Talk:Undertale/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Sans Cheulunel

Is there a source for "Sans Cheulunel"? They don't show up anywhere but here. 66.87.139.130 (talk) 13:25, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

The name waa given to me by Toby Fox as a response to my credit request. Lordtobi (✉) 14:09, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

So you donated to the Kickstarter and are credited in the game? GamerPro64 14:22, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

No, I sent a request Toby Fox a request to hand out the names of the people working on Undertale, since they are not propperly mentioned in the game's end screen credits. Lordtobi (✉) 14:26, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Their name doesn't show up in the credits, which lists *everybody* who worked on the title, in addition to the backers. A simple Google search of their name also turns up zero results. Until a verifiable source can be cited, I'm removing their name. NraButtons (talk) 03:07, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

About the plot section

I'm just asking, but are there any plans to expand it further, or are you guys are leaving it as is?

Regards, 182.18.228.165 (talk) 10:30, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

If I have the time, I'll try to work on it -- I can't make any promises, though. I'm thinking the "Genocide" route should probably have its own small subsection, since the plot changes a lot, though I don't really know what to call it. – The Millionth One (talk) (contribs) 12:47, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Is it okay if I contribute some things? For now I'll try to add a few details. 182.18.228.165 (talk) 15:27, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You can. Its all part of Being BOLD. And you can source the article with dialogue if you want. Just remember to use Template:Cite video game. GamerPro64 15:37, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for the go ahead. I'll keep anything pertaining to the various routes hidden for now. 182.18.228.165 (talk) 15:46, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I've added what I could. You can edit it if you need to. 182.18.228.165 (talk) 16:59, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

I think it'd be better to keep it summarised and kept to a single section. Going into heavy detail of the plot is a bit overkill and the differences between True/Pacifist and Genocide routes can be truncated to one or two sentences. I can have a bash at it, but I don't want to override all the work that's been put into the detailed plot description (even if I feel it's more than necessary). I could drop a draft in the talk page. Tau4 (talk) 08:15, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

tobyfox

First, I'm not sure "tobyfox" is really some alternate name for Fox, it's pretty much just his name spelt without spaces or capital letters. The use of "pseudonym" at least is probably worth changing. I'd advocate just using his real name, as it's the one the sources constantly use in actual articles. But otherwise, I find it's just confusing to have it separate like this. When we talk about him as a developer, will we refer to him as one name, and then elsewhere as another? There's no difference, it is the exact same person, and to vary between them just results in a misleading article. There's no reason to insist on using a pseudonym for one field and a real name elsewhere, where there is no functional difference between them. – The Millionth One (talk) (contribs) 22:21, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

You are correct in saying that it is confusing, but regarding that this is Wikipedia, we have to stick to officals. As you can e.g. see on Metacritic, GameRankigs and Steam (among many others), the developer/publisher sections are always filled with his pseudonym, "tobyfox", which—like you said—consists of his name, lower-case, without the space. It is simplistic, maybe even unnecessary, but it is as it is. The striking factor is, that you cannot say if tobyfox is only Toby Fox, or if it is Toby Fox, Tammie Chen and Sans Chelunel (who seems to be removed all the time). A good example is Cryptic Sea, aka. Alex Austin, who is developing a game called Sub Rosa. At one point, Brian Cronin joined him, also under the Cryptic Sea pseudonym, where there is no longer Cryptic Sea equals Alex Austin, just Cryptic Sea includes Alex Austin. I hope you get what I mean.

Through-out the article, it is not important if you say tobyfox or Toby Fox, except if it is explicitly mentioned in the given source. Lordtobi (✉) 22:34, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Hey, I removed the Chel name. Prove that they exist and that they were properly involved, and they can get their name back on the page. But simply searching the name shows no results. As far as the Internet is concerned, no human with that name exists. NraButtons (talk) 14:43, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Given that the game's official website credits him as "Toby Fox," his Bandcamp page, and the game itself declares "UNDERTALE by Toby Fox" for the credits, I think it makes sense to maintain this consistency in the article. I will submit an edit that changes "tobyfox" into this more canonical name. --Chungy (talk) 22:15, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Where creator not always = developer, just main person (like in this case), frequency also does not define officiality. Metacritic/GameRankings data > Bandcamp data. 176.3.104.171 (talk) 05:19, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

The point wasn't just Bandcamp, but it happened to be one of the primary sources for Toby's name, of which Metacritic and GameRanking sare only secondary. The game itself and the website for it do not write "tobyfox" anywhere on them, only "Toby Fox" which was my point. IMO we should be using that format as the canonical version of his name. --Chungy (talk) 15:32, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Primary sources are exactly the wrong way to go. While most websites state the creator ("Toby Fox") as developer, while secondary sources (like Metacritic and GameRankings) state the official name registered to them and the market. Also see WP:PRIMARY for more info. 176.0.104.211 (talk) 15:38, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

'Chara' and 'Frisk'

There is a LOT of potential for confusion here. For those who have not played or completed Undertale: at the start of the game, the player is prompted to "Name the Fallen Human". The idea (confirmed by Toby on his twitter) is that the player enters their own name or nickname, thus the player is referenced by name throughout the game by all of the characters. The 'default' name is stated to be 'Chara' here - again, confirmed by Toby on his twitter.

Now, in the game's finale it is revealed that the character being controlled by the player is actually called 'Frisk' - the 'Fallen Human' (i.e. 'Chara') is another human that previously fell into the Underground and was adopted by the King and Queen, but died. This human is suggested to be near-identical in appearance to the main character - at one point it is stated that they even have "Similar fashion sense".

It's clearly intended as a subversion of expectations by Toby; it unfortunately creates a lot of confusion when trying to write a plot synopsis! Do we talk about 'Frisk' throughout the section and therefore necessitate the explanation of a very complex revelation right from the start, or do we talk about 'The Player' and risk confusing readers when the main character turns out to have been someone else entirely?!

I think there should also be something in there about the player's prompting to name the 'Fallen Human', how it uses this name throughout the game despite being incorrect, and how this turns out to be the name of the character that is, essentially, the antagonist (Asriel/Flowey's previously good nature having been twisted as a result of their actions). I think here it is safe to state that the 'default' name is 'Chara' and use that when referencing that character throughout... but again, if we imply 'Chara' to be the character controlled throughout the game, even if the player themselves are held under that false assumption, we are going to end up seriously confusing a new reader.

I've taken care so far to simply refer to "The Player" instead of Frisk or Chara - the latter being the assumed character name, the former being the true character name, as that seemed the safest method, but it still results in a lot of muddled explanation in the end.

Personally I'm leaning towards being upfront about the reveal from the start. While it's somewhat of a spoiler and it's nice to present the narrative as the author intended when we can, on wikipedia I think we need to prioritise being informative and unambiguous. I also feel like a character section may assist here. Tau4 (talk) 09:10, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

It would be fine to explain the game and "spoil" it up front due to Wikipedia's guideline of no disclaimers or spoiler warnings. You're all good to go with that!

I agree to make use of Frisk's name from the get go, but that means Frisk's name reveal should be highlighted more explicitly as a result so we don't run the risk of confusing readers with that as well. At the same time though, we also don't want to run the risk of creating a plot synopsis that's too detailed, which is tough to avoid with a heavily-layered game such as this. RHedmi (talk) 10:02, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Made the edit: note that I maintained a distinction between Frisk's actions in the plot and the player's choices in the game. I think that's important to hold on to, as it seems to be a key theme.

Here is the tweet in which Toby states to use the player's own name; I didn't think it should go in the plot section - maybe gameplay? The link's there for citation purposes in any case. Tau4 (talk) 11:09, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I just simply made Frisk's name go unmentioned up until the Pacifist section, then simply refer to Chara as "Fallen Child" instead. How's that? 182.18.228.165 (talk) 08:07, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree that Frisk's name should go unmentioned until the Pacifist section too. Learning the character you control isn't actually who you named... it's not necessarily a spoiler, but it is a brilliant subversion. Readers often rely on Wikipedia pages to get an idea of what something is about, including me. Readers who haven't played Undertale yet will immediately know the main character's name is Frisk if we mention it right off the bat, and that thought makes me uneasy. They'll play the game and ask, "well, why do I need to name the Fallen Child if their name is already Frisk?" I'd hate to see the narrative slightly spoiled for the sake of being informative.

I feel like we should just use "the main character," "the protagonist," or "the player" instead. Chara as "the Fallen Child" is also good. I don't believe using "the player" or any other variation will confuse readers at all. The player is who we control, aka Frisk, right? Additionally, the significance of "the Fallen Child" isn't revealed until in the Pacifist run, so we don't need to mention "Chara" or "the Fallen Child" in previous sections. Under the Pacifist section, maybe to make things clearer, we need a summary of how Asriel mistakens the protagonist as his old friend, the aforementioned "Fallen Child" (aka who the player names). The protagonist then corrects Asriel by revealing their name as Frisk. Would that work?

EDIT and I guess TLTR: Wikipedia isn't spoiler-free, but I just wonder if it's necessary to mention the main character's name so early in the Wikipedia page. 99.235.153.88 (talk) 03:00, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I see what you mean. Wikipedia prose doesn't set out to tell a story - it sets out to inform. Subversions and other tropes don't really apply to non-fiction, and if there was an Undertale article in an equivalent encyclopedia, it would name the protagonist right off the bat, too. You can take a look at WP:SPOILER for more information, which says that censoring the information (or even moving it) goes against proper writing. And, it seems to me you would like Undertale to be the best-written article it could be. --Kiyoshiendo (talk) 03:08, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I understand you want to keep the Undertale article as encyclopedic as possible, but I was wondering if there could be just a small exception. Hiding the protagonist's name could be considered censoring, but I could argue that the name isn't important, at least not important enough to be mentioned in the lead and gameplay section. After all, the player doesn't learn Frisk's name until the very end of the game. Also, WP:SPOILER does mention deleting information, which I guess would be equivalent to censoring, but it doesn't mention anything about moving information. The page does point out that many spoilers fall under plot-related headings though. And yeah, I do, ahahaha. The Undertale article was so short the last time I visited, and now it's so detailed. I can't help but want to contribute, haha. 99.235.153.88 (talk) 04:18, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Have you considered creating an account? You would get so much more support with the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games project, and you can help contribute to many other games that you enjoy. You'll be amazed what you can do by just trying. As an example I hope that is humble, I did a lot of the writing on this article by myself (see https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Undertale&diff=688240682&oldid=688240588). Also, almost every fan site has spread Frisk's name far and side, so I wouldn't consider it a spoiler at this point. --Kiyoshiendo (talk) 04:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Ah, that's so true. Even I knew the name Frisk before I finished Undertale, but the difference was I thought Frisk was merely a fan name, since I was under the impression that the main character had no official name. Also, I never thought about creating an account since I never edit articles; I'll think about it though, since discussions like these are fun, ahaha. And yeah, I saw the article's edit history and I noticed you contributed so much. I really appreciate all the hard work! 99.235.153.88 (talk) 04:45, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I think we should remove mentions of "Frisk" from every section EXCEPT plot. Anybody who reads the plot section knows they will see spoilers. I'm specifically referring to the second paragraph-- do we really need that spoiler there? Misavvy (talk) 16:54, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Even though Wikipedia doesn't hide spoilers, I never expect to see endgame spoilers at the very top of a page. Oornery (talk) 23:00, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

@Oornery: you do see that it say "except the plot", the place where you are removing it. 195.14.216.215 (talk) 23:05, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I only edited the top of the page. The plot section is further down. Oornery (talk) 23:11, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

The fact that it's widely known doesn't make it not a spoiler. See: Sans' boss fight and "Snape kills Dumbledore". Oornery (talk) 00:18, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Chara is one of the lost souls that have become a brute demon and has returned for revenge for her demise Correctguy75 (talk) 23:21, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Request for Undertale pictures in article

This article would really benefit from the inclusion of pictures. If there can be a picture of the battle system and the overworld, it would describe how the game looks in far better terms that just text. If any of you folks can retrieve and license a picture, can you? Thank you. --Kiyoshiendo (talk) 23:01, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Reassessment

Came here vie that reassessment request in the talk page template; reassessing this article as B-class. Some ideas for improvement follow: (Note that I'm only going to skim the plot section, as I've been meaning to play this and haven't yet)

• You repeat "the game" too often/too close in the lead
• You don't need citations in the lead, except for quotes; everything in the lead should be a summary of cited information in the article body
• You don't need a comma after (Earthbound). Actually, your comma use is a little off in general- not a problem for GAN, but you will definitely want a copyedit pass prior to any FAC
• "Toby Fox" is in way too many fields in the infobox. It's a one/two-person game, it can be assumed he performed all the roles besides some artwork. Drop the writer and composer fields.
• Gameplay appears to have some unreferenced bits
• Skiming plot, as I said, though I will say that almost always character lists like the one here are unnecessary, and it looks like that's the case here too
• The plot section itself is overlong- it really shouldn't be more than 5-6 paragraphs, even for complicated games. Summarize, summarize, summarize
• "Game Informer" should be italicized
• Too many direct quotes in development; paraphrase as many as you can
• The development section is pretty choppy: 1) you don't need section subheaders for one-paragraph sections; cut them all. 2) The direct quotes are making it choppy as well, as you distort the sentence stucture in order to accommodate them. The section should be flowing prose, not quotes in search of bullet points
• Gamerankings scores (in both the template and the prose, if you must include them there) should be rounded to the nearest percent
• A minor detail, but I feel like the punctuation in quotes is off a bit- the period goes inside the quote mark if you are quoting an entire sentence from beginning to end, and outside if you are not. It's a really good section though, good job on that
• Does the one sales sentence need it's own subsection? Would it not work better in the first paragraph of reception?
• Fun fact: Steam Spy estimates that about 250,000 people have bought the game on Steam as of today. That's a reliable source, though you do have to note it as "Steam Spy estimates about x", since it's a 3rd party estimate, not hard data from Steam or tobyfox. --PresN 17:27, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I notice some of these little issues before, and I would like to fix them. If anybody else would like to read your review, it would be very nice if they would help out too. --Kiyoshiendo (talk) 19:30, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

@PresN: Has the WikiProject considered Steam Spy to be reliable? I thought there was a deadlock on that. GamerPro64 19:36, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I'll slice off the points in the review as I clean them up. --Kiyoshiendo (talk) 19:56, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

@GamerPro64: looks like the only discussion was Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 115#Steam Spy as reliable source?; it looks like everyone mostly agreed that you could only use it to say that "approximately X people owned the game on Steam, according to Steam Spy", though the actual number of sales would be off since it didn't include non-steam sales, and a sale of a 4-pack would count as 4, not 1... which is honestly a feature, in my opinion, but whatever. I don't think we've closed the door on the issue, but I do think it's into the "forgiveness" stage, not "permission". I have used it in one FL so far, if that counts. --PresN 20:28, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Hmm. I guess that can work. Better than using GameSkinny right now. I'm not too comfortable with using it here anyway. GamerPro64 20:43, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

"Genocide" or "No mercy" for all-kills route?

There's been some minor editing about whether or not the all-kills route is called "no mercy" or "genocide". A lot of fan sites call it genocide, though some sites also call it no mercy. If there's a notable source as to which is which, can you please edit it in? Thank you. --Kiyoshiendo (talk) 19:29, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

This is the situation as I understand it; all anecdotal as I haven't seen Toby's statement myself: there has always been a mix of the two terms. 'Genocide' and 'No Mercy' are two different names for the exact same game ending. Toby has, apparently, asked for it not to be referred to as 'Genocide' due to the connotations it holds and not wanting to draw that connection to real-world genocides. I've not seen a clear consensus among the fanbase though with that rumour circling I believe it's starting to lean more towards 'No Mercy'. Tau4 (talk) 14:22, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Since neither of the names have ever been mentioned a by a secondary, notable source, I'd suggest "name-neutral" names such as "All-spare", "All-kill". Lordtobi (✉) 14:46, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Found a source on Kotaku supporting "genocide": "I feel like a “genocide run,” as the community has taken to calling it, gives some characters even more indicative moments than a pacifist approach." http://steamed.kotaku.com/players-still-havent-figured-out-all-of-undertales-secr-1733048190 --Kiyoshiendo (talk) 05:26, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Toby has not ever said that, that was just a rumor, apparently. Though referring to it as genocide may be slightly spoilery as the player isn't supposed to expect to cause an actual genocide (and instead expect what would happen in any other RPG). While spoilers do not matter on Wikipedia, it'd at least help spread No Mercy and avoid new players from getting spoiled. 92.92.160.21 (talk) 18:01, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

We don't actually have to name the routes. We can just describe them, like, "if the player does action A, [summary of what happens]. If they instead do action B, [summary of what happens]." And we don't need to have separate sections for different routes, either. Look at articles like Shin Megami Tensei IV - all three routes are described in a single section, in less than 700 words (623 in this case). That's what we should be aiming for. I'd like to help out, but I haven't actually played Undertale yet, and would prefer to not know the game's plot beforehand.--IDV^talk 05:52, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

This makes perfect sense to me, really, plus it could potentially make the plot section a lot cleaner with no splitting off into subsections and the issues that come with that. Tau4 (talk) 16:40, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree, would be good if someone got onto this. Lordtobi (✉) 16:47, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

I did it. --Kiyoshiendo (talk) 19:15, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Possible means of handling endings.

There's a lot of messing around (in a good sense!) with the plot section right now so I decided not to do this right now, though I will once again make an attempt to trim it down...

I did, however, have an idea to try and clean things up a bit: since a large part of the plot section is due to the detail going into the ending subsections - which is also causing a little confusion, I feel, as there are now suddenly parts in the ending subsections that assume knowledge of the plot that isn't actually written beforehand?

Maybe we can justify having a separate section, after Plot, for the endings. I have seen this on other articles for games with multiple endings; this way, we can provide all the key plot details in the 'Plot' section and then go on to state the differences that occur in how it is presented to the player, dependent on the ending.

This way we can also have a more logical presentation of plot points, with no accidental referencing to details that only appear further down the page. Keeping the article "Flow", as it were. Tau4 (talk) 14:40, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree. I think that, optimally, it should be something like how the Spec Ops: The Line page handles it.--U'et (talk) 10:22, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

I second that motion (do anon votes count though?) 182.18.228.165 (talk) 08:53, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Brevity and flow

As you've probably seen I've been having a fun old time making little edits to grammar and wording, sentence structure, all that jazz. I'm a writer at heart! Through doing this I have also noticed some repeated patterns in the writing that can make it read a little poorly and, while perfectly factual additions, disrupt the flow of the article somewhat... Just making a handful of suggestions here for people to consider:

• "However" "Unfortunately" "Ultimately" etc... - When a plot has this many twists we're obviously going to get a lot of these. Some are getting repeated more than others and seeing the same word used several times in, say, the same paragraph, looks a little off.
• Sentence length - Ideally not too short and not too long. If it's short, consider amending it to the previous or following sentence instead. If it's long, see if you can break it into nicer pieces.
• Key info - This game is rich with detail. Some plot points don't make a whole lot of sense without the full context. Full context is impossible to achieve in the number of paragraphs we have. We're going to have to skim over details and focus on the main plot. Don't worry about it! Consider the actions, general motivations and consequences of the main actors at the main plot points; those should be perfectly adequate for a concise timeline of events. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tau4 (talk • contribs) 15:33, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Fancruft

I have a sneaky suspicion that this page is going to get repeated additions of Fancruft to its plot that shouldn't be there. Any ideas on tackling the issue? GamerPro64 16:42, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

To be honest, I'm still on the fence regarding Chara/The Fallen Child's name. 182.18.228.165 (talk) 07:33, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

I have some mixed feelings about it too but what clinched it for me was that continually referring to 'The Fallen Child' came across as confusing and much messier-looking than just 'Chara'. If it's confirmed to be the 'Canon' name, I think using it is much more preferable. Tau4 (talk) 09:30, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

The closest we have is entering your name, where inputting "Chara" would make the game say "The True Name" before letting you continue. I've always interpreted it as a joke on Toby's part (Chara-cter). 182.18.228.165 (talk) 10:19, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Haven't confirmed myself but supposedly if you edit the files to remove the player's name it defaults back to 'Chara'. It's a little ambiguous and Toby has clearly stated that it's intended for the player to enter their own name; could we get that across in a way that isn't too confusing or messy when making repeated references to the character? Tau4 (talk) 11:00, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Fun & Serious Award

So Toby won an award for Best Debut Game at the Fun and Serious Game Festival, as seen on his twitter page. I figured it would be appropriate to add this to the awards section on the Wikipedia, but I have no real experience in proper page writing or editing here. So, I figured I'd post this more as a heads up and hope that someone who more expertise can come around and add it - assuming it's even relevant enough, or that there's even enough cite-able resources available to add this to the page. Mygames19 (talk) 06:47, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

IGN PC Game of the Year and Best Story of the Year Awards

IGN gave the game those two awards (PC GOTY, Best Story). Could someone add that to the chart of awards? Cookieo131 (talk) 08:49, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

GameFAQs Poll?

UnderTale is credited for GameFAQs "Best. Game. Ever." award, when it is heavily speculated that in the semi-finals of the competition against Super Smash Brothers Melee, fans of both games were using bots to win the poll. And also, should a fanpoll on a forum site really be classed as an award? Especially on the top of the table. 94.10.161.9 (talk) 20:35, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

It is far on the top because it was one of the first awards to be given and the table being sorted chronologically. And multiple secondary sources wrote about it which makes it just notable enough for the table. So, yes, everything is correct. Lordtobi (✉) (✉) 20:38, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Preparations for making the Japanese language article, and the Korean one

While I don't know Japanese, I know of places which may have people who are interested in writing a Japanese language article about this game. However... I would like to wait until I have information from reliable sources, such as:

• The name of the Japanese distributor
• The estimated date of release of a Japanese version
• The official Japanese names of the characters.

Since tobyfox released the demo in Korean I requested, and received, the Korean language article: ko:언더테일 WhisperToMe (talk) 23:16, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

@WhisperToMe: For you and others interested in translating, I'd suggest using the ContentTranslation extension, which you can turn on in your preferences under "Beta features." Makes translating pretty easy with less switching between windows/tabs. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 00:09, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

@I JethroBT: If/when the content on the EN page is/becomes well-referenced that's a great idea. For languages that are already started somebody could use the extension to make an article on a userpage, then transfer all the content to the article space to replace the old content.

WhisperToMe (talk) 00:20, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 February 2016

Please change: "Frisk then easily kills Asgore and Flowey" because Flowey kills Asgore, not Frisk. This is shown on the page: http://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/Genocide_Route where the source states: "The protagonist then proceeds to attack Asgore, depleting all his health in one hit. Flowey finishes Asgore off" Bewilderbeast23 (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

I think for purposes of conciseness, the way it is said is fine; yes technically Flowey lands the final blow, but in the context, it's that Frisk does a near one-hit kill and then does the same to Flowey moments later that's important to understand. --MASEM (t) 00:19, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 05:42, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Can anyone add this reference to the Plot section please?

I have no idea how to cite dialogue in a page. I remember some older articles citing dialogue in a game, so I figured I could do that.

It's for the Judgement section where Sans explains what LOVE and EXP mean in-universe;

Sans: "You will be judged for your every action. You will be judged for every EXP you've earned. What's EXP? It's an acronym. It stands for 'execution points.' A way of quantifying the pain you have inflicted on others. When you kill someone, your EXP increases. When you have enough EXP, your LOVE increases. LOVE, too, is an acronym. It stands for 'Level of Violence.' A way of measuring someone's capacity to hurt. The more you kill, the easier it becomes to distance yourself. The more you distance yourself, the less you will hurt. The more easily you can bring yourself to hurt others."

You may modify the quote if necessary, but that's pretty much transcribed from the game to the best of my ability. Please and thanks. 114.108.242.2 (talk) 08:55, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 February 2016

The facts explained in the plot are incorrect such as the fact that it did not include the seven wizards sealing them underground or the fact that it does not explain chara well and does not include anything about the six other human souls and does not include anything about the relationship between Chara and Asriel or the fact that Chara also poisoned Asgore. It also doesn't explain Toriel and Asgore's relationship. I can fix all of this, so please let me edit it. Please let me,Crabpotato fix it. Crabpotato (talk) 21:14, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

@Crabpotato: I'm not sure it's necessary to provide a comprehensive overview of the plot. This article is about the game generally and how it is covered by sources. While a plot section is necessary, it should be balanced with out-of-universe information about this game. Details about the six other human souls, the nature of many characters and their exact relationships are not central to describing the plot of the game. In addition, I think many of those relationships and interactions were designed to be deliberately vague and left to interpretation (i.e. Chara poisons Asgore is something implied from dialog in a VHS tape), but the plot should not contain interpretations. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 22:32, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Concur. This would be too much. --SubSeven (talk) 07:25, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Misspelled word

Hello. The word Dreemurr is misspelled. 46.13.183.213 (talk) 16:25, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

 Done Lordtobi (✉) (✉) 16:26, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Support for a sound clip

At least two separate articles from RSes [1] [2] (as well as potentially [3]) should let us include a short clip of "Hopes & Dreams" to highlight the music in the game. --MASEM (t) 15:37, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

I think including the music here would help out here. GamerPro64 16:31, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

I always like an article with a nice sound clip. Knock yourself out; be sure to read the guidelines closely ^_^ ~Mable (chat) 17:16, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

I am presently not where I can easily get a clip, so if anyone beats me to it, we want to use one that includes a character's leitmotif from "Hopes and Dreams" (as all three sources describe how this boss song reintroduces those). If no one gets it by tonight, I'll add one with ref support. --MASEM (t) 17:22, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

I went ahead and added a clip. If you'd prefer to replace it with a different portion of the song, feel free to upload a new version, by all means. – Rhain ☔ 21:38, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

I think that section works, since it is re-inforced in the Gamasutra source that it is the main Undertale theme at that point in the song. --MASEM (t) 21:59, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Sources for Use

I found an article which reveals a Nintendo Wii U port as well as an interview which reveals things about the creation of the game. Both which may be of use. Vexthesmol (talk) 14:17, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, but we've already got the potential Nintendo ports mentioned in the article's release section. The interview you linked is also already used in the article (maybe there's more information in the interview that hasn't yet been added to the article though - I haven't checked).--IDV^talk 15:14, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

I was wondering if we should mention that it won GameFAQs 2015 best game ever in the reception section and possibly that it negatively affected how fans were viewed since it went up against the legend of Zelda ocarina of time. IDV Vexthesmol (talk) 16:51, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

The GameFAQs thing is already included in the list of awards and nominations. If you can find reliable sources reporting on how fans were viewed, then maybe that can be included, but it does sound a bit trivial.--IDV^talk 17:00, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

The footnotes

So, I've been trying to find sources for them. However, I cannot find anything that supports "Pacifist Run" being an informal term (journalists who refer to it tend to just say "the pacifist run" without pointing out that it isn't the official name), and I can't find anything that says that "level" often is abbreviated as "lv" in RPGs. What do we do about these? Should we just remove the notes altogether?--IDV^talk 21:15, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't know about the Pacific Run issue but have you thought about using the dialogue from the game as sources for the lv part? GamerPro64 22:22, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

IIRC the game only assumes that the player will know it usually means "level", and doesn't actually say it (naturally, since it doesn't mean "level" in Undertale).--IDV^talk 22:33, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

As for level, it's an annoying situation of something basically all regular video game players already know (or can extrapolate without difficulty). Might be a sky is blue situation? ~Mable (chat) 09:23, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

MOS:VG states that "video game articles should be readable and interesting to non-gamers". – Rhain ☔ 09:33, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm saying that a source might not be needed; I am not saying that the information should be omitted. Sources that discuss Undertale in any depth will assume that its readers know what is meant with "lv" and "exp", but as a general encyclopedia, we shouldn't make that assumption. ~Mable (chat) 10:09, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Apologies; I misread the context. – Rhain ☔ 13:29, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

This review from Giant Bomb doesn't exactly say what we are saying about LV and EXP but definitely implies that the game tosses EXP to you but that these are more than just numbers. It's also implied by Kotaku's review (regarding subversion of JRPG tropes). Given that, in general video game knowledge, that "LV" and "EXP" generally relate to character level and experience, and that secondary sources point out how this is subverted, I think we're fine on those points.

AV Club gives out the term, IGN calls it that, and VG247 notes the terms in talking about the update. I will note that I'm pretty confident the game at no point calls them this, its simply terms adopted by the community, but they are terms that a person that may want to research Undertale further beyond Wikipedia should be familiar with to understand how they are incorporated into the game. (This is also why I think we need to also identify what "Chara" means too even though this is nearly 100% a fan-made convention). --MASEM (t) 14:19, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Can't find any RS mentioning "Chara", so I'm not convinced we need to or even can mention that name. Regarding the ending names, I guess we can just tweak our wording a bit and use those sources Masem proposed.--IDV^talk 17:08, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

"Chara" is mentioned here, but it's a very brief passing mention within a list of minor characters, so I doubt it warrants inclusion. – Rhain ☔ 23:09, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Genocide / No mercy

The genocide and no mercy runs are different - no mercy is killing all monsters encountered, however genocide is a no mercy run where all monsters are encountered (and killed). Should this be outlined in the 'Plot' section, or does it go into too much detail? (The no mercy and genocide endings are different). --IAmADodo (talk) 18:20, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

I have not heard of this distinction before. If there is a reliable source discussing the difference, it can be added, but to note b rather than the plot section.--IDV^talk 18:57, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

I agree, nearly every RS that talks about the darker ending refers to it as the Genocide run. There certainly might be the No Mercy run but this is not discussed in sources. --MASEM (t) 21:13, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Hard mode ?

We should add some explanations about hard mode. --Halfkimoon (talk) 12:10, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

We need a source that describes this (none of the RSes seem to talk about it). I know it exists, but not easily sourced. --MASEM (t) 15:44, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

(Meaning that that aspect probably isn't all that noteworthy anyway) ~Mable (chat) 04:57, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

"cyclinically" is not a word

In the first paragraph of the main description, the word "cyclinically" is used. I believe whoever wrote this meant to use the word "Cyclically" and not "cyclinically". "cyclinically" is not a word. Will someone please fix this? thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.33.139 (talk) 22:05, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

 Done While I do see "cyclinical" in some uses, I do beleive that "cyclically" is the right word (a repeating cycle of monster encounters seems accurate). --MASEM (t) 22:10, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

Spoilers

You should have a spoiler warning over the "plot" section, as it contains major spoilers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.152.157.153 (talk) 20:31, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

We don't do spoiler warnings on Wikipedia - see WP:SPOILER.--IDV^talk 20:36, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Mr. Bean?

I assumed this was a joke edit, but it seems to have been on here for a while. Are there any sources for the claim that Mr. Bean was one of the inspirations for the game? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:180:8100:7AD7:E557:2562:485E:5D2C (talk) 20:20, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

If you look at the fact in the article (outside the lead, in the "Writing" section), there is a reference that supports the claim (currently ref #16): this interview with Toby (at about 1:27:30). – Rhain ☔ 22:17, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Undertale wasn't inspired by any of these. It was Earthbound that inspired Fox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.69.167.104 (talk) 23:31, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

You don't believe Fox' own words? ~Mable (chat) 09:46, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 November 2016

The plot is very gummed up and lacks many important details. I would like to change that.

TheNavyShadow (talk) 23:54, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

 Not done It is a very complex story and trying to cover all details of it would be against WP's policy of avoiding long plot sections. It is sufficiently concise to explain the broad picture. --MASEM (t) 01:14, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 November 2016

I have seen something missing i was going to add "secret endings" to the gameplay section.

Neosporinsucks (talk) 03:54, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. —C.Fred (talk) 04:11, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

A Flaw in the Plot

So, I just noticed a flaw in the plot. I'm not able to edit to change this, but the article says that the war was started because Asriel was killed by the humans when he tried to return Chara's body to her village, when that's entirely inaccurate. The war didn't happen after Asriel and Chara, it even says so in the intro. Long ago there was a war, many lears later small child falls down hole. On top of that, the whole reason Chara died was because she killed herself so Asriel could absorb her soul, then get six other souls and free everyone and destroy humanity. There is no possible way for the war to happen after Chara and Asriel. Can someone who is able to edit the article change that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by JosieAlyvia (talk • contribs) 06:00, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

• @JosieAlyvia: Hi! Do you have a reference for the information? Either a dialog in-game and/or a source outside of the game? WhisperToMe (talk) 00:20, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

From the intro sequence of Undertale:

"Long ago, two races ruled over Earth: HUMANS and MONSTERS. One day, war broke out between the two races. After a long battle, the humans were victorious. They sealed the monsters underground with a magic spell. Many years later..." [pictures of Chara falling down the hole]

From VHS tapes in the True Lab (Asriel talking to Chara):

"Psst... Please... wake up... I don't like this plan anymore. I... I...... no, I said... I said I'd never doubt you. Six, right? We just have to get six... And we'll do it together, right?"

Any more proof needed?

KockaAdmiralac (talk) 06:03, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Ok. @JosieAlyvia: @KockaAdmiralac:, I think what happened was the person who wrote the plot section didn't want to reveal spoilers and/or thought the plot section was too heavy: In fact I'll write: "The game reveals that Chara had committed suicide in order to get his/her soul to join Asriel's and had coerced/manipulated Asriel into complying with a plot to kill humanity. However Asriel resisted Chara's control, and prevented Chara from attacking, resulting in Asriel's death." - I understand Wikipedians don't want the plot section to get too heavy, but there are some things which, if left out, distort one's understanding of the plot. Thank you, Kocka! WhisperToMe (talk) 13:21, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Use of Breitbart review in reception

I take issue with the use of a review from Breitbart in the reception section. Not sure who added it in, but the language it uses, such as "cringy", is not that of a professional game reviewer. The site itself is known for its unreliable news content, and I am not sure why people writing reviews for them should not be covered under that. The review's language would be unacceptable for any mainstream game journalism outlet._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 03:43, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't know when it was added in either, but yeah, I see no issue with removing it.--IDV^talk 17:47, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

I also support removal. This is an extremely popular game, there should be no shortage of professional video game reviews to be using instead. Sergecross73 msg me 17:47, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Pinging Masem, who first reverted this user on this matter. I have no position in regards to this issue. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 17:49, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't know who added it, but I only reverted as "Breitbart as an unreliable source" was not a proper reason when it is being used for opinion, but consensus can determine if it should be kept or not. Note that from the VG project we'd like to see opinions from outside VG sources in mainstream media, showing the reach of the game outside of the industry. However, whether Breitbart is reasonable or not, I don't have an opinion on that matter. --MASEM (t) 17:51, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

I think I'd be hard pressed to call Breitbart "mainstream media". I do admit that the vast majority of the review besides the "cringey" statement is more uncontroversial and harmless, but I also think that the Breibart audience most likely intersects with that of gamers anyway, so arguing that it would reach more people is bogus._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 22:41, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

"Mainstream" I'm using here to imply non-specialist and/or non-VG-focused news coverage. --MASEM (t) 00:44, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Except there is a deeper problem here. Nobody who works for Breitbart can be called a "professional" or reliable news reporter, because the site does not attempt to report the facts. Calling a reviewer for the site a noteworthy reference when the rest of the site is not admissable, does not make much sense. If that is the case, then why not add in all the other smaller sites that reviewed the game, because if the review "seems" good, then it should be added under those criteria._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 02:43, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

I have to agree with this statement. The articles have all seemed one-sided. Would anyone agree that this is undue weight when compared to other mainstream sites? jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 03:46, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

To be clear before commenting, I have no issue if the removal is based on being just-yet-another-review added to the article and not adding anything really new or unique, and that compared to other major sites, Breitbart is far from where we'd like to pull non-VG source reviews. But I will stress, glancing through the review, I see nothing glaringly wrong, nor is the review far out of line of how other sites have reviewed the game, so it is not appropriate to link the general non-RS nature of Breitbart to an otherwise fair opinion it publishes, so that initial removal based on Breitbart being a non-RS for facts was wrong. I would definitely be concerned if there was "trollish" behavior in the review. But again, I'm in general agreement that the review otherwise is not needed given it adds little new to the reception section. --MASEM (t) 03:54, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Ultimately I do not think we can start judging reviews on their own merits, as that's basically original research. We need to accept the review as fact and that means the publication said review is in needs to be fact based. Despite the fact that the review is not actually filled with any lies, there's literally no way of knowing that if you didn't play through the game. _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 08:15, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Reviews (or at least the parts of reviews that are subjective and not trying to establish elements like gameplay and story) are always going to be considered opinions, not facts. We do not expect reviewers to be fact-checking their subjective opinions, as long as we always attribute that to the reviewer or source if we included it. RS and other policies make a strong distinction here between using a source for facts (where RS must apply), and a source for opinion (where RS does not need to apply but still has a number of considerations). --MASEM (t) 13:14, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

A subjective opinion can certainly be based on facts or not. For example, if the reviewer said "I really disliked this game's emphasis on killing innocent animals", but neglected to say that they were actually rabid zombie dogs, that would be misstating the facts via a subjective opinion, and yet nobody could prove it without doing their OWN original research to confirm. Or maybe "the way this game encourages violence appalled me". An uninformed or just biased reviewer could distort the facts even when stating an opinion._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 15:33, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

That would be the type of trolling, where they are deliberately stretching the truth, or outright lying, that I would agree the review becomes invalid particularly if it is not normally from a RS. However, again, I don't see anything in the Breitbart review that incorporates facts based on the game that is exaggeration or falsehood; it appears as an earnest review. --MASEM (t) 16:56, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, but you came to that conclusion by cross referencing other reviews to confirm this one wasn't biased. It sets a bad precedent because then in games that might not be able to be cross referenced a possibly biased review from the same site would become admissible, as people could argue that if the site was used here, why not there? I'd say it's better to just put a blanket restriction._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 06:22, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with looking to what the bulk of other reviews and other article about a game to determine if a review from an unusual source is appropriate or not, nor is using what one knows about the game to do the same. If the hypothetical that everyone says you have to fight or befriend the monsters, and that outlier review says you go around killing cute innocent animals making it a bad game, that's definitely something to ignore per FRINGE. But putting a blanket ban on a source for their opinion is not permissible under policy. --MASEM (t) 12:21, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Per Template:Video game reviews, "only include reviews if they are cited within the text" (and vice versa). The review does not feature a score, and since the section already uses sources deemed reliable on WP:VG/RS, Breitbart would add nothing. –Cognissonance (talk) 00:04, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

We might as well remove The Boston Globe article if we're going that direction. GamerPro64 00:15, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

The template does not state that. We have that in the template to prevent flooding a table with 20+ scored reviews where only 5 may be referenced in the work, but we absolutely do not require reviews used in prose to be include in the template, particularly if they do not score the game (as, for example, Eurogamer and Kotaku no longer do). When mainstream sources like NYTimes and WaPost have video game coverage, those are some of the best assertions of a game's importance beyond gamers, and we don't worry about their lack of score. --MASEM (t) 00:43, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

"The template does not state that. We have that in the template". Which one is it? –Cognissonance (talk) 02:09, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

You're misreading what I said. We have the language "Only include reviews if they are cited within the text." to avoid flooding the template with reviews. The docs for the template speak nothing about requiring a review score to be listed in the template as to use a review in prose. --MASEM (t) 02:16, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

The review was added in December 2015, for those wondering. – Rhain ☔ 08:24, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 August 2017

123.136.111.54 (talk) 08:22, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. nihlus kryik (talk) 08:28, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Characters?

Should we add something about any of the character? Although it would be hard not to spoil the game. Vexthesmol (talk) 03:19, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

What else is there to say about them? They get some mention in the second paragraph of the Plot section. GamerPro64 03:28, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Fans love talking about the characters, but interestingly enough, I haven't come across any reliable source that discusses any. No discussion by source means no real notability means no separate section for them. I too think the characters get more than enough description in the plot-section. ~Mable (chat) 05:08, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Yeah that makes sense. Thanks for the input. Mable Vexthesmol (talk) 05:30, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Mind you, I think we can justify an EL to the Undertale Wikia [4] for those that might want to get more in-depth on the characters. Reasonable complete for a fan site with enough editors and time to be stable for meeting ELMAYBE. That way we'd not have to get into the characters beyond the brief into we have in the plot here. --MASEM (t) 06:27, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Support I believe that we should include a section on characters. I know hat it is hard to find evidence to cite but hey, if there's a will there's a way. I would also be happy to contribute to such a section if it is to be created. WarriorFISH (talk) 00:23, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

@Warriorfish: Please see WP:GAMECRUFT #6; we do not include a list of characters in video game articles unless properly sourced. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 00:25, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Then we will properly source them. WarriorFISH (talk) 00:29, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Revive old talk page

I don't see the need to archive that page. it also contains some relevant and useful talk and Q/A. The archived page should be revived. WarriorFISH (talk) 00:35, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Could you clarify what you mean? If you mean the talk page archive, this is a normal process to move older sections to an archive for long term storage. Archives are linked at the top of the page so anyone can read or refer back to them. No reason to restore them, and if a topic needs further discussion, you can open a new section and refer with a wikilink to the archived discussion. -- ferret (talk) 00:43, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

"Chara"

While we do refer to the fallen human as Chara in the Undertale Wiki, I believe it's less confusing for readers if this page referred to the fallen human simply as "fallen human". New players (not counting those that know about it) of Undertale don't usually choose "Chara" as their name so they would never encounter that name on their first, second, etc. run until they actually find out who Chara is somewhere on the Internet.

And no, this isn't an edit request, it's a question. I don't know how are things handled on Wikipedia most of the time so I'd rather ask on the talkpage if something should be changed than request from somebody to change it and get possibly rejected.

Should the latest edit to the page be reverted/reworded? KockaAdmiralac (talk) 22:08, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be confusing anyways if you just say the "fallen human'? After all, the protagonist (Frisk sorry about spoiler) is a fallen human as well. WarriorFISH (talk) 02:17, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Tracklist (or lack thereof)?

Is there any reason there isn't a tracklist in the "Music" section? Was there ever a tracklist? If so, did it get removed? If there isn't any reason for exempting a tracklist, I'll go ahead and add one. The Verified Cactus 100% 21:04, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

WP:VGSCOPE tells us not to include one, unless the soundtrack has its own article. Lordtobi (✉) 21:07, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Ah, I was not aware of that. Thanks. The Verified Cactus 100% 21:38, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

FA nomination?

I think this article might have enough notability for it to be a featured article. Who wants to support a possible nomination? jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 22:03, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Well, notability isn't related to it being likely to reach FA - it is a bare minimum required for the article to exist in the first place. That said, I dunno, I think it should go through a peer review first at least.--IDV^talk 17:46, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't really do the FA stuff, but FYI, from what I've gathered, the FA process is a lot harder than a simple GA. Much more involved, with more nitpicking. Its much more of a commitment, so you may be less likely to come across a random passerby who just wants to try on a whim. But just my two cents, obviously, no harm in you asking. And I could be wrong. Sergecross73 msg me 17:53, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Well with IDV's suggestion of a Peer Review there should probably be one. GamerPro64 18:24, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

So who wants to start the peer review process? I can't do so as I already have an open PR on another article. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 16:48, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but what is a peer review? WarriorFISH (talk) 16:53, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 24 February 2018

Reading through this again, I have noticed several instances in the plot section of the article where the information is simply incorrect.

"One day, Chara fatally poisoned themself by drinking a tea made from poisonous golden flowers" Chara poisoned themself with buttercups, not golden flowers, and there was no mention of tea. In fact, golden flower tea is shown to not be poisonous, as both the human and Asgore are known to drink it at one point.

"It is revealed that Asriel was reincarnated as Flowey, created by Alphys as a vessel of determination (the power that allows Frisk and Flowey to save game files in order to resurrect) as well as an intended surprise for Asgore." Not specific enough, or rather a little misleading. Alphys did not accidentally create Flowey to be a "vessel of determination", but rather to become a vessel for both human and monster souls, something which did require the use of Determination, but having Determination was not the primary goal.

"Flowey ambushes the group, using the souls of all the monsters to take an older Asriel's form to fight the human and initiate an Apocalypse." Unclear where the term "Apocalypse" comes from, as that word is not mentioned even once in the entire text of the game. The capitalization of the term makes it seem like an important, canonical term, when it is clearly not.

"Chara materializes before the player after Flowey is killed and explains that they were resurrected by the player's LOVE." It cannot have been the human's LOVE that awakened Chara from death, as they imply that they were alongside the human, learning from them, and eventually deciding to help them. The human only gained a high enough LOVE to trigger this ending of the game after Chara's presence had been hinted at and now implied by Chara, themself.

In the second half of the plot section, the term "the player" starts being used interchangeably with "the human/Frisk". However, in the game's universe, no "player" is ever mentioned, and all mentions of the player in the second half of the article can easily be replaced with "the human". After all, it is the human who does everything in the game and even sells their soul, as it is used in the first half of the article.

Some of the wording choice in this part of the article could also use work, such as "determination (the power that allows Frisk and Flowey to save game files in order to resurrect)" ("the power that allows Frisk and Flowey to come back from death and reset the timeline" would be a better definition, for one) or "Asgore's castle, which contains the path (blocked by the barrier) leading to the surface world." ("which contains the only exit out of the Underground" would be more accurate). I think the article could use more language from the game itself in such places.

I also think the section on the Genocide Run could be expanded upon, as it is rather short compared to the other two runs referenced, and could use more information from Chara's explanatory monologue, for instance.

In short, I feel this part of the article is in need of some editing to make it more accurate and avoid falsities and misleading (not to toot my own horn, but I would gladly try my hand at getting it up to a higher standard if the semi-protection did not bar me from doing that, as I am dedicated to the facts of the game and am well-versed in its canon, along with having sources to quote if necessary).

PC012 (talk) 00:05, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 9 March 2018

The french Nintendo Direct Showed that UnderTale for Nintendo Switch is coming 8th april. Clem789 (talk) 19:47, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: Just viewed the French version and, no, it does not say that. Lordtobi (✉) 20:38, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Character Section?

Does anybody else think this page needs a section for characters? Maximajorian Viridio (talk) 02:37, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

No media sources have really covered any characters in depth (which is required per Wikipedia policy) other than Toriel and Flowey, which already have their own articles. So no. User:Axisixa [t] [c] 06:40, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 May 2018

Hi, as said before, undertale will be on th switch. in the French Nintendo Direct, at the end of the Undertale announcment, there are 8-4 written at top left of the screen. That means tha Undertale will be on switch at 4th August. Clem789 (talk) 10:27, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

 Not done. 8-4 is the group responsible for Undertale's Japanese localization and console ports, not a release date. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 10:51, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 August 2018

115.187.62.65 (talk) 10:50, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Change Switch release to September 15 for Japan.

 Not done: You haven't provided a source, but for a non-Japanese game we do not denote Japanese release dates anyways. -- ferret (talk) 11:17, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Artwork for lead image

It's ideal to have a definitive, identifying image as a lead image that "illustrate[s] the topic specifically" and "give readers visual confirmation that they've arrived at the right page." A simple display of a logo isn't enough to satisfy this, I don't think, since it doesn't show anything about the game itself. The official packaging artwork does however, which clearly displays the game's unique setting and art style. A similar consensus was made in the Rocket League article for its lead image, which replaced a simple display of a logo with an official box art that showcases the game immediately to a reader. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 21:57, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

However, the game was first released digitally, and in the past we generally use the digital "cover" as the image to avoid the impression it was a published game if that was a key defining characteristic. I would add that the art of the Undertale switch cover doesn't really help much compared to the screenshot already in the article, and because we have a free logo vs a non-free cover, it is sufficient to just use the logo. (Rocket League was a different case where we had a non-free (the logo itself) and it was a choice of a different non-free to use. If the Undertale cover had more interesting or useful features, I would reasonable agree to that. Heck, if anything, the original Kickstarter image (the drawn art) would be a better image to use to ID the game than the Switch cover art). --Masem (t) 13:41, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

@Masem: I wouldn't mind using the Kickstarter banner as the lead image. It's better than having absolutely nothing; a repeat of the article's title in a stylised font is as good as nothing for a lead image anyways. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 17:36, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

@Rhain: Refer to my reply to Masem above this comment. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 06:24, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

I saw your response, but I still don't believe that's consensus to change the image. The game's logo is a free file (and, in my opinion, effectively illustrates the topic), which immediately places it as a preference to the Kickstarter banner, which is a fair-use image and should be replaced with a free image where possible. – Rhain ☔ 06:28, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

@Rhain: But as I already stated, it's effectively useless as a lead image because it is a repeat of the article and infobox's title with a stylised font and design. We see nothing of the game itself until the article body, and that's a failure of the lead image. The logo is basically as useful as having nothing in the image parameter for {{Infobox video game}}. Also, three days had gone by since the original discussion without reply or additional comment, so I went ahead with the change per WP:SILENCE which states "consensus can be presumed to exist until voiced disagreement becomes evident." There was no disagreement in those three days nor four days after the change. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 06:45, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 August 2018

It was confirmed in today's Nindies showcase that Undertale will release on switch in September 18, 2018, so... Serouj2000 (talk) 16:29, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

•  Done --Alexandra IDV^talk 18:38, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 November 2018

Deltarune's october 31th's reveal is being considered as a whole game by itself, while it is explicitly only the first chapter (see Deltarune's website as source). Also, the 1st chapter itself says that Toby Fox is working on the rest of the game and will be releasing it in the future (check the library computer's lab at the end of the game). Murazaki (talk) 13:42, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

 Done, sourcing to indicate it is a "survey program" for his project. --Masem (t) 13:46, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Deltarune

As mentioned in the section, Deltarune isn't related to the Undertale besides some easter eggs. I believe that it should be in a separate section other than the "Release" section, preferably "Spiritual Successor", however it's not confirmed to be a spiritual successor. Nevertheless, it doesn't belong in the Release section. WikiBrainHead (talk) 03:37, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

We generally put preliminary details of sequels or related projects by the same dev who otherwise does not have a standalone page within development sections. --Masem (t) 04:17, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 December 2018

I request to fix grammatical errors regarding lower-case letters being in place of capital letters. Esteamerror (talk) 23:59, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

 Not done - I can't find any words in the article that are incorrectly capitalised as you just described. Can you point out where you've found these errors? User:Axisixa [t] [c] 00:17, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Axisixa, they are probably referring the the article not saying "UNDERTALE" all the time. However, @Esteamerror, we enforce MOS:CAPS here. Regards. Lordtobi (✉) 07:33, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Plot section management

I'm starting this talk section as suggested by Ferret's latest edit (Feb 16, 2019), which reverted my changes to the plot section.

A few months ago, I expanded the plot section by essentially rewriting the whole thing. During this rewrite, I removed some elements that included spoilers and information about the game's multiple endings.

What I want to clarify is that I did not remove these elements *because* they were spoilers or endings. I removed them as part of my effort to streamline the discussion of the game's plot in a way that is readable, engaging and that raises the quality of the article. I don't care about keeping the article spoiler-free and my rewrite of the plot section kept many spoilers intact.

Other editors keep re-modifying the plot section in a way that tries to bastardize details about the game's plot to fit into two jumbled up sentences. I am asking for that to stop. Either take your time to describe the game's plot with the detail and nuance that it deserves, or don't. Insisting on summarizing the game's endings and secrets in two sentences transforms the article's plot section into a cringeworthy read that does not accurately reflect the game's true plot progression or substance in any way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaepora~enwiki (talk • contribs) 19:19, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

You're free to help improve the sentences about the endings if you feel they are confusing or poorly worded. However, they should not be removed wholesale. We do not hide spoilers or endings, and since that is the only content you're removing (rather than rewriting), that is the appearance you are giving. Especially since secondary reliable sources have covered the multiple endings, we cannot omit the details. Personally, if the plot section is considered to be subpar now, it might be best to revert to the Good Article reviewed version of the plot seen here. -- ferret (talk) 19:26, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

To add, the fact that Undertale has at least 3 distinct endings is well noted by sources, and this should be covered. --Masem (t) 19:29, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

I don't agree with your judgement, but I respect your seniority as editors and will do as you suggest. Kaepora~enwiki (talk) 18:14, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 February 2019

167.21.42.21 (talk) 14:28, 22 February 2019 (UTC)undertale acually was based off of homestuck

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -- ferret (talk) 14:39, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 February 2019

Cacdcdamcd (talk) 14:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC) undertale is a awesome game it is availble on many consoles and yucan play it anywhere

 Not done: It's not clear what you want to change, this sentence cannot be added to the article as written. -- ferret (talk) 14:40, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Country of origin and WikiProjects

In regards to this edit @Masem:

My understanding is that it's standard to tag a video game with its country of origin, as a Japanese-published videogame would be tagged with WikiProject Japan, and one published from France would be tagged with the French WikiProject. The creator is American and it was self-published from the United States. WhisperToMe (talk) 06:00, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

I've never seen that be done before, it's certainly not a standard. There may be a few odd ball games with a particularly deep connection to a country to warrant that, but by and large we do not considered the developer or publisher to represent a strong national tie. -- ferret (talk) 14:01, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

@Ferret: In particular Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan covers every single Japan-produced game (as in a game made by mostly Japanese employees, in Japan, and/or with the company being Japanese). This issue came up with Mighty No. 9: The WikiProject Japan editors made it clear that this game was in the project's scope: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Japan/Archive/September_2016#Japanese_video_games_and_being_a_part_of_this_project. That's a huge chunk of the video games out there.

Another thing to consider is that there are inherent ties behind being the "country of origin" of something, whether it's any airline (not only the national airline), or any city, or any popular comic series (the Anime and Manga WikiProject is a daughter project of the Japan project), or any type of food. Japanese-made video games, for example, have cultural quirks representing the larger popular culture of that country (style of humor, art style, etc.). Same goes with creative media (video games included) made in the U.S., or France, or Germany. This is perhaps why there are specific WikiProject task forces for American film (a joint task force between Film and US), Indian film, European comics, and World comics (in addition to the Japanese examples).

WhisperToMe (talk) 16:55, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

There is something to be said for games made in Japan being part of the Japan Wikiproject due to the culture they usually present, but other videos are far less dependent on the country they are made in. That is, we basically distinguish between the Japanese games and Western video games, unless film where country of production is very important. --Masem (t) 17:54, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Even within the West there may be differences in culture between say games made in Europe or North America (I visited the video games museum in Berlin, and I believe Germany has a much stronger PC game culture while the US has a stronger console culture). It would be interesting to see how video game literature describes the country/cultural divisions. Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics has United States comics, British comics, Canadian comics, European comics (including Franco-Belgian), and World Comics (Asia except Japan, Latin America, Africa, and Oceania). I get the feeling that the comic and film projects account for the main categorization of their respective medias. I'll see if video game books discuss any significant divisions within Western video games. I wonder if suggesting that the Video games project make respective western games task forces (depending on my findings) could help.

I do get the feeling that some Europe-made games (Ubisoft, Rayman, etc) don't seem to feel especially European, though this holds true with other media and I've still tagged English-language films made by (non-UK/Ireland) European distributors with their respective countries. Man on Fire (1987) was a French-Italian co-production (it was set in Italy but the actors were mainly Americans), and Colombiana (2011) was made by a French company.

WhisperToMe (talk) 18:18, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Update I found a source that discusses American video games as a distinct group based on culture.

• Wolf, Mark J. P. Encyclopedia of Video Games: The Culture, Technology, and Art of Gaming, Volume 1. ABC-CLIO, 2012. ISBN 031337936X, 9780313379369. p. 661. ("American+video+games" Search result) "The Character of American Video Games With the wide variety of video games in existence, it is difficult to argue for a cultural resemblance among them all that stems from American cultural values; however, a few broad generalizations can be suggested. First, the highly competitive nature of American society makes for fertile ground for competitive gaming, and it should be no surprise, then, that the majority of video games are competitive ones[...]"

I also will message the Wikipedia:WikiProject United States project to see how the members feel about including video games in its scope, much like how the WP Japan project made a definitive statement about its scope.

WhisperToMe (talk) 04:25, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 March 2019

Change "Frisk must first give their soul to the fallen human child in exchange for restoring the universe." to "THE PLAYER must first give their soul to the fallen human child in exchange for restoring the universe." Jordan Biordi (talk) 15:26, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: It's more correct as currently written. The human player sitting at the console is not giving up their soul (I hope), the character in the game is. It's okay that the plot summary is written from an in-universe perspective like this. See MOS:FICT § Plot summaries of individual works. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 17:26, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Small edit request

There are actually multiple developers in undertale, please edit developer(s) section Cks10491 (talk) 11:55, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Deltarune

It's been released, not just revealed Cks10491 (talk) 11:58, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 May 2019

I wish to add sentence to the plot section that I believe is relevant and helpful. Bwajuka (talk) 14:41, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

What is the sentence and what part of the plot section are you referring to? --ThomasO1989 (talk) 14:42, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Not done: Your request is blank or it only consists of a vague request for editing permission. It is not possible for individual users to be granted permission to edit a semi-protected page; however, you can do one of the following:

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Sans image caption

Right now it reads "Sans, one of several monsters within Undertale", which doesn't seem to justify the character's notability. It used mention him being an internet icon, but I removed that statement as it was unsourced. Should we re-add that statement and find a source for it, or rephrase the caption in another way that justifies the image's inclusion?--Megaman en m (talk) 20:17, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

I think the latter is better as I don't know why sans appears in that place. (Although if he is notable enough, he will have his own article in Wikipedia since Toriel and Flowey have their own article) Mariogoods (talk) 14:10, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Sans would meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines, but someone would actually have to go through the effort of starting that article. Spend a bit of time looking for a reliable source that would verify his popularity, couldn't actually find one (that specifically talked about Sans). I'll remove the image for now, it doesn't add much to the article anyways.--Megaman en m (talk) 14:47, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 July 2019

Change "in which Frisk becomes influenced by the malevolent spirit of the fallen human child whose body Asriel attempted to return." to "in which Frisk is assisted by Chara, the first fallen human child whose body Asriel attempted to return to the surface." Casualguy69 (talk) 19:59, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

 Done Masum Reza^📞 22:38, 26 July 2019 (UTC)