Talk:The Livingston Group

Lobbying for Turkey about Armenian Genocide

(Request for Comment has concluded.) VonBrunmarck 18:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Sh000gun has repeatedly attempted to remove references to the Livingston Group's controversial work lobbying the US government on Turkey's behalf. See talk page on the Bob Livingston entry on attempts (on that page and this one) to remove uncomfortable facts about the Livingston Group's work with the Republic of Turkey.

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I raise the same question here that I raise on the Bob Livingston talk page--why is the content related to the Livingston Group's lobbying for Turkey being removed? I am willing to work to find alternate wording (under the condition that it doesn't obfuscate the facts, specifically by leaving out the fact that Livingston's lobbying pertains to the Armenian genocide). At this point I don't know what about the passage is triggering its removal. Please do not revert it again without explaining this, either in a comment or here, and without proposing a compromise. Otherwise, I'll be forced to request comments and/or a third opinion. VonBrunmarck 14:26, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

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Sure enough, the passage about the Armenian genocide has been changed again, without comment. This time the passage has been changed to include factually incorrect information. I will not change the page any more; instead I am creating a request for comment.

The new sentence says: "The focus of this lobbying is on US relations as they pertain to international and historical issues affecting the Republic of Turkey, which denies that the aftermath of WWl in Turkey constituted anything other than open warfare."

In fact, the "aftermath of WW1" is not at issue. The early massacres of the Armenian Genocide started in the late 19th Century. The Genocide is typically regarded as reaching a peak between April 24, 1915 and 1917--still squarely within the years of WWI. As written, this sentence is mystifying anyway, because Sh000gun has removed any reference to Turkey's denial of the Armenian Genocide (though s/he apparently forgot to remove the footnote to an article on the L.G.'s Genocide lobbying, unlike over on the Bob Livingston page where the fn. was deleted). As written, the reader is left puzzled by Turkey's denial that these events "constituted anything other than open warfare." The reader is left to wonder what *other* than "open warfare" the events might constitute.

Here is--yet again--my own suggestion.

One important client of The Livingston Group is the Republic of Turkey. The focus of this lobbying is on US relations as they pertain to international and historical issues affecting the Republic of Turkey, who gave The Livingston Group over 13 million dollars since 2000 to lobby the American government. Critics contend that this lobbying is a form of genocide denial, --Turkey does not recognize the slaughter of up to 1.5 million Armenians in 1915 as a genocide, and does not want the American Government to recognize these events as genocide either.

(Also see the talk page of Bob Livingston for a similar debate.) VonBrunmarck 16:02, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment for RFC. This looks like simple denial of an embarrassing event. I support your version. This kind of thing should not be downplayed. Eiler7 16:36, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree per Eiler7, assuming that the sources are credible. Sourced criticism should not be removed without very good cause. Ngchen 17:42, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Include the information. This seems to be well-sourced information that is extremely relevant. Removal with no stated reason seems like a clear attampt to whitewash the article. I think it definitely belongs in the Livingston Group article, but I'm not sure that it is appropriate to also include it in the Bob Livingston article, since it seems to revolve solely around the organization's activities rather than his personal activities. — DIEGO ^talk 15:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments, all. Respectfully, I think the information is actually relevant to Livingston's personal page as well. If you follow the second of the sourced links, you will see that Livingston traded on his own personal familiarity to former colleagues in Congress in lobbying on Turkey's behalf. In particular, he made and distributed a video to congress members that features him sitting in a library making the case against genocide recognition, 1-on-1 to the camera. Turkey hires people like Livingston (and Dick Gephardt, too ... another former congressman) to lobby precisely because of their personal connections in congress. Since the Livingston Group (in this case) relies so strongly on Bob Livingston's personal standing among former colleagues, it seems reasonable to include the information on Livingston's personal page as well.

I'm open to sound arguments to the contrary, if one is offered here--but so far as I can tell right now, the info does seem relevant to both pages. VonBrunmarck 18:22, 9 October 2007 (UTC)