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The Signpost: 08 October 2012

Nobel Prize for Lloyd Shapley: Shapley–Folkman lemma needs FA copy-editing

Today mathematician Lloyd Shapley won the Nobel Prize in Economics, and so Nobel Week would be a good time for a related featured-article.

The featured-article nomination for Shapley–Folkman lemma was stalled because of concerns about the professional-prose criterion. Thanks a lot, Geometry guy! ;D

Help with copy-editing would be great.

In my dreams, I could imagine an animated illustration ... :)

Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:26, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Guitar

Are you are a keen guitarist like myself then? I know Dennis is. I used to be into heavy rock and metal and blues only but as I've progressed on guitar I've ventured in learning jazz and flamenco which is far more complex and demanding playing. I'd like to see Slash play this huh? I've been concentrating on expanding my chordal knowledge of late from my Encyclopedia of Guitar Chords casebook edition! I've found some unusual chord inversions of ninth and ninth flat.sharp fifth chords. Sounds good in jazz playing to move down inversions. But its pretty vast. Its weird that a C9 chord you can play on the 5th fret like a D minor 7 shape shifted up a string! Phallic architecture ready for DYK nom, with a bit of a polish and copyedit should pass GA. Now an FA on it eventually would be quite something! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:36, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, Slash has made his mark, and so hats off to him. ;)
That Spanish classical guitarist is very good. His playing sounds natural, rather than preening for attention. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:23, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
But its useless just learning chords of course, the trick of course is to be able to apply the different inversions and know how to connect with other chords and what licks will work over them. Like B7 chord accenting the D sharp and A notes and D sharp diminished tones etc which bring out the melody. Its worth learning as much as you can I think, it makes me a much better player! Now to have Joe Pass or Barney Kessel's chordal knowledge!♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:45, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Hey Dennis check out Doyle Dykes here. Also I was figuring out this the other day by Lawrence Juber, can't get his fat tone or super clean finger work though. Not bad considering is a C major composition!
Doyle Dykes is very good, and he seems like a nice guy. I'd attend his church! Let's hope that he continues living strong. :)
Another video of him performing While My Guitar Gently Weeps has helped overwrite this abomination clogging my memory. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:50, 18 September 2012 (UTC)


I've had a few lessons from Robert Conti on DVD. A Mafia boss staccato freaaaak. But knows his stuff alright.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:54, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

This is a great pleasure!
Last year, I had confessed to Malleus that I felt un-educated in my lack of understanding of music. At the time, a guitar was only a twinkle in my eye. My teaching myself guitar is also an attempt to understand basics of music.
In between professional and family responsibilities, I have been teaching myself guitar under inspiration from Robert Fripp: His Guitar Craft (GC) had performances in which (at least in my memory from record stores in the late 1980s) each guitarist played exactly one note---"circulations". When my wife and I rented an apartment with a (wretched guitar) on the wall last fall, I thought to myself, "I can play one note", and so I began with standard tuning and Hal Leonard. I have tried to emulate the GC technique---because they play beautifully, and also to avoid inflammation, which had already occurred through excessive typing last winter--- and some of its spirit in playing---for example, emphasizing relaxation.
I also wished to exercise the mephitic spirit of my junior-high band experience, which consisted in being given music to perform in concerts for parents---as fast, as high, and as loud as possible---with no discussion of musical history or theory or any ideas! Rather, I want to master basic guitar while understanding relevant musical principles, and have no ambition to become a publicly performing guitarist. I will be happy if I can make my wife and daughter happy. I find that playing guitar even for 15 minutes makes me more relaxed and productive when I return to mathematics or statistics.
I've started with frets 4-7 and am now working on frets 8-11, because they are most comfortable (noted long ago by principled guitar-pedagog Jamie Andreas, I've learned); frets 4-7 don't tempt me with open notes. (Fripp seems to emphasize the third and fourth strings and frets 7-8 in early GC, at least in the first primary exercise in the previously linked documentary.) I suspect that conventional teaching, with its emphasis on open notes, creates obstacles to fretboard fluency for most students, giving a false economy of early progress at the cost of a steeper climb from basic to intermediate guitarist.
I like major-thirds tuning, because its fretboard helps me to understand music. I've written myself exercises with Guitar Pro, trying to incorporate my very limited knowledge of musical theory. So I've learned frets 4-7 and now 8-11 via C-major scales, and lately consonant intervals tying together strings. (I've found this results in faster progress and more reliable skill than learning a few songs for each string.) Now, I'm beginning to learn chords, and I am working at mastering the major chords (in major thirds tuning). So you can see that my progress in writing articles about guitar music follows my self-instruction, rather closely.
(I do think that major-thirds tuning might be good for an aspiring guitarist, because it would encourage coherence and give the guitarist an outside sound....)
You may wish to look at the article on guitar chords, especially at the discussion of dominant seventh chords. I tried to write NPOV (and after prompting from Hyacinth did remove mention of major-thirds tuning), but Hyacinth did add a bit of qualification to a statement about playing dominant seventh chords in standard tuning. IMHO, it's obvious that such "dominant seventh chords" have little to do with their definitions (which we just gave in the article!) or even of inversions. I think that neither my attempt nor his response is the final word!
Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:26, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Well, Hyacinth and I seem to have resolved the tempest in a teapot, and he even reinserted my graphic (after having removed it with a comment like "removing obvious error"...). What more can one want? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:20, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

You're doing a tremendous job on guitar chords, keep it up. Yeah I was the same. From my teen years to my mid 20s all I did was play Hendrixy pentatonic stuff not even bothering to learn what every note was, just the most common ones you know, same with bar chords and basic chords. But it got to the stage where I was listening to guitarists like Satriani and Malmsteen and I wanted to be able to play like that. So I started learning the Harmonic minor and Phrygian dominant and diminished arpeggios and sweeping picking and arpeggios and stuff and also started picking up the Lydian and other modes and understanding them. I did that for about a year when playing Malmsteen stuff started to get boring. It was really seeing Robert Conti clips on youtube I think who made me stop and realise how little I actually knew about melody and how they work over chords. And exactly that, I wanted to know where that weird jazzy "outside sound came from". So I made the decision to learn every note and the "weird" seeming jazz chords and that. Since I've been struggling to figure out how melody and chords work and getting away from the trap of thinking you have to start soloing from the root of the chords like in a lot of rock and blues pentatonics. my playing has come on massively since. I think the biggest concept is the 2-5-1 thing and working out solos and chords in any key, its the most common in jazz, like F minor 9, to B flat 7 sharp 5 to E flat major 7, D minor 7 flat 5 to G 7 sharp 5 to C minor 7 etc. Learning the Melodic minor scale and all its modes and understanding how to apply them is also sophisticated stuff and that and the whole tone is basically where that "outside sound" is coming from. To play a descending melodic minor/altered scale a half step above. You can introduce it into your blues playing and stuff, like blues in A when the chord change from E 7 to D7 the passing chord E flat 7 you can quickly play a B flat melodic minor scale, the flat 7 of the chord, the D flat note sharing the common tone with the minor third of the melodic minor scale. And its those shared tones of course which is why they work. Another thing is learning any scale in any key and often starting with you pinky finger. It makes you see the neck differently and is the most common type of phrasing in those complex Pat Martino/Metheny like jazz phrasing.

But the most important thing I think is getting hold of tab books or DVD instructions of guitarists who are insanely good and study and learn their music. My Best of Joe Pass book by Wolf Marshall I learned more about how melody lines work over certain chords than from anything else I think, the Robert Conti cds though are just about as good. It does sound like gobbledy gook talking about it but knowing it all and how to apply it over even the most bizarre of chords will make you a much better player. The biggest compliment I had was from my uncle who came around to me house and thought my playing was an old school jazz cd! I'll continue to get as good as I possibly can, its an achievement to see how good you can get. I think the key is actual tab book study and to practice the lines again and again until the lines of the great are embedded in your playing and you can apply them in different keys with other things you learned. I have the greatest respect for the flamenco players though and have learned to play picados and rasqueados without a pick. Here's my favourite guitarist of any genre (Paco on the right). You'll find him inspiring as I do I think. This is the very top level of guitar playing!♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:10, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Have you or Dennis heard this guy play? My favourite electric player at the moment is Alex Hutchings though. Check out this and his other youtube clips. they're mostly jam sessions but he's astounding. How many modes does he use in this!!♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:42, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks again, Dr. B.!
It's a pity that there is no "musical theory for mathematicians" or "guitar for logicians", which would help a lot in writing an article.... Instead, there are dozens of "music theory for guitarists", which all look the same---making the market for mediocre statistical textbooks look like Springer Verlag's Grundisse series in comparison! (I think that I should give the dominant sevenths a rest for a few days.)
Onto personal matters: I did like the Spanish guitarist very much. :)
I couldn't really play the long-haired dude at the appropriate volume, because my daughter's sleeping.
My tastes run towards minimalism and simplicity. I love David Gilmour and Eric Clapton when they play slowly, and Jeff Beck when he plays sweetly. This is one my favorite performances by Fripp and a GC group. I've always enjoyed Stanley Clarke, but on the other hand I cannot understand why people like Al Di Meola...
For me, learning the guitar is part of learning about music, and I would be delighted to be able to play Cat Stevens or Bob Dylan songs. The difficulty of playing chords in NST is one reason why I gave up on it.
There is room for all kinds of musicians and music. Spanish guitar and David Gilmour are counter-examples to any claim that guitarists need to use their pinkies a lot! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:28, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
I have to learn about "2-5-1". I saw Julian Lage and he has a YouTube video where he discusses jazz progressions, and indeed 2-5-1 are the first words in the video. He also has a video from his childhood where he does a Maggot Brain duet with Carlos Santana. (19:18, 18 September 2012 (UTC))
Conti is very good, of course. Conti's left fingers fly-off into outerspace, which I suppose makes his playing more visually interesting. Fripp's hover over the strings, and my kind guitar-store owner told me that all lead guitarists have minimal finger movements. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:35, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Mahavishnu and Paco de Lucia are amazing, and both keep their fingers in orbit over their strings, unlike Conti: Too many notes for my taste. I prefer more traditionally melodic and lyrical music. Fripp once interviewed McClaughlin by the way, and I think their discussion is on line somewhere. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:45, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Oh I quite agree that complex jazz is not something you always want to listen to. Too much of Conti would get irritating, too many notes, too much staccato, but technically and fretboard knowledge he's a great person to learn from as opposed to listen to. I regularly listen to the "simple" guitarists like Clapton and such which sound melodically great rather than a technical whizz but I can't lisen to them for too long either without wanting to see more "impressive" playing. Lots of people laud Allan Holdsworth as the best player in the world but to me the vast majority of his music is horribly dischordal and lacking what music is supposed to be out. He's a technical genius but too much so. I like players with a lot of sophistication and technical ability but who are also melodic and fine musicians. Personally I think Larry Carlton is arguably the best electric player in terms of both which are quite rare. See this Yeah Al di Meola and John McLaughlin tend to go into mindless shred mode and play weird stuff, much prefer Paco de Lucia. DiMeola often sounds like a wasp in jam jar with his fasting plecrum acoustic shredding. If tone and sweetness "turns you on" Larry Carlton is definitely a guitarist to get into. This is a classic Room 335 its called. When you have a moment check out On Solid Ground on youtube both my dad and I rate it as one of the best albums we've ever heard. just enter the track name and Larry Calrton on youtube and you'll find it. Here's a sweet taster of one of the tracks here. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:31, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Allan Holdworth has played with many talented musicians.
A musicologist friend took me to see John Cage, and he loved it. I didn't understand it or see the point of sustained discordance. There's discordance in King Crimson's Red album, but it's resolved into concordance or at least into beautiful melodies that ache.
Sometimes, if I see somebody "shredding" (or any heavy metal guitarist), I think that they are to music what [BLP violation censored] is to beauty, or the Irish Elk was to evolution---too much obsession about antler size. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:11, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Yeah its called maturity, I feel the same! As a teenager and early 20s I used to come from the "faster is better" school of guitar. But they don't impress me much any more I'm much more impressed by a sweet but meticulously planned jazz solo. My dad send me an email last night on a Rippingtons track which Zakk Wylde guested on and the solo sounds really synthetic and just like he's playing fast scales. Rippingtons are usually jazzy though! See 3:25 onwards of the link. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:08, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

A man's gotta know his limitations...

KW indeed has a fever, and shall wait a while before discussing whether Kolmogorov or von Neumann or Gibbs or Fourier is more important than Turing and Gödel or Tesla (or the other weirdos featured in the bargain section of Barnes & Noble). Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:18, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

More tone

He's really good. :) And I love his Adrian Belew hair-progression, also! On the other hand, I feel that the music could sometimes be improved if the guitarist was not the center of attention. (But now, 5:57, in "So What (1997) on YouTube, he's made me smile.) When Julian Lage played in Scandinavia recently, he was up front, but the other guys often had the leads.
I do like Carleton's melodic songs, which include some of my favorites (and my wife's, such as the Philadelphia Soul songs...). This is a case where Carleton isn't playing too much or getting in the way of the music. I should listen again. Sometimes it's rewarding to listen closely to an arrangement that superficially sounds conventional, and then try to understand what's happening. My sandbox has a draft article on a Crafty guitarist who has interesting pieces, which took some time to appreciate, because I didn't understand that he was playing different guitar tracks.... Reimagining a song that originally featured Steve Howe must be a challenge for any guitarist, I think! :)
I like to think of Pat Metheny, whom you mentioned before. When he plays, I think the music comes first. (Fripp is probably the most extreme in trying to avoid the spotlight.)
I'm going to try to practice the next time the baby is awake. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:15, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Mr. 335 is great, but like so many others he's greatest playing in other people's compositions in other people's bands. I used to love this kind of music, and then...I'll leave it at that. What's with that picture? that awful haircut and the weird Tele? Oh, I got a couple of Mike Stern albums for sale...on vinyl...hardly played... Drmies (talk) 14:43, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Do you know E lydian type phrasing? I've been playing it a lot recently, Steve Vai uses it a lot but he tends to go overboard on the shred. Basically the fourth mode of a B major scale. Forgive me if you can play it, E, F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E,. Play those sort of notes on the 7 fret 5th strong from the E. Now slide up an E5 bar shape 2nd fret 4th string, 4th fret 3rd string slide that up to the 4th fret and 6th and 4th, 2nd then 4th then play the following chord Middle finger 6th fret 4th string, index finger 4th fret 3rd string, pinky 7th fret 2nd string and ring finger 6th fret first string on the A# (B flat note). E lydian chord. G # minor arpeggios and stuff work well over it. I've been improvising a lot recently over that sort of thing and intrducing F whole tone in with it. It sounds really good although like Vai I can't but help an immaturely play the odd tapped arpeggio. Here's the sound of E lydian here here. Sounds good if you ignoring the mindless shredding further on! Vai probably represents everything you hate about certain guitar players though LOL, he's essentially a show off, flamboyant, faster is better and often off focus and mindless. He can get real irritating, I mean the 3 neck guitar says it all! But that's the E lydian sound I was pointing out anyway..♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:20, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't listen much to Vai, but I know that he's more than the devil's guitarist in Crossroads. :) Fripp has stated that Vai is a more dedicated and better guitarist, and I think that Fripp has also volunteerd that a song of Vai's (For the Love of God) is one of his all time favorite instrumental songs. I think that Vai meditates and thinks about what he's eating, for health and to avoid causing pain, etc., and seems to be a good guy. I have nothing but respect for him.
C.f. Zappa:I like Zappa primarily for his training of Adrian Belew and other good musicians; I trust my musician friends who tell me that they love Zappa and that his music rewards attentive listening, as a proposition applying to sophisticates. He just doesn't do anything for me, except for his joke songs of satire or weirdness, of which a little joke about orgasmic dysfunction ("dynamo, dynamo") or "yellow snow" goes a long way. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:19, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Shawn Lane

Just been studying Shawn Lane's video on youtube. Some excellent ideas. I've been working out and drawing up a tab for his likes in here, especially the F# harmonic minor lick and the G mixolydian lick nearer the end see this.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:43, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

He seems to have been a nice fellow. It's sad that musicians so often have trouble getting medical care in the USA.
Take a look at the dominant sevenths discussion at guitar chords, please, in which Hyacinth's responses have turned from laconic to draconic. At most one of us can be right, and both of us may well be nuts. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
My copy of Tonal harmony by Kotska, Payne, and Almén arrived today. In half a year, I may know something about modes and understand a bit about what Fripp's directions improvisation in "A Dorian scale" means, with my playing. On the other hand, my verbal abilities trump my hand-eye coordination (although I have quick reflexes), and so I would be far more productive learning songs by Cat Stevens and Bob Dylan---and writing malicious but hopefully funny doggerel like a mathematician from Harvard than worrying about fast players. I would like to reconnect with prosody and verse, and better understand rhythm. Perhaps I can put Karl Shapiro's "Auto Wreck" [1] to music? (C.f., Dig Me) ;) More seriously, it's hard to practice guitar with my baby girl needing to sleep, etc., and I'd rather play with her than my guitar when she's awake, so I've not made much progress lately, but I'm happy. I can write more quietly than I can practice. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:54, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

A Dorian, 2nd mode of G major, pretty basic think of it as an A minor scale with a sharp 6th. you can use it to play over an Aminor 7 to D 7/9 blues type funk.

Anyway See these: [2] [3] ♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:38, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm looking for the biggest book of guitar licks/exercises I can find, know of any?♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:30, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Here's advice that I've read:
  • Listen to a jazz clarinetist or saxophonist. They cannot play chords, so their solos must be very interesting.
  • Play one string for six months (or two hours ...).
  • Learn a lot of great songs, especially a lot of great songs by a few guitarists.
Write your own songs. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Well, not many saxophonists can play chords. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:11, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
When I watched a documentary about congenitally joined twins, who shared 20-30% of each other's brains, I thought that with genetic engineering, one could build a human super computer. Now, I think that it would be more feasible to build a multi-saxophonist to play chords. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:51, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Not just feasible, but commercially quite successful. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:59, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
I know very little, but I am trying to do a few things well and in a state of relaxation, before I expand my skills. Because I've switched from OST (on a crappy acoustic) to (on an Ovation Celebrity) NST to augmented-fourths to major thirds (which seems like paradise), my left-hand progress has been slow, although my sinisterity and stamina have improved. I feel comfortable with alternate picking, now. I noticed that I had a dipthong slide when I switched between my index and pinkie finger, so I've been practicing with clarity. My right-hand has made steady progress, especially since I bought a metronome and lately have been using the metronome on Guitar Pro. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:37, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Scales and chord progessions

oh I do, I'm always listening to Stan Getz, Charlie Parker, Bill Evans etc trying to work things out. I have a book of jazz guitar licks in piano notation and its very difficult to work out! A dorian/A minor blues recommend jamming to this. Save it on cd. Its basically only A minor 7 to D 9/D minor 9 and the occasional B minor 7 flat 5 and E7 alt but its essentially a 2-5 jam A minor to D. Basically the F sharp is the key note here, the sharp 6th of the A minor scale which makes it A dorian, which is also the major third of the D9 chord, and the major 7 of a G major 7 chord. So slur and slide into F sharp playing all with it and play A minor blues/dorian type phrasing and you'll sound like a god like me hehe! I also add in an A melodic minor on occasion to throw in some extra spice, basically the same as Dorian but with a G sharp raised 7th instead of G, a flat 7th.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:22, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
OK I'm giving you and Dennis a headache with my theory knowledge..♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:57, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry, Dr. Blofeld, but it's difficult now to read anything serious, and especially given my lack of knowledge of chord theory, your postings are over my head. I shall be delighted to be able to play major, dominant sevenths, and minor chords fluently on the fretboard, and to be able to connect such chords in stereotypical but beautiful progressions. :)
When guitarists start talking about "D 9/D minor 9 and the occasional B minor 7 flat 5" it brings to memory junior-high discussions of bras :) and :( of my Kentucky relatives' genealogical discussions---which rivaled Icelandic OCD-sufferers for the precision of "2nd cousin thrice removed ...", which did give me headaches. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:35, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
Altered tunings
Funny but I think the same thing about altered tunings! It gives me a headache as you literally have to learn reprogamme your mind and learn a new "language" to play in altered tunings...♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:35, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
An earth-boring dung beetle working
Guitarists working in standard tuning have a lot of baggage to carry.

As a beginner, I don't worry about declaring a loss on my years of investment in remembering two inversions times two+ drops x 3+ chord-positions for each chord. In fact, I am relieved not to have to let ad-hockeries so encumber my experience of music.

It may be that major-thirds tuning is worth learning, for standard guitarists, when they wish to compose music or understand music theory: My fretboard is my friend. I don't think that a beginning guitarist in standard tuning can say that. ;) Kiefer.Wolfowitz 10:45, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The way of dexterity

I seriously worked on my picking by doing the Guitar Craft first primary exercise, which can be seen on the "Careful with that Axe" video, perhaps one among part 4 (after 5:20, especially 6:40---and remember that these are advanced Crafties..., not beginners). I also used a new pick (since my sweat had warn away the grippers on the old). The sound was much better than in weeks. It really helped to align my alternate picking, really economy picking. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:27, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Melodic minor

This set of lessons is well worth it. He looks the most unlikely guitarist to be knowledgeable and intelligent, looks more like he belongs in San Quentin, but never judge a book by its cover. You might find something useful from him..♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:33, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

It looked good, but such scales are just over my head.
He looks like a regular guitarist, to me. Having been a fan of the Pixies/Frank Black, Blues Traveler, and Pere Ubu, I am willing to listen with my ears even if the lead-singer is not pouting like a boy-band heart-throb. ;)
Speaking of pouting: Polish tapping guitarist Adam Fulara made this video after reading idiots' complaints that he needed more showmanship(compare). Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:49, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm trying to learn the major chords and their standard progressions, still. Now our daughter is sleeping longer but she is more awake then ever, and so I'd much rather play with her than practice. I am trying to improve the guitar chords article still. I suppose some discussion of open chords in major-thirds tunings, with open notes and duplication (using Sethares and Griewank), would be useful.
Maybe you could check on whether the Mel Bay (extended?) method has the same 15 basic chords that Denyer and Kolb/coauthor have? Maybe somebody in the UK can look at the Rock/Guitar School curriculum? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:47, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
Have you ever check out 4th chords, replacing the third with the fourth. This is quite good The F shape is the coolest!♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:35, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
That's a very interesting video. In major-thirds tuning, four consecutive fourths are very attractive for arpeggios, I think.
I see how Robert Fripp loves to make V--W diagonal shapes on 2--4 frets/strings (in OST or NST). Its nice to know that one can make similar diagonal arpeggios systematically!
Keep the suggestions coming! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:35, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Following ANI discussion

In response your comment at my talk page - the first part of your comment makes no sense can you explain clearer please? Regarding the second part - no I wasn't banned from your talk page, but I posted on your talk page twice and you immediately reverted twice. That indicated that you did not wish to discuss the matter. GiantSnowman 12:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Your stating that your having insulted MF as a paranoid "might not have been the most-constructive comment" suggests that you are in a state of denial. You need to own up to your behavior. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:51, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
I wrote an example of the kind of correction and accountability you should have displayed on MF's page. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:46, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 15 October 2012

Thank you

Thank you for taking the time to participate in my RfA. I hope that I will be able to improve based on the feedback I received and become a better editor. AutomaticStrikeout 02:42, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Good luck in the future. It must be nice to receive so many nice compliments from many editors. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 02:50, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Yes. It's not fun seeing all the opposes, but they were mostly friendly opposes (that just doesn't sound right). If your perspective is right and you don't have any skeletons in your closet, what is there to lose in trying? If you're already not an admin, you can't become any more not an admin than you already are. It's not like you necessarily have anything to lose. AutomaticStrikeout 02:59, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Tell me about it. I think the lowest point of my time here was my first RfA, back in 2007; it still pisses me off even now. The idea that you're not trusted is a difficult one to come to terms with, but in your case all it will take is time. I on the other hand am a hopeless case. :-) Malleus Fatuorum 03:07, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Moe Berg could speak 7 languages, but couldn't hit in any of them.
It is better to remember that the universe came into existence 15 billion years ago, and our sun 5 billion years ago. We have a billion years before the sun irradiates the earth, and the nearest neighbor is apparently only a lava world fit only for denizens of ANI. ;)
There is plenty to do just writing articles and trying to help other members of the community. There have been some recent books on Jewish major-league baseball players that may interest you: Moe Berg could speak 7 languages but couldn't hit in any of them. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:34, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Automatic, I got lucky on mine: all the mean people were on vacation. You're a fine editor, and you may well become a fine admin. Now, can I rant at Kiefer? Kiefer, you frigging liberal, will you fix the coding on this page? Even your talk page is leaning left--don't make it so obvious! Or are you waiting on the next Jack sock to fix it? Get on it man. (And how's fatherhood? Our boy started smiling recently--makes up for a lot of crying and farting.) Drmies (talk) 03:11, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Mamma knows to avoid kiwis and caffeine to avoid having our daughter cry for hours. Some probiotics have reduced the trumpets of Jericho from sounding at 4 am. Now, she is letting us know who is boss. We have to play the blinking sun playing 15-second music-snippets or face complaints. This morning, she showed that she may be an actress. There is nothing like a baby's frown to show you the meaning of :(.
I had to borrow her pacifier last night---like a Manchester raver---watching Romney and Obama. "My passion comes from my belief in God"(c.f.), etc.
Drmies, you may appreciate Loudon Wainwright III's thought on the father--son relations.
I don't understand the coding issue. The GAs and DYKs are crowded, but I've been too lazy to fix them. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:41, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your (re)consideration. I hope my answer to the plagiarism question doesn't put you back into oppose. I agree what the nominee in the other RfA did was poor form, but I think he's getting a crash course in close paraphrasing right now, which is why I ended up supporting him, since there don't seem to be other problems. Gigs (talk) 16:25, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

My wrath about the Assange case and your forthright (erroneous) disagreement misled my reason. You did accept the talk page consensus, reasonably and civilly, and I believe you have otherwise shown that you can be trusted to use the tools in the spirit of consensus. We need honest and intelligent administrators, since we have not found angels to govern us. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Categorization

I recently created Memphis Daily Post and I'm trying to figure out the best way to add it to a category related to civil rights. We don't have Category:Civil rights literature so I added it to Category:Civil rights organizations in the United States. The organizations in that category aren't similar to the newspaper. Can you think of a better way to categorize it? Ryan Vesey 17:14, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

I'll look at it.

Speedy deletions...

Speaking of civil rights, I don't understand your wanting a speedy deletion. You should take your argument for deletion to the resumed deletion discussion, but it's improper to use speedy deletion. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:36, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
I don't necessarily agree with the G10; however, the category doesn't serve a constructive purpose. I endorsed the deletion on the grounds of WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND; although, I didn't state that in my comment. I might clarify later. Ryan Vesey 18:08, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Ryan,
As I said, those are considerations for arguing for deletion through the standard deletion procedure. They are not grounds for speedy deletion, which is a procedure for obvious problems or BLP violations. Now I repeat myself.... Don't you think that the distinction is important? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:13, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Sometimes when you can't counter someone's argument, it means they are right. Ryan Vesey 18:30, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for reconsidering.
These procedural points, although they can be a headache or prolong contention in cases like this (from your perspective), are important in terms of fairness, I think.
Thanks again! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:37, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Southern (newspaper) man

I would ask at US history, which may have a Reconstruction task force. You might also look at the projects and portals associated with e.g. the great A. Philip Randolph. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:40, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Interestingly, Wikiproject US History has no work groups and WikiProject United States doesn't have a work group on the reconstruction or on civil rights. If I wasn't so busy, I might propose a task force, I might attempt to tackle it over Christmas break. Ryan Vesey 18:08, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
They must. Look at Tom Kahn or Bayard Rustin or The Messenger (magazine). Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:13, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
I added relevant WikiProjects. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:24, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for that, I'll use some of the categories from The Messenger as well. Ryan Vesey 18:30, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
That won't help much, alas. Try the project's discussion pages. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:37, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

It's unfortunate that the Stalinist Paul Robeson is more famous than Randolph, the architect of the civil rights movement. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:38, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Sadly, I am unfamiliar with either of those two; hopefully I will get a chance to study them sometime in the remainder of this semester. Ryan Vesey 14:20, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Study statistics, instead! ;D *LOL* Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:39, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Memphis newspapers for Freedmen

As it turns out, the Memphis Daily Post was published as the Memphis Morning Post, the Memphis Post, the Memphis Daily Post, the Memphis Evening Post, and the Memphis Weekly Post during its four-year career. The Library of Congress categorizes them as five separate newspapers. Should I create five separate small articles or include all of the information as one? Ryan Vesey 14:20, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it separates the various daily newspapers into separate titles so I feel that those should be one article and the weekly newspaper could have its own. Ryan Vesey 14:22, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
I don't see a problem with having one article, and then spinning off other articles if information accrues. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:39, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Southern newspapers supporting The Constitution
Southern newspapers, along with e.g. Republican lawyers, were among the heroes of the civil rights movement. One of the best defenses of personal privacy (and opposition to discrimination against gays) was written in an Atlanta paper in 2000 (at the time of International Symposium on Mathematical Programming). I think that the author of the Robert Maynard Hutchins biography Unseasonable truths
  • Ashmore, Harry Scott. Unseasonable Truths: The Life of Robert Maynard Hutchins. Boston: Little, Brown & Co., 1989.
was a former Southern editor who won a Pulitzer prize for his coverage of Apartheid in Little Rock, Arkansas. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 10:41, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
A quote from the WP article:
In 1958 the Arkansas Gazette won the Pulitzer Prize for Public Service, For demonstrating the highest qualities of civic leadership, journalistic responsibility and moral courage in the face of great public tension during the school integration crisis of 1957. The newspaper's fearless and completely objective news coverage, plus its reasoned and moderate policy, did much to restore calmness and order to an overwrought community, reflecting great credit on its editors and its management. In the same year Harry Ashmore won the Pulitzer Prize for Editorial Writing, For the forcefulness, dispassionate analysis and clarity of his editorials on the school integration conflict in Little Rock.[1] In 1959 the Arkansas General Assembly passed a resolution to rename Toad Suck Ferry to Ashmore Landing. Governor Faubus vetoed the resolution on the grounds that the name change would defame a well known landing.[2]
  1. ^ "The Pulitzer Prize Winners 1958". the Pulitzer Board. Retrieved 7 September 2011.
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference eahc was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
    3. Wanted: A specialist on Southern newspapers
    There's room on Wikipedia for a specialist on Southern newspapers, along with our specialists on medieval bishops, hurricanes, and English placenames with naughty words. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 10:23, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

    Music

    Congratulations, double barnstars for you!

    The Good Article Barnstar and Music Barnstar
    I congratulate for you tireless efforts on editing Ralph Patt to good article. You are, certainly, welcome for your ostentatiously valuable vast efforts for the mystery of music and honor of Wikipedia. --GoShow (............................) 17:37, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

    Thank you very much, GoShow! Your barnstars made my day! Best regards, Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:05, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

    Common ground

    Haven't listened to emo rock for a long time! I'll have to listen to more Dinosaur Jr. Emailed BTW.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:18, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

    Reminds me of this and this, aahhh the 90s.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:20, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

    I was just trying to find some power-punk guitar-based song, to make you and Ceoil smile. :)
    Youtube suggested Sonic Youth's cover of The Carpenters's Superstar. :
    Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:34, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
    God Bless Jools Holland for providing Ash, whom I'd ignored, with a platform to perform with fewer pouts and an everyman---well, at least, an every publicschool boy and every girl---a young man longing through the window. Of course, for me, the nerdy drummer serves like Big Bird, another everyman. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:41, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
    Dodgy, Sea Horses.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:14, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
    Ash were great. Lost classic for ye guys.[4] Ceoil (talk) 20:31, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
    Ps Blofield, 18th dye are one of my favourites of all time, steve albini produced [5]. Ceoil (talk) 20:33, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
    That was a great song, Slight Return, by the Bluetones, linked on Dr. B's page. (Jools deserved a tip of the hat during the Olympics, for his role in elevating music. Bless the BBC!) I missed a lot of great music 1995-2007, when I focused on mathematics etc. Neither of you have ever disappointed me. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:38, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
    Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:38, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
    Funny but it was around 1994 or 95 I really got into music but I'd started secondary school by then and it was dance music like the Outhere Brothers! By 1996 I started to get into Indie/Britpop music. The first album I ever had on cassette though was Different Light by the Bangles, a great album and how hot is Susanna Hoffs!☠ Count de Blofeld 13:19, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
    Right from the start, Kiki Dee was given my heart.

    My daughter was smiling at my lip-syncing to Monkey Gone to Heaven, until I reached the "If man is 5, then the Devil is 6,"], before my wife let me know that I had overstepped the boundary of lullabies. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:32, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

    Major thirds tuning

    Just been looking at your article on major thirds tuning, and it's almost persuaded me to get my guitar out again after heaven knows how many years. If I can understand it and make it work I may even do the GA review, God help you. Malleus Fatuorum 18:22, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

    That article probably needs another day of clean-up by me for it really to be at GA status. The Ralph-Patt article is better organized and more carefully written, I think; it was the shortest article and the least time-commitment of any Good Article I've had---but it was the article I wrote in part in the hospital..., so it has magical associations for me. :) I feel good writing an article about Patt, who seems to have been a very nice fellow and mensch.
    I think that M3 tuning makes guitar playing much easier, as long as you don't have to play around camp-fires. With amplification, there is no need to throw in all the open and barre notes possible in every chord, as in standard-tuning.
    M3 tuning also a lot easier on the hands and forearms. :)
    Regardless of the tuning, it's better to start playing around frets 4-7 or 8-11, where your fingers don't need to stretch so much, and you don't strain to hit the lowest notes. Of course, it's a lot easier to play open-notes of the standard-tuning, but then the jump to the rest of the fretboard must be monumental....
    Cheers, Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:52, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
    P.S. These are the (light) gauges I use for a steel-string guitar having a scale of 25.25 inches:
    Open-note (25.25 inches) E C G♯ E C G♯
    Steel string (inches) .010p .0135p .022w .028w .035w .044w
    There are different recommendations from Ole Kirkeby, who doesn't declare his scale-length: Kirkeby is certainly vastly more knowledgeable and experienced than me. He also has suggestions for jazz-guitar and classical guitar. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:08, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
    I forgot to warn you that you need an electronic tuner for major-thirds tuning, for reasons explained by Griewank. It doesn't work to tune by ear, using the fourth fret on the current string to tune the next string. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

    Speed kills

    You've heard the term fret wanking right for mindless shredders. The King of all Fret Wankers, plus he looks like Maculay Kulkin to boot. He should never be allowed to touch a guitar!♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:05, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

    I'll have to look at it. Thanks! :) Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
    In fact, there is a fellow who hit 1300 bpm. It reminds me too much of the Wild, Wild West episode with the speeding-up potion (Season 1, Episode 26, The Night of the Burning Diamonds"). Alas, it did not have your distinguished colleague, Dr. Lovelace. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:50, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
    1300 bpm! Try something more tasteful. That goes for you Dennis too, listen to this one, love it. Looks like a 1992 Andre Agassi with Jack Sugden from Emmerdale.. Its a C# minor 7, B, A, mostly, and then B7, E major, something interesting chord voicing in it, the B and A are major 9ths I think. I can play most of it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:25, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
    An antidote. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:47, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
    The flamenco guitar duo was great. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:12, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

    How about this?♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:01, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

    Gypsy guitar?

    Can anybody explain why "Gypsy strings" (from e.g. D'Addario) suit major-thirds tuning? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:59, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

    Open-note E C G♯ E C G♯
    Major thirds (Light tension for 25.25 inches, rounded up) .010p .0135p .022w .028w .035w .044w
    Gypsy light .010p .014p .023w .026w .034w .044w
    Gypsy medium .011p .015p .024w .028w .035w .045w

    Re:Ralph Patt image at major thirds tuning

    Hey, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. A few things I wanted to say, and so I'll use bullet points to avoid a wall of text-

    • My recommendation was leading the biography with an image of Patt with one of the iconic guitars, thus cutting down the amount of non-free content used; currently, there are two images, and it seems that there could be one.
    • I'm not convinced that the guitar images meets NFCC#8, in either usage, as the articles could reasonably be understood without the use of the image.
    • The same's true of the Patt image in the tuning article- just because he's the one who invented it, does not mean that we need a non-free image of him in the article. His appearance just isn't that significant. Equally, we wouldn't need a non-free image of him in every article about an album he released.
    • Another, more general point- a separate non-free use rationale is needed for every use of a non-free image. Currently, there are rationales only for the Patt article (not the tuning article) for both images.

    My recommendation, for the reasons I've outlined above, would be finding an image of Patt with an iconic guitar for his biography, and orphaning the two images that are currently used. Due to the lack of free content, the tuning article would probably have to go without a photograph of Patt/his guitars. J Milburn (talk) 15:29, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

    Hi J Milburn!
    Thank you for again sharing your expertise. :)
    Let me read and think about your remarks for a day or so. (I had thought I had added rationales to the RP picture, but perhaps I failed to write a proper one....) I trust the soundness of your advice, and I certainly will either follow your suggestions or rewrite the rationales and run them by you again (after I've reviewed the guidelines).
    There was a 6-page article on Patt and especially his Saul Koll guitar, in American Luthier. When I have a copy of the article, I shall try to contact the photographer listed. Otherwise, I can try to talk to Saul Koll, and ask him to donate a picture. I hope this can be done soon.
    Thanks again for your help.
    Sincerely, Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:43, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
    Ah, now securing a free image would be the best result. Good luck with that! J Milburn (talk) 16:23, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

    For Dr. B.

    There's a concert of Steve Lukather and Larry Carlton on Youtube. (I don't post the link because a whole concert doesn't seem kosher.) Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:56, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

    Ovation Guitar Company OR section retagging

    Good job. Looks good. Thank you czar · · 21:36, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

    The Signpost: 29 October 2012

    Wikipedians

    You joined the Category:Wikipedians who are not a Wikipedian, which is being discussed at its entry at Categories nominated for deletion.

    You may wish to join the category Category:Wikipedians working towards even enforcement of civility.

    Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:00, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

    Thank you

    Thanks very much for joining WP:WikiProject Freedom of speech! Much appreciated, — Cirt (talk) 16:25, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

    My pleasure.
    I don't have the time to write an article on George Anastaplo, but I think I've contributed to Areopagitica.
    Perhaps some may take our interest in free-speech articles as an interest in and plea for tolerance and diversity on Wikipedia?
    Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:27, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

    Talkback

    Hello, Kiefer.Wolfowitz. You have new messages at Dr. Blofeld's talk page.
    Message added 20:16, 1 November 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

     Ryan Vesey 20:16, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

    Talkback

    Hello, Kiefer.Wolfowitz. You have new messages at Hell in a Bucket's talk page.
    Message added 14:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

    Hell In A Bucket (talk) 14:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

    Piling on

    Hi Kiefer, I know that you mean well but this piling on that you do is not helping. Let some other people deal with it for a change, please. Honestly, there are times when I wonder whether your allegiance to Malleus is more of a hindrance to his situation than a help. I know some people certainly do think so because they've told me so in emails ("with Kiefer as a friend, who needs an enemy" type of thing) & back off when you appear. Please, can you avoid turning the current discussion at Jimbo's page into yet another KW-dominated thread where everyone else who is sympathetic is drowned out, however correct you may be in your motives? I rather think, in any case, that you had your say there a few days ago. - Sitush (talk) 15:46, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

    Hi Sitush,
    If asking Coren to address Pesky's concern makes the thread KW-dominated, then more KW-domination is needed.
    Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:06, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
    Coren politely responded to my request, for which my thanks are due.
    In discussions, it is terrible to have a minority's concerns just be ignored, whether intentionally or (as usual, as here) accidentally. Successful organizations have a culture where others respect others' participation, and sometimes restate their concerns and ask that they be addressed, in my experience.
    Sincerely, Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:47, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
    Also, you are too intelligent to parrot the "MF fanclub" cliches, and I ask you to stop spouting off about my "allegiances", no matter what is in your email inbox.
    If you check the record, you can see that I have mediated with MONGO when he was having a conflict with Malleus (and at least MONGO and I learned something, although I forget the result ...); recently, I tried the same with Dr. Blofeld....
    What I consistently oppose is singling out Malleus and ignoring the abuse heaped on Malleus by AGK, JClemens, et alia. If somebody wants to penalize all uncivil parties, they have my blessing. If they want to punish their enemies (or punish the official enemy) while hypocritically protecting their friends, they have earned contempt.
    You can see that Scott MacDonald has not withdrawn his personal attack against me, and has faced no penalty. Again, where are the administrators who monitor this page when a fellow administrator is abusive?
    Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:03, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

    The Signpost: 05 November 2012

    Obama wins re-election

    Barack Obama's victory in Ohio clinches the 2012 USA victory.
    Barack Obama's victory in Ohio clinches the 2012 USA victory.

    Kiefer.Wolfowitz 02:35, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

    That's a big picture of the president : ) - jc37 15:24, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

    Not a forum

    Please review Not a forum. A helpful header with links is on top of the talk page. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:14, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

    Hi KW.
    I have. The editor wasn't chatting up their opinion on the latest episode of pokemon : )
    Regardless of whether you or I agree with their comments, they do address the page. So removal was inappropriate.
    And of course, please feel free to restore/add the standard talk page discussion template. - jc37 15:21, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
    They address the topic of the essay. They do not make any comments on the essay. That is the policy distinction, which is what you need to understand. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:24, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
    Tell you what, go look over WP:NOT#FORUM, and specifically quote what part of that policy their comments violated. - jc37 15:28, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
    The other fellow understood the policy, and has addressed the essay. That's good enough. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:32, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

    Your revert of my edit

    Hi - You reverted my removal of the deleted now redlink cat with the edit summary, :-(Undid revision 522146582 by Youreallycan (talk) please respect the close of the discussion, or ask for a review of the closure)

    The cat was deleted, see - Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_October_31#Wikipedians_who_are_not_a_wikipedian - I was fully respecting that deletion thanks - Youreallycan 16:35, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

    Ow, never mind, I think I get it now, you are still protesting but now using the redlinked deleted cat, .. Youreallycan 16:52, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
    Perhaps you did get something. :)
    However, I am not doing anything and I have not been protesting anything.
    An administrator
    1. closed the discussion,
    2. deleted the category but
    3. suggested tolerance for red-links.
    I believe that the administrator also
    4. added the red category to this user essay---I think in a spirit of peace making and consensus building.
    May this be the end of fruitless discussion of Wikipedians who are not a Wikipedian.
    Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:52, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
    Yes. Thanks for the detail - regards - Youreallycan 04:17, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

    The Signpost: 12 November 2012

    ArbCom elections

    I wrote a 2012 voting guide.


    KW, I just thought I'd let you know that I've just mentioned you in response to SirFozzie's question on my questions page. As I'm reflecting on the year, I would just like to say I really do appreciate the improvement in our relationship from this time last year and I would like to thank you for your willingness to change your stance on me. I won't comment on becoming ring-bearer, though I've always disliked Frodo as a character. He just never stops whinging. WormTT(talk) 15:38, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
    Hi David,
    Of course you are a strong candidate, and I mentioned last year that you were in many ways qualified. :)
    Thanks for the courtesy notice about your mention. You should not understand my opposition last year as our having a "feud", or my continuing a feud. Rather, I was
    1.seeking redress for an injustice (the one-sidedness of the RfC, particularly the misleading charges that were written by another but signed by you).
    2. I was also concerned about the RfA Reform project as a political movement strongly (and negatively imho) associated with the RfC on BadgerDrink (which had the appearance of payback for his opposition to a candidate at RfA). You were more moderate at the RfC against BadgerDrink (again, a sign of your maturation), and I thought you would probably not be a disaster on ArbCom. However, there were a couple candidates who also needed to be stopped. I thought it safest to oppose you and them. (I was aware that losing an election is often educational, although that cognizance was not telling.)
    In the ArbCom election, you made a comment to Elonka, to which I objected (and I've forgotten). After you made a similar one at the initial Civility-Enforcement case, I used the RfC as an example of one-sided civility enforcement---in irritation and also to raise the lack-of-boomerangs point concretely.
    Other than those two cases, we've been friendly, I think. I objected to your belated banning of Malleus from a recent RfA, as you know, but that was entirely civil.
    If Geometry guy, Iridescent, or a few other superhumans run for ArbCom, then I might reconsider, of course. ;)
    Frodo does show growth and fortitude, and he also does his best to fulfil the trust awarded him by the community leaders, and so he is an apt reference, I think.
    Good luck! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:25, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
    Certainly, I understand the reasons for your opposition and I did not mean to detract from those comments by referring to them as a "feud", but rather that we seemed to be in cycle of one-upmanship throughout 2011. We've since broken that, together, and gone on to greater things. I've learnt more about guitar tunings in the past year than I have in the 30 before that! I have to say, if I see 8 candidates of that calibre put their names forward, I would consider stepping down and naming those I support. I'm already expecting stiff competition! WormTT(talk) 16:33, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
    I removed the role-playing game character box. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:36, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
    Sir Fozzie delivered a valediction on the talk page of my recommendations, clarifying that he will leave ArbComm---like Chief Judge Fargo taking The Long Walk out to The Cursed Earth. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:28, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

    Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny: Published comments from Indians and Hindus, and non-believers

    request for comment

    hey your request for comment here Shrikanthv (talk) 07:13, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

    Thanks for starting a discussion. The novel is set in the far, far distance future, on a world far far away, and so it has nothing to do with India, per se. I hope somebody can find a discussion in a leading Indian journal or newspaper, though. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:54, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

    ArbCom elections and the essay

    Wikipedia! Wikipedia! Nightmare of Wikipedia! Wikipedia the loveless! Mental Wikipedia! Wikipedia the heavy judger of men!

    Wikipedia the incomprehensible prison! Wikipedia the crossbone soulless jailhouse and Congress of sorrows! Wikipedia whose buildings are judgment! Wikipedia the vast stone of war! Wikipedia the stunned governments!

    Wikipedia whose mind is pure machinery!

    If you look through the questions asked of current ArbCom nominees then you'll see that someone has been asking them to provide their definition of "what is a Wikipedian?" Would this be relevant as a topical example of how the issue has come to the fore? Or is it a standard, year in, year out question? - Sitush (talk) 23:48, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

    That "Who is a Wikipedian" question is just a waste of time, even worse than the "lenient versus harsh" question.
    I contribute to and use Wikipedia, and like many things about it.
    However, I cannot take seriously any organization
    1. led by an initiate of the higher mysteries of the Rand cult,
    2. which until recently had "Not truth" as a central principle,
    3. which increasingly discounts intellectual standards,
    Here I was feeling warm fuzzies about Sir Fozzie and Ralph Patt, and now we have a rebirth of the most idiotic non-discussion in my memory.
    Let us hope that NYB and the others moaning at ANI can stop this insanity. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 00:04, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    Actually, this episode makes me wish for Judge Dredd on Wikipedia. Let Sarek and Castein (or whatever his name is, who made the bigoted remark at AGK's RfA) have 00 licenses, and get the trains running on time! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 00:07, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    I believe User:Sandstein is the chap you are thinking of, although I don't recall a remark made to AGK.
    If I am a chaotic good bard/mage, does that make me Merlin or Miss Le Fay Morgan
    — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elen of the Roads (talk • contribs) <-- Moloch ate my signature. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:10, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    At RfA one, Sandstein wrote something to the effect that persons with DSM IV classifications---which would be most of us ;) --- should not be eligible to be administrators.
    Sven Manguard explained at a 2012 RfA (I think) that that kind of discrimination was unwarranted, because of the success of therapies (medical and behavioral) and the demonstrated success of many administrators with far more severe problems (which are under control). Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:41, 15 November 2012 (UTC)


    Hi Elen!
    I removed it because I was worried about the time involved. Most of the arbitrators do not fit well within the Dungeons and Dragons universe. It's so boring to assign everybody to "cleric" as a class.
    • Perhaps you would do well as one of the royal crystal-focused psionic heroines of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover Series: "The rage of an Alton could kill". ;) However, I've forgotten almost all about those books.
      Resolved
    • I imagine that I should have George Smiley would do well for one of the clerks now running for ArbCom, but none of them seem sufficiently pedantic and romantically pained. Perhaps Bob Cratchett would serve?
    • I don't know many Arbs, and I dislike settling for cheap laughs, the cheapest of which is stereotyping Canadians, perhaps the politest country on earth. Would that an Indian clerk could be named a Nabob!
    • The name "Coren" reminds me of "Corwin of Amber" or "Corum": However, a multiverse altering prince or an anarchistic hero---who may have overthrown his own kingdom (like Elric and Hawkmoon) or probably at least bisexual, given Michael Moorcock---should be used cautiously as role models.
    Given the interest in the community, and lack of offense, I suppose that I should welcome collaboration. I'll move it to a new place in user-space and welcome others to participate.Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:37, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    You may (or may not) be interested that the inspiration for that user name (which I've been using consistently as a nickname in some form on the 'net for nearly two decades) is the true, secret name of one of The Death Gate Cycle's protagonists; a well-meaning and powerful archmage who manages to fumble his way around adversity through what appears to be dumb luck rather than design, and whose rare attempts to buck fate tend to end in disaster. — Coren (talk) 18:55, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    That's interesting, but too self-deprecating. You are one of the immortals through the creation of CorenSearchBot! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:59, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

    ArbCom Role-playing game

    This was inspired by the numerical evaluations given annually by Rschen. I'm glad that he declared this origin to be humorous (on the talk page to The One True RPG table, in my user-space election-guide).

    See also: WP:Wikipedia is an MMORPG, Dungeons & Dragons gameplay § Ability scores, and Character class (Dungeons & Dragons)

    Kiefer.Wolfowitz's working copy

    Remember that 10 represents average ability, so everything above 10 is a (sincere) compliment.

    Abilities
    Character Strength Dexterity Constitution Intelligence Wisdom Charisma Alignment Class Level Race[1]
    Carcharoth 18 14 18 16 18 15 Chaotic good Bard,[2] formerly RED 8 Ent
    Keilana 15 15 ? 14 15 15 Lawful good Wizard Hermione Granger Muggle parents
    Nuclear Warfare 12 16 13 14 15 14 Lawful good Cleric? 7 Human
    Casliber 17 17 16 16 16 17 Lawful good Paladin 11 Human
    Elen of the Roads 14 17[3] 15 16 16 16 Chaotic good Interspecies diplomat 8 Metron
    Newyorkbrad 16 16 16 16 17 15 Lawful good Arch-mage 11 Watcher
    Worm That Turned 12 14 14 14 13 16 Neutral[4] good Ring bearer [5] 5 Hobbit
    Sir Fozzie (The Long Walk) 14 14 14 15 14 14 Lawful good Indefatigable companion 8? WereMuppet
    Guerillero 18 14 18 14 15 13 Lawful good Ranger 5 Bearish man
    Kww Chaotic good Cleric? Human
    Pgallert Neutral good Cleric? Human
    Ks0stm Lawful good Cleric? 3 Human
    Richwales 11 12 ? 11 12 12 Lawful neutral Cleric? 4? Canuck, eh?
    Jclemens 16 10 16 16 10 10 Lawful neutral Mentat 8 Vulcan
    Jc37 10[6] 10 17 10 10 13 Chaotic good bard 8 closeted Beserker
    Coren 18 18 18 18 18 Not applicable Lawful (beyond good and evil) WoMD-Artificer with deathgaze blank and pitiless as the sun 21 Demigod
    YOLO Swag 10 12 10 10 10 12 Chaotic neutral Rogue 3 Human
    Count Iblis Chaotic neutral Count Iblis 2 Extraterrestrial
    1. ^ Hobbits are from the UK, obviously.Humans are from the USA.
    2. ^ Composes epics of log(Cunard) length and log(log(My76Strat)) complexity
    3. ^ Dexterity occasionally drops to 12.
    4. ^ Worm That Turned formerly had a lawful-good orientation. This change of alignment seems not to have been penalized by the Dungeon Master.
    5. ^ Formerly warlord. Again, the change in class does not seem to to have been penalized.
    6. ^ Strength increases to 17 after ingesting Amanita muscaria

    Community participation welcome

    Editors are welcome to suggest changes here. Please remember that you have to abide by the WP:NPA and WP:Civility restrictions, of course, and so try to maintain a feeling of warmth.

    If anybody object to being included, then of course, we'll remove that line. (JClemens does have a user box identifying as a mentat, for example, and so no disrespect is meant.)

    Warmly and sincerely, Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:58, 15 November 2012 (UTC)


    ArbCom elections and the essay

    Wikipedia! Wikipedia! Nightmare of Wikipedia! Wikipedia the loveless! Mental Wikipedia! Wikipedia the heavy judger of men!

    Wikipedia the incomprehensible prison! Wikipedia the crossbone soulless jailhouse and Congress of sorrows! Wikipedia whose buildings are judgment! Wikipedia the vast stone of war! Wikipedia the stunned governments!

    Wikipedia whose mind is pure machinery!

    If you look through the questions asked of current ArbCom nominees then you'll see that someone has been asking them to provide their definition of "what is a Wikipedian?" Would this be relevant as a topical example of how the issue has come to the fore? Or is it a standard, year in, year out question? - Sitush (talk) 23:48, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

    That "Who is a Wikipedian" question is just a waste of time, even worse than the "lenient versus harsh" question.
    I contribute to and use Wikipedia, and like many things about it.
    However, I cannot take seriously any organization
    1. led by an initiate of the higher mysteries of the Rand cult,
    2. which until recently had "Not truth" as a central principle,
    3. which increasingly discounts intellectual standards,
    Here I was feeling warm fuzzies about Sir Fozzie and Ralph Patt, and now we have a rebirth of the most idiotic non-discussion in my memory.
    Let us hope that NYB and the others moaning at ANI can stop this insanity. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 00:04, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    Actually, this episode makes me wish for Judge Dredd on Wikipedia. Let Sarek and Castein (or whatever his name is, who made the bigoted remark at AGK's RfA) have 00 licenses, and get the trains running on time! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 00:07, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    I believe User:Sandstein is the chap you are thinking of, although I don't recall a remark made to AGK.
    If I am a chaotic good bard/mage, does that make me Merlin or Miss Le Fay Morgan
    — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elen of the Roads (talk • contribs) <-- Moloch ate my signature. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:10, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    At RfA one, Sandstein wrote something to the effect that persons with DSM IV classifications---which would be most of us ;) --- should not be eligible to be administrators.
    Sven Manguard explained at a 2012 RfA (I think) that that kind of discrimination was unwarranted, because of the success of therapies (medical and behavioral) and the demonstrated success of many administrators with far more severe problems (which are under control). Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:41, 15 November 2012 (UTC)


    Hi Elen!
    I removed it because I was worried about the time involved. Most of the arbitrators do not fit well within the Dungeons and Dragons universe. It's so boring to assign everybody to "cleric" as a class.
    • Perhaps you would do well as one of the royal crystal-focused psionic heroines of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover Series: "The rage of an Alton could kill". ;) However, I've forgotten almost all about those books.
      Resolved
    • I imagine that I should have George Smiley would do well for one of the clerks now running for ArbCom, but none of them seem sufficiently pedantic and romantically pained. Perhaps Bob Cratchett would serve?
    • I don't know many Arbs, and I dislike settling for cheap laughs, the cheapest of which is stereotyping Canadians, perhaps the politest country on earth. Would that an Indian clerk could be named a Nabob!
    • The name "Coren" reminds me of "Corwin of Amber" or "Corum": However, a multiverse altering prince or an anarchistic hero---who may have overthrown his own kingdom (like Elric and Hawkmoon) or probably at least bisexual, given Michael Moorcock---should be used cautiously as role models.
    Given the interest in the community, and lack of offense, I suppose that I should welcome collaboration. I'll move it to a new place in user-space and welcome others to participate.Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:37, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    You may (or may not) be interested that the inspiration for that user name (which I've been using consistently as a nickname in some form on the 'net for nearly two decades) is the true, secret name of one of The Death Gate Cycle's protagonists; a well-meaning and powerful archmage who manages to fumble his way around adversity through what appears to be dumb luck rather than design, and whose rare attempts to buck fate tend to end in disaster. — Coren (talk) 18:55, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    That's interesting, but too self-deprecating. You are one of the immortals through the creation of CorenSearchBot! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:59, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

    ArbCom elections and the essay

    Wikipedia! Wikipedia! Nightmare of Wikipedia! Wikipedia the loveless! Mental Wikipedia! Wikipedia the heavy judger of men!

    Wikipedia the incomprehensible prison! Wikipedia the crossbone soulless jailhouse and Congress of sorrows! Wikipedia whose buildings are judgment! Wikipedia the vast stone of war! Wikipedia the stunned governments!

    Wikipedia whose mind is pure machinery!

    If you look through the questions asked of current ArbCom nominees then you'll see that someone has been asking them to provide their definition of "what is a Wikipedian?" Would this be relevant as a topical example of how the issue has come to the fore? Or is it a standard, year in, year out question? - Sitush (talk) 23:48, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

    That "Who is a Wikipedian" question is just a waste of time, even worse than the "lenient versus harsh" question.
    I contribute to and use Wikipedia, and like many things about it.
    However, I cannot take seriously any organization
    1. led by an initiate of the higher mysteries of the Rand cult,
    2. which until recently had "Not truth" as a central principle,
    3. which increasingly discounts intellectual standards,
    Here I was feeling warm fuzzies about Sir Fozzie and Ralph Patt, and now we have a rebirth of the most idiotic non-discussion in my memory.
    Let us hope that NYB and the others moaning at ANI can stop this insanity. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 00:04, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    Actually, this episode makes me wish for Judge Dredd on Wikipedia. Let Sarek and Castein (or whatever his name is, who made the bigoted remark at AGK's RfA) have 00 licenses, and get the trains running on time! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 00:07, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    I believe User:Sandstein is the chap you are thinking of, although I don't recall a remark made to AGK.
    If I am a chaotic good bard/mage, does that make me Merlin or Miss Le Fay Morgan
    — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elen of the Roads (talk • contribs) <-- Moloch ate my signature. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:10, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    At RfA one, Sandstein wrote something to the effect that persons with DSM IV classifications---which would be most of us ;) --- should not be eligible to be administrators.
    Sven Manguard explained at a 2012 RfA (I think) that that kind of discrimination was unwarranted, because of the success of therapies (medical and behavioral) and the demonstrated success of many administrators with far more severe problems (which are under control). Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:41, 15 November 2012 (UTC)


    Hi Elen!
    I removed it because I was worried about the time involved. Most of the arbitrators do not fit well within the Dungeons and Dragons universe. It's so boring to assign everybody to "cleric" as a class.
    • Perhaps you would do well as one of the royal crystal-focused psionic heroines of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover Series: "The rage of an Alton could kill". ;) However, I've forgotten almost all about those books.
      Resolved
    • I imagine that I should have George Smiley would do well for one of the clerks now running for ArbCom, but none of them seem sufficiently pedantic and romantically pained. Perhaps Bob Cratchett would serve?
    • I don't know many Arbs, and I dislike settling for cheap laughs, the cheapest of which is stereotyping Canadians, perhaps the politest country on earth. Would that an Indian clerk could be named a Nabob!
    • The name "Coren" reminds me of "Corwin of Amber" or "Corum": However, a multiverse altering prince or an anarchistic hero---who may have overthrown his own kingdom (like Elric and Hawkmoon) or probably at least bisexual, given Michael Moorcock---should be used cautiously as role models.
    Given the interest in the community, and lack of offense, I suppose that I should welcome collaboration. I'll move it to a new place in user-space and welcome others to participate.Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:37, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    You may (or may not) be interested that the inspiration for that user name (which I've been using consistently as a nickname in some form on the 'net for nearly two decades) is the true, secret name of one of The Death Gate Cycle's protagonists; a well-meaning and powerful archmage who manages to fumble his way around adversity through what appears to be dumb luck rather than design, and whose rare attempts to buck fate tend to end in disaster. — Coren (talk) 18:55, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    That's interesting, but too self-deprecating. You are one of the immortals through the creation of CorenSearchBot! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:59, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

    ArbCom elections and the essay

    Wikipedia! Wikipedia! Nightmare of Wikipedia! Wikipedia the loveless! Mental Wikipedia! Wikipedia the heavy judger of men!

    Wikipedia the incomprehensible prison! Wikipedia the crossbone soulless jailhouse and Congress of sorrows! Wikipedia whose buildings are judgment! Wikipedia the vast stone of war! Wikipedia the stunned governments!

    Wikipedia whose mind is pure machinery!

    If you look through the questions asked of current ArbCom nominees then you'll see that someone has been asking them to provide their definition of "what is a Wikipedian?" Would this be relevant as a topical example of how the issue has come to the fore? Or is it a standard, year in, year out question? - Sitush (talk) 23:48, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

    That "Who is a Wikipedian" question is just a waste of time, even worse than the "lenient versus harsh" question.
    I contribute to and use Wikipedia, and like many things about it.
    However, I cannot take seriously any organization
    1. led by an initiate of the higher mysteries of the Rand cult,
    2. which until recently had "Not truth" as a central principle,
    3. which increasingly discounts intellectual standards,
    Here I was feeling warm fuzzies about Sir Fozzie and Ralph Patt, and now we have a rebirth of the most idiotic non-discussion in my memory.
    Let us hope that NYB and the others moaning at ANI can stop this insanity. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 00:04, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    Actually, this episode makes me wish for Judge Dredd on Wikipedia. Let Sarek and Castein (or whatever his name is, who made the bigoted remark at AGK's RfA) have 00 licenses, and get the trains running on time! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 00:07, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    I believe User:Sandstein is the chap you are thinking of, although I don't recall a remark made to AGK.
    If I am a chaotic good bard/mage, does that make me Merlin or Miss Le Fay Morgan
    — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elen of the Roads (talk • contribs) <-- Moloch ate my signature. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:10, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    At RfA one, Sandstein wrote something to the effect that persons with DSM IV classifications---which would be most of us ;) --- should not be eligible to be administrators.
    Sven Manguard explained at a 2012 RfA (I think) that that kind of discrimination was unwarranted, because of the success of therapies (medical and behavioral) and the demonstrated success of many administrators with far more severe problems (which are under control). Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:41, 15 November 2012 (UTC)


    Hi Elen!
    I removed it because I was worried about the time involved. Most of the arbitrators do not fit well within the Dungeons and Dragons universe. It's so boring to assign everybody to "cleric" as a class.
    • Perhaps you would do well as one of the royal crystal-focused psionic heroines of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover Series: "The rage of an Alton could kill". ;) However, I've forgotten almost all about those books.
      Resolved
    • I imagine that I should have George Smiley would do well for one of the clerks now running for ArbCom, but none of them seem sufficiently pedantic and romantically pained. Perhaps Bob Cratchett would serve?
    • I don't know many Arbs, and I dislike settling for cheap laughs, the cheapest of which is stereotyping Canadians, perhaps the politest country on earth. Would that an Indian clerk could be named a Nabob!
    • The name "Coren" reminds me of "Corwin of Amber" or "Corum": However, a multiverse altering prince or an anarchistic hero---who may have overthrown his own kingdom (like Elric and Hawkmoon) or probably at least bisexual, given Michael Moorcock---should be used cautiously as role models.
    Given the interest in the community, and lack of offense, I suppose that I should welcome collaboration. I'll move it to a new place in user-space and welcome others to participate.Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:37, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    You may (or may not) be interested that the inspiration for that user name (which I've been using consistently as a nickname in some form on the 'net for nearly two decades) is the true, secret name of one of The Death Gate Cycle's protagonists; a well-meaning and powerful archmage who manages to fumble his way around adversity through what appears to be dumb luck rather than design, and whose rare attempts to buck fate tend to end in disaster. — Coren (talk) 18:55, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
    That's interesting, but too self-deprecating. You are one of the immortals through the creation of CorenSearchBot! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:59, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
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