Talk:Waterstones/Archives/2013

Sacking of Blogger

A few years back Waterstones caused an outcry in the blogosphere and regular media when it sacked one of its Edinburgh staff for blogging. IIRC there were no names of staff, customers or even the store but he was sacked because he was critical of customer behaviour, other staff and management attitudes. The incident is mentioned on wiki at Woolamaloo Gazette but I feel should be included here because of the controversy surrounding it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Epocalypse2 (talk • contribs) 10:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

This is precisely the sort of trivial incident that should not be mentioned. Not everything that is true belongs in a Wikipedia article, as they should provide a balanced overview. Lists of petty controversies do not provide balance, but simply make Wikipedia look like a blog produced by anti-corporate activists. Wimstead (talk) 15:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Size of Piccadilly store

I have often heard the claim that the Piccadilly store is the largest in London/England/Europe, and as a regular visitor to all the main central London bookshops I have refused to believe it. Foyles obviously has far more books. As it happens, the stats used in this article to "prove" the claim demonstrate that it is false, or at least deliberately misleading. It was claimed that the Piccadilly and Gower Street shops combined have 14 miles of shelving, but Foyles has 30 miles according to its article. I have therefore removed the whole comment about the size of the Piccadilly branch. It may well be that the Piccadilly store is larger than Foyles by volume as it has much higher ceilings and more widely spaced shelves, but I don't think that is a sensible criteria for measuring a bookshop. Nor is it a standard criteria for measuring shops in general, which is done by area, not by volume. Wimstead (talk) 15:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Disputed text

• Tim Waterstone changed the face of British bookselling, bringing modern marketing techniques to the sale of highbrow, academic and literary books, providing a "browser friendly" atmosphere, with knowledgeable booksellers (combined experience 23,055 years), a wide range of titles, and smartly-designed shops.
  
• Ottakar's enjoyed an exceptionally high morale amongst its staff and the Waterstone's takeover was not well received. Within two years, 70% of Ottakar's managers had left the business.
  
• A staff opinion survey conducted in 2007 revealed a very low morale amongst booksellers and managers.
  

I removed this text out (and put back the text removed in) of the main article and have put it up for discussion here for two main reasons. While I understand some people may consider this to be "fact", the tone and the content of at least the first two paragraphs are not neutral. Either someone could rewrite this to sound less like marketing and/or personal opinion AS WELL as back it up with verifiable sources, then by all means, transfer the text back to the article. Otherwise, we have no choice but to leave it out. Concerning the last paragraph, I am under the impression that this staff survey (like most staff surveys) was not released to the public, therefore this is most likely a case of WP:COI. Unless there is a verifiable source that can be cited with ease, then i propose to permanently leave this out of the article. Whether it is true or not, we cannot put it in if we can't verify it. For the moment, please don't change the article to put this text back in until we have some sort of concensus and verifibility about these paragraphs. Thankyou - RandomArticles 10:38, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

It was indeed an internal survey, not released to the public and therefore it fails WP:V.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 00:21, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

• In recent years the market for books in the United Kingdom has become more competitive. Owner HMV Group has responded with a "more commercial focus... without compromising on the unrivalled range authority and bookseller knowledge, for which the chain is renowned." Today's Waterstone's is owned by a music retailer and run by people who do not have a specialist book knowledge, but have experience in other areas of the high street. The aim is to have a chain of bookshops with staff who are passionate about books, but managed by people who understand the challenges of the 21st century retail environment.

• In May 2007, Waterstone's announced its intention to 'harmonise' contracts for existing staff and those joining from Ottakar's. Many employees and the UNITE union have criticised the changes, which include a pay freeze for both the longest-serving and most senior career booksellers, as well as compulsory working on bank holidays, more frequent working at weekends, and cuts to overtime and sickness benefit payments.

Do these inclusions not stand out as absurd to anyone else, to require immediate removal? They are unverified - and Wikipedia is not for things made up one day. I can't understand, also, how claims from 2007 are relevant? Shouldn't the entire "criticisms" section be removed if we follow the standards mentioned earlier on this page? "This is precisely the sort of trivial incident that should not be mentioned. Not everything that is true belongs in a Wikipedia article, as they should provide a balanced overview. Lists of petty controversies do not provide balance, but simply make Wikipedia look like a blog produced by anti-corporate activists." - Ruokasi (talk) 23:55, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Not just unverified, unverifiable in my opinion. The first statement I believe comes from one of HMV Group's annual reports. The second statement doesn't really make sense. Waterstone's recruits both from within and outside of the book trade. Some staff will have "specialist book knowledge", others may not. Completely unsupprtable by a source. The merger with Ottakars did, obviously cause some disruption and dissatisifaction amongst some of the staff but this kind of thing happens with any merger and as you say is hardly of interest to general readers of an encyclopedia. I agree that all this stuff should be left out.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 00:21, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I am happy with the current edit - I had merely put back in some of that text as it had disappeared without explanation during some of the earlier reversions. remainder of criticisms section seems sourced, and probably of interest on issues like publishing, freedom of speech, religion etc? Babakathy (talk) 09:31, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

"Since 2003, Waterstone's has supported Dyslexia Action UK as its chosen charity to raise awareness and understanding of dyslexia.[2]" This is now oncorrect as Waterstone's recently moved to support the Rainbow Trust.

Re-use of historical buildings

I removed the Liverpool One store from the list as it was a brand new building! Iainjones1980 (talk) 18:32, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Is Waterstones one of Britain's favourite retail outlets?

I am sure that I heard on television earlier this year (2011) that Waterstones was one of Britain's favourite retail outlets. In fact, I seem to recall the television piece said it was Britain's third favourite outlet, behind two supermarkets. Does any one else remember this? ACEOREVIVED (talk) 19:55, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

HMV Sell up to trust fund controlled by Russian billionaire Alexander Mamut

Guardian is reporting that Waterstones isn't owned by HMV anymore. Means some edits are needed but I don't have the time to do them. HMV sells Waterstone's for £53m

I was thinking about pointing out too that I had heard how HMV are being sold to a Russian business man - it is a good job you got in first, as, unlike me, you remember his name! ACEOREVIVED (talk) 23:18, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the website - I have now put the information in the article and added the website so I cannot get accused of an unclear source. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 23:22, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Largest bookstore in Europe?

This article claims that Waterstone is the largest bookstore in Europe. While there is a source for it, the source happens to be Waterstone's own web-page, which cannot be seen as a NPOV source by any standard. I am not saying that Waterstone's is the largest bookstore in Europe. It might well be. I'd just want a neutral source for the claim, preferably one that shows Waterstone's compared to other "giant" bookstores such as Akateeminen Kirjajauppa in Helsinki, Gibert&Joseph in Paris and Foyles in London. I've heard the claim about Europe's largest bookstore for all three of those as well.Jeppiz (talk) 13:00, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Good Article candidacy

Hello anyone vaguely interested...

It seems i have some spare time on my hands, and i reckon it can't be too difficult to drag this article up to good article standard, however, having worked on GA status before, i know its always much better to get other people in to help and give opinions on what needs doing, what looks good, what looks bad etc.

If you are interested in helping out in that respect, please don't hesitate to contact me on my talkpage, or preferably on here. I'll be tinkering about for the next few weeks or so, so I'll notice any offers of help. There are some issues that definitely need to be addressed, especially the ever present 'largest bookstore' debate, but we'll get to that bridge when we do

regards, RandomArticles 08:08, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Ohhh, exciting, putting the article up for GA nom. now RandomArticles||Talk 01:53, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Removal of apostrophe

I know that the beginning of the article implies this, but more could be made here of how in January 2012, Waterstone's lost their apostrophe, and the controversy to which that led. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 21:50, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

There's a paragraph in the Controversies bit, if you didn't see that. Personally, although if you can make a case for it do say, I think that's enough on the subject there - especially in relation to the other noted incidents - as the detail is covered in the paragraph sufficiently. RandomArticles||Talk 23:18, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Great - thank you, I see it is there, I have now read the paragraph with the sub-heading "Controversies". I thought it was a well-written and informative paragraph. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 00:31, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Waterstones/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Lemonade51 (talk · contribs) 21:36, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Query, Can I start working on this now, or would it be easier to let you finish your review before attempting to fix the problems? RandomArticles||Talk 14:19, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Start right away. – Lemonade51 (talk) 14:49, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Early Years/ W H Smith (1982–1998)

• Does years in 'Early Years' need to be capitals? I suggest you rename the heading to something like 'Early history', 'Formation'.
• "using literary authors in front-of-store displays", does in front of store need hyphenations? I take it the adverb 'in front' doesn't so I assume hyphens aren't needed.
• "This model proved successful, and the chain set about expanding its store portfolio...", remove comma between successful and 'and'.
• "However, by 1989, W H Smith...", remove comma between however and by.
• "as well as further domestic expansion, opening its 100th UK store", consider replacing the comma with an 'en dash' → –
• "By 1997, the agreement had collapsed and been declared illegal.", needs source.
  • Fixed RandomArticles||Talk 15:15, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

HMV Group (1998–2011)

• "In 1998, after a previous attempt by Tim Waterstone to buy the entire W H Smith group,[14] the group sold the chain for £300 million to a joint venture between EMI and Advent International called HMV Media plc (now HMV Group), which included the brands HMV and rival Dillons creating an international entertainment retailer." → Rephrase.
• 'concerns for the way the company was being run' needs quotation marks, not apostrophe.
  • Fixed RandomArticles||Talk 15:15, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Controversies

• book signing does not need a hyphen.
• "saying that the safety" → specifying the safety

Query, the fuller quote "saying the safety of its booksellers" is not sufficient? I'd imagine it's personal safety, despite the company not specifying as such when press releasing about this... RandomArticles||Talk 15:26, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

• Put "In October 2009" at the end of that sentence.
• "Waterstones reversed this decision" → its decision
• "In January 2012, the company announced that it was rebranding back to its original Baskerville typeface logo, and also saw the apostrophe in the name dropped, with the company styling itself from Waterstone's to Waterstones, claiming 'it was no longer practical in the modern world", Discombobulating. Rephrase that, I am looking for two sentences.
• Where is the source for James Daunt's verdict?

Query, what do you mean by Daunt's verdict? as in what he said in the press release, or where he got his reasoning for the move? RandomArticles||Talk 14:19, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Need a source for James Daunt said "Waterstones without an apostrophe is, in a digital world of URLs and email addresses, a more versatile and practical spelling". Basically where ever you got that quote, reference it. – Lemonade51 (talk) 14:49, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

• • Fixed RandomArticles||Talk 15:26, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Takeover

• Change 'Books etc' to something else.

That is the actual name of the former chain, see here, unless you meant change the whole paragraph? RandomArticles||Talk 16:33, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

References

• Remove YouTube link.
• For all BBC references put 'BBC News' as the work, 'BBC' as the publisher. I've done one example for you, do the rest.

Sure, hang on RandomArticles||Talk 16:33, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Fixed RandomArticles||Talk 16:46, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Righto, I'll give myself a day to do final spotchecks. By then I should pass this as a GA. Will notify you, most likely tomorrow of when that's done. – Lemonade51 (talk) 16:56, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Unreferenced text

As per this revision, I've moved the information here to await referencing before it goes back into the article. Anyone who can find reference to the following information:

By 1989 however, W H Smith had taken a controlling stake in the chain. Waterstone sold 49% of the company to W H Smith in 1993 for £9 million, with the balance being bought out in stages over the four years to 1993, giving a total selling price of £47 million.

Please add the sentence back into the article with the appropriate references. Thanks, RandomArticles||Talk 14:01, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Robert Topping

Why is there no mention of the sacking of Robert Topping, the Manchester Deansgate branch manager? His crime, I seem to recall, was wanting to sell literary fiction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.45.188 (talk) 21:15, 13 September 2012 (UTC)