Talk:Sauce

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Sauces in French Cuisine is Inaccurate

hi this whole section is wraught with errors. "In the early 20th century, the chef Auguste Escoffier updated the classification, replacing sauce Allemande with egg-based emulsions (Hollandaise and mayonnaise), and adding tomate. Escoffier's schema is still taught to chefs today:" No. Escoffier did not replace Allemande with anything else. He did not classify Hollandaise or any of the egg or butter emulsion sauces as a mother sauce. He did not consider Sauce Tomate to be a mother sauce. A number of emulsified sauces are included in Le Guide Culinaire, but under the head of White Sauces. Nsoderblom (talk) 19:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

French Sauce section needs an edit. The mother sauces listed mention sauces Espagnole, Velouté, Béchamel, Tomate, and Hollandaise. This is based off of French chef Auguste Escoffier book Le Guide culinaire. However, this wiki is using the English translation of his original book. The original language and edition of the book do not mention Hollandaise as a mother sauce. The book Larousse Gastronomique by P Montagne also mentions that mayonnaise can be considered a mother sauce for any white and cold sauces. With this information found, the English translation should not be considered. The original French books should be what is considered. Meaning that Hollandaise needs to be removed and replaced with Mayonnaise. This was discovered by Alex Aïnouz; his username being Frenchguycooking. He got hold of the original physical book Larousse Gastronomique at a library and the original Auguste Escoffier book Le Guide culinaire book can be found online here in French. JeffreyV42 (talk) 00:57, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Korean sauce listing should be removed

The "sauces" named (except for soy sauce) are actually thick seasoning pastes. Doenjang, gochujang, and samjang aren't used the way French sauces are used and should probably be listed in a separate category.71.145.145.221 (talk) 03:24, 6 December 2008 (UTC)G. Gannaway 21:23, 05 Dec 2008 (CST)[reply]

A lot of sauce!

Velouté sauce article says the 4 mother sauces are: Velouté, Béchamel, Hollandaise and Espagnole.

This article and roux say: Velouté, Béchamel, Allemande and Espagnole.

Hollandaise sauce article says there are 5 mother sauces.

Can someone clear this sauce thing up? As for 'clear sauces' -- that's another matter entirely. --Anna Frodesiak (talk) 09:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To make matterrs worse (or better?), Category:Mother Sauces lists five sauces including the four you give in the first paragraph and also Tomato Sauce but not Allemande. SimonTrew (talk) 19:02, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sriracha sauce

I remember reading an article in the NY Times showing that the sriracha sauce brand commonly sold with a rooster logo on its containers isn't actually of Indo-Chinese origin but created by immigrants to America. It may have been inspired by seasonings and flavors from the region but if I remember correctly wasn't supposed to be authentic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lambanog (talk • contribs) 07:20, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

béarnaise photo

why is the terrible béarnaise pic being used as the #1 image for 'sauce'? it's not even a real béarnaise with chopped chives or whatever the hell is in there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.8.245.149 (talk) 20:37, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is a horrible picture. It looks like raw egg yolks with chunks floating it them. I'm removing it. --Markjohnson303 (talk) 01:12, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Capital sauce

What about Capital sauce (aka Chinese Capital sauce)? My local Chinese serves this with pork, chicken etc and I find it similar but preferable to sweet n sour...it is slightly spicy and far less sugary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.86.28 (talk) 12:41, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sauce Hollandaise

The picture of the sauce Hollandaise looks like some half melted plastic cheese and represents some kind of the ready made sauces from the super market. The real hollandaise is actually a light sauce. This is just gunk. Would someone please remove the picture? --jeffrey — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.200.24.142 (talk) 10:20, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oldest sauce claim

The claim that Fesenjoon is the oldest sauce in the world [1] seems very doubtful. There is an offline source listed but it is impossible to tell what the source actually is from the citation, so I can't make any judgement as to how reliable it likely is. I seriously doubt that any reliable source would make a bald claim that this sauce is "the world's oldest". "One of the world's oldest", or "oldest sauce known from written records" or "oldest sauce known from archaeological research" or some such maybe, but that's not enough to justify the claim. Meters (talk) 20:52, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

user:Forest90, what is the title of the source you are using for this claim, and exactly what does it say? There is an "Amirkabir Journal of Science and Technology". Is that teh journal you mean? If so you will need to provide the volume number and the paper title. Meters (talk) 21:02, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

agree with you

Hi , I'm completely agree with you about my manuscript title. If you let me I'll change it and put in sauce article with this title: "oldest sauce known from archaeological research" I was thinking about my first manuscript and it's title...this title was'nt good enough...I change my title and hope you accept my apology because I'm a beginner and need to time for education.Thank you my friend — Preceding unsigned comment added by Forest90 (talk • contribs) 12:30, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Forest90 Can you point us to an online source for this reference? It's looking like it might have been cited incorrectly -- the title seems to be "Persian Magazine" and the journal seems to be "Amir Kabir, pocket books" which doesn't sound like the title of a scholarly journal, and you're mentioning a manuscript, which is a word often used for not-yet-published writings, but the date is given as 2001. Can you tell us what the title of the manuscript or article is and what the title of the book or journal or magazine it was published in is? valereee (talk) 16:00, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

valereee Hi,I'll find a good source for my manuscript

Saucy

Reading over this article, I got a bit upset when I realised that no one had gone ahead and boldly created a History Of Sauce section. I would be fascinated by when the first Sauce originated. Were there sources in antiquity, or did they emerge in the Middle Ages? How did the Modern Sauce come to be... the one cheekily enjoyed as a pungent garnish? Since when have they been presented in a side dish and spooned over vegetables? I am deeply interested in our readers adventuring deep into historical aspects of saus. What about the Sachet of Sauce? It's the way I eat my sauce and it's barely mentioned in this article. Being a sauce hound, believe me when I say I was flummoxed by the general lack of this page's sorce-based historical coverage. I think new information added as a result of these comments should be spun off into its own article, ideally entitled 'Sauce through the ages', but at the very least should get appreciation as a section as part of the Sauce article. On a side note, I am also deeply concerned about the opening sentence of Saws which claims they add "flavor, moisture, and visual appeal to a dish". I object to this. It does not account for the profound, deep-seated personal pleasure I experience upon the arrival in my Gob of a spoonful of Scrumptious Spicy Sauce. Hope to hear a rapid response which concerns this pressing issue. Buster Reynolds (talk) 21:08, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sauce as a joke

Sauce is used as a joke in YouTube poops Pogeons (talk) 01:22, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

French Mother Sauces article

Suggest French Mother Sauces is linked to in the "French" section of this article. Then again, it seems to stem from original research by a youtuber, which may violate WP:NOR. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.69.173.193 (talk) 19:10, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The God's did not invent mother sauces, he "re-discovered" old references in French literature and transcribed/translated the French portions. My understanding is that this is fine WP:TRANSCRIPTION. Of course the interpretation of the sources should not be ambiguous, which can be checked by others as long as the text is properly referenced. EV1TE (talk) 20:25, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Considering that "the YouTuber" signed his edits "FrenchGuyCooking" shouldn't he be referred to as such, not "a/the YouTuber". Calling him such seems like an insult to my eye. 174.3.15.151 (talk) 21:27, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that FrenchGuyCooking found that the English understanding of mother sauces is based off of translation issues from Escoffier's work. Considering that the mother sauce section is based on our Escoffier a revision of Hollandaise -> Mayonnaise may be in order. Removing the commentary would be necessary for that section though. Maerlon0 (talk) 22:55, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

He speculated that the English understanding of mother sauces is based off of translation issues from Escoffier's work. This is a lot of original research. Modern sources are pretty consistent. --hippo43 (talk) 23:05, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ignoring the speculation part, Wikipedia does allow conflicting sources WP:THISORTHAT . Although, I am for the "new" information, I do agree that only info to the effect of that difference in the two Escoffier translations should be mentioned. However, that difference should bear mentioning Heliatrope Fish (talk) 00:42, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Modern sources are pretty consistent." I do not see any of the consistent sources you seem to know of cited in the French mother sauces section. The only two cited sources are Le Guide Culinaire (ref 4) and its English translation (ref 5), which presents this exact conflict. Reference 6 is to a recipetips.com which does not pass WP:RS. Removing the commentary is necessary, but removing the conflict discourages legitimate attempt at source checking, which has apparently been a problem reported on this Talk page since 2008. EdLeMa (talk) 01:26, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I recently watched the video and jumped over here. While this is WP:YOUTUBE-sourced information and WP:OR, I think a compelling case can be made for including this information as a series of notes on the article. The Youtuber did their research (see the sources they cited) and was apparently in contact with a scholar, so leaving a note that "According to some translations, Escoffier considered X" is not unacceptable. SamHolt6 (talk) 02:28, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's not "according to some translations". Escoffier's English-language book is clear in both the contents and the text; it lists the 5 sauces now widely known as mother sauces, which regularly appear in modern sources.

The article reflects Escoffier's different books, his comments on mayonnaise, and other chefs' lists. Right now I think it is well-sourced and does not contain OR. --hippo43 (talk) 03:17, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There is no reference to the source of this claim "In A Guide to Modern Cookery, the abridged English translation of Escoffier's Guide, he added Hollandaise, resulting in the following list of the five fundamental "mother sauces" used today". What is the source that Escoffier added Hollandaise and it was not the translater that made a misstake? The book was not translated by Escoffier according to this wiki article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_guide_culinaire — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.232.63.24 (talk) 04:05, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Right, conducted some scholarly digging on the topic. In my search I was not able to find any mention of Escoffier's work being mistranslated, and so it seems like Frenchguycooking's WP:OR has no predecessors and is an entirely novel idea. I also conducted a search for mentions of mayonnaise being one of the five "mother" sauces, finding no dead-on sources. This search turned up two sources that include Mayonnaise in the list of 5 sauces, one being a Korean source (which I cannot reliably translate) and the other being this article which does not arrive at that conclusion itself, rather attributing the information of this book, which sadly does not have a preview. While we can assume these sources are reliable and that the authors did their due diligence, we cannot really say their information is WP:DUE given most lists exclude mayonnaise sauce. As such, I think mention of sauce mayonnaise as a mother sauce should be omitted at this time, with the asterisk that hopefully Frenchguycooking's coverage generates more scholarly research on the topic - verbatim translation of the original French to English implies he has a point. SamHolt6 (talk) 04:55, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Scholarly digging", or 5 minutes on Google? --hippo43 (talk) 05:46, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Various engines provided via The Wikipedia Library Card - Jstor normally provides some results but not in this case. Let me know if you find any corroborating material. SamHolt6 (talk) 05:56, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, looking at a later English translation of his work that was made after the 4th edition, Hollandaise is not listed as one of the basic sauces. It would be worth looking at the original French texts of the 2nd through 4th editions to see if Hollandaise is or is not included in that list, and if not it would indeed seem likely to be an issue related to producing the 1907 English edition, at least from a historical perspective. --Omnitographer (talk) 07:56, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We have looked at them. Hollandaise is not in that list in the French versions. But trying to guess why would be OR. -hippo43 (talk) 07:59, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Does the why matter so much as the fact that they aren't, eg, why is the English translation with 5 basic sauces treated as the authoritative source instead of any of the French texts with 4 basic sauces? If we're saying that this book is the source for why X is or isn't a basic sauce, then the original version and its later editions aught to be the source, no? Considering the English translation disagrees with the the French texts that came before and after I'm not sure it's as reliable a source as the original French text, and citing the original text would be preferred under Wikipedia:RSUE, that the English source in this case may not be of equal quality to the French edition, at least from a historical perspective.. --Omnitographer (talk) 11:52, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is a section on French sauces, the works in French from France should be the authoritative sources, not abridged translations into English. What do current books in French from France say? Whatever the translator did to add hollandaise, it is a difference from the original work, so can be stated to not occur in the French-language edition but from the English-language edition (on French cooking). -- 67.70.26.89 (talk) 21:31, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Omnitographer. Considering we are using Escoffier as the authority I feel that using his own words in his own language supersedes the English translation. Maerlon0 (talk) 11:08, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree with what Omnitographer is saying, taking the English language sources as law over french language sources with regards to French Sauces is incredibly anglocentric on a francocentric topic. Xander11012 (talk) 01:25, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, the German translation (Escoffier: Kcohkunstführer, 15. Edition, Nikol) agrees with the French version - 4 hot mother sauces plus Mayonnaise as a cold mother sauce. Stmoebius (talk) 10:46, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree with Omnitographer, considering even Escoffier's 'very last' publication 'Ma Cuisine 2 500 recettes' in 1934 -just a year before his death, also mentions mayo but not hollandaise as a sauce mère and the same holds true of the French editions of 'Guide cuilinaire' make for a very interesting situation. I wonder if it's worth putting to vote. Arguably it wouldn't make too much of a difference but if an unbiased mention of that fact can be made, there is exists the slightest chance that every extra bit of coverage may help further inspire more people to make forays into this odd quirk of history. Also I don't believe that mentioning of the controversial mayo needs to deny the 4+Hollandaise list. Considering that list holds reasonable acceptance, it very well shouldn't be redacted Heliatrope Fish (talk) 08:40, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We should fix this. If the English translation is inaccurate, then it should be disregarded. That seems pretty clear to me. --Icil34 (talk) 23:23, 19 January 2021 (UTC)Icil34[reply]

I've added sources at French mother sauces. --hippo43 (talk) 06:02, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Very Euro-American centric

I'm going to try making some edits to reorganize the sections by geography. Currently, "Asia" (i.e. the place where the majority of the world's people, cultures, and cuisines are...) is one section, while Britain (i.e. the small island in the North Atlantic famous for bad food) has its own section. China is the size of Europe and is far more varied in terms of cuisine has only one bullet point, and it even references an American sauce. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darrylsnow (talk • contribs) 06:35, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is the French Wikipedia article wrong then?

The French article on sauces doesn't put Hollandaise in the list of mother sauces. So are the French wrong here, or is there a real possibility that the English translation is just wrong - and hence we should use the Original Source as leading. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauce --94.157.97.198 (talk) 14:24, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The french article is correct, the french youtuber Alex (FrenchGuyCooking on Wikipedia) did some Original research and found that the English translation incorrectly stated the mother sources. Here is the video he posted about his research: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMXvAjH0Nco Xander11012 (talk) 01:27, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Argentina is a Latin American country

Just think that in the cuisines section Argentinian Chimichurri should not be its own section. It should go under the other Latin American foods. Celtizaya (talk) 18:34, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]