Talk:Tibet House

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The allegation from IWPCHI is a scurrilous and baseless political attack against Tibet House New York

I inserted a warning template. The whole article aims to harm Tibet House NY. It was NOT created by the CIA as the article wrongly claims! Such claims are not at all substantiated or based on WP:RS. Kt66 (talk) 01:45, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Having a closer look today, the dubious changes were made User:IWPCHI. He seems not to be able to read the quoted document and mixed all things up to come up with his own theory that Tibet House NY was created by the CIA. But what he might actually mean is the Tibet Office formerly in NYC next to the UNO and now in DC. So User:IWPCHI doesn't know what he is talking about nor can he read documents. Some worked already on the text and I worked now briefly too on it, basically reverting it to the version as of 19:20, 21 April 2015. Of course WP:RS can and should be quoted but they cannot be misrepresented, taken out of context while embedding personal theories in it. --Kt66 (talk) 12:20, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

PS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Dalai_Lama#CIA_Tibetan_program & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program seem to be well referenced and presented. Kt66 (talk) 14:05, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is absurd of User:IWPCHI to try to pretend that a CIA program set up in 1964 that was definitively terminated when Nixon and Kissinger effected a rapprochement with China in the period up to 1972, was responsible for both founding and funding Tibet House which was established no less than 23 years later (and a full 15 years after the termination of the program). Furthermore Tibet House has never been an advocacy group but is a cultural organisation. This is vandalism and I applaud the anonymous person who deleted the bizarre allegation. If s/he had not already deleted it I would not have hesitated to have do so myself. I have put this article on my watch list. MacPraughan (talk) 19:50, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You claim that the CIA is no longer engaged in supporting the Dalai Lama or the anticommunist opposition in Tibet; this is not true. The CIA has historically been and continues to be deeply involved in this issue. Also, the documents we cited regarding the establishment of "Tibet Houses" by CIA are genuine and indicate that the continued use by the "new" Tibet House of the old name is no accident. Certainly, if the new "Tibet House" wanted to distance itself from the old, discredited, CIA-financed "Tibet House" it would have changed the name. If you have documents that can prove your argument, please post them in the article or post links to them here so we can review them. Thank you. IWPCHI (talk) 18:17, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is true that the CIA ceased its Tibet program (initiated in 1964 as per your document) more than 44 years ago. It is common knowledge, and there are any number of reports and publications to refer to, that confirm beyond doubt that the well-known CIA's 1960s Tibet support program that you refer to (as if it is something new you have discovered!) lasted no longer than a decade and was totally ceased when Nixon visited China to recruit them in the cold war against Russia, and got China accepted in the UN Security Council as a permanent member in 1972. How could anyone not be aware of this?

Since you object to this and demand proof, here are some examples of third-party evidence that is reliable, authentic and from independent sources, which disprove your absurd statements. Please try to try to refute them, if you can, by showing what can be judged to be more reliable information as your evidence to show all these following reports, books and articles are false and wrong:

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/02/world/world-news-briefs-dalai-lama-group-says-it-got-money-from-cia.html. :::https://web.archive.org/web/20080321053809/http://members.aol.com/superogue/intro.htm.

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2013/04/09/cias-cancelled-war-tibet/

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/12/31/dalai-lamas-escape-from-tibet-and-the-cias-role.html.

Since the present Tibet House was set up in 1987 as it is for the first time, being founded and funded by private donations, and you can go check the records there, I regret to inform you that now the onus is very much upon you, as the accuser, to show documentary evidence that support your allegations, that the CIA Tibet support program lasted longer than 1972. If you can do that, then we shall see, but otherwise I am afraid your theory holds no water and cannot be substantiated, therefore, being a scurrilous and slanderous lie, it cannot be posted on the organisation's Wikipedia article, and if you re-post it, it will be immediately deleted and you will face being blocked as a vandal. Thank you for your comprehension. MacPraughan (talk) 21:42, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:IWPCHI claims "You claim that the CIA is no longer engaged in supporting the Dalai Lama or the anticommunist opposition in Tibet; this is not true." Please, User:IWPCHI, give evidence – using WP:RS – for your innovative claim that the CIA program didn’t cease. To get an overview about the facts you can start with this WP article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program --Kt66 (talk) 02:28, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, I get it, User:IWPCHI is confused. He is confusing Tibet House with the Office of Tibet, New York Office of Tibet a Non-Profit Organization that used to be at Address: 241 E 32nd St, New York, NY 10016, United States, Phone:+1 212-213-5010. This was set up in the 60s with the CIA funds for the purposes explained in the CIA memo - Advocacy for Tibetan Independence - and it continued to operate for many years after the CIA program ended, funded by the Office of the Dalai Lama and donations and funds raised in the USA. The representative used to be Mr Rinchen Dharlo and after that it was Mr Tashi Wangdi. It was the office of the Dalai Lama's Representative (they couldn't very well call him "Ambassador of Tibet") and it helped with communications between the USA and the Dalai Lama in India, and organised his teaching tours and visits and so forth.

A few years ago, this office moved from New York to Washington to be nearer to the seat of Government, as per this notice: http://tibetoffice.org/media-press/news/the-office-of-tibet-moved-from-new-york-to-washington-dc. So this explains the confusion of User:IWPCHI with Tibet House. All is clear now! Thanks for checking it out. MacPraughan (talk) 21:59, 28 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We have today discovered that "Tibet House US" is an officially sanctioned and licensed affiliate of the "original" "Tibet House" founded in New Delhi, India - in 1965! - almost certainly at least partially with CIA funds, as outlined in the 1964 CIA documents. If true, "Tibet House US" is officially license by the CIA-baked "Tibet House" New Delhi. That's how this front group hides its true affiliation. "Tibet House - US" hides the fact that it applied for and recieved permission from "Tibet House New Delhi" for right to use "Tibet House" name. "Office of Tibet" must be the original CIA-funded US operation. See http://tibethouse.in/content/about and http://tibethouse.in/content/tibet-house-associates IWPCHI (talk) 14:45, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

?????????? The link you have sent contradicts what you say. It says "Tibet House US was the first institution recognized formally as an ‘Associate’ of Tibet House (New Delhi). Professor Robert Thurman, co-founder/ director of Tibet House US signed a Memorandum of Understanding in 2003." Please explain how a connection you appear to say was established in 1965, can be proved by a totally new affiliation agreement that was approved and signed in 2003, by a Tibet House NY that was legally created as an entity only in 1987. Thank you for your efforts but sorry to say, the more you try to find things prove your theory, the more it becomes disproven - risible - and absurd. So please keep on trying! MacPraughan (talk) 17:38, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV

Also the guidelines of WP:NPOV are violated, that’s why I included a NPOV template. An article written from NPOV does not prove anything. It lists different views in NPOV manner without favouring one. Who ever wrote this piece had clearly an agenda in mind. Sentences like "From the evidence inherent in the preceding document it is clear that, in fact, Tibet House US Cultural Center of H. H. the Dalai Lama was not founded in 1987 by Columbia University professor Robert Thurman, actor Richard Gere and modern composer Philip Glass (among others) …" or "However, as the founding documents from the CIA in 1964 prove, in fact the actual purpose of the Tibet Houses …" are not NPOV at all Kt66 (talk) 01:55, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Could be Office of Tibet in New York and Geneva, which were wrongly called House of Tibet ? :World News Briefs; Dalai Lama Group Says It Got Money From C.I.A., The New York Times, 2 Octobre 1998 . --Rédacteur Tibet (talk) 22:57, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with you. It was quite obvious that the CIA doc is referring to the Tibetan government in exile's Office of Tibet, not Tibet House in NY or Tibet Bureau in Geneva. For the record: There was a reference to Tibet House in a 1964 Central Intelligence Agency "Memorandum for the Special Group," which documented a projected budget meeting for a Cold War program focused on political action, propaganda, and paramilitary efforts aimed at sustaining the concept of an autonomous Tibet both within Tibet and among foreign nations. While the document's scope was extensive, a reference to Tibet House is limited and somewhat ambiguous: "Tibet Houses in New York, Geneva, and [less than 1 line of source text not declassified]" as a budget line item of $75,000 for half a year", with an explanatory paragraph.^[1]

This isolated reference in the available historical documentation does not provide conclusive evidence of the CIA's involvement in the existing Tibet Houses. The context of the 1964 meeting memorandum suggests that these were planned or proposed establishments.

This is supported by several facts: there was never a cultural preservation nonprofit Tibet House in Geneva, only the government office, Tibet Bureau; Tibet House US in New York was founded in 1987; the main period of active CIA involvement with Tibet was from 1957 to 1969; the program was completely terminated in 1972, coinciding with President Nixon's visit to China to establish closer relations; and in 1998, the Tibetan government-in-exile stated that the CIA subsidy was "spent on setting up offices in Geneva and New York and on international lobbying," the Tibet Bureau in Geneva and the Office of Tibet in Washington D.C., formerly in New York.^[2]^[3] Ogmany (talk) 01:44, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is no way to know for sure. Right now we do not say that the houses were funded directly in wikivoice but only quote the document. It's not mentioned in the first paragraph, and responses or denials from the Tibetan side are included. I am satisfied with this. Vacosea (talk) 20:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tibet House New Delhi

Hi, I'm wondering why my edit to update the URL that points to Tibet House New Delhi was reverted. It was done by an anonymous user, so I cannot ask them directly. Why is an archive version of the old page preferable to the current address? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matiasw (talk • contribs) 00:00, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

^ "337. Foreign Relations of the United States, 1964–1968, Volume XXX, China, Memorandum for the Special Group". Office of the Historian Department of State. January 9, 1964. The Agency is supporting the establishment of Tibet Houses in [less than 1 line of source text not declassified] Geneva, and New York City. The Tibet Houses are intended to serve as unofficial representation for the Dalai Lama to maintain the concept of a separate Tibetan political identity. The Tibet House in New York City will work closely with Tibetan supporters in the United Nations, particularly the Malayan, Irish, and Thai delegations. e. Tibet Houses in New York, Geneva, and [less than 1 line of source text not declassified] ( 1/2 year )—$ 75,000
^ "The Shadow Circus: The CIA in Tibet". International Campaign for Tibet. September 13, 2018. Retrieved 12 October 2024.
^ "World News Briefs; Dalai Lama Group Says It Got Money From C.I.A." New York Times. The Associated Press. October 2, 1998. Retrieved 12 October 2024.

[1] "337. Foreign Relations of the United States, 1964–1968, Volume XXX, China, Memorandum for the Special Group". Office of the Historian Department of State. January 9, 1964. The Agency is supporting the establishment of Tibet Houses in [less than 1 line of source text not declassified] Geneva, and New York City. The Tibet Houses are intended to serve as unofficial representation for the Dalai Lama to maintain the concept of a separate Tibetan political identity. The Tibet House in New York City will work closely with Tibetan supporters in the United Nations, particularly the Malayan, Irish, and Thai delegations. e. Tibet Houses in New York, Geneva, and [less than 1 line of source text not declassified] ( 1/2 year )—$ 75,000

[2] "The Shadow Circus: The CIA in Tibet". International Campaign for Tibet. September 13, 2018. Retrieved 12 October 2024.

[3] "World News Briefs; Dalai Lama Group Says It Got Money From C.I.A." New York Times. The Associated Press. October 2, 1998. Retrieved 12 October 2024.

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