User talk:Kerry Raymond/Archive 19
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| Archive 15 | ← | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 |
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Images and school articles
Hi Kerry, when creating the Trebonne State School article, I noticed that you uploaded a photo from the school's website and put it under the CC BY 4.0 license and I was just wondering if this can be done with any school article? Thanks, 2024 is Underway (talk) 01:26, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- OK, there are a number of considerations. First is the copyright issue. If you look at the Trebonne State School website, then down at the bottom of the page you will see this copyright link which tells us that the text and photos on this school's website are generally CC-BY-4.0, which is OK for use on Commons , but with some exceptions, e.g. school logos (and Commons also has restrictions on logos more generally), anything identified as being the copyright of someone other than the Qld Ed Dept (but they commit to trying to ensure they do properly identify such material), licenced learning materials (something you are unlikely to be interested in adding as photo to a Wikipedia article about the school), and the somewhat ill-defined "personal information e.g. photographs" (but I interpret this as "no photos" of people and no personal information about people, e.g. names, addresses, etc). And Commons also has a policy relating to photos of identifiable people, so add the two together and it pretty much means state school website photos of people are not suitable for upload to Commons. I note the same copyright notice is linked off all pages for all state school websites, but always double-check before uploading. Now, the copyright notice on Qld Ed school websites has changed over time so you may find photos uploaded in the past that might not be consistent with the current rules, but if they were consistent with the rules at the time, then it's OK. My point here is don't say "well, I see a similar photo has been uploaded in the past, I guess it's ok to upload this one". Always check the current copyright notice. So, the two photos I uploaded from the Trebonne SS website are both from the sliding photos on their home page. The first is of a school building with no logos and no people (tick!), the second photo which you might not have noticed as I did not put it in the Trebonne State School category is a nice view of the surrounding landscape near the school (with no logos, no people). OK, now sometimes you can copy a photo from a school website and crop it to eliminate a logo or a person. That's OK as CC-BY-4.0 permits modifications, just put the "Where did you find this work" as "Crop of ..." and then supply the details of webpage etc as usual. Similarly you can blur or otherwise remove a logo (again, note that you did this by adding some words to that effect "with the school's logo removed/blurred"). Now if we look at a different state school (chosen at random) Ingham State School, what might we use from the slider of 4 images. The only possibility here is a crop of the first photo to show the school building in the top left (removing the kids playing hopscotch). There is another photo lower on the home page of a classroom but it's full of kids. Of course there are usually more photos on school websites (lots if you are willing to read through dozens of past school newsletters) but most will be unusable photos of happy kids, but you do occasionally get lucky if you search the website thoroughly! It depends how much effort you are prepared to invest to get a photo this school. I usually do a cursory look in the "usual places" and if that fails, shrug and move on. If there's one thing about Wikipedia, it is that there is always something else you can be doing with your time. Kerry (talk) 08:38, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- The above applies to QLD state schools. Also, it also applies to the text as well as photos. Adding copied CC-BY text into Wikipedia articles is possible but needs to be acknowledged in the article (a whole separate topic, ask if you want to go down that rabbit hole). Non-state schools websites are usually All Rights Reserved copyright (the default if no other licence is explicitly stated); in theory, they could have a suitable CC licence but I don't think I've ever seen one that did, but occasionally they do have a historic photo of the school (must be pre-1955) which can be uploaded under the licence {{PD-Australia}} as photos taken in Australia before 1955 are out of copyright under Australian law. PD-Australia is the shorthand for "public domain under Australian copyright law" (Again, I can discuss further if you have a specific photo in mind). Kerry (talk) 08:58, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- I note that sometimes you will see a suitable photo on a school website except that it has text overwritten across it in a way that can't be cropped out. Sometimes the text is part of the image itself, but sometimes it is just overlaid on the image as part of the website presentation. So if you save the image to your computer, in the latter case you will get the image without the text (hurray!) so it never hurts to test such an image by saving. I can't think of a school's example off the top of my head, but the Qld Police website (also CC-BY licenced) has one here which looks like the wide load photo is covered in white text and blue boxes (unusable you might think), but save it on your computer and, hurray, it's a nice photo of a wide load with a police escort that you can upload to Commons under their licence. If you have a specific photo that you are not sure about uploading, show me the URL and I'll offer my opinion. Kerry (talk) 08:59, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you Kerry, this was really helpful! While I don't have a specific photo, this was more of a question for future reference. But to clarify, any photo in a school newsletter, without any kids/logos in can be classified under the licence? Additionally, what about photos on the school's Facebook page or other social media? Finally, off topic question, can a school's history section on its website be used as a last resort? (To just fill in the blanks of a school's history) or is it still not allowed because its a primary source? Sorry for all these questions, but no one's really interested in school articles, so there is really no 'Expert' on the topic I can ask (I plan to become that expert lol) Thanks again, 2024 is Underway (talk) 09:38, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- So long as the newsletter is on their school website with the CC-BY licence, yes. Facebook is a separate website so the CC-BY licence doesn't extend to it unless you can find an explicit statement that it does, similarly if there is a link from the school's website to any other website unrelated to the school, the copyright for the school's website does not extend to that other website (nobody can CC-BY-licence other people's website). Kerry (talk) 10:03, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for clarifying! 2024 is Underway (talk) 10:06, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- History from a school's website. I cite them all the time, nobody has ever objected for the basic facts of the date, the name of the first teacher, number of students, the size of the building, etc. Just don't include any hubris "from those humble beginnings, it has grown to be the best school in North Queensland." Now citing them is one thing, reusing the text verbatim does require an attribution. see Template:Creative Commons text attribution notice Kerry (talk) 10:12, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- oh ok, Thank you! 2024 is Underway (talk) 10:32, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Attributions can be put in a subsection of References called Attribution, see Buranda State School as an example. However, people tend to do this mainly when there is a lot of text copied under the Cc-By licence. If it's just a few sentences within a single paragraph, people often use a more lightweight text attribution template like the one I mention above as part of the citation, but I think if you only use the Visual Editor, you may not be able to do that. You might need to bite the bullet and learn a little wikitext to do it. Or rewrite in your own words (which is what I normally do, because it's less work than finding the right attribution template). It might be possible to do a "canned solution". If you look at my user page, it's got lots of my favourite citations (and partial citations) in wikitext to paste in via the Visual Editor (another time saver!). Kerry (talk) 10:33, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Or create a special template for the purpose. Kerry (talk) 10:35, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, I'll keep this in mind, thanks again for helping me with this, it's appreciated!, 2024 is Underway (talk) 10:40, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- The use of the school history from the school's website is allowed under Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves (see points 1 through 4) but point 5 is important. The article can't be entirely based on the school's website as it fails to demonstrate notability. I have done articles on heritage-listed schools because state heritage status is accepted as evidence of notability. You may struggle with notability on the average state school, which is why I generally include just a brief description of the school and its history in the town/suburb article. Evidence of notability is required for the article topic but not for article content. Kerry (talk) 10:56, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- oh ok, thanks. As for a school's notability, I tend to find at least one source that is either ABC News, Nine News (excluding A Current Affair), 7 News or the Guardian. If a school does not have at least one of these sources, I don't write about it. This is mainly due to these sources being 'national' and not 'local', which defines notability. Local sources just help with filling in the gaps. For example: Abergowrie State School 2024 is Underway (talk) 11:17, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- OK, I just wanted to make sure you understood about notability as you could waste a lot of time writing articles that ended up deleted otherwise. Kerry (talk) 22:25, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just looking at Abergowrie State School, I would make the following comments about school opening dates. There are a number of different sources and often they don't agree. It also depends on what the sources mean by "opened". Does it mean the day the first child enrolled, or the first day lessons started, or the day a dignitary turned up and cut a ribbon sometimes before or more usually some time later? I Often the source isn't clear what "open" means. The Queensland Family History Society database is usually the most reliable because they index the names of students, which they get (when they can) from the admission registers, or when they are not available that way instead from things like books published by the school itself for significant anniversaries, which is often based on locally-held records. Newspapers may report openings (of whatever kind). I find that Queensland Govt online site for opening and closing dates of schools tends to be least reliable (and I don't know what sources they use). Also the Queensland State Archives also tries to pin down the dates of schools based on records they hold. But despite everyone's best efforts, they do often end up with different dates (or no dates at all). So I check all these sources and see what they say and often engage in correspondence with QFHS and the Archives about these things which may result in updates (the Dept of Education does not appear to be interested in discussing school openings). With the QFHS data, I am a member of the society so I can see on their database what the source is. For Abergowrie, it is from one of the school's two history books (which I'd call a 2nd-best source, which usually means they could not access the admission records). However, the Qld Ed date of 6 July 1953 must be wrong. This newspaper article says the school is going to open on 23 Feb, but "going to" and "does" aren't always the same thing, but it's probably unlikely to be earlier than that date. The newspaper on 5 March 1953 reports on the official opening by Jesson (who was the local MLA for Hinchinbrook at that time) and saying the school opened "last week" and there were already 38 enrolments, and looking at a 1953 calendar shows that Mon 23 Feb would have been "last week" from the perspective of 5 March, so all the evidence points to Mon 23 Feb. And nothing seems to support the Qld Ed date. Kerry (talk) 23:28, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Closing dates are nightmares as there is the last teaching date, but formal closure may not occur until years later when the Dept of Ed have decided there is no prospect of the school ever reopening. Most schools close because enrolments gradually fall away to very low (or zero) numbers, often reflecting declining population as a whole. Newspapers don't tend to find that interesting to report. Closing dates are much harder to pin down than openings. Even now, we have a number of schools in those "grey zones" of not teaching but not closed, e.g. Urandangi State School (see https://urandangiss.eq.edu.au/), Tresswell, Givelda, Burra Birri, and these are just ones I've noticed, doubtless there are more. Kerry (talk) 23:38, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, Kerry! This was super helpful. I will add the following to the article using the sources provided: "The school opened on 23 February 1953, and was officially opened on Saturday, 28 February 1953 by the MLA for Hinchinbrook at the time, Cecil Jesson." The internet Archive appears to be down at the moment for Maintenace, so I will have to add it when it is back up and running. Now, the official date of opening by Cecil Jesson is questionable, but I do think it is correct because the source that says the opening on the 23rd said "It will officially open next Saturday" and the Thursday, 5th March article says "was officially opened last week". 2024 is Underway (talk) 10:19, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- And with the Queensland State Archives, it appears to not have an agency page for all schools. For example, I managed to find one of Trebonne State School, but not Abergowrie State School, which is incredibly frustrating when trying to find opening dates. 2024 is Underway (talk) 10:29, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, school agency records seem somewhat hit and miss Kerry (talk) 11:07, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- It seems that this school's history is not quite so simple. This source states: "Abergowrie State Primary School was opened on Saturday 21 February 1953 by Mr. C. G. Jesson, M.L.A. assisted by the Regional Director of Education Mr. A. Whitmee. The building, which was just finished a week before the first school term began on February 23," but it is a blog, however, it does provide sources at the end, which I will investigate when trove is back up. 2024 is Underway (talk) 12:01, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- I know the blog you are referring to. It's useful and seems to use appropriate sources. But, as I say, there is always some fluidity in relation to what is meant by "open"and interpretation of sources can be influenced by what you think you already know (confirmation bias). Newspapers also sometimes hold over stories to "slow new days" so a story that talks about "last Saturday" may be delayed in publication by enough days that "last Saturday" is actually a week earlier than you think. So, there comes a point where you may decide you have to write "Abergowrie State School opened circa Feb 1953 [cite][cite][cite]" because the sources provided do support that but maybe don't collectively support an exact date. If you are up for a trip to the State Library of Queensland, they hold these two school histories. Tip if you are not familiar with SLQ, as the books are not on shelf but in storage, create an account and then request them from the catalogue before your visit so they will be ready waiting for you when you arrive (retrieval takes about 30 mins to an hour and they will keep them at the desk for about 5 days after your request before returning them to storage, longer if you ask for it). Kerry (talk) 21:46, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- More on SLQ. If you don't have an immediate plan to visit SLQ, you can also use the login to "favourite" the books, so when you do get around to a visit, you can remember what it was that you wanted to look at and then pre-request it. Kerry (talk) 21:55, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- I might have to, to uncover the truth! But these sources can be used as a reference right? I wouldn't see why not. As for the blog, the info is really helpful. For example, it provides the reason why it's still open even though it has low enrollment figures "Today, the community has shrunk, and school numbers have declined with parents choosing to send their children to larger schools in Ingham. However, due to the distance to these schools, and the remoteness of some children’s properties the school is kept open by the State Education Department." And was wondering if it could to be used as a reference? The author seems to be a historian and a reputable one at that. I tried to find out if blogs can be used on Wikipedia and read this, but it hasn't been touched since 2009. 2024 is Underway (talk) 22:04, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, it's a source I would be willing to cite for the reasons you give, reputable author, provides sources. I almost certainly have cited that source on Wikipedia (I think in relation to some church history). The question of "what is a reliable source" is always somewhat in the eyes of the beholder though. We have people on Wikipedia for whom citing is not something they are accustomed to doing, so they often look for or seek to develop rigid guidelines of what is and isn't acceptable to make it easy to judge/enforce. I've written and reviewed publications (which required citations) all my working life, so I am more self-confident about my ability to judge these things without rigid guidelines. Relative to the importance of the information being cited, who wrote it, where /when did they write it, why did they write it, what circumstances or motivation might lead them to be less than truthful? What better sources might exist that could have reasonably been consulted? What harm could arise if the information we add to Wikipedia is incorrect in this regard? In this case, who benefits from lying about a school opening date?! Anyone?Yes, there may be errors in sources, because we are discussing events of 70 years ago and information does get lost over time, but there's no source that we've discussed which has any real motivation to mislead us and a number of them cite their sources. And thanks to the digitised newspapers on Trove, we have access to contemporaneous sources in this case, which are discussing events of previous weeks not 70 years ago. Yes, someone might strongly object to it as a source because it's a blog, but given the number of sources we have, does it matter if we didn't use that source? Given the amount of completely uncited content we have on Wikipedia, I think we have way more than enough source material wrt to the opening of the Abergowrie State School. Kerry (talk) 22:39, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Kerry, I have added the info from the blog, which also led me to the specific council, which provided even more information. I also uploaded the image on the blog under the {PD-Australia} copyright due to the image being from 1953. but commons needs a U.S copyright "You must also include a United States public domain tag to indicate why this work is in the public domain in the United States." Finally, with the opening date I said this: "The school opened on 23 February 1953, and was officially opened by the MLA for Hinchinbrook at the time, Cecil Jesson." I will add the date if it is found in one of the jubilee booklets. Thanks again for all your help, this will really help when writing and fixing up future school articles. 2024 is Underway (talk) 03:36, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, as someone who has uploaded hundreds of PD-Australia photos for over a decade, my experience is that you don't need to do anything more than assert PD-Australia with a pre-1955 date for the photo. I really have no idea why that message is displayed. Kerry (talk) 03:45, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, I do see the same message too, it's not targetting you in any way. There used to be issues where people in the USA seemed to think that local (Australian) copyright laws did not apply in Commons and that everything had to comply with US copyright laws, but I think as part of free trade agreements developed over the years, mutual respect for other countries' copyright systems have been largely resolved through those agreements. Kerry (talk) 03:51, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- Ah ok, thanks for the clarification. 2024 is Underway (talk) 03:52, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, I do see the same message too, it's not targetting you in any way. There used to be issues where people in the USA seemed to think that local (Australian) copyright laws did not apply in Commons and that everything had to comply with US copyright laws, but I think as part of free trade agreements developed over the years, mutual respect for other countries' copyright systems have been largely resolved through those agreements. Kerry (talk) 03:51, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, as someone who has uploaded hundreds of PD-Australia photos for over a decade, my experience is that you don't need to do anything more than assert PD-Australia with a pre-1955 date for the photo. I really have no idea why that message is displayed. Kerry (talk) 03:45, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Kerry, I have added the info from the blog, which also led me to the specific council, which provided even more information. I also uploaded the image on the blog under the {PD-Australia} copyright due to the image being from 1953. but commons needs a U.S copyright "You must also include a United States public domain tag to indicate why this work is in the public domain in the United States." Finally, with the opening date I said this: "The school opened on 23 February 1953, and was officially opened by the MLA for Hinchinbrook at the time, Cecil Jesson." I will add the date if it is found in one of the jubilee booklets. Thanks again for all your help, this will really help when writing and fixing up future school articles. 2024 is Underway (talk) 03:36, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, it's a source I would be willing to cite for the reasons you give, reputable author, provides sources. I almost certainly have cited that source on Wikipedia (I think in relation to some church history). The question of "what is a reliable source" is always somewhat in the eyes of the beholder though. We have people on Wikipedia for whom citing is not something they are accustomed to doing, so they often look for or seek to develop rigid guidelines of what is and isn't acceptable to make it easy to judge/enforce. I've written and reviewed publications (which required citations) all my working life, so I am more self-confident about my ability to judge these things without rigid guidelines. Relative to the importance of the information being cited, who wrote it, where /when did they write it, why did they write it, what circumstances or motivation might lead them to be less than truthful? What better sources might exist that could have reasonably been consulted? What harm could arise if the information we add to Wikipedia is incorrect in this regard? In this case, who benefits from lying about a school opening date?! Anyone?Yes, there may be errors in sources, because we are discussing events of 70 years ago and information does get lost over time, but there's no source that we've discussed which has any real motivation to mislead us and a number of them cite their sources. And thanks to the digitised newspapers on Trove, we have access to contemporaneous sources in this case, which are discussing events of previous weeks not 70 years ago. Yes, someone might strongly object to it as a source because it's a blog, but given the number of sources we have, does it matter if we didn't use that source? Given the amount of completely uncited content we have on Wikipedia, I think we have way more than enough source material wrt to the opening of the Abergowrie State School. Kerry (talk) 22:39, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- I know the blog you are referring to. It's useful and seems to use appropriate sources. But, as I say, there is always some fluidity in relation to what is meant by "open"and interpretation of sources can be influenced by what you think you already know (confirmation bias). Newspapers also sometimes hold over stories to "slow new days" so a story that talks about "last Saturday" may be delayed in publication by enough days that "last Saturday" is actually a week earlier than you think. So, there comes a point where you may decide you have to write "Abergowrie State School opened circa Feb 1953 [cite][cite][cite]" because the sources provided do support that but maybe don't collectively support an exact date. If you are up for a trip to the State Library of Queensland, they hold these two school histories. Tip if you are not familiar with SLQ, as the books are not on shelf but in storage, create an account and then request them from the catalogue before your visit so they will be ready waiting for you when you arrive (retrieval takes about 30 mins to an hour and they will keep them at the desk for about 5 days after your request before returning them to storage, longer if you ask for it). Kerry (talk) 21:46, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- It seems that this school's history is not quite so simple. This source states: "Abergowrie State Primary School was opened on Saturday 21 February 1953 by Mr. C. G. Jesson, M.L.A. assisted by the Regional Director of Education Mr. A. Whitmee. The building, which was just finished a week before the first school term began on February 23," but it is a blog, however, it does provide sources at the end, which I will investigate when trove is back up. 2024 is Underway (talk) 12:01, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, school agency records seem somewhat hit and miss Kerry (talk) 11:07, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- And with the Queensland State Archives, it appears to not have an agency page for all schools. For example, I managed to find one of Trebonne State School, but not Abergowrie State School, which is incredibly frustrating when trying to find opening dates. 2024 is Underway (talk) 10:29, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, Kerry! This was super helpful. I will add the following to the article using the sources provided: "The school opened on 23 February 1953, and was officially opened on Saturday, 28 February 1953 by the MLA for Hinchinbrook at the time, Cecil Jesson." The internet Archive appears to be down at the moment for Maintenace, so I will have to add it when it is back up and running. Now, the official date of opening by Cecil Jesson is questionable, but I do think it is correct because the source that says the opening on the 23rd said "It will officially open next Saturday" and the Thursday, 5th March article says "was officially opened last week". 2024 is Underway (talk) 10:19, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Closing dates are nightmares as there is the last teaching date, but formal closure may not occur until years later when the Dept of Ed have decided there is no prospect of the school ever reopening. Most schools close because enrolments gradually fall away to very low (or zero) numbers, often reflecting declining population as a whole. Newspapers don't tend to find that interesting to report. Closing dates are much harder to pin down than openings. Even now, we have a number of schools in those "grey zones" of not teaching but not closed, e.g. Urandangi State School (see https://urandangiss.eq.edu.au/), Tresswell, Givelda, Burra Birri, and these are just ones I've noticed, doubtless there are more. Kerry (talk) 23:38, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Just looking at Abergowrie State School, I would make the following comments about school opening dates. There are a number of different sources and often they don't agree. It also depends on what the sources mean by "opened". Does it mean the day the first child enrolled, or the first day lessons started, or the day a dignitary turned up and cut a ribbon sometimes before or more usually some time later? I Often the source isn't clear what "open" means. The Queensland Family History Society database is usually the most reliable because they index the names of students, which they get (when they can) from the admission registers, or when they are not available that way instead from things like books published by the school itself for significant anniversaries, which is often based on locally-held records. Newspapers may report openings (of whatever kind). I find that Queensland Govt online site for opening and closing dates of schools tends to be least reliable (and I don't know what sources they use). Also the Queensland State Archives also tries to pin down the dates of schools based on records they hold. But despite everyone's best efforts, they do often end up with different dates (or no dates at all). So I check all these sources and see what they say and often engage in correspondence with QFHS and the Archives about these things which may result in updates (the Dept of Education does not appear to be interested in discussing school openings). With the QFHS data, I am a member of the society so I can see on their database what the source is. For Abergowrie, it is from one of the school's two history books (which I'd call a 2nd-best source, which usually means they could not access the admission records). However, the Qld Ed date of 6 July 1953 must be wrong. This newspaper article says the school is going to open on 23 Feb, but "going to" and "does" aren't always the same thing, but it's probably unlikely to be earlier than that date. The newspaper on 5 March 1953 reports on the official opening by Jesson (who was the local MLA for Hinchinbrook at that time) and saying the school opened "last week" and there were already 38 enrolments, and looking at a 1953 calendar shows that Mon 23 Feb would have been "last week" from the perspective of 5 March, so all the evidence points to Mon 23 Feb. And nothing seems to support the Qld Ed date. Kerry (talk) 23:28, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- OK, I just wanted to make sure you understood about notability as you could waste a lot of time writing articles that ended up deleted otherwise. Kerry (talk) 22:25, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- oh ok, thanks. As for a school's notability, I tend to find at least one source that is either ABC News, Nine News (excluding A Current Affair), 7 News or the Guardian. If a school does not have at least one of these sources, I don't write about it. This is mainly due to these sources being 'national' and not 'local', which defines notability. Local sources just help with filling in the gaps. For example: Abergowrie State School 2024 is Underway (talk) 11:17, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- The use of the school history from the school's website is allowed under Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves (see points 1 through 4) but point 5 is important. The article can't be entirely based on the school's website as it fails to demonstrate notability. I have done articles on heritage-listed schools because state heritage status is accepted as evidence of notability. You may struggle with notability on the average state school, which is why I generally include just a brief description of the school and its history in the town/suburb article. Evidence of notability is required for the article topic but not for article content. Kerry (talk) 10:56, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, I'll keep this in mind, thanks again for helping me with this, it's appreciated!, 2024 is Underway (talk) 10:40, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Or create a special template for the purpose. Kerry (talk) 10:35, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- So long as the newsletter is on their school website with the CC-BY licence, yes. Facebook is a separate website so the CC-BY licence doesn't extend to it unless you can find an explicit statement that it does, similarly if there is a link from the school's website to any other website unrelated to the school, the copyright for the school's website does not extend to that other website (nobody can CC-BY-licence other people's website). Kerry (talk) 10:03, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you Kerry, this was really helpful! While I don't have a specific photo, this was more of a question for future reference. But to clarify, any photo in a school newsletter, without any kids/logos in can be classified under the licence? Additionally, what about photos on the school's Facebook page or other social media? Finally, off topic question, can a school's history section on its website be used as a last resort? (To just fill in the blanks of a school's history) or is it still not allowed because its a primary source? Sorry for all these questions, but no one's really interested in school articles, so there is really no 'Expert' on the topic I can ask (I plan to become that expert lol) Thanks again, 2024 is Underway (talk) 09:38, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- I note that sometimes you will see a suitable photo on a school website except that it has text overwritten across it in a way that can't be cropped out. Sometimes the text is part of the image itself, but sometimes it is just overlaid on the image as part of the website presentation. So if you save the image to your computer, in the latter case you will get the image without the text (hurray!) so it never hurts to test such an image by saving. I can't think of a school's example off the top of my head, but the Qld Police website (also CC-BY licenced) has one here which looks like the wide load photo is covered in white text and blue boxes (unusable you might think), but save it on your computer and, hurray, it's a nice photo of a wide load with a police escort that you can upload to Commons under their licence. If you have a specific photo that you are not sure about uploading, show me the URL and I'll offer my opinion. Kerry (talk) 08:59, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- The above applies to QLD state schools. Also, it also applies to the text as well as photos. Adding copied CC-BY text into Wikipedia articles is possible but needs to be acknowledged in the article (a whole separate topic, ask if you want to go down that rabbit hole). Non-state schools websites are usually All Rights Reserved copyright (the default if no other licence is explicitly stated); in theory, they could have a suitable CC licence but I don't think I've ever seen one that did, but occasionally they do have a historic photo of the school (must be pre-1955) which can be uploaded under the licence {{PD-Australia}} as photos taken in Australia before 1955 are out of copyright under Australian law. PD-Australia is the shorthand for "public domain under Australian copyright law" (Again, I can discuss further if you have a specific photo in mind). Kerry (talk) 08:58, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
