Talk:Swami Vivekananda/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Grandiose (talk · contribs) 11:13, 15 June 2012 (UTC) I'll be taking the review.[reply]

Opening comments

Looking good, save for a few small things:

There's a couple of external links in the main body text, which should be avoided.

Can you please mention the section(s)? I actually can't find EL in article body. I removed few months ago, but it seems I had missed one or two! --Tito Dutta ✉ 11:33, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake, they're interwiki links. I'm struggling to tie down a particular guideline on their use, but it seems some might be better done with information boxes. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 12:27, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not really happy with the layout of the "As a wandering monk in India (1888–1893)" bump up the headers or remove them (or reduce their number) I think.

Changed to heading 3 (following other sections of the article)! --Tito Dutta ✉ !

If "Narenda" is a given name, why is he referred to as it t? Normally a family name would be more appropriate, but I'm not certain for Indian names. Also, there's rather inconsistent usage of names anyway which should be looked at.

Narendra Nath Datta– Ramakrishna and his friends used to casually call him Naren and generally he was referred to as Narendra or Narendra Nath before taking Sanyasa. Generally in India a person is not called by his family name if it is very common. Datta/Dutta is a common surname (even I have that surname). We have tried to follow reliable biographies here. Let me know if you think we need to change something! --Tito Dutta ✉ 11:33, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I notice it changes half-way through. I'll accept "Narenda" before this, and "Vivekananda" after (make that consistent); it should also not change before it has been explained (which it does by a couple of paragraphs at the moment). Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 12:27, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In lead (or beginning of a section) we have used the name Vivekananda. Before 1887 his name was not Vivekananda, so in these sections sub section we have tried to use the name Narendra/Naren (Ramakrishna did not know that his name is going to be Vivekananda). But after taking Sanyasa (when his name was changed), we have tried not to use the name Narendra. Let me know what you think! --Tito Dutta ✉ 13:08, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You use "Vivekananda" before his change of name, e.g. Vivekananda and other Ramakrishna's disciples took care of him during his final days. You also use his full name "Swami Vivekananda" after this, e.g. Swami Vivekananda's ideas were admired by scholars.

Correct! I have made some changes in this edit. Do I need to add the name Narendra Nath Datta in at least one image captions of these sections like Swami Vivekananda (Narendranath Datta) and other disciples of Ramakrishna in Baranagar Math, in 1887? --Tito Dutta ✉ 00:10, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Haven't looked at all the images but File:Bhuvaneshwari-Devi-1841-1911.jpg needs a US copyright tag (probably {{PD-1923}}). Might be the same for others.

Done Will add in other images (where it'll be applicable) very soon! --Tito Dutta ✉ 11:21, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

DoneI have revised all images of the article. In all images Pd-old or Pd-1923 is added! --Tito Dutta ✉ 12:04, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Swami Tathagatananda, a senior monk of the Ramakrishna Order, and the Head of Vedanta Society, New York wrote as follows:" no quotation follows?

Done I have added a quote from his essay from Vedanta Kesari June 2011! --Tito Dutta ✉ 12:04, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reference #143 needs more information, might be the case with others

Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 11:13, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

DoneAdded reference from a page of Government of Gujarat website! --Tito Dutta ✉ 12:15, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments

Examine hyphen/dash usage as a point of grammar.
... Shri Pranab Mukherjee has approved in principle Swami Vivekananda Values Education Project at the cost of 100 crore with the objectives like – 1) Involving the youth through competitions, essays, discussions and study circles. 2) Publishing Swami Vivekananda's complete work in different languages etc. is a non-encyclopedic tone.

DoneDeleted honorific Shri, slightly rewritten, removed numbering, added INRConvert template, tried to use encyclopedic tone! --Tito Dutta ✉ 13:03, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Have a look at refs #1, #23, #67 (you don't have to keep their errors), #81, #150.

Can you please specify the problems with these references? In this version, I have fixed #67 (which in the given version is #69). For #23 (which remains #23), I have added publication date (any other error?). For #1 and #81 (which are #1 and #83, respectively, in this version), what needs to be fixed? I do not know which is #150 in the present version. Can you please tell which ref (that was #150 before) you suggested to fix and why? Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:13, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

During his journeys he is referred to as "he" rather than with his name rather too many times.

(edit conflict)

Done Will revise once more! --Tito Dutta ✉ 12:44, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ref #37 doesn't support the text in front of it (it lacks several details); if this information is verified by the latter citations then I don't see the need for #37?

Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 12:27, 15 June 2012 (UTC

After doing a short study I am little bit confused here– this article clearly tells Vivekananda first heard about Ramakrishna in his English class. in this article,, it is mentioned – professor was explaining trance. In a newspaper article we can find Hastie told Narendra to visit Ramakrishna in Dakshineswar. He was lecturing on the poem, the given citation in article shows that. The only thing which has not been mentioned anywhere that Hastie was lecturing on poet's poet's nature-mysticism. Any comment? Do we need to collect citation for this? Or we can read these words! --Tito Dutta ✉ 12:57, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Put the references at the end of the paragraph and remove any information not contained in any of them. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 13:01, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done. --Tito Dutta ✉ 13:33, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

File:Ramakrishna.jpg doesn't list a death date for the photographer. On what basis do you believe life+70n applies? The 70 takes us back to 1941; the photographer would have had to be young and lived a while but it's not into certain zone. Perhaps a different route of copyright would be appropriate? Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 13:01, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed license to PD-1923 and PD-India (this media was published before 1923 for PD-1923 and before 60 years for PD India) --Tito Dutta ✉ 13:17, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

1 citation needed tag I've added.

Done Added this --Tito Dutta ✉ 13:33, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Could you have a thorough check for small problems like 1888,Vivekananda and ^{[144] [145]}?

I have done it! --Tito Dutta ✉ 23:35, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Date styles are inconsistent throughout (D/M/Y, M/D/Y).

Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 21:42, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Using a script I have changed all dates to DMY formats in one click. The worst part of this script is it changes everything to DMY (including reference dates, access dates, and image filenames). A image file was broken after using this script, I have corrected in this edit. I think it is okay now, please have a look. --Tito Dutta ✉ 23:35, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have double-checked dates in quotes too, because there were chances this script would modify dates there too. I have not found any problem! I have checked MOS:TIES (British English) too, there is not any problem in spelling! --Tito Dutta ✉ 23:50, 15 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

More comments

I've given the article a copyedit and have a couple of questions. (Please look over the edits to ensure that they are correct; also I suspect you speak Indian English or similar and it may be useful to know where this differs from international English for the future.)

to whom the Swami wrote (and many others): "Swami" is a title, yes? Stick to Vivekananda, I think. We generally avoid titles, and certainly where like this they are unaccompanied with the name.
supported the Math had expired: "expired"? Do you mean dead or did they merely leave or stop giving money?

There was a minor spelling mistake (Narenda>>Narendra), I have corrected! --Tito Dutta ✉ 04:05, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I read the article Pranab Mukherjee but am unclear what a "Union Finance Minister" is. What is a "Union" position?

You can read: Ministry_of_Finance_(India)#Organizational_Structure! --Tito Dutta ✉ 04:05, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Union government means federal or central government.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:00, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of citations needed where I've put the tags.

This was a badly written portion, there were multiple external links in article body which we had to remove. The two institutions mentioned there should not be primary examples. I have removed these two lines, in (near) future we wish to start a new article on "Influence of Swami Vivekananda", there we'll add a paragraph or two on "Influence of Swami Vivekananda on education and educational institutions" --Tito Dutta ✉ 04:19, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The paragraph at the top of "Works" needs rewriting; probably. I doubt you'll be able to source it the way it's phrased at the moment.

I tried to re-work the paragraph. Added some context. Added a reference for four types of men discussed.--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:00, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the "Chronology" section as superfluous; many other articles could be represented in this format and it's not been done. Also there were some statements that didn't appear in the main text, and some which were misleading by reason of their brevity as part of the chronology (whereas they were well explained in the text).

It was inspired by Winston_Churchill#Ancestors and another chronology which I can not not remember at this moment! Chronology might be helpful for long biographies, because many people don't like long essays and they read this summarized chronology.--Tito Dutta ✉ 04:19, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can't easily verify the sources. Could you type up the couple of lines from a book for two references? I've had a few problems with close paraphrasing in topics like this and therefore I have to check. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 18:57, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please mention which information you want to verify, I'll try to do something. In Swami_Vivekananda#Bibliography, you'll get some full books, that might be helpful! --Tito Dutta ✉ 04:05, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Reference 10 (same as #3, by the way):

Article: "His father Vishwanath Datta (the only son of Durga Charan) was an attorney of Calcutta High Court."
Source: "His father, Biswanath Datta, a lawyer by profession, ..."

Conclusion: elements missing; name suggests that a different source was used. If so, it should be added at the end of that sentence, since this source is given there. (No close paraphrasing concerns.

It definitely needs some attention. I do not have Amiya Sen's book. Have you found it online? See this discussion, where we discussed o the spelling. I can source/re-source every word of this line very easily. But, I have doubt on the spelling Vishwanath Datta or Viswanath Datta? I'll try to check it in some notable biographies and source (and if necessary correct it) ASAP. --Tito Dutta ✉ 00:12, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have given a support there! Ref 09 can also be used as a ref there (page 01-02). Let me know if I need to use it! --Tito Dutta ✉ 00:18, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Biswanath Datta is definitely wrong spelling! I have confirmed Vishwanath Datta spelling is correct. We have this person's signature too, but, we have not added it in article, because father's signature is completely irrelevant! --Tito Dutta ✉ 00:34, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Reference 131:

Article: "Vivekananda died at ten minutes past nine p.m. on 4 July 1902 while he was meditating. According to his disciples, this was Mahasamadhi."
Source: "On the morning of 4 July 1902, when he entered mahasamadhi, Swami Vivekananda... only after his passing away..."

Conclusion: element missing (time). Ditto above.

Same above! Will add sources within few hours! --Tito Dutta ✉ 00:12, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have added this page as citation there! It supports that Swami Vivekanandadied at ten past nine on 04 July, 1902! But, it does not support that his disciples called it Mahasamadhi (Mahasamadhi word is mentioned there, but it is not told, his disciples called it Mahasamadhi. I do not have book of Sen, if it is not told there, we need to make some more changes there! --Tito Dutta ✉

That's two out of two with verifiability problems, can you please fix these and have a look at some others that might be troublesome? Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 15:01, 17 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One more:

Article: "Due to the close association between the two, both have their headquarters at Belur, near Calcutta. This was the beginning of an organised social and religious movement to help the masses through educational, cultural, medical and relief work."
Source: "... This was the beginning of an organized movement to help the suffering masses through educational, cultural, medical and relief work."

Conclusion: I don't understand the "both" part, so it was a bit difficult to verify that. The rest is WP:Close paraphrasing and must be avoided. You really have to go away and work through some others by yourself on this. I have checked three sources now, all problematic. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 10:57, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch! Both Ramakrishna Math and Ramakrishna Mission! I don't know what is close paraphrasing in Wikipedia! The portion needs to be re-written! the reason of making Belur their head-quarter was not any close association, they had only that land at that time (so, there was not any other option), this is misleading, actually it is very difficult to summarize everything in 2-3 lines, we can write a long article on this. Vivekananda did not have money to buy land. Miss Müller etc donated money for Belur Math foundation! I'll try to make some changes after you help me to understand close paraphrasing. Also see the way it is written in Belur_Math#History! --Tito Dutta ✉ 11:22, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I've linked it above. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 11:31, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have rewritten it! --Tito Dutta ✉ 11:41, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My point is that WP:Close paraphrasing tends to be a repeated thing in an article. I'd appreciate if you could act under your own steam and seek out and eliminate these sourcing problems, rather than wait for me to flag them up one-by-one. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 12:43, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am/'ll be doing! --Tito Dutta ✉ 12:51, 18 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Update

This is a big task and I note that no changes have been made to the article in ten days in this regard. Sourcing/verifiability is difficult to add back in like this; it takes time. For that reason I'm failing the article. Feel free to renominate once these issues have been fully addressed – across the whole article. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 15:09, 28 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]