, in my opinion it would not be appropriate if we simply negate that part of his nationaility. Let me know your thoughts. Runsva2001 (talk) 07:15, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Differences between Serbian and Serb.

Serb is a term related to all Serbs, but Serbian is related to Serbia. It's correct to say that Tesla was a Serbo-American scientist born in today's Croatia. --Savasampion (talk) 17:21, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@Savasampion: Please, present WP:reliable sources that call him "Serbo-American". Vanjagenije (talk) 23:53, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Is Nikola Tesla Serbian or Croatian?

Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla § Is Nikola Tesla Serbian or Croatian?

per Talk page and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus. --Vanjagenije (talk) 13:48, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

This is a subject that is heavily debated. The EU claims that he is Croatian and I think it should be worth it to write in this article about the debate and some arguments for both sides. I also think that because of this, and that it has no real "right" definitive answer, that it shouldn't say right in the article at the start that he is a "Serbian-American" as this is not necessarily true and is the first thing that comes up when people google Nikola Tesla. Perhaps we could do "Serbo-Croatian-American" or similar? I deeply apologize if my thoughts do not necessarily make complete sense as English is not my first language and writing academically is new to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TrueParf (talk • contribs) 23:22, 16 December 2020 (UTC) Blocked sock:Filipz123 .

You may want to read/fallow the note at the top of this page re: Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 00:28, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

I assumed he was American. Just like my ancestors quickly declared themselves to be Australians soon after arriving in this country. HiLo48 (talk) 02:10, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

He was naturalized. However, he was boron and lived in Croatia which was a part of Austrian Empire at that time. His Serbian ethnicity is a 2nd derivate. He had no connections to Serbia. 89.201.191.2 (talk) 00:34, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

We have discussed all of this. It was not "2nd derivate". Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 11:14, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

What do you mean? He was not born in Serbia nor had any connection to Serbia. His birthplace was Austrian Croatia. He was Austrian by nationality. 89.201.191.2 (talk) 21:10, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Sources disagree with you [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]. If you offer nothing more than opinion then this discussion is useless. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 22:19, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Disagree with what? Tesla had no connections to Serbia. Tesla was an Austrian citizen from birth. Not only him, but his parents as well. Later he became a naturalized American. That's why I said it's a second derivative. How far should we go to someone's lineage to declare him of a certain ethnicity? We might as well call him African, as we all supposedly originate from Africa. BDW , sources repeat themselves. Partly due to a lot of effort and money from Serbia to represent him as a Serb and nothing else after the breakup of Yugoslavia. But if you look those sources, they simply don't deal with his ethnicity. Simply mentioning it without any footnote or any other primary source. Even on this page , his ethnicity is elevated to the lead, while the fact that he was born, lived and educated in Croatia is barely mentioned. It's not one or another, it's both, however some people will hear none of it, even if it came directly from Tesla's mouth, when he said: "I was born in Croatia". Now, I'm sure the dedicated guardians of the article will again jump and try to convince others how Tesla did not know where he was born or simply ignore the discussion. 89.201.185.204 (talk) 00:12, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

This discussion is indeed useless. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 02:20, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

According to your opinion. I find it very useful on the other hand. You don't have to participate, but why are you trying to force your narrative to others with statements like that? How would wikipedia look when everyone would leave comments like this on each discussion they find useless? 89.201.185.204 (talk) 02:49, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

To answer the editor who started the discussion. It depends. It shouldn't be a matter of Croatian or Serbian, but a matter of correctly stating facts. Tesla was born, lived and partly educated in Croatian part of Austrian Empire. His native language was Croatian, as stated on his high school diploma. He nor his parents had any connection to Serbia. His ancestors were Serbian, although that's a statement without any primary source or any secondary source dealing with the matter. In any case, he and his parents were certainly citizens of Austrian Empire from birth. Later he became naturalized American. During his life he was strongly pro-Yugoslav and had considered all south slavs to be one nation. Yugoslav nation. Now it depends on your viewpoint. Should you consider him to be Serbian because of far away lineage, or Croatian because his early part of live is associated to Croatia, or American because the 2nd part of his life when he was an American. Or maybe Austrian because there technically wasn't Croatian citizenship in Austrian Croatia, but only a common Austrian for the whole empire. 89.201.185.204 (talk) 02:37, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Tesla's nationality and ethnicity has been argued about continuously by nationalists for 11 years on these pages. All the above arguments have been made many, many times before, see the 13 huge archives at top. On Wikipedia, editors are not allowed to draw their own conclusions, like inferring Tesla's nationality from his high school diploma or his parents' citizenship, that is called WP:SYNTHESIS. The current wording is supported by reliable sources. It was established by an RfC 5 July 2013, and for 7 years has withstood all arguments against it, and was confirmed overwhelmingly by another RfC 12 December 2018 and the 11 July 2020 RfC above. --Chetvorno^TALK 10:39, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Everyone has their own head and can use multiple sources besides Wikipedia. If someone is interested how the article text was formed, then talk page will provide more info. For me personally, Tesla's statement that he was born in Croatia is much stronger than any Wikipedia article. I think that he was smart enough to know where he was born. But because we can't use primary sources on Wikipedia in that way, I have provided secondary sources. However, to me personally, that primary source is stronger than any secondary source, because we saw how secondary sources are often unprecise. Some for instance state Austro-Hungary instead of Austrian Empire. They simply don't deal with that matter in particular. 185.18.61.160 (talk) 22:50, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

After over a decade, there is no need for any more discussion. As noted before, this has been discussed many times and the lede has it most correct: Tesla was a Serb[ian]-American scientist, who was born in Croatian territory of Austrian Empire. The two most important identifiers are, and should remain, Serbian and American. --Jesuislafete (talk) 22:00, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

You say that there's no need for further discussions, however every pro-Serbian editor here would disagree with you that Tesla was born in Croatian part of Austrian Empire. What are the "two most important identifiers" is purely a matter of perspective. I'm sure many would agree with your and many would not. 185.18.61.160 (talk) 22:50, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Telling me what other's would say is irrelevant to this discussion. And yes, the identifiers are a matter of perspective, and it has been agreed that his ethnicity/heritage plus the citizenship of the country he spent the majority of his adult life's work would be the main identifiers. Many people from various ethnic groups, whether they be Serb, Croat, Polish, Russian, etc. were born and raised outside the borders of their ethnicity's country; it doesn't make them any less part of that ethnicity. --Jesuislafete (talk) 23:19, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

I think it is relevant, that's why I mentioned it. You say that no discussion is needed when obviously people disagree on the matter. I was never a proponent of "my opinion is correct, thus no discussion is needed" approach. Consensus doesn't mean the exclusion of other side. Which identifiers are important for someone, is their own decision. I assume that many people would be very surprised to see that someone else, in some Wikipedia talk page, has agreed what their perspective should be. I never said that makes them "any less part". I said that's a matter of perspective/opinion. I'm sure that many Americans consider Tesla to be an American scientist. That's a valid viewpoint, he spent 2nd half of his live in America. I'm sure many Croatians consider him to be a Croatian scientist. He was born, lived and educated in Croatia. And I'm sure many Serbs consider him to be a Serbian scientist. He was by ethnicity a Serb. There's no need to downplay someone's viewpoint and elevate one own's. This is an article on Tesla, however the subject matter is general. I see that Rade Sherbedzija is mentioned on English Wikipedia as "Croatian actor". I don't know what makes him any differently treated than Tesla. They both are Serbs born in Croatia. I'm mentioning it because you say that someone had agreed about something, while we can see that on other Wikipedia articles someone else had other perspective and agreed in a different way. What is most important is just a matter of opinion. So to claim that Tesla was Serbian-American scientist , but was not Croatian scientist, is not correct. Both is correct as it's a matter of perspective. The perspective of editors editing this article went in one way, but that doesn't determine that their perspective should be forced to others. So, let's please stop demonizing people with other perspectives. 185.18.61.160 (talk) 00:15, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Again, this has been discussed ad nauseam and falls under the WP:CON: The result might be an agreement that does not satisfy anyone completely, but that all recognize as a reasonable solution. The article is currently reasonable. You are also claiming a lot of things that are not true:

♦ "So to claim that Tesla was Serbian-American scientist , but was not Croatian scientist, is not correct" — I never said that.

♦ "...you say that someone had agreed about something, while we can see that on other Wikipedia articles someone else had other perspective and agreed in a different way" — it was not "someone", but an entire group of people including seasoned Wikipedia editors, who spent over a decade discussing the matter before you came in. Reread Chetvorno's text from above: "Tesla's nationality and ethnicity has been argued about continuously by nationalists for 11 years on these pages. All the above arguments have been made many, many times before, see the 13 huge archives at top. On Wikipedia, editors are not allowed to draw their own conclusions, like inferring Tesla's nationality from his high school diploma or his parents' citizenship, that is called WP:SYNTHESIS."

♦ "...that doesn't determine that their perspective should be forced to others. So, let's please stop demonizing people with other perspectives." A) After much discussion, a consensus is the exact opposite of force. b) Nobody is demonizing anybody.

I have a few suggestions if you are open to them: 1) get yourself a username, 2)learn more about how Wikipedia works, 3) Let go of the idea Croatia has a greater "claim" to someone because you wish they were mostly/only Croatian. That is the same mindset of nationalist Serbs who claim everything from Croatia is Serbian and Croatians are Catholic Serbs. Or nationalists who claim Bosniaks are islamicised [insert ethnicity here]. Funny that nationalists never fight to claim less desirable people as their own (e.g. war criminals). --Jesuislafete (talk) 00:36, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

1. I never said you said that. That's the interpretation many editors are pushing through the article text, while the reality is that the "Serbian-American" construct is present in the article because the most of reliable sources are stating it that way, as established through RfCs. That interpretation in no way excludes the one that Tesla is Croatian scientist, as there are other reliable sources describing him that way.

2. What I stated is perfectly correct. One group of editors, on this article, agreed to use "American-Serb" nomenclature , while other group of editors on Rade Serbedzija article used "Croatian actor" nomenclature, while both persons are born as ethnic Serbs in Lika, Croatia. Neither one or the other is correct/incorrect, but a matter of perspective. People who claim that Tesla was not a Croatian scientist, because a group of editors had agreed to go with the other perspective in this article, are misinforming other editors. No one here can agree which of multiple valid perspectives the editors should take. That's the reader's decision. What was agreed, is which one is stated in the article body.

3. Many editors here are using the consensus to push their viewpoint as the only valid one. The consensus choose one of several valid viewpoints and there's no reason to demonize people who support a different viewpoint which is equally valid by calling them "nationalistic editors". All of the following viewpoints are equally valid : "American scientist", "American-Serbian scientist", "Croatian scientist", "Croatian-Serbian scientist", "Austrian scientist", "Austrian-Croatian scientist". What numerous discussions produced, is a consensus to use one of the listed ones, with the reasoning provided in the consensus explanation. 185.18.61.59 (talk) 02:13, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

PS. I'm familiar how Wikipedia works. Have I said anything incorrect? I never said that Croatia has "greater claim". I said that some people might find that perspective as prevailing one. That's their decision and no one here on Wikipedia can tell them they are wrong or "nationalistic" because one of multiple valid perspectives entered the article body (while in Rade Serbedzija case the opposite perspective was chosen). I also said that there's no need to demonize someone else with another viewpoint. No one is nationalistic. It's perfectly normal that Serbs will point his ethnicity, while Croatians his birthplace. Let's finally after 11 years stop demonizing those two viewpoints by calling them nationalistic. No, it's not funny or inconceivable that people that people won't point out less desirable people as their own. It's perfectly normal. 185.18.61.59 (talk) 02:22, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Again, a decade worth of discussion has already happened; the archives exist for everyone to read. I can guarantee that any erasure of the current format will be reverted. --Jesuislafete (talk) 05:56, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Serbian-American SleeZ 13:38, 24 December 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity#Is Nikola Tesla Serbian or Croatian? (talk • contribs)

I agree with the ip. This is really well put and something unseen on this page. Of course Croatians might view Tesla as a Croatian inventor since he comes from Croatia. That's a valid point of view and in no way diminishes that Tesla was also a Serb and an American inventor. I hope the constant arguments could finally stop and that everyone here will have more respect towards each other and their viewpont. Bilseric (talk) 02:09, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Please use the facts. Which was his nationality/citizenship? Put proofs. I found his passport on the German Wikipedia https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla#/media/Datei:Putovnica_Nikola_Tesla_01082.JPG It's stated: "Landes Regierung: Kön. kroat.-slav.-dalm." Which means Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia, Dalmatia. They are all regions of today's Croatia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ayyven (talk • contribs) 10:31, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Tesla was never in Serbia or was he ever in touch with Serbia, he was born and he said number of times he is a Croat I feel insulted that the Wikipedia page writes him as Serbian. This must be corrected.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.168.121.240 (talk • contribs) 8:00, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Saying that Nicola Tesla was Serbian is like saying that Russians are Serbians. He was born on in nowdays Croatia and was Ortodox which doesn't make him Serbian - he only shared the religion same sa Romanians, Macedonians, Montenegro, .... Why should he be Serbian ? Why is he not Mazeconian or Montenegrish, or Romanian, Greek ... ? Is a Religion what defines a person ?

Nicola Tesla is originating from a Austro-Hungarian Region Croatia/Dalmatia now-days Croatia. Austro-Hungaria has an amazing influence on Tesla - he was studying in Graz, but there where also the once that where laughing on this unconventional ideas. Also the later Croatian Regime was not kind to his Familiy - but it's just a Regime and doesn't change his Heritage.

Saying that he is Austro-Hungarian is the same as saying that Johan Sebastian Bach is not a German Compositor but a Kursachsen Compositor.

Tesla also said that his ancectors where Croatian Nobelman in 16. century.

I simply dont's see a single evidence that he is Serbian except that he is ortodox and spent a few hows in Belgrade to receive an Award.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8e0:2043:3900:80b0:e0cb:6099:aa83 (talk • contribs) 8:00, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Here is what Tesla himself said in a telegram dated 26th of May 1936 [10] sent to Croatian politician Vladko Macek. Translation: "Thank you very much for honoring me. I am equally proud of my Serbian heritage and my Croatian homeland. Long live all Yugoslavians" --Slaven0 (talk) 20:31, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Serb is a term related to all Serbs, but Serbian is related to Serbia. Croat is a term related to all Croats, but Croatian is related to Croatia. It's correct to say that Tesla was a Serbo-American scientist born in Smiljan, Austrian Empire ( today's Croatia). Why did I say that he was born in Croatia (and not that he was Croatian). Because then Croatia did not exist as an independent and sovereign state.--Savasampion (talk) 17:32, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

That telegram was proven to be Photoshop years ago, it's even noticeable if you zoom in. Tesla never said those words, someone else said them to Tesla and Tesla wasn't bothered to contest it, so people thought he agreed with it completely. Serbian editors always throw around every wiki policy that suits their need to justify their reasoning and weak sources. But the one policy they never pull out of their hat is [11]. Either because they completely lack common sense, they maybe even think that rule would only show that they are in the wrong,or it really is true that Serbian politicians waste an extravagant amount of their taxpayers money on stuff like this, all in all, they obviously always avoid it. For example, to say Tesla was Austrian is absurd, to say he was Serbian with such weak sources supporting it is completely devoid of common sense. The man was born in Croatia, spoke Croatian, openly stated his love for Croatia, but a reader of the article would think he was a Serb-American-Austrian with Croatia being an unimportant part of his life, if even mentioned at all. The whole "He was also Austrian" shtick only comes about when a Serbian is confronted with common sense that "He was Serbian" has no true validity in real life(only in Serbia and on a website like this it does,sadly, but that is because this article is taken over by Serbian nationalist admins-or even possibly paid Serbian nationalist admins). Every Wikipedia editor that has their mother tongue listed as "Serbo-Croatian" is 100% a Serb. A made up Yugoslav language with the sole purpose to mask the fact that Serbian was born out of Croatian. If you check the profiles of every editor in this thread arguing that Tesla was Serbian, they all have Serbo-Croatian, some plainly have Serbian as their mother tongue. If they spent a week in Croatia, with Croatians that speak real Croatian(not the internet variant[the only place Croatians speak Serbo-Croatian so that Serbs can understand]), they would be completely lost half the time. It's blatant that Wikipedia needs to address this ulterior motives that only spread misinformation and distort reality on this article. I'm aware that Wikipedia as a whole has this revisionist issue. This website is becoming worse and worse, to the point of being outright untrustworthy,unusable and plain wrong, getting overtaken by interest groups around the world so they can portray a false image about something that could then give them an "upper hand". Still, Serbs working so hard to have Tesla listed as a hardcore Serb on this website, only proves that they have not much else of value to add to their own name. You are working against yourselves Serbs, because if Wiki has a major crackdown on interest groups in the future, this article will stick out as a sore thumb and only further derail your reputation in the eyes of the world(at least the wiki world), and you will lose trust in the eyes of the wiki community, because there isn't a single Serbian wiki editor that is opposing this article about Tesla as it is now.

(Wikipedia has many policies or what many consider "rules". Instead of following every rule, it is acceptable to use common sense as you go about editing. Being too wrapped up in rules can cause loss of perspective, so there are times when it is better to ignore a rule. Even if a contribution "violates" the precise wording of a rule, it might still be a good contribution. Similarly, just because something is not forbidden in a written document, or is even explicitly permitted, doesn't mean it's a good idea in the given situation. Our goal is to improve Wikipedia so that it better informs readers. Being able to articulate "common sense" reasons why a change helps the encyclopedia is good, and editors should not ignore those reasons because they don't reference a bunch of shortcut links to official policies. The principle of the rules—to make Wikipedia and its sister projects thrive—is more important than the letter.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.252.198.230 (talk) 05:24, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Proposed nationality change

I will not edit the article but this statement that he was a Serbian-American is blatantly wrong. He was born in a CROATIAN village to a CROATIAN mother and a Serbian father. Even his quote "I am proud of my Serbian origin and Croatian homeland." proves this. I have NEVER seen or heard a single Serbian, even the ones who live in Croatia, call Croatia their homeland! Why are the admins indulging in these Serbians' delusions. Even the Croatian variant of the EURO currency will have Nikola Tesla on it. This has to be changed immediately to Serbo-Croatian American or just Croatian American, even the Croatian wikipedia states this and it is my humble opinion that facts on every Wikipedia should be equal, universal, and most importantly - CORRECT. Charizardmatok (talk) 17:55, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

And if you cross over the border and go ask the Serbians, I assume they'll say Tesla was Serbian. Neither of the inferences you are drawing are anything but subjective points of view, and Wikipedia is written according to what the most reliable sources say, not according to the whims of individual editors. Your comment is full of opinion, but empty of sources. In any case, what other language Wikipedias do (especially the Croatian one, which IIRC until rather recently had issues with some far-right revisionism: there's a report on that somewhere on Metawiki) is not pertinent here. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:04, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Tesla had spent a grand total of 31 hours in Serbia during his lifetime. And you're telling me sources say he's Serbian? Even the sources you have listed under that don't confirm that. Stop enabling Serbian delusions. Charizardmatok (talk) 18:47, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

WP rules on ethnicity, nationality and place of birth

WP style rules state the following on ethnicity, nationality and place of birth:

Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability.

Thus, the rules state that in general both ethnicity and nationality-place of birth should not be mentioned, but can be. So why is only ethnicity (Serbian) mentioned in the lead, but nationality/place-of-birth (present-day-Croatia) is not mentioned in the lead? In a telegram to the Croatian political leader, Vladko Macek, Tesla described himself thusly – "I am equally proud of my Serbian family and my Croatian homeland. Long live all Yugoslavs.” Thus, he clearly considered himself to be of Serb-Croat-Yugoslav origins Thhhommmasss (talk) 21:14, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Tesla's nationality and ethnicity has been argued about continuously by nationalists for 11 years on these pages, see the 13 huge archives at top. Tesla's nationality, Austrian Empire, is mentioned in the lead. The current wording was established by an RfC 5 July 2013, and for 9 years has withstood all arguments against it, and was confirmed overwhelmingly by another RfC 12 December 2018. The mention of ethnicity in the lead was confirmed by an RfC 11 July 2020. --Chetvorno^TALK 03:21, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

From what Tesla has written, he most likely would not have described himself as Austrian later in life. Ethnicity and nationality are to a large extent arbitrary, particularly in the Balkans. In the 20th century people in former Yugoslavia could have changed their citizenship and nationality 5 to 6 times during their lives, without moving a single inch. Given the arbitrariness, I think what Tesla himself stated should indeed matter. He considered himself of Serb ethnicity AND Croat nationality, so I believe both should be mentioned, as well as the fact he was Austrian-born, and an American. WP rules state that ethnicity-nationality should be mentioned only if it is relevant to the subject's notability. As an engineer, his fame had practically nothing to do with his ethnicity/nationality - he would've been equally famous if he were of any other arbitrary ethnicity-nationality. Where it does enter, and where his nationality-ethnicity is indeed brought up (other than in endless Balkan-nationalistic fights over the same) is that he is held up as an example of someone who could transcend these deadly divides, by explicitly declaring he was BOTH Serb AND Croat, instead of requiring him to be just one OR the other as nationalists try to claim him. Thus, the only way I see his ethnicity-nationality coming into play in any notable way, as per WP rules, is precisely through this fact of stating he was both (in fact by all accounts, Tesla would've probably had an extremely dim view of those Balkan nationalists, on both sides, who to this day still try to claim him exclusively) Thhhommmasss (talk) 03:56, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Based on the above, I think one small step in the right direction would be to replace the current first sentence in the second paragraph, i.e.: "Born and raised in the Austrian Empire", with "Born and raised in present-day Croatia (then part of the Austrian Empire)" This formulation has ZERO opinion in it, mere fact. As I said, other than the fact that he proclaimed himself both Serb and Croat, his ethnicity and nationality were totally irrelevant to his notability (on the contrary, hailing from obscure Balkan lands when discrimination existed toward southern and eastern Europeans, may have hindered his rise to notability, thus he may have become notable DESPITE these origins, certainly NOT BECAUSE of his origins) Thhhommmasss (talk) 20:02, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Btw, while I agree that Tesla was of Serbian ethnicity, and defined himself as such (while also speaking of his Croatian homeland), the cited references for him being solely Serbian-American are not strong. The first citation is Burgan, an author of children’s books (including “What is the Story of Batman”), published by the children’s book publisher, Compass Point. While he may be a fine children's author and acceptable source on the origins of Batman, it's ridiculous to cite him in a WP article on Tesla, thus this should be deleted. Second source is a 2013 BBC article, which mentions Tesla as an "ethnic Serb", but also speaks of his Croatian homeland, and specifically states "that Tesla symbolized Croatia's and Serbia's shared past", so that goes exactly to point that he was of both Serb and Croat origins. The third source is also an online publication, this time RFE, which I myself cite on current events. However, I do not consider this to be the most authoritative source on Tesla's 19th century ethnic origins, particularly since the referenced article is a tongue-in-cheek piece about claims that Tesla's remains are sparking devil worship in Belgrade. Thus, I would delete this source as well 00:50, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Some long standing editors here, have the attitude that "Tesla had nothing to do with Croatia" (and that's a direct quote from one of them), which isn't in any way based in sources. Thus, it shouldn't surprise you that the article reflects that opinion. Tesla's homeland was Croatia and he was a Serb by ethnicity. In 10 years of following this discussions, I haven't seen any relevant discussion negating the fact that Tesla was a Serb, but negating that Tesla was born in Croatia (despite so many primary and secondary sources, even Tesla himself stating "I wad born in Croatia") has become a normal state of mind here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.201.169.226 (talk) 19:33, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Serbo-Croatian language?

In the article, it's written Tesla spoke Serbo-Croatian. It seems Serbians are trying to add them to anything possible. From his school grades, we can see he studied and spoke the Croatian language http://www.croatianhistory.net/gif/science/tesla/zeugnis1873_1885ocjene.jpg "Kroatische Sprache" means "Croatian language"

Can you put proof he spoke Serbian and knew the Cyrillic alphabet? If not change known languages from Serbo-Croatian to the Croatian language. If yes, add 2 languages Croatian language and Serbian language.

On Wikipedia we are not allowed to base content on our own conclusions; such as concluding from a copy of Tesla's grades what language he spoke; that is called WP:SYNTHESIS. Also Wikipedia content cannot be based on WP:primary sources like the grade report. The sentence on what languages Tesla spoke, like all information in the article, reports what WP:reliable sources say, in this case Tesla biographies. See the little numbers at the end of sentences? Clicking on them will take you to citations giving where the information comes from. --Chetvorno^TALK 15:46, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Here is more proof the language he spoke was Croatian. Latin alphabet and jekavian dialect: https:/upwiki/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Telegram_Tesla_Macek_0108.JPG https:/upwiki/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Telegram_Nikola_Tesla_Mestrovic_01081.JPG

Again, Wikipedia is not the place to discuss your WP:original research on Tesla. Perhaps you would like to write your opinions in a document on Wikibooks? It has no prohibition on original research. --Chetvorno^TALK 18:37, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

This can be cited then http://www.croatia.org/crown/articles/10649/1/Nikola-Tesla-distinguished-Croatian-American-inventor-and-his-high-school-education-in-Croatia.html Croatian translation of the matriculation exam of Nikola Tesla kept in the Karlovac Gymnasium in Croatia, containing the names of the members of the exam committee. The first column at the bottom contains the names of the subjects at the exam, while the second column has the corresponding marks obtained. In the third line of the table at the bottom, Nikola Tesla's Materinji jezik (i.e., Mother tongue) is indicated as hrvatski (i.e., as Croatian language). The fourth column of the second last table indicated without any doubt Hrvatska (i.e., Croatia) as his DOMOVINA (i.e., as his homeland). His birthday is indicated as the 2nd November 1856, which is a mistake: the correct date of his birth is 10th July 1856.

I'm sorry, that's not even close. A clearly WP:POV Croation nationalist website is not a WP:reliable source, we don't accept WP:primary documents like the claimed exam as sources, and if we did inferring Tesla's languages from them would be WP:synthesis --Chetvorno^TALK 02:00, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

So you're saying the documents provided there are falsificated? I don't see how it is a nationalist website.

If you read multiple discussions above, no amount of sources would be enough. For instance I have provided primary sources where Tesla has himself said that he was born in Croatia and this user among others gave me the same treatment, that we can't use primary source. After I provided secondary sources, of course they still weren't convinced. 89.201.185.102 (talk) 23:34, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Serbo-Croatian was practically a non-existent linguistic term around the time of Tesla's birth. As the documents show, Tesla indeed spoke Croatian language as he was born and lived in Croatia. 89.201.185.102 (talk) 23:29, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Please go read and understand WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, WP:TE, and WP:RS. Wikipedia is not a place for biased Croatian chauvinism, or any chauvinism of any kind.

Please explain why would the article written by a researcher where he uses documents as evidence which proofs that he spoke the Croatian language and identified himself as Croatian be chauvinistic? I will post again

http://www.croatia.org/crown/articles/10649/1/Nikola-Tesla-distinguished-Croatian-American-inventor-and-his-high-school-education-in-Croatia.html

134.195.196.6 (talk) 13:14, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

The point is quite the opposite. There's no secondary source that is speaking of "Serbo-Croatian" language in around the time Tesla was born. As, I said, it's a non-existent term for that time period and should be removed from the article. The same went for "Serbian-Orthodox" which was removed from the article and replaced with "Eastern-Orthodox". 5.43.160.12 (talk) 00:26, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

The current "reliable source" that Tesla spoke (non-existent) Serbo-Croatian is a book by journalist John J. O'Neil. I don't see from where did the author get his sources. This should be investigated more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ayyven (talk • contribs) 11:04, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Nationalist nonsense. It matters not that the term did not exist yet per your view, linguists massively/overwhelmingly state that Serbo-Croatian is the common spoken language of Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia and Montenegro. The various standardized languages are political constructs. You speak the same language. 50.111.55.190 (talk) 18:31, 6 October 2022 (UTC). OakleyHeys

It matters per Wikipedia guidelines. Tesla spoke Croatian language, and the later linguistic construct can't be introduced into this article. There's a separate article about Serbo-Croatian language. This article is about Tesla, and mixing contexts is what we call synthesis. Relevant sources, both primary and secondary state that Tesla spoke Croatian language, and so it should be stated in the article. There was a special RfC concerning Tesla's religion and for the same reasons it was changed from Serbian Orthodox to Eastern Orthodox. Because the term Serbian Orthodox is non existent for 19th century Austrian Empire. Bilseric (talk) 13:56, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 November 2022

This edit request to Nikola Tesla has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Hi. Tesla wasn't Serbian-American. That statement is wrong. He was Serbian-Croatian as his father was Serbian and his mother was Croatian, and he himself was born in Smiljani which is present-day Croatia. This is very important, please change this as soon as possible. Boaaob (talk) 21:48, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Not done: Please see frequent discussions in the past. Did you see the big pink notice at the top of this page? Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 22:27, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Thread moved here from Talk:Nikola Tesla per Talk page banner and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus.--Chetvorno^TALK 19:00, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 October 2022

This edit request to Nikola Tesla has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change "Serbian" or "American" to "Croatian" 2A05:4F44:C10:3D00:803D:8D49:5AF4:3ACB (talk) 13:02, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Not done: Please see frequent discussions in the past. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:14, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Thread moved here from Talk:Nikola Tesla per Talk page banner and 16 June 2015 RfC consensus.--Chetvorno^TALK 19:06, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 December 2023

Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla

– Vanjagenije (talk) 00:02, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

This edit request to Nikola Tesla has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change Nikola Teslas nationality to Croatian-Serbian-American. Nikola Tesla repeatedly stated his love for his, quote “hrvatskoj domovini i srpskom rodu", which in translation means “Croatian homeland and Serbian roots”

https://faktograf.hr/2022/02/17/je-li-nikola-tesla-bio-srbin-ili-hrvat/ 85.226.244.61 (talk) 23:13, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Not done: Please see frequent discussions in the past. Vanjagenije (talk) 00:02, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Really unsure why this is such a problem.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Tesla is Croatian-American. He was not born in Serbia, or anything that would be considered Serbia. He did not speak Serbian, his official documents state he is from Croatia. He has identified hiimself as Croatian-American.

It's ridiculous that this is an ongoing issue. 151.111.138.53 (talk) 21:19, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I can explain. Wiki page lists Tesla as "Serbian-American" because the most secondary sources put emphasis on Tesla's ethnicity. Wikipedia is just summarizing secondary sources. This in no way negates that Tesla is also "Croatian-American" when you put emphasis on nationality/place of birth. You can see it on Einstein's Wiki page where the emphasis wasn't put on his ethnicity. He's listed as "German-born". The problem isn't with one or the other qualification, but with some people here on talk page, which use one qualification to negate the other. I don't think you should be bothered by this summary that was done on Wikipedia. Tesla's Croatian origins are still well known. You know...some people here even went so far to write that Tesla had "no connections to Croatia" or to claim that Tesla didn't know where he was born when he stated that he was "born in Croatia". When someone says that Tesla was "Serbian-American" , thus not "Croatian-American" is just trying to use ethnicity-based qualification for their agenda. Both are correct and one can't negate the other. Of course that in Serbian people would put more emphasis of ethnicity, and in Croatia to Tesla's place of birth/homeland. I personally don't see why both qualifications wouldn't be stated on the wiki page, as both are supported by sources. The best example is wiki for Rade Šerbedžija. He's listed as Croatian and Serbian actor. Bilseric (talk) 20:10, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

In categorization, ethnicity is mentioned first and then nationality. Serbian-American, in which Serbian would be his ethnicity/origin and American being his nationality/place of residency for the majority of Tesla's life. Croatian was not his ethnicity, or nationality as you mentioned it to be, as Croatian was part of Austria-Hungary at that time. Mentioning Austria-Hungary as his nationality could be fitting, but when an individual has more than one nationality it is important to look at other factors. For this case, Tesla lived in the US for the majority of his life and was his place of death. It was also the place of origin to all his inventions. I think it's quite logical why "American" is mentioned as his nationality, hence also why most sources mention him as Serbian-American. --Azor (talk). 20:16, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Citizenship in 19th century Austrian Empire was complex topic even back in those days. The legislation and the practice have changed multiple times during the 2nd part of the 19th century. There are numerous cases of disputes with the institutions that individuals had to determine their citizenship . What worked in the practice is affiliation to the local municipality. After 1880 a new law put in order the presumption of "Hungarian-Croatian" citizenship of all born in the lands of "hungarian crown". There are ambiguities on how that citizenship was called, but the affiliation certainly went towards "Croatia-Slavonia", as the local governemt was issuing documents such as "domovnica" or "certificate of nationality" and passport. It can be seen on Tesla's passport that it was issued by the "Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia". For Tesla at least, it can be seen who had issued his passport and where his affiliation went. As I said Wikipedia summerizes sources and indeed there are sources naming Tesla as Croatian scientist. This is factually correct and in no opposition to name him as American, or Serbian-American or even Croatian-American as some here on Wikipedia are trying to represent. Why one of those classifications was chosen of Wikipedia , I explained earlier. I think that most literature that are listing Tesla as "Croatian" scientist are doing so because Nikola Tesla was born in the Croatian part of the Austrian Empire, which was pretty diverse, so they "summerize". Well, I say Croatia because it's a direct quote from Tesla. Of course we wasn't born in the "Republic of Croatia" which is the full name today. However, Croatian constitution today is stating that today's Croatia derives from the former Kingdom of Dalmatia-Croatia-Slavonia. It's one and the same entity, whether independent or not is irrelevant. The naming had changed throught years. The most common name is just Croatia. That's way Tesla had himself said "I was born in Croatia" , although at that time Croatia was a part of Yugoslavia. Bilseric (talk) 19:28, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

This matter has been an ongoing topic for years and arguments about Croatia's political independence in details does not make any difference. Croatia was never an independent nation during his lifetime and can therefore not be classified as his nationality. Nationality is chosen by the individual's legal citizenship. He held Austro-Hungarian and American citizenship, respectively. As for Tesla's wording, he never explicitly said "I was born in Croatia", but he did mention him being "equally proud of his Serb origin and Croat homeland" in a quote during the time of Yugoslavia. However, I don't see how that is him stating his opinion on the matter. Him choosing to move to the US at a young age, and live there until his death, seems rather convincing on which country he considered his nationality. --Azor (talk). 19:40, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

The citizenship in Austian Empire, and later in Austro-Hungary was set by a number of legislature acts from 1848 until 1880. Austro-Hungary was an union of two sovereign states, there was no Austro-Hungarian citizenship. Both Austrian and Hungarian citizenships had existed. This was defined by the Austrian-Hungarian settlement. In the similar way Croatian-Hungarian settlement defined political status of Croatia (Croatia-Slavonia) within the land of Hungarian crown. From that point on, legislature was common "Hungarian-Croatian", executive branches were separated. This is why Tesla's passport was issued by the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia. Although the legislature was common, "Hungarian-Croatian" citizenship wasn't solely determinative. The distinction was put on the 2 political entities. This is directly determined by the Croatian-Hungarian settlement which had defined citizens of Croatia-Slavonia as a separate political nation. Nikola Tesla being one of the most notable individuals of that nation. For instance the naming used in the legislature act from 1871 was "Croatian-Slavonian citizenship".

Tesla had indeed said that he was born in Croatia in his tribute to king Alexander. Tesla's letter was published in New York Times and you can easily see it in their archive. The direct quote is I was born in Croatia. He wrote the letter himself on English and sent it to New York Times. You may argue that he didn't know where he was born, or that he wasn't telling the truth, however historical facts, I just mentioned, would disprove you. There are a number of legislature acts defining the political status of Croatia-Slavonia at that time.

There's no doubt that Tesla had high regards on to his American citizenship. I don't think anyone here is disputing that. Well, actually it's funny what is actually being disputed here, and by whom. I'm not familiar with any relevant party disputing Tesla's ethnicity. I would understand that Serbs would have a problem with it as they claim that Tesla was a Serb (and indeed he was), however what is funny here, Tesla's nationality and the place of birth can only be in dispute between states that were formerly a part of the Austro-Hungary. I'm not seeing Austria or Hungary, claiming Tesla "belongs" to them. What difference it makes for the Serbian side when Tesla can't be "Serbian" by nationality and he can't be born in Serbia. What motivation do Serbian side has to have him "belong" to either of the other sides...namely Austrian, Hungarian or any other , rather than Croatian, apart from animosity towards Croatia? Even the media often portraits this as a dispute between "Croatia and Serbia". This is not the case at all, nothing is in dispute between Croatia and Serbia. Ethnicity is not in dispute at all. On the other hand Serbia has nothing to do with Tesla's nationality or the place of birth, and those aren't disputed by Austria or Hungary and Croatia. And I'm quite literal here when saying "Serbia", because it does happen that Serbian officials are protesting when Tesla is portrayed as a Croatian scientist. Most lately, when Tesla was portrayed on Croatian euro coins. Bilseric (talk) 21:51, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

This is, yet again, details from your behalf. We could go on and on and discuss about the degree of autonomy the regions within the Empire developed later in his life, as if that is gonna make any relevant difference. Even then, his nationality wouldn't be described as "Croatian" but rather "Croatia-Slavonian". In terms of nationality - Serbia has no relevancy, but American is, without a doubt, the best suited categorization. As for the the general Serb view on the categorization of Tesla, I fully understand the upset. What motivation does Croats have to claim Tesla? He was born in lands that is today Croatia yes, but throughout history you did not seem that motivated to claim the other Serbs living in todays Croatia. A Serb is "Croatian" when he becomes famous, but an inferior individual who should be sent to concentration camps when he is the average citizen. Croat editors has also, throughout many years, argued against his Serb ethnicity on Wikipedia as well. The current categorization of his ethnicity and nationality (Serbian-American) is most likely never gonna change, despite any detail-arguing from the Croat editors. That's all. --Azor (talk). 11:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I was actually using this secondary source [12]. It lists many legislature acts, as primary sources. The wiki page doesn't need to change. It's perfectly correct. What I'm just pointing out, is that "Croatian scientist", is as well perfectly correct and equal. Some people think that putting "Serbian-American" on Wiki page somehow negates "Croatian-American". I'm well familiar with all the "reasons" from Serbian side why Tesla isn't Croatian, including the one you just repeated, but I ask again, what difference does it make for Serbs to "have him either way", when his nationality isn't Serbian? If he himself said that he was born in Croatia. If you can see that his passport was issued by the "Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia". If his highschool degree says his mother language is "Croatian". It's just silly that some people come to the discussion here on wikipedia with the claims that "Tesla had nothing to do with Croatia", and somehow they don't neglect to mention that they are not from "this area" , like somehow it makes their opinion more credible than Tesla's statement that he was born in Croatia. It's even more ridiculous when seeing that Serbia as a country is protesting this historical facts. Bilseric (talk) 17:55, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I am noticing how you are cherry picking sources. You talk about his educational papers, more explicitly his "Croatian mother tongue" from his primary education paper. Yet, you don't even dare to mention his educational papers from his time in university of Graz, which explicitly mentions his nationality to be Serbian. Let me also remind you that these university papers were issued during the time of Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia.

I can also see that you have spent a ridiculous amount of time continuously arguing in the discussion regarding the categorization of Tesla. In 2017, you were arguing about the same alleged quote from Tesla about where he was born, just the same way you are doing now. So no, I don't believe you a second when you say "the article is perfectly correct and I'm just pointing out". For God's sake, drop the stick. --Azor (talk). 19:57, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I've just posted a lengthy source that deals explicitly with the question of nationality in Croatia and Slavonia from 1849-1880. This is the secondary source and it mentions not a single word about Serbian nationality. Bilseric (talk) 20:25, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

His academic paper is a primary source and does indeed show Serbe Nationalität (i.e. Serbian nationality). ^[1] --Azor (talk). 21:33, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

What is certain here is that he wasn't Serbian by nationality. This question is not even in dispute. What's in dispute, is whether he was Austrain, Hungarian or Croatian by nationality, since the question of nationality wasn't fully defined until 1880. The source I posted, although in Croatian, is the best one yet, that was posted here on the topic of nationality in Austro-Hungary in the 19th century. I can't say exactly why the mentioned document says "Serbian" under nationality, but there are no doubts that Serbian nationality wasn't defined in the legislature acts in Austro-Hungary. It would be good to find secondary source that would explain this document. Without that, there's not much we can do with it on Wikipedia. I'm just speculating here (not that it matters for Wiki discussion) , but one of the possible explanations would be that , being the 19th century, and nationality not being fully defined as we understand it today, people often were naming their ethnicity as nationality. For certain, people living in Croatian part of the Empire weren't considering themselves to be Austrians, although the act from 1849 was defining only Austrian citizenship for all citizens of Austrain Empire. This will soon change when reality reaches the legislature ,but even before that, when the question of citizenship wasn't defined as such at all in the legislature, people of Austrain Empire weren't considering themselves as one nation. This will soon be evident through Austro-Hungrian settlement and Croatian-Hungarian settlement, which had defined separate political nations and is also visible from the source I posted, which is widely speaking of, sometimes confusing way, of determining someone's nationality in Austro-Hungary from 1849-1880. I think this is the most plausible explanation. To repeat, what is evident from the source , the question of nationality was in the process of being defined in the 19th century, thus it's hard to go by legislature which was changing during that period. What is certain is this quote from the source, "After 1880 a new law put in order the presumption of "Hungarian-Croatian" citizenship for all born in the lands of "hungarian crown"". Also, what is notable from the source is that this, legislature act wasn't aligned with reality on the ground , so much so that subsequent legislature acts are separating Croatians from Hungarians. Some acts are using "Croatian-Slavonian" terminology. Some are using "sons of the homeland", because Croatians couldn't be elected to the Hungarian Parliament for example. Tesla couldn't have been elected to the Hungarian Parliament for instance. He could have only be elected to the Croatian Parliament. Not to prolong...I gave you my speculations on your primary source, I don't know whether you would like it or not, but there's certainly much to digest from the source I posted, but not the fact that Serbian citizenship was non-existent in the 19th century Austro-Hungary. And again, what I tried to summerize, although it's a lengthy post, is that "Croatian scientist" is equally correct as "Serbian scientist" or "American scientist". There's no point to be "unsatisfied" because Wiki page chose one over the other, Wikipedia is just summarizing sources. Bilseric (talk) 12:47, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

As per MOS:NATIONALITY If a subject migrate from from a country to another country and became the citizen of the that country where he was made notable of his activities - we would put their citizenship of the country they migrated to. So Tesla is an American in the lead section. Cassiopeia talk 22:19, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

MOS:NATIONALITY has caveats: "unless relevant to the subject's notability" Tesla inventor history includes a transition form Europe to America, and "editors should consider how reliable sources refer to the subject" most reliable sources refer to him as "Serbian-American". Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 14:54, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. The only problem with this article is that some people trying to negate that Tesla being a Croatian Scientist is equally correct. Wikipedia choosing one formulation for the article doesn't in any way negate other formulations that are equally correct. Wikipedia just summarizes sources , and indeed the sources are mentioning Tesla's ethnicity. Bilseric (talk) 13:27, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

No they don't. Most refer to him as "American". It should be in the lead page just American per MOS:NATIONALITY, and make it more neutral. Andrew012p (talk) 18:03, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

It would be, but it seems to me that some editors here emphasise Tesla's ethnicity to be more than it is. Bilseric (talk) 20:50, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

References

^ Uwe Schichler,Josef W. Wohinz. https://openlib.tugraz.at/download.php?id=5fbe2f740ec5f&location=browse]" p. 23.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 15 January 2024

This edit request to Nikola Tesla has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

It should be stated that Tesla was Croatian-Serbian and American.

Tesla was born and raised in Present day Croatia and had Croatian citizenship in the Kingdom of Croatia within the Austrian Empire. All of Tesla's documents and educational certificates were written in Croatian and notarized by the Kingdom of Croatia. Tesla visited Serbia for 1 whole day his entire life.

Tesla stated he was equally proud of his Croatian homeland and his Serbian ethnicity thus making him Croatian by nationality and Serbian by ethnicity. 2607:FEA8:4EA1:3A00:5E2D:CF19:F1EB:8ACF (talk) 02:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Not done: This has been discussed extensively in the past; see the various discussions in this page's archives. SkyWarrior 02:37, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Ridiculous. So someone who was born, raised, educated in Croatia and in Croatian language and says he was proud of his Croatian homeland doesnt get to be labelled Croatian. So being Serbian simply by being of Orthodox faith and visiting Serbia for 1 day. What kind of nonsense is this. Direct me please to the archive so I can read the misinformation. 2607:FEA8:4EA1:3A00:5E2D:CF19:F1EB:8ACF (talk) 02:42, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

The 15 archives are listed at the top of the page. The current wording was established by an RfC 8 June 2014 and has stood against many efforts to change it, and been confirmed by RfC 12 December 2018 and further supported in the discussion of RfC 11 July 2020. --Chetvorno^TALK 17:48, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

@Chetvorno hmm, now that you mention the RFCs, in the 2014 one we had a pretty clear consensus to have a mention of Croatia or the Military Frontier for the birthplace, but this was since removed from the infobox, and the image caption has a weird phrasing in the caption that implies the village is only now in Croatia which isn't quite right. I think there's an influx of complaints not just because these readers have an axe to grind, but because we've also had subtle changes made that trigger them. --Joy (talk) 12:01, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

BTW, the 2014 RFC is littered with tendentious text from an editor who has long since gotten indefinitely blocked for abuse. I'm not sure if there's a good way to address that, as WP:DENY doesn't mention talk pages... --Joy (talk) 12:06, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

If I'm looking at the correct RfC, I'm seeing that the consensus is "Smiljan, Austrian Empire (modern-day Croatia)", the advice is against mentioning Military Frontier in the lead. Yes, it seems that , at present, the infobox is missing (preset day Croatia) as it is stated in the text. Bilseric (talk) 20:26, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the confirmation, amended now. --Joy (talk) 22:38, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Provide truthful info

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nikola Tesla is croatian, and he does not have anything to do with Serbia or the USA as ethnicity. He was born in Smiljan, a Croatian town. He studied in Graz and Karlovac, therefore not having connections with Serbia or the USA. Or say that he is croatian-serbian if you dont want to give up misinformation but he is not in any way american. Reepdrake (talk) 12:59, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is aggregating the secondary sources, and they do indeed mention that Tesla was Serbian by ethnicity. This in no way should contradict that he was also Croatian by "nationality". Well, it would be imprecise to say "nationality" as the 19th century legislation had not defined nationality as we know it today. He was also naturalized American citizen thus this has to be mentioned. Bilseric (talk) 20:36, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

So if i go to live in Finland does that make me finnish? I agree on the fact that he was a citizen of the USA but him just living in the USA does not make him in any way American. Reepdrake (talk) 21:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

The definition of being American is being a citizen of America. You are confusing it with being of American descent (eg: American Indian, or possibly European or African or other descent but your family has been in America for a few generations). Citizenship and descent can be quite different things. Stepho talk 00:13, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but he wasn't just living in USA, he was a naturalized citizen from 1891. I don't think that's in dispute by anyone. Also, the word "descent" isn't really applicable here. It's usually describing someone's ancestry lineage. Bilseric (talk) 18:58, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nationality

Started by a now-blocked editor, whatever still needs to be discussed should continue separately. --Joy (talk) 07:46, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

...was a Serbian-American inventor??

Imagine that British own a big territory and one of the territories are today's France. Imagine that territory is divide on three parts and speaks French language and have French schools and even British acknowledge that territories.

Now imagine that you are born in that territory and your father and mother are born in that territory too. Your father tells you that you have Serbian roots. Now you walk through the city and tell everyone that you are a Serb. But your born papers says otherwise. Does it make you a Serb because you are telling people that you are a Serb or your papers do?

Now take a look at Nikola Tesla story: In 1856, Croatia was part of Austro-Hungarian empire as autonomous Triune Kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia. Even Nikola Tesla passport confirmed that.

Nikola Tesla parents were born also on today's Croatian territory. Nikola Tesla spoke Croatian and went to Croatian schools

Nikola Tesla was only one day in his life in Serbia. So if I'm born in Australia and my grand grandfather was from Serbia, am I a Serb then?

If Croatia didn't existed on that time, how did Croatian language and Croatian schools existed? Even Nikola Tesla said that Croatia is his homeland.

Please remove Cyrillic spelling of his name and remove Serbian-American inventor. He can be only Croatian-American inventor, nothing else.

Not mentioning his Croatian descent before the word inventor is offensive. If you have any proof/papers that he is Serbian, I'll apologies. Endy Angello (talk) 09:44, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Please learn the difference between nationality and ethnicity. (This is not supposed to be news to anyone interested in the WP:ARBMAC topic area.) --Joy (talk) 10:00, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Joy So ethnicity is more valid than official documents? Endy Angello (talk) 10:12, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

No, what the secondary sources say is more valid than any one of ours' interpretations of primary sources. --Joy (talk) 10:20, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Joy If secondary sources are official documents then I'm wrong. But if they are not, and your sources is only what someone said, then you are wrong. Endy Angello (talk) 10:30, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Please see WP:SECONDARY for more information on what we mean when we say secondary sources. If you notice the article fails to reference such proper secondary sources in this regard, please feel free to point it out. --Joy (talk) 12:14, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Endy Angello If you want to change the wording, you should know that the subject of Tesla's nationality and ethnicity has been argued about on this page continuously for 17 years (see the 15 huge archives at the top of the page) and has long been settled. The current wording was established 10 years ago by an RfC 8 June 2014 and has stood against many efforts to change it, and been confirmed by RfC 12 December 2018 and RfC 11 July 2020. --Chetvorno^TALK 17:49, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Chetvorno A: If I and my father are born in Australia and have ancestors from Croatia and I invented a time travel. Should wikipedia write about me: Croatian invented a time travel or it should be: Australian invented a time travel, originating from Croatia?

B: On wikipedia it's stated Will Smith is an American actor. But because you are looking ethnicity first then it should be: Will Smith is an African-American actor. Right?

Ethnicity doesn't make you a citizen of that country. Official document makes you.

In this case you should edit all the famous people of U.S.A. as an ethnicity-american.

I'm arguing here that Nikola Tesla can't be Serbian-American inventor because ethnicity doesn't make you from that country. It's official document that makes you.

So please if you are kind and show me official documents that Nikola Tesla was Serbian and I will apologise.

Until you prove me what I'm asking the page should state Nikola Tesla was Croatian-American inventor originating from Serbia if you are eager that much for him to be Serbian. Endy Angello (talk) 18:10, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

The adjective "Serbian" in English usage regularly refers to people's ethnicity, not just nationality, IOW this is not a sole reference to the country of Serbia. That's why e.g. the term "Croatian Serbian" refers to Serb people from Croatia (like Tesla). Technically the term "Serb" would be more precise, but that's just not as common. --Joy (talk) 19:19, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Joy Nikola Tesla (10 July [O.S. 28 June] 1856 – 7 January 1943) was a Serbian-American[5][6] inventor...

And where I can see here the word Croatian as you implied? Endy Angello (talk) 19:32, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Earlier discussions established consensus that mentioning both Serbs and Croatia would be overloading the article. Which is logical, really, as the average English reader, at least from the US, is used to two-word combinations like "Croatian American", "Serbian American", "African American", "Italian American", etc, and people don't generally expect us to go into this much detail. Whoever reads the article beyond these couple of sentences will see Tesla's connections to Croatia just fine. --Joy (talk) 19:39, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Joy You will not enter a word with 8 letters to not overload the article? And the size of the whole wikipedia fits on one USB drive. This is hilarious!

You know, that word that you don't want to edit is a very important word which in this case defines someone's nationality!

As you confirmed in previous message that the word Croatian should be there but it's overloading the page. And now that I assured you that wikipedia will be fine with one more word with 8 letters. I expect that you will edit the article for future readers that maybe read only first few sentences, so they can be informed that Nikola Tesla wasn't only Serbian-American.

If you don't edit this word with only 8 letters, then I would assume that you have political reasons to not edit it and you don't want to better inform the future readers. Endy Angello (talk) 20:10, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

First of all, the argument that opposition here has political reasons is meaningless, because you likewise can be accused of having political reasons for adding this. Secondly, the part about nationality is actually a bit moot, as the citizenship in that case was Austria-Hungary, as the Military Frontier had not been merged back into the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia until 1881. All of this has been discussed already, so you might want to check the archives before spending more time on rehashing this. --Joy (talk) 21:28, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Joy If I'm here for political reasons, then I wouldn't give you proof about what I want to be changed. Read my posts again if you already forgot.

And you haven't given me any proof of official document that proves that he is Serbian.

You and your buddies made some nonsense about his ethnicity and overloading a page if you add Croatian before Serbian-American.

The fact that you stated above is the answer that Serbian in this Serbian-American inventor is the last thing that should be written about him.

It should be like this: Croatian-American inventor that originates from Serbia if you want to bring up his ethnicity.

As both of us agreed that Serbian ethnicity, especially in Croatia are Croatian-Serbians and if Nikola Tesla in any official document wasn't Serbian, then he can't be Serbian-American inventor.

I repeat: your grand grandfather ethnicity doesn't make you a citizen of that country!

Btw, don't worry how I spend my time, because I like spending my time on things that I know that I'm right. Endy Angello (talk) 21:49, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Please feel free to acquaint yourself with the policy on how consensus building works on Wikipedia. I'm done with this "you and your buddies" nonsense. --Joy (talk) 07:51, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

@Joy Yes, you are speaking nonsense through whole conversation and deliberately avoiding to show me a proof that Nikola Tesla was Serbian.

You are acting like that consensus is the final law like we or on some kind of court. You know that court decisions can be overturned even after 20 years, right?

Answer me directly why it doesn't state like this: Nikola Tesla was Croatian-American inventor that originates from Serbia. - And please don't bring up consensus again or overloading the page because that are just bad excuses to not edit it as it should be! Endy Angello (talk) 09:02, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Joy , the citizenship wasn't Austro-Hungarian. Such had not existed and there's a discussion on this talk page that you can read. It is also not correct that Military Frontier was merged with Kingdom of Croatia in 1881. What happened in 1881 is that Kingdom of Croatia returned civil administration to the part of it's territory that was under military administration. Well, in reality the situation was quite more complex, but the point stands that Military Frontier was a part of Croatia at the time of Tesla's birth. This wasn't even in dispute between Croatia and Austria or Hungary. Nor you would ever seen today, Austrian or Hungarian coming here claiming otherwise. Bilseric (talk) 22:38, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

To a modern-day reader, it's weird to claim that it was a Croatian citizenship, when we define the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia as clearly within the empire. If you're referring to the discussion #Really unsure why this is such a problem. with Azorzal, I don't quite like the tone there... at the same time I don't see conclusive evidence either, as the Kosnica (2014) paper doesn't seem to mention anything about the Military Frontier at all. This has been a persistent pattern in these Tesla discussions - this matter of location of birthplace and whatnot is just not mentioned most of the time by Tesla biographers. We don't even know for sure if his high school professor was Martin Sekulić. With so relatively little information about this period of his life, it's no wonder nobody wants to give this argument for mentioning Croatia more any credence, even if it seems kind of just stating the obvious to people from those regions. --Joy (talk) 16:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

It's also weird to call him an ethnic Serb when in those time Serbia also didn't officially existed. You are saying that little information about Croatian period of his life existed. And I'm saying that his Serbian period of his life didn't even existed.

Please stop naming some random book sources as the official one!

Here is the one source for you but you'll never claim it as official because it doesn't benefit your side:

Nikola Tesla loved Zagreb, as the capital of his homeland and had nothing but deep respect for the city. When he visited Zagreb, at the invitation of the then mayor of Zagreb, Milan Amruš, in 1892 he gave a speech in the Zagreb City Hall. At one point he said: “I consider it my duty, as a citizen of my country, to help Zagreb in any way I possibly can!”

(A chapter from the book "Understanding Croatia" by Božo Skoko, that can be ordered on Amazon) Endy Angello (talk) 17:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Endy, it's not weird to call Tesla and ethnic Serb. It is supported by secondary sources. And I'm well familiar with the general opinion in Croatia where no one relevant is claiming otherwise. I'm still not sure what your point should be. I'm well familiar with the statement where Tesla is stating that he is a "son of his land" and naming Zagreb as it's capital. This shows his opinion but can't be the same as stating that the matter of citizenship is determined by his opinion. We also have his statement where is is saying that he as born in "Croatia". I would argue that he was smart enough to know where he was born, but, again, it shows how people had not always followed the official political borders and definitions. I would put forward that Tesla was a subject of Kingdom of Croatia to avoid connotations which come with the term "citizenship". But, not to prolong, you can read my post below and the advices I wrote, maybe that would be better, because I feel we are just throwing random facts and opinions without a goal.Bilseric (talk) 19:32, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

No. It's perfectly fine to use the ethonyms Serb or Croat in the 1880s, because that's unrelated to the status of the countries. I'm sorry, but this is a pretty basic fact, especially as it relates in this contentious topic area (WP:Competence is required). --Joy (talk) 20:33, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

The whole meaning of the word "citizenship" as we know it today can't be applied to the 19th century Austrian Empire and whichever one you put forward it would be wrong. I'm sorry about the tone of the discussion, but I have put forward a very good source which deals in depth with the matter of citizenship in 19th century Austrian Empire. If one is to discuss the subject matter here, this source is a must read. Unfortunately, I understand it's not on English. Sorry, I don't remember what Kosnica paper is and I can't find it with the search. Some time has passed since that discussion and I can't remember all the details. What I'm trying to point out is that having the mentioned source on mind, one could understand why Tesla said the he was born in Croatia or why his passport is issued by Kingdom of Croatia , Slavonia and Dalmatia. This primary sources do have sense and are not just to be disregarded. One would then understand why, from time to time, discussions like this pop out. Bilseric (talk) 19:32, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Discussion continued from WP:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Summary_of_dispute_by_Chetvorno

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Endy Angello: A passport is a WP:primary source. Wikipedia doesn't accept single primary sources as WP:reliable sources to support content (WP:PSTS), secondary sources are required, such as reputable biographies. Tesla wasn't born in Croatia, at the time Smiljian was part of the Military Frontier of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. This is what the biography cited at the end of the sentence in our article says:

"At the time of Nikola Tesla's birth, Serbia and Croatia were part of the huge Austro-Hungarian Empire" Michael Burgan, Tesla: Physicist, Inventor, Electrical Engineer, p.19

Other Tesla biographies agree:

"Nikola Tesla was born an ethnic Serb within the Military Frontier of the Austrian Empire ..." Emory Clark, The Biography of Nikola Tesla
"Tesla was born an ethnic Serb in Smiljian in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At the time a portion of Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian Empire..." Bernard Carlson, Tesla: Inventor of the Electric Age, p.13
"Tesla was born to Serbian parents in what was then the Austrian Empire (now in Croatia)" Encyclopaedia Britannica
"Nikola Tesla was born a subject of the Austro-Hungarian Empire..." Tesla: Life and Legacy, PBS]
"Tesla... was born to Serbian parents near the western edge of the Austro-Hungarian Empire..." Margaret Cheney, Roger Uth, Tesla: Master of Lightning, p.3

--Chetvorno^TALK 19:36, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

@Chetvorno If he wasn't born in Croatia, then why he called Croatia his homeland?

If Croatia didn't exist why he went to Croatian school?

I repeat: your grand grandfather ethnicity doesn't make you a citizen of that country! If you think otherwise then you'll need to change all American famous people articles on Wikipedia. Endy Angello (talk) 19:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

@Chetvorno Btw how do you know that his parents were from Serbia if your source states that Croatia and Serbia was under Austro-Hungarian empire. Then in theory his parents and their ancestors weren't Serbian because your source states that both countries didn't exist at the time. Please...

We all know the history of Balkan and how old Croatia and Serbia are. But you are interpreting your sources how it benefits you and Serbian people without including the other party in this case, a really important one.

I think you forgot to mention that his parents were actually born on Croatian territory and their origins were from Serbia!

And you and Joy both never answered me what's wrong with this and why you don't want to include Croatia: Nikola Tesla was Croatian-American inventor that originates from Serbia. Endy Angello (talk) 20:22, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

JFTR: User talk:Endy Angello#Page blocks. --Joy (talk) 08:28, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Chetvorno, for someone who often references previous discussions, stating that Nikola Tesla wasn't born in Croatia comes quite astray. Quite some, both primary an secondary sources, were posted on this topic to conclude that Tesla's birthplace was "Kingdom of Croatia" (as show, even by sources posted by you). The fact that Tesla biographers haven't put much emphasis to this topic makes some editors state some outright inaccurate claims. This, in no way, should be the reason for editors to "muddy the water" and make false claims. Bilseric (talk) 22:20, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

@Chetvorno actually, now that you mention it, the Burgan (2009) book that you linked says on page 9:

As a teenager in Gospic, Austrian Croatia, Nikola Tesla had seen a picture of the mighty falls.

Likewise, the note on page 19 that you cited ends pointedly with:

Today both nations unite in honoring Tesla's ties to them.

Hence I don't think trying to interpret this source so stringently to somehow preclude mentions of Croatia is appropriate. --Joy (talk) 07:39, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Admittedly, this was posted in context of answering this other user, but even while addressing people who are quite disagreeable, we should pay attention to not go overboard (two wrongs don't make a right). --Joy (talk) 07:41, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

To clarify: talk pages are not for discussion of the subject itself but of the article using policy based arguments

So you can discuss sources, layout, etc but you must use policy or guideline based arguments and just claiming you are right about any issue isn’t sufficient. Note we have various discussion boards, eg WP:RSN to argue whether or not a source meets our criteria. If editors continue to just use this page as a forum I can block them from this page as a partial block. I am not going to discuss content issues here, just behaviour. Doug Weller talk 20:41, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, of course. New users sometimes are not fully familiar with how things work on Wikipedia. Decade and some time ago when I was starting, more experienced editors had to explain it to me, and I hope I have helped a little with my last post. Bilseric (talk) 20:51, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to quote User:Joy's post to your talk page:"Wikipedia talk pages are the place to discuss the content of Wikipedia articles. They are not forums for general discussion about the topic or other topics. Talking about "sides" and what country officials do with regards to a biographical text about a long-dead scientist, while discussing with another editor, is pushing awfully close to engaging in furtherance of outside conflicts."

Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines covers this also."Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions focused on how to improve the article. Comments that are plainly irrelevant are subject to archiving or removal."

Stay objective': Talk pages are not a place for editors to argue their personal point of view about a controversial issue. They are a place to discuss how the points of view of reliable sources should be included in the article, so that the end result is neutral. The best way to present a case is to find properly referenced material.

I've spent far too much time on this page - I have no interest in the debate, just in stopping the disruption which has been going on for years. Sanctions apply to this talk page which can be used to deal with anyone not adhering to our policies and guidelines, including civility, good faith, etc. Doug Weller talk 12:52, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Participants on that subpage must give a policy-based reason why the terms used in the article are incorrect, or their comments will also be removed without reply from that page.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

That's what it says on the main talk page, and it's being ignored. We now have three WP:SPAs, ie single purpose editors, whose only edits are about this issue. I don't have time right now but I'd appreciate anyone else removing comments that don't confirm with this statement about policy-based reasons. I'm open to any other suggestions to stop this behavior. User:Joy, any suggestions? Doug Weller talk 09:37, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Maybe Doug can also take a look all above claims from me and other users and why always the same users don't want Croatia to be included anywhere on the part where we are suggesting that article is incorrect.

Offering random books as a secondary source that claims he was an ethic Serb,

but those books also stated that Serbia didn't officially existed as a country when

Nikola Tesla was born is very obvious dodging to include Croatia.

Then if Croatia is not mentioned, Serbia can't be mentioned either. Mention both countries, or neither one!

It should be:

Nikola Tesla was a Croatian-American inventor that originates from Serbia. Endy Angello (talk) 15:20, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Nikola Tesla loved Zagreb, as the capital of his homeland and had nothing but deep respect for the city. When he visited Zagreb, at the invitation of the then mayor of Zagreb, Milan Amruš, in 1892 he gave a speech in the Zagreb City Hall. At one point he said: “I consider it my duty, as a citizen of my country, to help Zagreb in any way I possibly can!”

(A chapter from the book "Understanding Croatia" by Božo Skoko, that can be ordered on Amazon) Endy Angello (talk) 15:52, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Doug Weller I don't know, we've been rather lax about policing this over the years, but then occasionally instituted comparatively draconian rules, like the existence of this talk page. I don't think there can be any other recourse to this than to require people to WP:CITE sources and enforce general civility rules on a case-by-case basis. For example, you could issue a strict warning to Endy Angello for casually casting aspersions (the "You and your buddies" edit above). --Joy (talk) 16:43, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Doug Weller You could also issue a strict warning to Joy for offending Croatian people and not accepting other sources except sources that only benefits one side/his side here. Maybe you can also teach him that ethnicity doesn't make you a citizen of that Country (then Americans are not Americans) even if random sources claims it. On that note then Croatian books and other sources should be accepted too. I want to include both countries and he and his friends only want one. Endy Angello (talk) 17:16, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

JFTR: User talk:Endy Angello#Page blocks. --Joy (talk) 07:22, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Let's lower the tensions and start over. First of all, Doug Weller, the cited rule wasn't ever enforced, nor I could see a scenario where someone could enforce such a rule. Wikipedia should be open to discussion and have more understanding for new users. I would even opt to remove the cited sentence as there should be no one to decide what's "acceptable" and what's not according to the quoted rule. Endy Angello , you are obviously not familiar how Wikipedia works. You will accomplish very little with such emotional comments and accusations. If you feel something in the article should be changed, you can edit the article yourself as it's not protected. If you get reverted you can open a discussion. However, please note that wikipedia summarizes Secondary sources. You are as well welcomed to post Primary sources, but back them up with secondary (have this in mind Wikipedia:Use of primary sources in Wikipedia). Also, note that article content is based on consensus. It doesn't always end up with everyone satisfied, and it doesn't always list all factual data to have it simplified for the reader to consume. From all the clutter you posted, I don't even understand what you would like to accomplish. If you would like, I advise you to start over and be concise and on the point. Bilseric (talk) 18:55, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bilseric Nikola Tesla was Croatian-American inventor that originates from Serbia. Endy Angello (talk) 19:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I agree, it is correct, and no one should be offended by this definition. Would you also understand that Serbian readers would rather emphasize his ethnicity and have it rather stated as "Serbian-American" inventor? Would you agree that those two are equally correct? Bilseric (talk) 19:36, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

This phrase is not the best, because while it might be technically possible to say that all Serbs originate from Serbia, Tesla's family was pretty much native to Croatia at the time when he lived - they weren't recent immigrants from Serbia or anything like that, they were part of the autochthonous population called the Serbs of Croatia. Both his mother and father were apparently born and raised in Lika, and probably others. We have a sentence in the article saying Tesla's ancestors were from western Serbia, near Montenegro. but we don't know how many generations back that goes. While using the adjective "Serbian" for Tesla might be considered technically ambiguous, it's the phrasing found in most sources and this is not really supposed to be news to anyone.

Ultimately, if you want to figure our how to mention Croatia in Tesla's article that you think would be more appropriate, be aware that that is an orthogonal issue to his Serb origin, one is not supposed to come at the expense of the other. --Joy (talk) 07:30, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Since this discussion has revolved around the actions of a now-blocked editor, does anyone mind if we close it out, and continue whatever needs to be continued in another one? --Joy (talk) 08:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree with your points. It's not the best, but, I think, it was a good starting point to find common ground. I feel that, in the end, we would have agreed that the article is correct and that the changes that editor suggested are equally correct. Bilseric (talk) 22:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

@Bilseric You say the cited rule was never enforced. How do you know? Doug Weller talk 19:21, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

@Doug Weller The 16 June 2015 RfC which instituted this page didn't include any such language authorizing deletion of comments, I think that was just something the editor who wrote the banner added. I'll remove it. I would be in favor of such a rule, though. This is a pretty disrupted article. --Chetvorno^TALK 01:22, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

@Chetvorno Very much so. Notice that my posts are called clutter and emotional by an editor who is a single purpose account, with 263 edits since: February 19, 2017 almost all on this topic including complaints at ANI. See also their reply to an editor 2 and a half years go[13]. Bilseric's 2nd reply is fine, about sources, etc. Their first reply shows a serious lack of good faith including a claim that if an RfC is created it will be closed "before any other uninvolved editor can join to disagree with their opinion."

Here is an example of an RfC Bilseric started that was closed by User:Rosguill who said " All editors that have participated other than the editor who opened the proposal agree that the cited sources motivating the proposal are irrelevant to the issue at hand and that arguments based upon them are some combination of WP:SYNTH, WP:OR, and WP:CHERRYPICKING".[14] There were others. Doug Weller talk 12:40, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, the clutter and emotional mentions were not aimed at me. Apologies to User:Bilseric. Doug Weller talk 16:53, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

citizenship in Austria-Hungary Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@Bilseric in a previous discussion we mentioned a source you linked to:

https://hrcak.srce.hr/en/clanak/183344 Kosnica, Ivan. "The determination of Citizenship in Croatia-Slavonia 1849-1880." Zbornik radova Pravnog fakulteta u Splitu, vol. 51, no. 3, 2014, pp. 697-713.

This is what I meant by the paper which doesn't seem to mention anything about the Military Frontier at all. That's why it's very hard to see how this would be a useful paper to cite in the Tesla article. It doesn't mention the article subject nor does it address the terms used in the article about the subject, so it would require WP:OR from our readers to figure out what we mean, and that would be a policy violation. --Joy (talk) 07:53, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Let's note for the record a few quotes from the document @AzorzaI posted in that previous discussion:

https://openlib.tugraz.at/download.php?id=5fbe2f740ec5f&location=browse Nikola Tesla and the Graz Tech. Edited by Uwe Schichler and Josef W. Wohinz. Graz University of Technology/Library and Archive. 2019. doi:10.3217/978-3-85125-687-1

On pages 14 and 15 they specifically delve into this matter:

Nikola Tesla was born at Smiljan, in the Lika border region (in today’s Croatia) on 10 July 1856. At the time of his birth, this region was part of the Austro-Hungarian monarchy. Accordingly, the following formulation is to be found in his later patent applications (in the USA):

‘Be it known that I, NIKOLA TESLA, of Smiljan, Lika, border country of Austria Hungary, have invented…’ (Patent No. 355, 786, dated February, 9, 1886).

‘Be it known that I, NIKOLA TESLA, a subject of the Emperor of Austria, from Smiljan, Lika, border country of Austria-Hungary, residing at New York, in the county and State of New York, have invented…’ (Patent No. 455, 069, dated June 30, 1891).

His parents were Serbs. He came to see himself as one, even after he acquired American citizenship in 1891.

So this source would actually directly support the mention of Lika in the text (rather than focusing on the Military Frontier). I'll see if I can add it. --Joy (talk) 08:03, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I think it's a good source to gain better understanding about the subject matter. Indeed, it doesn't mention Military Frontier, however, it does state that legal acts are applicable to all lands of Hungarian crown. And, as I argued earlier, in the legal point of view, Military Frontier was a part of Croatia-Slavonia. Maybe I'll send a mail to the author to ask whether he has some other work which deals more with Military Frontier itself (legal status , etc.). Today, I went to search for more sources and I see that the same author has several of them on this subject. Here's one on English Croatian Law on Regulation of Local Citizenship. There are, as well, other good sources from the same author, but I couldn't find them. I could only see the title and the summary. I'll post them if I find them, eventually. Also, note that Tesla wasn't naturalized until 1891, past when Military Frontier was abolished. He was a subject of those legal acts up until 1891. The sources mention that the question of citizenship was determined through a number of legal acts from 1848 up to 1880 (if I remember correctly the law from 1880 was the last one and valid until 1918 and still in use in Yugoslavia). I would think that, after reading the source, it should be understandable why Tesla's passport was issued by "Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia-Dalmatia". After all, the source does state: "...local citizenship was very important element of someone's legal identity in Austria" (page 88)

Yes, I'm familiar with the mention of Lika and "border country" in Tesla's patents. I'm not sure if there's a significant relevance to mention it in the article. Bilseric (talk) 23:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Conversely, I would say that there's no significant relevance to any of these legal statutes to be mentioned in the Tesla article, because they do not directly relate to the biography at hand nor would it be obvious to the average English reader how it indirectly relates to it. If the preponderance of Tesla biographers don't discuss this, neither should the encyclopedia article. Including such a thing would be effectively promoting a historical legal concept, and that's simply a disservice to the readers interested in reading an encyclopedic Tesla biography.

On this note, we have articles about the Triune Kingdom and about the Trialism in Austria-Hungary, where the encyclopedia describes the facts of the matter related to this. We do not, however, go out of our way to add such didascalia to every tangentially related article about topics from the same time periods.

Fundamentally, an encyclopedia describes, it does not prescribe. Please stop suggesting that it does the latter, because this is quickly becoming a waste of our volunteer time and effort. --Joy (talk) 19:11, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Note also that the fact that Tesla had a passport is of similar relevance to the article as the fact that he had a baptismal record - it's a bit of clerical information that won't really interest the average reader. On that note, I'm going to suggest dropping that baptismal record picture in the main talk page now. --Joy (talk) 19:14, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree, sources that directly relate to Tesla would be needed to make an edit to the article. However, this source can help understand subject matter (and as such should be used on the talk page). Tesla sources often don't deal with nationality or ethnicity in great detail. Many of them are even purely incorrect. That's why it's helpful to have a source which specifically deals with the question on nationality, even if not directly related to Tesla.

I'm a proponent of having facts and sources straight and then make a decision whether article would benefit, or it's too complex for the reader, or irrelevant. From that point of view, Tesla's passport and baptismal record are of great value to me, as it this Kosnica source. I hope that I have provided some value and have elevated the discussion to a higher lever.

If someone in not agreeing with the article content, the talk page should provide more info, and one could understand why the article has the content it has. At least, this was my approach and value, that have I tried to provide here.

Everyone has different interests and approach to editing Wikipedia. I do understand you point of view about the article content and value your opinion. I hope that you can see that, after you mentioned Kosnica source, I have tried to find better sources. I have spent several hours doing so and I hope you can value that too. Bilseric (talk) 20:58, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

We're talking about an encyclopedia article about the topic, not a scholarly monography about the topic. It's a summary of general knowledge, not a repository of all relevant material about the topic. For more information, please refer to the policy of WP:What Wikipedia is not, in particular the parts about scientific journals and indiscriminate collections of information. --Joy (talk) 21:15, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

But you have started this whole section called "citizenship in Austria-Hungary Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia". I've just answered. Shouldn't your comment be directed towards yourself, not me? It seems pointless to me that I should "defend" your own section from your own comments. This isn't really topic related and I'll drop out of this discussion. All the best. Bilseric (talk) 22:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[Nikola_Tesla_and_the_Graz_Tech-1] Uwe Schichler,Josef W. Wohinz. https://openlib.tugraz.at/download.php?id=5fbe2f740ec5f&location=browse]" p. 23.

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