Talk:Samhain/Archive 4

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Samhain as May 1st was celebrated up the nineteen century?

Thanks to the Old-Irish-l group who translated two of the three tales discussing Samain: Don tSamain Beos, Fagail na samna and Scél na Samhna. These texts describe a 'battle game’ (i.e. players having equal pieces) played yearly by the Maiden and the Cailleach.

The game in the tales is called Fidchell, however the reference to 18 pieces suggest the Roman game ludus latrunculorum, which Eoin Mac White identified in “Early Irish Board Games”, Éigse 5 (1948), p.25–35, as possible identification of what the Irish called Fidchell.

In the Isle of Mann (and similarly in Wales) an actual physical/play battle between a troop of men, each lead by a captain is held yearly. One fights for the Maiden (the daughter of a rich farmer) and the other for the Cailleach (a man dress as woman). This yearly activity occurs across the length of the Isle of Mann on May 1st. The battle was a metaphor for summer’s defeat of winter and similar battles where held across Europe on May 1st.

In the tales treat the battle game of Fidchell as a metaphor for the battle at Armageddon (i.e., the forces of light defeating forces of darkness). In the biblical story of battle at Armageddon, it is St Michael who leads force of light as kills the Antichrist.

When the Antichrist is depicted as a dragon (Irish seems to have their own version of tale), it parallels the image is found atop of some of the Celtic Jupiter columns within continental Europe. The others have the solar figure mounted and armed with a lightning bolt, as if he was the image of St George. The images of defeating a serpent man parallels markedly with the Slavic confliction between chief god Perun and serpent water god Veles. The later was either represented as Satan or as a saint, hence we have another possible depiction the defeat of the Antichrist).

In Ireland St Michael was associated with Irish god Lugh. There are alternative Irish descriptions of the Antichrist in Irish tales; that of a powerful man with an eye in the middle of his forehead, suggesting a parallel with Balor. The mythical tale the Second battle of Magh Tured has Lugh killing Balor (most likely with a lightning bolt) and occurring at the same day as the Maiden battles the Cailleach, i.e. Samhain.

The defeat of the Cailleach mirrors the Scottish tradition of her as a figure of the Winter; who at the start of summer is replace (defeat or transformed) by the Maiden. Some have suggested that the maiden’s consort was the god Angus Og/Lugh and replaced in local tales by St Patrick.

The tales go on to say “manner was prohibited from then on, by the decision of Pope Boniface and Emperor Phocas, and the Pantheon was consecrated to the saints of the world, …”.

The Irish author would be fully aware that this reference to Pope Boniface and Emperor Phocas, and the Pantheon is the story behind the creation of “All Martyrs Day” held on May 13th.

(Note: I find it unlikely that Irish celebration where original held on the 1st of the month, for numerous tales describe 15 days before and 15 days after the day in the manner of Coligny calendar.)

(Note above reference to tale "Battle of Maige Rath" which tells that Feast of Tara was held circa 628 in the middle of May. The Feast of Tara was commonly associated with Samhain.)

All Martyrs, May 13th, in the 8th century was transferred by the Church to All Saints Day, November 1st. Only after this date do we have in the Irish records Samhain identified with November first (already the start of winter for Christians) and with All Saints day (which it remains associated with). This first occurrence of this dating is in the early 9th century Martyrology of Oengus.

Additionally the fuller tales tells “Because Samain was formerly a festival of the gods of the world until this time, it will be a festival of the saints and holy virgins of the world from now on, and like it is in the name of the queen of the emperor that you have honored them heretofore, it will be done from now on in honor of the true queen who is queen to the true emperor, that is the Virgin Mary who is queen to Jesus Christ.”

I note that it was report that some Irish celebrated on this day (Samhain) the goddess figure Mongfind, i.e. Féile Moingfhinne, "the Festival of Mongfind".

The dates of when we know when the Irish celebrated are RELATIVE to the age of the source material that we have learn of the celebration from. So bearing this in mind, Scotland has the celebration of Cailleach’s day in March 25th, the same day as the Annunciation to the Blessed Virgin Mary. And the same day, assuming St Patrick followed Gallic Church doctrine, that St Patrick would have been his Easter and his conflicted with the earliest reference to a Feast of Tara.

Also in Ireland March 18th in 18th/19th century Ireland was the day of St Sheila (associated with snow). She was the wife of St Patrick. In full tale the Cailleach reaches between her thighs to draw out her playing piece. These eight pieces represent eight sins, versus the maiden who draws eight virtues from her mouth. Maybe the Cailleach is drawing winter out from between her thighs? This image may be bawdy humor or it could be related the images of the Sheela-na-gig.

19th Century custom from the Isle of Mann: “… ‘In almost all the great parishes they choose from among the daughters of the most wealthy farmers a young maid for the Queen of May. She is dressed in the gayest and best manner they can, and is attended by about twenty others, who are called maids of honour, she has also a young man, who is her captain, and has under his command a great number of inferior officers. In opposition to her is the Queen of Winter, who is a man dressed in women's clothes, with woollen hoods, fur tippets, and loaded with the warmest and heaviest habits one upon another ; in the same manner are those who represent her attendants dressed ; nor is she without a captain and troop for her defence. Both being equipped as proper emblems of the beauty of the spring and the deformity of the winter, they set forth from their respective quarters ; the one preceded by violins and flutes, the other with the rough music of tongs and cleavers. Both companies march till they meet on a common, and then their trains engage in a mock-battle. If the Queen of Winter's forces get the better, so far as to take the Queen of May prisoner, she is ransomed for as much as pays the expense of the day. After this ceremony, Winter and her company retire and divert themselves in a barn, and the others remain on the green, where, having danced a considerable time, they conclude the evening with a feast, the queen at one table with her maids, the captain with his troop at another. There are seldom less than fifty or sixty persons at each board.’ …" From “The folk-lore of the Isle of Man” by Arthur William Moore”

From Wales: “An aged Welshman described the battle as conducted in South Wales in the following way: "When I was a boy, two companies of men and youths were formed. One had for its captain a man dressed in a long coat much trimmed with fur, and on his head a rough fur cap. He carried a stout stick of blackthorn and a kind of shield, on which were studded tufts of wool to represent snow. His companions wore caps and waistcoats of fur decorated with balls of white wool. These men were very bold, and in songs and verse proclaimed the virtues of Winter, who was their captain. The other company had for its leader a captain representing Summer. This man was dressed in a king of white smock decorated with garlands of flowers and gay ribbons. On his head he wore a broad-brimmed hat trimmed with flowers and ribbons. In his hand he carried a willow-wand wreathed with spring flowers and tied with ribbons. All these men marched in procession, with their captains on horseback heading them, to an appropriate place. This would be on some stretch of common or wasteland. There a mock encounter took place, the Winter company flinging straw and dry underwood at their opponents, who used as their weapons birch branches, willow-wands, and young ferns. A good deal of horse-play went on, but finally Summer gained the mastery over Winter. Then the victorious captain representing Summer selected a May King and the people nominated a May Queen, who were crowned and conducted into the village. The remainder of the day was given up to feasting, dancing, games of all kinds, and later still, drinking. Revelry continued through the night until the next morning.” From “Folk-lore and folk-stories of Wales” by Marie Trevelyan, 1909.

May 1st being the day of Beltaine also troubles me for the customs associate with Beltaine occur at Mid-Summers Day in 18th/19th century Ireland and Scotland: "I find the following, much to our purpose, in the Gentleman's Magazine for February 1795, vol. Ixv. p. 124: "The Irish have ever been worshippers of Fire and of Baal, and are so to this day. This is owing to the Roman Catholics, who have artfully yielded to the superstitions of the natives, in order to gain and keep up an establishment, grafting Christianity upon Pagan rites. The chief festival in honour of the Sun and Fire is upon the 21st of June, when the sun arrives at the summer solstice, or rather begins its retrograde motion. I was so fortunate in the summer of 1782, as to have my curiosity gratified by a sight of this ceremony to a very great extent of country. At the house where I was entertained, it was told me that we should see at midnight the most singular sight in Ireland, which was the lighting of Fires in honour of the Sun. Accordingly, exactly at midnight, the Fires began to appear: and taking the advantage of going up to the leads of the house, which had a widely extended view, I saw on a radius of thirty miles, all around, the Fires burning on every eminence which the country afforded. I had a farther satisfaction in learning, from undoubted authority, that the people danced round the Fires, and at the close went through these fires, and made their sons and daughters, together with their cattle, pass through the Fire; and the whole was conducted with religious solemnity.' This is at the end of some Reflections by the late Rev. Donald M'Queen, of Kilinuir in the Isle of Sky, on ancient Customs preserved in that Island." From “'Observations on Popular Antiquities", Volume 1, by Geeraert Brandtand Henry Ellis, 1813.

Scotland: "the least considerable of them is that of midsummer. In the Highlands of Perthshire there are some vestiges of it. The cowherd goes three times round the fold, according to the course of the sun, with a burning torch in his hand. They imagined this rite had a tendency to purify their herds and flocks, and to prevent diseases. At their return the landlady makes an entertainment for the cowherd and his associates." From “Scotland and Scotsmen in the eighteenth century”, Volume 2, by John Ramsay, Alexander Allardyce, 1888, p.436

The timing of Lughnasad (Lugh’s death) is also conflicted, as versions of LGE which put it at the end of October. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.1.234.164 (talk) 15:26, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Samain and May 1st both begining of the year?

Four Master entry M3656.2: "A b-foirchend na bliadhna-so at-bail-siomh, go teoraibh cethramhnaibh fer n-Ereann ime, i mordhail Maighe Slecht, isin m-Breifne ag adhradh do Crom Croach, airdiodhal adhartha Erenn eisidhe, oidche h-Samhna do h-sonradh innsin." "At the end of this year he died, with the three fourths of the men of Ireland about him, at the meeting of Magh Slecht, in Breifne, at the worshipping of Crom Cruach, which was the chief idol of adoration in Ireland. This happened on the night of Samhain precisely."

However if Samain is at the end of the old year, then Samain is also the start of the new year?

'Fornocht' from the Rennes Dindshenchas, prophezied the coming year at Samain: "Aliter Fornocht .i. Uince Ochurbel, & is de asberar Ochurbel fo bith aroile fer bo achurbeoil ic labraid dia sun, daig ni labrad Uinci acht tri lai & tri haidche ria samain & iar samoin cacha bliadne, & adfed dia muindtir lergnima na bliadne beus amail cach faith. Fer ar fichit a lín dogrés."

If the end of the end is the start of the year, then it is May 1st per a comparison of the annals: M3500.1: “Tasgur .i. cobhlach mac Míleth do techt i n-Erind a b-foirchend na bliadhna-so dia gabhail ar Tuathaibh De Danann, & ro fersat cath Slébe Mis friú isin tres laithe iar na t-techt h-i t-tír:” "The fleet of the sone of Milidh came to Ireland at the end of this year, to take it from the Tuatha De Dananns; and they fought the battle of Sliabh Mis with them on the third day after landing."

Chronicon Scotorum pre-Patracian entry: "Día Dárdaoin for Kl. Maoí gabais tasgur mac Milidh Erinn in Inber Sgéne, for .xuii. lunae & adbath ann ben Aimergín Glúingil .i. Sgene Dauilsir & focres a fert ann unde Inper Sgene & focres fert Erennain don leth ele. Treas laithe iar ngabail a n-Erinn do macoib Milidh ra cuirsit cath Slebhe Mis fri demnaibh & fri Fomorchaibh & ro meabaidh ría macoib Milidh & ro gabsat cennus Erenn go haithgerr iarum & reliqua." "On Thursday, the Kalends of May, on the l7th of the Moon, the fleet of the sons of Milidh occupied Erinn at Inbher Sgene, and the wife of Aimergin Gluingil, i.e. Sgene Davilsir, died there, and her grave was made there; hence it was called Inbher Sgene. Erennan's grave was placed on the other side. The third day after the occupation of Erinn by the sons of Miledh, they fought the battle of Sliabh Mis against demons and Fomorians, and the sons of Milidh gained it, and they assumed the sovereignty of Erinn very soon afterwards; and so forth."

So the events of the "foirchend na bliadhna" are the events of 'Kl. Maoí'.

I believe it is acceptable to say that May 1st was the start of the agricultural year in Ireland. It was also the important day for marriages and property rights:

A version of 'Cain Lanamhna' says: "co ceand mbliadna, .i. cur na belltanaib nida nesom;" "to the end of a year, i.e. to the next May-days,"

End of the year is May 1st?

This passage (given fully below) and an additional description of divorce payments have the marriage running from Beltaine to Beltaine:

“Nomad a indud, ocus a arbim, ocus a sail mad mardentaig; is miach di cacha mis ara bi co ceand mbliadna, .i. cus na belltanaib bi da nesom; ar mu biad i naimsir imscarta iscarad.” "One-ninth of his (the man's) increase, and of his corn, and of his bacon is due to the woman if she be a great worker; she has a sack every month she is with him to the end of a year, i.e. to the next May-days, for this is mostly the time in which they make their separation."

The other law tract that gives a time frame is that for Property, which also use the frame Beltaine to Beltaine.

AL iii .142.19-20: “.i. in foltach fuithrime ocus in carpat ar Imran ir é a naichmeside: tír ceithri secht cumhal ac in dara de, ocus ceithri ba fichit ac araile, ocus comaenta do niat ó belltaine co belltaine." “That is, the holder and the stock-owner are of this king; the one has land of the value of four times seven ‘cumbals,’ and the other has twenty-four cows, and they make an agreement to remain together from May to May.”

I found an alternative quoted by Dr Koch: "NO DIA I NAETALLAIND FOR TIR .i. IN foltach fuithrime 7 in carpat ar imarm; is e a naichi-side: tir .iiii.ri .uii acin dara de 7 ceithri ba xx.it ar araile 7 comaentu doniat o belltaini co belltaini."

I know of, but unfortunately do not have a copy of Dr McCone paper whether he ascribes two Samain(s) at the being and end of summer period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.1.234.164 (talk) 15:48, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

The semantic shift of Samhain

Dr. David Stifter, professor of Old Irish at National University of Ireland, Maynooth, offered his informed opinion on etymology of Samain in the public Old-Irish-l forum says:

"What I am saying (and believing) is that OIr. samuin, Gaul. samonios and related derivatives in the Brit. languages, such as W cyntefin, methefin, are derivatives of *samos, the Proto-Celtic word for "summer". Being a derivative, the original meaning of samuin or its ancestral forms was something like "pertaining to summer". "Pertaining to summer", however, can be quite diverse things. It could relate to something belonging to the middle of summer, but it could just as well refer to "(end of) summer", as is generally suggested for OIr. samuin. There is no guarantee that samuin always occurred at the 1st Nov. The only thing we know is that after the introduction of the Roman calendar to Ireland, samuin was associated with the 1st Nov and with All Saints' Day. Maybe the precursor of samuin occurred a few days or weeks earlier than this, and thereby closer to what we understand as summer. However, *samoni(o)- (or whatever the precise reconstruction of that word would be) does not mean "summer", only "having something to do with summer". It is obvious that some semantic shift must have affected the word at some stage of its history. The problem with semantic shifts is that they are totally arbitrary and cannot be described in any kind of rules. Fundamentally, anything goes."

In regard to the potential for Samain “could just as well refer to ‘(end of) summer’”, we must remember that Dr Carey in "Sequence and Causation in Echtra Nerai", Ériu, 39, 1988, p. 67-74, clearly argue that the end of summer in the Gaelic world is July. “The most subtle and persuasive discussion so far has been that of Kim McCone. Arguing from the formulaic opposition sam/gaim ‘summer/winter’ in Irish, and from the broader findings of Indo-European comparative scholarship, he concludes that the ancient Irish year was divided into halves: summer, becoming with Beltaine (1 May), and winter, beginning with Samain (1 November). Cétamain (<*kintu-samon-), an alternative name for Beltaine, is evidently an older term than the latter, given its obvious kinship with the synonymous Middle Welsh Kyntefin. McCone suggests that in Ireland Samain came to designate not merely the beginning of summer (presumably the sense of Coligny’s SAMONI(-)) but also its end: ‘first Samain’ (=Cétamain) and ‘second Samain’ bracketed the season. As Beltaine became the usual name for the former, Samain came to be applied exclusively to the later. A difficulty for this theory was first pointed out to me by John T. Koch: Cétamain and Kyntefin are members of a family of terms, all of which refer to a summer which is three months long, not six. From Kyntefin ‘1 May’ we can scarcely dissociate Welsh Mehefin, Breton Mezheven ‘June’ <*medio-samon- ‘middle of summer’, or Welsh Gorffennaf ‘July’, literally ‘end of summer’. Modern Irish M(e)itheamh ‘June’ must likewise go back to some form *medio-sam-; its Old Irish forerunner is glossed mi medhonach in tsámraid (sic) in ‘The cauldron of poesy’. Although Samain and Beltaine are frequently characterized as the poles of the Irish year, I am not aware that any reference to Samain as the end of summer is to be found outside the specific context of the sam-fhuin etymology: to rely on such evidence would surely be to argue in a circle.”

Dr Shifter opinon of the sam-fhuin etymology is "It is just the Early Medieval folk etymology found in Cormac's Glossary, and has no credentials to its etymological correctness whatsoever." Archive of Old-Irish-L 12/24/13. I view shared by Dr Carey in "Sequence and Causation in Echtra Nerai".

The semantic shift acknowledged by Dr Shifter and Dr Carey is a leap and not a subtle shift, November is not the end of the Gaelic summer. Also remember that Samain's binary opposite Gamain was in the 10th century (Sanas Cormaic) consider the name for the month of November, suggesting the original location of Samain was within the month of Cet Samain (May). Or a broader approach would be that Samain was originally in one of the three months named for it May, June and July. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.1.234.164 (talk) 13:24, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Pagan or Gaelic

This article in the International Business Times seems to describe it as a pagan festivity, attesting that pagans worldwide celebrate it in different ways. To be fair, this is far more descriptive than just saying it's Gaelic. The name is derived from Gaelic, sure, but this isn't wiktionary. Santa Claus comes from the Dutch Sinterklaas, but that doesn't mean giving presents on Christmas is a Dutch festivity. Bataaf van Oranje (talk) 21:40, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

It is Gaelic celebration. Regarded as an "end of summer" festival, it is not attested in other Celtic cultures. It is also Christian and Pre-Christian. Is the Irish name for All Saints Day and hence Christian. It is also attested in material with pre-Christian overtones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.112.34.183 (talk) 00:15, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

It is not attested with that name in other Celtic cultures, but similar celebrations are indeed found in the other modern Celtic cultures. Do some research on Calan Gaeaf in Wales, for instance. Cagwinn (talk) 02:18, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

It's not. Read Professor Hutton of Bristol University: "The early Welsh literature ascribes no importance to 1 November, 1 February or 1 August, and all the emotional investment made by the Irish writers in Samhain is attached instead to May Day (Calan Mai) and the night before it.”

Sam Hain cricketer

If a user types in "sam hain", with the space between the two words, aren't they more likely to be looking for the cricketer than the festival?

I'd suggest we update the forwarding for "sam hain" to point to the cricketer, with a note at the top to this page, rather than the other way around.

Adxm (talk) 10:23, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Secular holiday

"and the two eventually morphed into the secular holiday known as Halloween." for whom?

As it is not a holiday everywhere in the English speaking world, and as it is not general knowledge for whom it is a holiday, I think it needs at least a footnote stating where it is a holiday. -- PBS (talk) 08:15, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Beltane vs. Bealtaine

I realise this has been hashed out a lot, however I propose that the word "Bealtaine" be used instead of "Beltane" as it redirects anyway to the Beltane page, however in the context of an article on Irish History & Mythology, the former is used currently in both English and Irish in Ireland. Beltane is exclusively used by Wiccans to refer to modern practices, which should not be the primary focus of the article as the history and traditional observations are more notable. Wasechun tashunka (talk) 20:35, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Mound of Hostages

The Mound of Hostages aligns with the Samhain sunrise, but the Mound of Hostages aligns with all sunrises between approximately October 15 and December 10 and approximately January 9 and February 20. The cited source does not explain why the Samhain sunrise is special in any way. And it would be identical to a sunrise in February. Further, construction of the Mound of Hostages precedes the Celts actually immigrating to Ireland. The sentence should either be rewritten or removed.Wilkyisdashiznit (talk) 18:37, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

As with the topic below this, you would need a reliable source to back up your claims. As for whether or not it holds true, the mound of the hostages has a passage of 1m (width) x 4m (long), so of course there's some variation to the "date" of the passage being illuminated. However, one must take into consideration the elevation of the hill, the direction at which the passage opening faces, the length and width of the passage, and the fact that the passage is not considered illuminated unless the light leads directly through (without falling on the passage walls). I'm interested in knowing the maths behind your calculations, because I don't see how you've come to those conclusions. For comparison, the passage at Newgrange is illuminated for 3-5 days every year, and the daily variation at the winter solstice is much lesser than that at the "cross-quarter days" (for want of a better word).

As for the Mound of the Hostages pre-dating the Celts, yes, the insular Celts are believed to have arrived only around the 6th Century BCE, but while the article talks about Samhain as a Celtic festival, it refers to the astronomical alignment of the site in the context of a more ancient recognition of the date. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that more than one civilisation held a solar calendar. Wasechun tashunka^HOWL_TRACK 19:56, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

"...the insular Celts are believed to have arrived only around the 6th Century BCE," - that's a way, way outdated hypothesis (like early 20th century!!); the latest studies tends place the development of Celtic language and culture along the Atlantic fringe in the Bronze Age. The Bell Beaker people surely introduced into Britain and Ireland a western dialect of Indo-European that was already trending towards Proto-Celtic and continued contact with people in Western Europe saw the islanders participate in the same process of Celticization that occurred in Iberia and Gaul (and well before the 5th century BC!). Cagwinn (talk) 05:46, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

My apologies, I meant the beginning of the insular Celtic culture, as defined by the change in design of archaeological finds. I wouldn't be too quick to claim that a mass migration "Bell Beaker people" into Ireland occurred, as, apart from that study that pointed to a migration into Britain, the spread of Beaker culture in the rest of Europe is associated with a cultural spread, rather than a population spread. Ireland certainly didn't see the eradication of locals that is believed to have happened in Britain, as Court Cairn burials carried on well into the Beaker period (Herity lists many finds, including "Beaker-hybrids"). At the end of the day, much that I lean towards the Atlantic seaboard theory myself, much of this is speculation, and there are far too many theories, far too different, to be able to draw any definitive conclusions beyond solid evidence to date. Regardless, the matter at hand was that the Mound of the Hostages is seen to have included burials anywhere from 3350 BC up to the iron age, based on finds, and it's impossible to determine for certain which of these burials the construction of the mound is actually associated with, so it remains a stretch to claim that the Celts built it (or aligned it according to a festival). Wasechun tashunka^HOWL_TRACK 19:02, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't know of any modern Celticists who date the beginning of Insular Celtic culture to the 5th century BC. It seems quite likely that it began many centuries earlier. I would place the development of Proto-Celtic on the Continent and in Britain and Ireland in the lead to the transition from the Bronze to Iron Age. Once again, the British and Irish of this time period - or at least the elites - had already been Indo-Eurpeanized via the introduction of the Bell Beaker culture in the Bronze Age (which certainly involved some levels of immigration into Britain and Ireland from the Continent).Cagwinn (talk) 00:58, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps the Celticists you refer to do not date the Insular Celts in Ireland to the 5th century BCE, but among scholars across the board, theories abound as to how to date the Celts, and to defining who or what the Celts even were. The only point of commonality between all theories, however, is that the La Tène culture is in someway Celtic. The earliest La Tène artefact to be excavated on the island of Ireland was a ribbon torc found near Belfast (NMI, R. 2606), dated to 300 BCE at the earliest (and even then, it is given the broad dating of 300 BCE - 100 CE). Anything beyond that, in Ireland, at least, is pure speculation, which is why there are so many contrasting theories on the subject. It is important to always draw the line between what we know, and what has been theorised to be the case. Fact is fact, and theory is speculation until backed by evidence.

As for the Bell Beaker culture, there may have been some immigration into Ireland, but that study does disprove the notion of a Bell Beaker "people". It's a shame the study didn't include Irish sites, but given that burial methods did not change with the introduction of the Beaker culture, it seems highly implausible that it was a mass immigration that brought the Beaker culture with it. On the other hand, it's great that the study didn't make false assumptions that Britain was inclusive of the island of Ireland at the time, as that is a much overlooked fact by many Celticists. The archaeological records just do not support it. Wasechun tashunka^HOWL_TRACK 16:54, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

You are way behind in your research! Have you read anything on the subject written in the past 25 years, or so?? We have moved well beyond tying the origins of Celtic culture to La Tene and Hallstatt! Cagwinn (talk) 17:22, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

I have, and am very familiar with publications to date (both from the fields of history and historical linguistics, as well as comparative linguistics), and I'm aware of the trend to move away from narrow categorisation of the Celts and focus more on the movement of ideas, rather than people. However, most of what comes from this is pure, if informed, speculation (as the invasion theory was), and should not (and I don't believe any scholars are actually guilty of this) be presented as objective fact. I'm always happy to revise my understanding based on genuine findings. Would you be able to provide some citations from established researchers basing their arguments on evidence, as opposed to speculative reconstruction? I have access to any online academic repository, if that helps! Wasechun tashunka^HOWL_TRACK 17:50, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

True Date

Samhain appears to either be a mid-autumnal holiday or a holiday associated with the Pleiades.

If Samhain is reckoned as being a mid-autumnal holiday, its true date would usually be November 6/7 (or 5/6 approximately every fourth year). In 1581, the last year the Julian calendar was used globally, Samhain fell on October 27/28. Samhain fell on October 31/November 1 from 1000-1099 before falling out of sync, because of the error in the Julian calendar. In the 700s, when All Saints' Day was first being celebrated in November, Samhain fell most years on November 2/3 (and November 1/2 every fourth year).

If Samhain is reckoned as being tied to the culmination of the Pleiades, its true date would be approximately November 21. The Pleiades were important stars to the Aztecs, Greeks, and Mayas. Around 992-1064, the Pleiades culminated on what was then November 1 (November 6/7 in the present Gregorian calendar). It should be noted that the Aztecs and Mayas each celebrated the culmination of the Pleiades as a day of the dead.

The current celebration of Samhain on October 31/November 1 is off by at least five days and potentially up to three weeks. This should be indicated somewhere in the article.Wilkyisdashiznit (talk) 20:09, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

You have to cite reliable sources for any serious additions/revisions made to articles (this is how Wikipedia operates - it's an encyclopedia, not a blog). Cagwinn (talk) 23:26, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Actually, I think it's a little bit more complicated than that. You're right about the dates of the Pleiades, and that it would probably have been important for some reason, but we know so little about the Celts that it's pure extrapolation to try to attach definite dates (or meaning) to Celtic festivals based on astronomy, seasonal change or other civilizations' festivals. We know that the word Samhain was attached to something occurring in this general time of year, however, it was also attached to Bealtaine, and that's about it when it comes to the ancient festival. In more recent times, the word has become linked to the month of November (and yes, November is often called the month of the Pleiades), but we have no idea what the actual date of the Autumn Samhain was before this. As Cagwinn said, you're going to have to go by what secondary sources say. Incidentally, this article section does mention something similar, but is completely uncited. Wasechun tashunka^HOWL_TRACK 19:00, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Here is an article from Earth & Sky. [1] As the article discusses, it appears that Samhain drifted into All Hallows' Eve in the 1000-1200 time-frame. When it did so, Samhain appears to have glommed onto All Hallows' Eve or may have been placed there later, because of confusion. In either instance, Samhain's true date is not October 31. An interesting read is how the Aztecs and Mayas messed up their calendars, trying to match the rising of the Pleiades to the same day every year.Wilkyisdashiznit (talk) 09:38, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

What is the oldest reference to the when Samain occurred in the year? BM

Gaelic spelling

Why does Gaelic have to have 2 outdated spellings listed as opposed to just one accurate one? Both the -nn spelling and the -u- spelling are inaccurate, however common the may have been at some point. Neither Irish not Manx list spelling variants so I don't get why Gaelic gets singled out in the Infobox like this? Stick it in the etymology section if you have to but where it is just makes Gaelic look ridiculous. Dwelly and MacBain are more than 100 years old and the Scotsman is many things but not a reliable source for Gaelic. They can't even manage to set character encodings correctly on their pages. That's like citing Dineen for a modern Irish word. Akerbeltz (talk) 20:56, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Support standardising to single, modern spelling as we do with Irish. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 00:22, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Fixed it. @Akerbeltz: take a look at the IPA (and changes in general) and see if it needs fixing. IPA is not really part of my skillset. Tapadh leibh, - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 00:38, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Cheers! Had a look, the IPA is fine. Akerbeltz (talk) 08:57, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

The infobox has a field for alternative names and spellings. Samhuinn was the common Scottish Gaelic spelling for centuries, when the festival was widely celebrated in Scotland. I provided a source showing that Samhuinn is still used by some in Scotland – it's the spelling used by the organizers of the 'Samhuinn Fire Festival', the biggest public celebration of Samhain in Scotland. I also cited Am Faclair Beag, the online Scottish Gaelic dictionary, which gives Samhainn as the staandard modern spelling. The reason there's no alternative Irish spellings given is because there are no alternative Irish spellings. The infobox has a field for "other names", Samhainn and Samhuinn are other names for this festival, therefore they belong in the infobox. It can be noted that the latter is an alternative spelling. ~Asarlaí 20:27, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, was. We don't give all the pre-spelling-reform spellings for contemporary topics in Irish equal weight, even though some festivals and tourist attractions might still use them for an Olde Time Feele for their events. Dictionaries include variations because not all of them have been revised before being put online, and they are used as resources for translating older materials. But these are living languages. We don't list Old English names for holidays, either. The alternate names are in the etymology section, where they belong. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 21:04, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

And you're mis-interpreting the Faclair Beag. The Faclair Beag is two dictionaries, the century-old Dwelly in the right column and the "modern" one in the left. Samhuinn/Samhainn only appears in the right column (i.e. the Dwelly column). And you're really going out on a limb by claiming Samhuinn was the common spelling for centuries. If I put all three spellings into the DASG corpus, Samhainn gets me 37 matches in 30 texts, Samhuinn 65 in 39 and Samhain 50 in 31. At best that makes Samhuinn a competing spelling... Citing the Samhuinn Fire Festival is rather ridiculous, since when do non-Gaelic (or Irish as for that) speaking organisations have such a good track record at Gaelic that we use them to back up stuff? Akerbeltz (talk) 23:40, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Northern/Southern Hemisphere remarks probably should refer to Northern/Southern temperate zones

The harvest, etc. aspects of the holidays are almost surely related to temperate growing seasons.

But more to the point, the solstice (literally "sun-stoppage") is the northernmost/southernmost point of sunrise and can be determined by meticulous day-to-day observation of when the sun "stops and turns away" from the maximum location.

The solstice is the day of longest/shortest daylight but people didn't have clocks with minute hands in ancient times, so they used spatial location instead of measuring time.

Also, the solstice is NOT the day of earliest/latest sunrise. For London, as an example, the latest sunrise this year occurs on Dec 28, not the actual solstice. Slide the bar in this graph: https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/uk/london US Naval Observatory web site had a full page dedicated to explaining the difference, but it seems inaccessible today.

Here in the tropics, the most relevant experience is the Subsolar_point which is when the sun is directly overhead. In the TEMPERATE zones, the sun appears highest in the sky at the summer solstice. However, in the tropics, this event occurs twice, roughly at equal numbers of days before and after the solstice. The solstice itself is not very important. I haven't seen anthropological or archeological evidence that ancient cultures in the tropics made a big deal out of it.

(Erastosthenes knew that the subsolar point at the Tropic of Cancer occurs on the summer solstice and used that fact to estimate the circumference of the earth. Eratosthenes#Measurement_of_the_Earth's_circumference)

Similarly, I doubt the equinox was ever important in tropical cultures. Again, clocks weren't precise, so people in temperate cultures had to determine the vernal and autumnal dates by interpolation between the two solstices.

In sum, discussions of "flipping" the traditional holidays for the southern "hemisphere" should actually refer to flipping them from northern TEMPERATE zones to southern TEMPERATE zones. Martindo (talk) 00:50, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Samhain translating to... Burning Man?

I am not an expert in the subject, but there does seem to be a rather large parallel here; a translation of an ancient spiritual ritual into modern times? Has this been discussed, or is it just ridiculous conjecture on my part?... (Pterantula (talk) 17:22, 31 December 2008 (UTC))

Burning Man has absolutely nothing to do with Samhain.BoyintheMachine (talk) 01:20, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

That's pure conjecture. It would be right at home in the article lmao 24.128.36.188 (talk) 18:51, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Worth adding a section on the Christian myth of Samhain as God of the Dead?

There is/was apparently a widespread myth among Christians that Samhain was the Celtic God of Death. Characters based on Samhain the God of Death appear in pop culture occasionally; for instance:

• Samhain in King's Quest VI is the "Lord of the Dead" (https://kingsquest.fandom.com/wiki/Samhain)
• Samhain in Supernatural is an evil demon connected to Halloween: https://supernatural.fandom.com/wiki/Samhain

Here is a collection of sources (not necessarily the best ones and not necessarily Wikipedia-worthy - I haven't evaluated them deeply) talking about the myth that Samhain was a death god:

• https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2007/10/25/402580/-
• https://www.worldreligionnews.com/religion-news/christianity/these-5-things-about-samhain-are-actually-myths
• https://www.postguam.com/forum/letter_to_the_editor/nothing-wrong-with-dressing-up-as-ghosts-and-goblins/article_3e6c5d6c-fc6c-11e9-91bf-cbe3a94c185f.html

Even if this idea is complete nonsense (as the sources all seem to assert), it seems widespread and significant enough to warrant mentioning? Some exploration of how this myth came about and the impact it had seems like it'd be helpful if possible. (Some sources seem to heavily imply that it was a deliberate attempt by conservative Christians to demonise paganism and frame Halloween as the worship of an evil death god, but I'm not sure how well-supported this is and anyone taking this on would want to take some care to ensure what they write is both true and backed up by good sources.)

ExplodingCabbage (talk) 08:47, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Worth adding a section? No, absolutely not. There was no such widespread belief, and none of those sources can be taken in any way seriously. "The honouring of the death of a god"? Lol, what?! "there is/was no Celtic God of the Dead"? Welsh pagans may disagree. While absolutely there is "anti-Halloween" sentiment from Christians, I've never seen any that included mention of Samhain as a god of any stripe. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:22, 3 May 2022 (UTC)