Talk:Nubians/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Nubian languages

I added a link to Nubian languages. The reference re language & Nobiin should be clarified with reference to the latter (which is well-written). --A12n 16:02, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Lead sentence

The following discussion is taken from my talk page regarding the lead sentence --SnakeEyeJazz 16:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. We invite everyone to contribute constructively to our encyclopedia. However, Wikipedia is not censored, not even to remove profanity or pornography. Please do not remove or censor information that is relevant to the article, as you did to Nubians. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. - Jeeny ^(talk) 15:58, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The edit you refer to was my removal of the phrase "and are believed to be the first human race" from the the lead sentence of the article, which reads "The Nubians are an ethnic group in southern Egypt and northern Sudan and are believed to be the first human race." This statement was supported by an entry at touregypt.net which states "The Nubians are believed to be the first human race on earth, and most of their customs and traditions were adopted by the ancient Egyptians" whilst citing no sources or naming the author.

This has nothing to do with censorship, but has everything to do with improving the scholarship and quality of writing of the article. I will replicate my edit, this time leaving a note on the discussion page. --SnakeEyeJazz 16:16, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Broad use of term to refer to all black people

My understanding is that, historically, the term "Nubian" has been used to describe all black Africans, in much the same way that "Turk" was used as a catch-all term for Muslims. However, there is no mention of this useage in the article. If I am not mistaken and the useage is/was common, then a mention of it should be added to the article. Also, it would be interesting to see if this is true only of English-speaking regions, or whether other parts of the world have referred to blacks using their word for Nubians. I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that in the Arab world all blacks are commonly referred to as Nubians, so if anyone could verify that it would be good.
Static Sleepstorm (talk) 09:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Complex discussion. You need to look further than what modern popular views might understand as Nubian, black, Egyptian, Kemetic, or African. Egyptian glyphs describe the known population of Africa, what area of Africa they knew, as consisting on three major groups - Lybians, Egyptians, and Nubians. Keep in mind these aren't racial groups. And this grouping is for that particular time and/or dynasty. As demographics change, wars, and foreign influences impact areas, people view themselves differently.

See wiki article Racial characteristics of ancient Egyptians. This includes a glyph depicting groups.

You know what I find interesting, you cannot have an 'Out of Africa' evolution theory while at the same time denying Africa influence throughout Africa and the Middle East. If anything, we need to be consistent.

That's just my point of view. -Spencer,Leon 17:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Just as a logical point, humanity might well have evolved in Africa and spread from there across the globe without African culture even developing, let alone having a pervasive influence throughout the region. That said, Nubia and Ethiopia did have extensive trade links and influenced Egypt and Arabia extensively.

On the original point, no, Ethiopia ("land of the burnt faced people") was the broad term in Greek; Libya in Latin (apparently originally from an Egyptian tribal name); al-Sudan ("land of the black people") in Arabic. "Nubian" being used as a synonym for "African" comes from America in the 60s as far as I know; still, the idea deserves inclusion. -LlywelynII (talk) 14:24, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Endonym(s)

On most articles for ethnic groups, in brackets after the name is first stated the endonyms and other common exonyms are given. Does anyone know what Nubians are called in Arabic or in the Nubian languages? The Arabic-language wikipedia appears not to have a page on Nubians, so that doesn't help.
Static Sleepstorm (talk) 09:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I asked at the wordreference forums (http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=787781) and apparently "Nubian" in Arabic is نوبي (nuubi). I shall add this to the page. - Static Sleepstorm (talk) 23:37, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

At least in Nubiin the Nubian name is Nobiin. -LlywelynII (talk) 14:24, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Where do Nubians live?

Where do Nubians live today? Around the whole globe? Which are the top ten cities, and how many Nubians in each? Which are the top five countries, and how many Nubians in each? -96.237.2.78 (talk) 12:38, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

They've been around a -long- time. But as the article says, self-identified, Nubian-speaking Nubians mostly live along the upper Nile. -LlywelynII (talk) 14:24, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Religion?

Nubians are no more likely to be Coptics than they are to be Scientologists. Virtually all Coptics in Aswan are of pure Egyptian descent, with no admixture from Nubians, Arabs, French, etc.

Seconded. 70.20.18.122 (talk) 02:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

They're much more likely to be Coptics than another (possibly more litigious) religion. That said, they currently aren't. -LlywelynII (talk) 14:28, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Is the Nubian wedding in the picture a Christian wedding, a Muslim wedding, or something else? Michael Hardy 18:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Muslim, as the some of the women in the back are wearing the characteristic hijab. Also, I don't believe there are any Christian Nubian communities today. If I recall correctly, the Nubians had all become Muslim by the Ottoman period (16th century). — Zerida 19:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

with all my respect to wikipedia but thats bullshit there is no coptic nubians iam originally from nubia!!!!!and even if there is 1 or 2% thats not a significant percentage to put coptic christianity in the section of religion!!!!otherwise alot of ethnics which have a significant muslim minorities is being neglected in wikipedia in the religion section ,in fact you arent as neutral as you claim and thats the truth

It's true that there aren't any Christian communities left today, but the Coptic community lasted into the 18th or 19th century. The article much more on Meroe, Nobadia, Makuria, their conversion to Christianity, their obligation under the Baqt to provide hundreds of slaves to the Muslim caliphate each year, the eventual inheritance of the kingdom by dynasties of Arab sheikhs whose lineage was more prized than the Nubians' own, the Bosnian garrisons, and fate during the Mahdi revolt, etc. -LlywelynII (talk) 14:24, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Physical Continuity

"The Nubians today, as well as the Arabic-speaking groups of northern Sudan, all show a clear physical continuity with the ancient Nubians." What does that mean, what are the physical features of ancient Nubians? If anyone knows please answer! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.222.54.16 (talk) 14:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

On any reading, the sentence doesn't mean anything. The description of ancient Nubians in the article says they had dark skin and wore hooped earrings. Are we suggesting that present-day Nubians all wear hopped earrings? In any case, the ancinet Nubian description is unsourced and can't be relied upon until someone can verify it

The statement that modern Nubians look like ancinet Nubians is itself unsourced, and would be a challenge to verify as we have no clear physica description of ancient Nubians and no explanation of modern Nubian appearance either. It would probably be possible to get materials together describing the common physical attributes of modern Nubians, and this would be worth adding tot hea rticle. But the research is needed before the sweeping generalisation, which is what the sentence in the article is.

I've taken it out for now. Any other comments or opposing views and welcome. Euryalus (talk) 19:28, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• it´s a anacronism..anciet northern/northeastern nubia was very different to modern day..the nubians of n/ne was meds/anciet egyptians and the nubians of south/southwest was negroids..in the present day in the region have very mullatoes (the fusion of caucasoids meds of north/etnicamente anciet egyptians with negroid slaves females of south; e vide o mit egipcio com forte carga dali); pelas pinturas devia haver uma zona mulatoid intermediaria entre a zona caucasoide e a negroide do sul da nubia; pinturas que mostram graduações aos poucos em diferentes epocas e espaços.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.114.202.63 (talk) 16:03, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

A little spare, eh?

I've been told by professors and some of my fellow students that these people invented civilization and the Greeks stole it. Also, that they built the pyramids and were amazing scientists and engineers and invented everything that modern Europeans now claim. It's even mentioned in a rap song. Why isn't this mentioned in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.139.108.134 (talk) 13:07, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

You are free to add additional text. Make sure you are adding factual objective information to this article. If you have opinions or information that is in dispute, feel free to add that to the 'controvery' section of this article. If no such section exists, please create one.

The origins of the Nubians, Ethiopians, and Egyptions has always been debated. All opinions are welcomed - regardless of race, color, or creed. One must be careful in trying to attach modern labels (black, white, arab) onto ancient groups. Certainly the culture & dress of the Nubians is closer to that of other African groups that Arab groups - necklace, braided hair, female circumcision, and etc. However there was a later Arab influence from the north.

I believe the situation is best represented by the following anology. What if the popluation of the North America suddenly disappears overnight along with all texts - only photos and statues remained? How would a foreigner that never observed an 'American' described them based on the photos and statues? They would most likely describe Americans as having descended from a similar group in Europe and being white - being in America first. They would consider all the advances in American culture to be soley a European influence. There would be no references to African-Americans or Native Americans outside of a migration from South America or slavery.

So when you look at Nubia and Egypt, it is a similar situation. Certainly, the early civilizations were distinctly African and a darker people. But migration & wars changed that. -Leon Spencer, Animis Opibusque Parati 12:25, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the article could use mention of those ideas (or a link to another article about the Black Power movement and its academic support). Just be sure to note the sources of the information and approach it from the perspective of a current controversy rather than factual statements about the past. -LlywelynII (talk) 14:24, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

civilization is an abstraction and therefore cannot be stolen. Ideas can be stolen, but since ideas are not material their function will not cease once they are stolen. The idea that Europeans "stole" nubian civilization is not only absurd, it is racist. Furthermore there is no evidence the Nubians constructed the pyramids. Why would Nubians create structures for Egyptian kings to be buried in Egyptian territory? If the Nubians built the pyramids wouldn't it make sense for them to be in Nubia??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.190.174.107 (talk) 21:43, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

According to Wikepedia, pyramids were found in Nubia. To be civil is based on one's ideas and beliefs. Ideas and beliefs are passed down from generation to generation. This is known as one's traditions and customs. If a group of people can be stolen, how then is it racist for a civilization to be stolen? Is it racist for one to suggest that copyright can be and has been infringed? The idea that Europeans "stole" nubian civilization is not racist. Whether it is true is the argument. VividTruth (talk) 15:13, 21 March 2011 (UTC)VividTruth

The argument isn't whether or not Nubians built pyramids. It is well known that Nubians build pyramids, however there is no evidence that supports the idea that Nubians build the pyramids in Egypt. There is equally scant evidence that the people from greece took Nubian ideas considering they have different religions, architecture, and artistic designs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.199.162.154 (talk) 01:16, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

unsourced claims

I deleted a number of claims that were not associated with a source. These were that the nubians were famous for their great military their advanced civilization that they used poison tipped arrows, and that they were known for their great wealth. These claims were all linked to a source that discussed the importance of the bow in nubian culture. I left relevant information about nubian archers, but first of all saying the nubians were known for their great wealth, advanced civilization, and great military is unsourced and therefore has no place in this entry. Second of all, this is opinion based, and it could be argued that many ancient nations would have been known for their great wealth, advanced civilization and great military. I also deleted a claim that the nubians were known for their 23 letter alphabet. The citation listed also does not mention anything about a 23 letter alphabet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.190.174.107 (talk) 01:39, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I once again deleted the same claims made about Nubia that are not verified by any cited source. If these claims are true it is the responsibility of the editor to find a source. I will continue to delete unsourced claims that, quite frankly, are not worded with a neutral, academic, mindset. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.190.174.107 (talk) 21:24, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

These claims keep popping up, and I will continue to delete them. I'm only posting this so admins don't look at my behavior and think I'm trying to vandalize this page. I'm deleting parts of the introduction because they are not cited, and make claims that impact the integrity of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.190.174.107 (talk) 22:01, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I did some research and many of the claims on the front of this article are completely made up. I've apparently lost my ability to edit this page for deleting inaccurate information but can someone please make this page as accurate as possible? It's reasons like this that wikipedia gets criticized as an unreliable source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.190.174.107 (talk) 22:07, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll take a look tomorrow. There's no reason you can't edit the page, it's not protected. Is it just the claims above you are referring to?Dougweller (talk) 22:16, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes I am reffering to the information starting with "Nubians are famous for" (which isn't neutrally worded to begin with) and I was unable to edit because apparently someone suspended my IP address because they felt deleting completely unsourced information is vandalism. I'm at home for break now so I'm going to delete the information once more. I welcome anyone to do some research and it's easy to find that these assertions are only available on wikipedia and websites that have copy pasted from this page and spread the unreliable information. I am quite frankly shocked at how willing this community is to allow these unsourced claims to persist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.199.162.154 (talk) 01:09, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I think I've been a bit rash, and therefore I think I've found a middle ground. Instead of deleting the information I simply added a "citation needed" header. I feel like this resolves the issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.199.162.154 (talk) 01:11, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Apparently there is someone out there who is fond of manipulating information and deleted my "citation needed" additions. The source cited said nothing other than Nubians are known for their skill with the bow. Everything else that is attributed to the source appears to be a complete fabrication. This is silly, if you are this biased on an issue you should not be editing the page in the first place.

Your citation needed additions were updated by a bot not a human to include the date. They are still there. You can see what the bot did by clicking this link. Please remember to sign your posts with 4 ~ Sean.hoyland - talk 10:43, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Nubians Pharaohs

Why does the opening sentence say "Nubian Pharaohs" when the title of the article is "Nubian people"? Tweisbach (talk) 11:23, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

An IP revised the articl recently, removing some sources, etc & made that change. I've reverted to an earlier version. Thanks for spotting this - it happened once before. Dougweller (talk) 13:01, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Nasty politics. Why have you removed the Nubian wedding picture ?

Removing or replacing the Nubian wedding picture that depict the actual features of the Nubian people and their culture by a picture of a woman of another African ethnic group that has different features and culture of the actual Nubians, is racist and will not be ignored. I will alert other Nubians if this agenda is not rectified.

The picture File:Anglo-Egyptian_Sudan_Nubian_woman.jpg comes from the Library of Congress. It is titled Nubian woman, Anglo-Egyptian Sudan. See here and further details are here. It is part of their Frank and Frances Carpenter Collection (see here). Sean.hoyland - talk 11:19, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

So it was from Library of the Congress !!!..This confirm "the real Political" agenda behind all of this article. Contemporary features of the Nubian people totally differe from the racist picture of colonialist era that you posted.The Anglo- Egyptian-Sudan Picture was depicted from a racist colonial mentality that actively try to misrepresent the actual diversity of the various Black African peoples in general. This ignorantly and arrogantly concluded that the most diverse of the world's racial groups, THE BLACK AFRICANS ,can be divided into two groups only.Namely Hermetic groups and Nilotic groups. This is obviously a racially driven simplification since the black Africans are the most diverse an ethnically rich racial groups of all the world's racial population.

Should we really believe that your reference that you cited come from an era of racism towards Africans or from an era calibrated the rich Black African's diversity in terms of culture an ethnicity ??

Second and final question is, why did you replace the wedding picture with an archive picture that comes from period of colonization?..obviously there is a large pool of pictures that is available to actually shows what the Nubian people ACTUALLY look like.

I hope that sense will prevail and you will repost the original wedding picture that was in the article.

Cheers

The picture probably was influenced by a racist colonial mentality and there was probably a racially driven simplification involved whether intentional or not. The picture certainly comes from an era of racism towards Africans. I don't think any of that means the photo should be excluded. History is history and this is an encyclopedia. I didn't replace the wedding picture. I don't see why we can't have both images. Sean.hoyland - talk 12:40, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Excuse me please, why you do not show my comment to others? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ‎89.211.160.29 (talk • contribs) 16:03, 25 January 2013

What do you mean by 'why you do not show my comment to others? And please stop removing your signature. And don't remove my edits or anyone else's. As I said before you removed my edit, if you could find some here or at Commons we can use, please suggest them. But without attacking other editors. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 12:20 pm, Today (UTC+0)

Viewing the Article's history everyone can clearly see that I do not remove edits I just bring back the replaced Nubian wedding picture which was previously there in this article. The question is why do you keep removing it for? Plus I don't know why our dialogue in this comment is not being shown to everyone except me, you and wiki staff?!!

Even if we disagree, we should atleast keep our dialogue this comment open and viewed to everyone, so that the users can see, read them and make up their minds !!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.211.160.29 (talk) 05:31, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Again I don't know what you mean. Everyone in the world can see this dialogue. Wiki staff are fund-raisers, Information technology specialists, etc and are completely irrelevant to this discussion. Dougweller (talk) 07:39, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

There is no proof that that picture is of an actual Nubian wedding, there are no sources, no references absolutely nothing that suggest its an actual Nubian wedding and not a wedding from another African ethnic group, from my personal opinion it looks more Somali than Nubian. So if you have proof that its a Nubian wedding then please share it.~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.120.253.95 (talk) 19:17, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Lol.. Is there anyproof that this racist Anglo- Egyption-Sudan Picture from colonialist era that you posted is an actual Nubian? does she look Nubian? she does not even look like for instance the example of some of Nubian people given by wikipedia in the "Prominent Nubians " section of the article (e.g Anwar Sadat,Mohamed Mounir,Gaafar Nimeiry,Mohammed Wardi, etc) .

Everyone knows who are the Nubians how they looks like. DO NOT REJOICE as it is “Intellectual defeat that you must ultimately be prepared for.ALL these fallacies that you and others had been advancing and putting forward will be exposed in due course.In the mean time if u sincerely believe and can prove your lies, then ENJOY YOURSELF FOR A LITTLE WHILE.

C U LATER

;+D — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.211.50.131 (talk) 04:45, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Homeland

Why is there no mention of Libya? I am sure the Numbians compose about 1% of Libya's population and that country borders Egypt. This information came up frequently during the Libyan crisis in 2011 depending which source you were watching and reading. Nubian is definitely one of Libya's languages. The Big Hoof! (talk) 04:37, 18 July 2013 (UTC) Struck out sock. bobrayner (talk) 05:18, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Source

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/01/140131-egypt-nubia-dams-nile-constitution-culture/

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/3750.htm

http://www.memri.org/clip_transcript/en/3750.htm

https://books.google.com/books?id=fWNpIGNFz0IC&pg=PA943#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=iKHOeLDvUVgC&pg=PA338#v=onepage&q&f=false

20:39, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Editors shouldn't add text to other editors' posts, but as for MEMRI - see Middle East Media Research Institute. Not a reliable source. Doug Weller (talk) 09:51, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Ethnic Nubians population by Governorates

Where I get population of Nubians by Governorates of Egypet? what Governorates have high share of Nubians?--Kaiyr (talk) 14:27, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Mulatto

They are mixture of Arabs and Negrids of Africa. So, should we add this template-mulatto- to the article? Lamedumal (talk) 09:54, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

 Not done Firstly, there is no "Template:Mulatto" (fortunately). Secondly, Arabs are not white, and the term "mulatto" denotes an individual of mixed white and black ancestry. TomUSA 05:44, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Use of I am a Nuba as a source

I don't see Renato Kizito Sesana as a reliable source given his lack of qualifications, nor its publisher.[1] If the information is accurate surely an academic source can be found. Doug Weller talk 09:16, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Sprachkunde

In Nubians actually migrated off Phoenicia =EastTurkey, Syria Jourdania Israel, then migrated to Sudan etc, Would it be possible Nubians were DAnubians??

Iff Khurds are Turkish Iranian up to Northern India, could it be that they also related to Danubians? Wikistallion (talk) 16:52, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Imagehexahedron.hu › m_ivanyi › introdu BRIDGES ON THE DANUBE Early in the 8th to 7th century B. C. Phoenicians, Egyptians, and Greeks penetrated the Danube estuary, entering into trade contacts with

Wikistallion (talk) 17:16, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

phoenicians and danube

Imagehexahedron.hu › m_ivanyi › introdu BRIDGES ON THE DANUBE Early in the 8th to 7th century B. C. Phoenicians, Egyptians, and Greeks penetrated the Danube estuary, entering into trade contacts with

confirming phoenicians were there on Danube. Now when was Danube named Danube? which names did this river have over centuries in all languages? jiddish. Old Greek. slavic. or else Wikistallion (talk) 17:20, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Nubian Princess - use in North American Black Vernacular Language

I added the following to the article -

"North American blacks will sometimes refer to beautiful black women (usually dark-skinned) as Nubian (adjective) or a Nubian Princess (noun). These terms are used regardless of the woman's actual African origin. It is considered a compliment."

I dont think it means just dark skinned african/ african american women I think it means all skin tones of women of African descent. I think many people think that all africans are dark skinned and look like the Bantu ethnic groups.

I came to the Nubian article in the first place because I was familiar with this usage and I wanted to know who the real Nubians were. I believe this addition is relevant to the article. I am white but I believe my description of the slang is accurate. If you feel it does not belong in the article please discuss it here. -Jonathan in California —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.127.73.172 (talk) 03:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC).

The use of Nubian to refer with pride to African heritage is valid for inclusion. "Nubian Princess," which isn't, is just derived from it by analogy with JAP, &c. -LlywelynII (talk) 14:28, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

No it is not valid for inclusion: North American black people are of Niger-Congo heritage in the main. They are not Nubians (ancient Nubians being West Eurasian : Nilotic (60:40) by most recent genetic appraisals). 2001:8003:70F5:2400:B92F:BCC7:8F5E:3781 (talk) 19:01, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Interesting perspective Jonathan, but it is only valid for inclusion if you want to perpetuate absurdity: North American black people are of Niger-Congo heritage in the main. They are not Nubians (ancient Nubians being West Eurasian : Nilotic (60:40) by most recent genetic appraisals). This would be quite literally cultural appropriation. It would be akin to you referring to yourself as a Cimmerian. 144.134.99.146 (talk) 19:30, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

wikitionary has it a lot better. third def there should definitely be covered in this article.

speaking as (another) american, i have ONLY heard this usage. hot black chick, DARK black chick, someone proud of african heritage, yadda yadda. which, ironically, doesn't really even INCLUDE the real nubians!

may be incorrect at its core, but so commonplace nowadays (at least in US), article needs to reflect idea that nubian generally means "african american" more widely these days. at least in the US. 66.30.47.138 (talk) 10:33, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Why? 'African'/Black American culture cares not for Historical accuracy and is in a constant state of appropriating other people's cultures. The claims of Black Americans (who historically, source primarily from Niger-Congo peoples) on Ancient Egyptian, Greek, North African, South American, Ethiopian, Somali, Waswahili, Nilotic/Nubian, ... is way past the point of absurdity! History does not have to reflect the fashion sense of Black Americans. 2001:8003:70F5:2400:B92F:BCC7:8F5E:3781 (talk) 18:30, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Genetics

An IP editor today inserted a lot of genetics information from a study, but I am sorry to say I have reverted it. The reason is that what is being inserted is technical and primary sourced information on gene distributions. It does not tell us about Nubians, only what the study found about a limited number of people. Genetics information on this page needs to be curated, using secondary sources who can look at the evidence as a whole and provide some reportable conclusions about the genetics and what this tells us. Readers of this page should not need to understand haplogroups to understand the information.

Please note that the page history will hold the inserted information, should you want to use it elsewhere. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:48, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi Sirfurboy, personally I am not interested in edit wars or unnecessary back and forth, so you can do as you see fit. However, I encourage other editors to assess for themselves whether Y-Chromosome and Maternal ancestries should be included as on other ethnic group pages, and maybe in the future decide to add it back again. I just want people access to all the information and data, Wikipedia is about learning and individuals can easily understand the more technical aspects of population genetics with a little reading. Anyway, no hard feelings friend, regards. 102.217.80.26 (talk) 08:57, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply and reasonable approach, and indeed thanks for the edit. Although I think it was too technical, I understand you were trying to improve the page and recognise the time you spent doing it. I did feel bad about reverting it. There are not many pages left on ethnic groups with this kind of primary sourced single study data as it is overly technical, quickly out dated and very partial. Certainly none of the pages on my watch list have these any more. At one point an editor added this kind of information to a lot of pages about many ethnic groups but it has all been gradually reverted or edited out by now. An example of a better way to do a genetics section can be seen at Dutch people#Genetics where these genome studies have been collated in secondary sources and those are used to create more general inferences and observations. That section does not require the reader to understand genetics to understand the information. Most readers will not know what a haplogroup is, and I would venture to guess that most readers will not understand that e.g., mtDNA is maternal line only, and that maternal ancestry may show something different from autosomal analysis (same for Y chromosome/male line of course).

The study you cited looks like it is good science, but it was a very limited group (39) so extrapolations across the whole ethnic group would be illegitimate based on that alone, and the technical detail of the study is WP:UNDUE.

That having been said, I do note that the genetics section on this page is presented as a selection of studies - essentially a list - and for each cited study a general conclusion is cited. If you want to rewrite your conclusion in that format, quoting from the study conclusions, and leaving out all the technical detail, I would have no problem with the addition.

More generally I think the list of studies in the genetics section on this page is not entirely ideal. It would be better presented as prose, showing what we now know (and don't know) about population genetics. That is trickier unless secondary sources already exist. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:27, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Genetic sections and genetic articles are often a problem with editors picking data from the study rather than using the summary or discussion (abstracts aren't good sources either). I agree with Sirfurboy. Doug Weller talk 13:01, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Nubians live in southern Sudan, not just northern

@User:Dahassan7 Hill Nubians are Nubians living in the Nuba Mountains who speak a group of Nubian languages, the Hill Nubian languages. There are also the Midob people of Darfur, who are also Nubians speaking a Nubian language, the Midob language. SpikeballUnion (talk) 22:57, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if you're "from Sudan" if you can't read these Wikipedia articles. SpikeballUnion (talk) 22:59, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

@User:SpikeballUnion I see why you are confused now. Americans speak English does that make Americans the English? No, obviously not. The umbrella Nilo-Saharan Nubian language has many branches that actually include modern South Sudan & Chad, but the term Nubian in its current usage refers to a very distinct group in a specific region who speak the same language. Again, no one refers to the Nuba people as Nubians. But if you want to add the Hill Nubians to the lead page then that is fine. But you need to make a clear distinction regarding geography, history, and language between the Nuba people and the Northern Nile Nubians. That is why I made a separate section with a detailed explanation. Your previous edit was disingenuous in that it gave the impression they are the same group. Dahassan7 (talk) 23:57, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

That American–English analogy was very inaccurate. Americans are a highly diverse nationality. Hill Nubians are an ethnic group directly related to other Nubian peoples. They're not the "Nuba people". "Nuba" is a generic term for all peoples living in the Nuba Mountains, including the Niger–Congo peoples. The correct term for the Nubians of the Nuba Mountains is Hill Nubians. There is also the Midob people of Darfur, which you seem to be avoiding mentioning. SpikeballUnion (talk) 00:46, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

@User:SpikeballUnion What lol? The Nuba people are extremely diverse regardless of which language they speak. The Nubians who live in the North are also very diverse and form different tribes or "ethnic groups." This statement "are an ethnic group directly related to other Nubian peoples" is false and shows a deep lack of understanding. We are discussing a language group not ethnicity. Half of the native tribes of N. Sudan don't speak a Nubian language (and there is no historical evidence that these tribes every did). And yet everyone of the North is of the same "ethnicity." As a tangential aside, the Nubian languages split thousands of years ago and are not mutually understandable. @User:SpikeballUnion Also thanks for starting this talk page! Dahassan7 (talk) 23:57, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

You're welcome. SpikeballUnion (talk) 00:46, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

@User:SpikeballUnion I think you and I are in agreement. If you dislike the detailed explanation and Hill Nubian section I created then feel free to change it. But it is essential you clarify the geographical, linguistic, and historical differences. Otherwise, you leave the reader with the false impression that they are the same group, and as a result, much of modern Sudanese history would make little sense. For instance, the fact that the Nuba people are currently attempting to exercise their right to self determination and join South Sudan (who they are culturally and historically closer to) would be confusing if someone believed they are all the same group. In the same manner, the subsequent inhuman & indiscriminate bombing of the Nuba mountains makes little sense if you don't understand the attitude & differences of the North. Thank you for all your edits and for being this interested in Nubians. It was really interesting to debate with you. Good luck! Dahassan7 (talk) 23:57, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

The Nubians you are referring to (those of northern Sudan and southern Egypt, the Kenzi–Dongolawi and Nobiin) are just a few of the Nubian groups. The rest of the Nubians are the Hill Nubians, Midob and the Birgid, who all live in southern Sudan. "Nubians" does not just mean northern Nubians; it means what it says – Nubians. SpikeballUnion (talk) 00:46, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

The lead has to summarise the main body of the article, correct? The body of the article includes all Nubian groups, including the Hill Nubians and the Midob people, so the lead should summarise as appropriate. Purposely missing out the southern Sudanese Nubian groups just because it doesn't fit your definition (despite them being in this very article) would be misleading. SpikeballUnion (talk) 00:49, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

you said : '"Nubians" does not just mean northern Nubians'

Yes it does. The nile Nubians are the original group, other speaker of the Nubian languages are an offshoot of the original inhabitants of Nubia , the Nobiin and Andaandi speakers.

you said : "The rest of the Nubians are the Hill Nubians, Midob and the Birgid, who all live in southern Sudan"

the Meidob live in Darfur, only the Nubian speaking Nuba of the Nuba mountains are considered "Nubians" and these inhabit the northern portions of the Nuba Mountains i.e south Gordofan , which, has never been at any point in history, referred to as "the south"

it is astonishing to me how some africans do not speak a nubian language and are happy to appropriate Nubian identity and non of the problem of Nubia Kryako (talk) 12:01, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

@User:SpikeballUnionI'm not sure what you're unhappy about? In my last post, I supported adding the line, but I asked you to clarify the distinction in your post which you deceptively did not do. I'm not "avoiding" mentioning anything. Please add all the Nubian lingustic groups as I made references above to Western & Southern groups. In addition, much of the lead is no longer accurate please fix it. You are defining the Nubians as a linguistic group (not based on region i.e. Southern Egypt & Northern Sudan), which is fine. By that definition, however, Kush is not Nubian because they did not speak a Nubian language. They spoke the Merotic language which is unclassified (unclear if its Afroasiatic or Nilosaharan) but either way it is a separate language from Nubian. The linguistic Nubians came to N. Sudan sometime around 4th century AD from an unclear location. Dahassan7 (talk) 21:54, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Dear Dahassan

You said : "The linguistic Nubians came to N. Sudan sometime around 4th century AD from an unclear location"

this is empirically and equivocally incorrect and i would love to see which pre 1980s book you got this reference from. What we know for a fact is that the Nile Nubians origin was somewhere in the nile valley. there are many archeological and linguistic evidence that points clearly to this. Nearly every major book on Nubiology supports this, so the claim you made about "unknown origin" is unscientific.

you also said: "Kush is not Nubian because they did not speak a Nubian language. They spoke the Merotic language which is unclassified (unclear if its Afroasiatic or Nilosaharan) but either way it is a separate language from Nubian"

Again a major error. Nubian and Meroitic are both part of the Northern Eastern Sudanic language group. the membership of Meroitic to Nilo-Saharan is not a matter of controversy anymore (especially after the most recent conventions on Nubian studies and Meroitic studies). The transition of Merotic into Nubian can be traced comfortably in a little known Nubian language named "Soba Nubian". there are instance of Nubian being written in a Meroitic script. Linguist only managed to understand the phonology of Meroitic by cross referencing it with Nubian languages, especially the Nile Nubian languages. Nubian languages , as far as linguistics is concerned , predate Meroitic in the Nile valley . Archology also reaches the same conclusion.

Modern Nubians are only found in the cataract Nile, Hill Nubian is not a designation of culture but a linguistic one, the Meidob and the Birgid ( which is now extict ) are speaker of a Nubian language but are not ethnically Nubians. The only correct use of "Nubian" is to the speaker of one of the two Nile Nubian language. The appropriation by other Africans of the word Nubian is a result of miseducation on the matter and politics

Note to wikipedia,: the articles here concerning Nubians should be revised by ethnic Nubians or by Nubiologist as there are many " Amateur" enteries in this page that show clearly that the writers are not experts on Nubian culture or Nubian history which may lead to misinformation 51.211.214.37 (talk) 14:19, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

The population figure in the infobox is misleading

The 30m in Sudan figure in the infobox is very misleading. I will not dispute the origins claim, but the topic of this article is the modern day ethnic group, not ancestral origins. In the same way that the figures for Assyrian people don't include Arabized Syrians, figures for Berbers don't include Arabized North Africans, figures for Copts don't include Muslim Egyptians, etc. The modern-day ethnic group described by this article is not descriptive of Sudanese Arabs of Nubian origins. High surv (talk) 14:01, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Section referring to "Noba" nomads

Hello I have edited the section referring to the "Noba nomads" as there is no archaeological or linguistic evidence of the Noba being speakers of a Nubian language , much less the group that introduced the Nubian languages to the Nile valley (we do not know which language that group spoke, if there was such a group in the first place). The passage that refers to the "Noba nomads " shows no citation for sources As far as archaeology is concerned , Nubian languages have been spoken in the Nile valley since Kerma and even before that period. Kryako (talk) 08:26, 14 December 2023 (UTC)