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Hello "Lizard King" and welcome to Wikipedia. A few tips for you:

Please don't place that sketch at Cronus. If you would like to place a picture there, at least make it look more like a typical representation of him (i.e. a gray-haired human elderly male). The best solution, though, is probably to find a painting or some more direct source. Tuf-Kat 02:06, Jan 9, 2004 (UTC)

It is based on depictions of Cronus I have seen in Greek reliefs. He is not always depicted as a man with a beard. He is also depicted as a less human looking character with a cloak and a scathe. Sometimes he has a halo also but I left that out.

See Talk:Cronus Tuf-Kat 04:24, Jan 9, 2004 (UTC)

Leave the picture in. There is nothing wrong with it and you know it. If you feel that it is against your religious beliefs, too bad. This is a public encyclopedia and many people will appreciate the rendering. If you keep bothering me about it I will put it right back on top.

Please don't tell me what I know and what I don't. It has nothing whatsoever to do with my religious beliefs. I am agnostic, and could care less if Cronus exists and/or what he looks like. The fact that it is a public encyclopedia does not mean that there are no standards. Its location does not matter -- if it is inappropriate for the bottom, it is inappropriate for the top and vice versa. Tuf-Kat 04:24, Jan 9, 2004 (UTC)

Hate to butt in, but I kinda like it. Perhaps if we had this one along witha more typical representation? Either way, I say keep the sketch. It's nifty, and I have heard of Cronus represented in this manner. PMC 02:38, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Well, now that's a first. Thank you.

Regardless of whether it belongs on that article or not, why do you keep reverting it to the version with the gaping blank space that takes twice as long to load? - Hephaestos 08:39, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Looks better centered than way off in the margin.

Tuf-Kat asked for the views of others about the copyright statusx of the sketch of Cronus at Wikipedia talk:Copyrights, where you can see what I thought. Can you tell us more about the image, whether it is a drawing of an older work or an old drawing and what book or site it came from? I think it's probably OK but I can't be sure without knowing a bit more about the original work, whatever that was. The picture is fine in the Cronus article, the only concern is to know that it's not copyright infringement. Jamesday 11:00, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hi. Although I had to agree that the drawing at Cronus really didn't add anything to the article, you do have talent, and we do need some more pictures around here. Would you be willing to add some pictures to articles if people asked you for them? RickK 23:19, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Reply to Rick K.

1) Tuf-Kat has insulted me and my illustrations on many occasions and is going to try to raise an issue with anything I try to do simply based on spite. I don't know what that guy's problem is.

2) I don't see how an image rendered by someone who has been dead for a few thousand years could really prompt a copy right infringement problem. None of the sites I have seen that image in listed a source that I can recall.

3) Thank you for the compliment. And yes, I would be willing to add illustrations if asked.

Do not make edits along the lines of http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Bigfoot&diff=2142255&oldid=2142240 . If you cannot react as an adult to disagreements with your opinions, Wikipedia does not need you. Salsa Shark 02:33, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I have never insulted you, unless you are counting that I don't believe that you had ever seen an image of Cronus similar to the one you drew. The only "insult" of any of your images was calling your Bigfoot sketch "clunky" and "not very well-done". Please do not edit my comments, make outrageous innuendos about my sexual proclivities or make false claims about me.
Please do not make more than one user account. Are you User:Annek? He seems as interested in launching sexual slurs towards me as you... Tuf-Kat

Reply to Tuf-Kat: I DO NOT HAVE MORE THAN ONE USER ACCOUNT. THERE ARE MORE THAN ONE PERSON'S IN MY HOUSEHOLD THAT USE THE IP ADDRESS I ALSO USE. You are an annoying, ignorant, presumptuous and immature person who is likely to draw the retaliation of many people offended by your childish behavior.

Thank you for pointing out the existence of user Annek (who I can guarantee has a different IP address) as I will contact him or her and encourage him or her to continue in what ever he or she has done to irritate you. ( :

PS: I will do whatever the hell I please and you can't stop me, you pellow-biting imbecile.

Reply to Salsa Shark (AKA Tuf-Kat): Grow up, I am a hell of a lot more of an adult than you will ever be.

Lizard King...

LOVE and PEACE!

WhisperToMe 03:44, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Please review Wikipedia:Wikiquette and Wikipedia:No personal attacks. RickK 03:48, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Awfully hypocritical. This guy can attack me, but if I respond in kind you suddenly have a problem with it? Whatever.

I left an answer for you on my talk page. - Hephaestos 08:33, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Thank you.

Thanks for agreeing to consider producing images if asked - I'll leave it to Rick to point you inthe right direction for that - we have a page for requests but I don't recall where it is. On the picturs of animals, it's worth remembering that whoever took the photograph of the animal has copyright to the photograph, so gettingthe original photograph won't help unless the photographer has given permission or we're writing a news article or the image is fair use. What other sites do doesn't matter - many web sites use images they shouldn't use. We have a somewhat different problem. We're trying to produce a work which others can copy themselves, while knowing that they aren't infringing, so we have to be far more careful about copyrights than the typical web page and also to document everything possible, so we can prove something isn't infringement. It's a pain but it's necesary to achieve our reuse objective. On the insults side, the best you can do is stay cool yourself and let others be the ones being overly aggressive - it always looks better to be the calm one, even if it's not nice to be on the receiving end of uncomplimentary remarks. The hot reception will die down after a week or three, particularly if you slow things down by waiting a day or two between posts so others have a chance to intervene and add balance to a discussion. If you want a calmer or alternative view because you think you're being poorly treated somewhere, don't hesitate to ask me to have a look through a request on my talk page. I don't guarantee to agree with you but I do guarantee that I'll give my honest opinion if I think you're being treated too badly.:) Jamesday 11:22, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

  1. Welcome to Wikipedia!
  2. Be aware of our neutrality policy on controversies (see NPOV).
  3. Don't waste time making personal remarks; stick to making good articles.

Personal remarks like the following are out of place in this project:

  • you ... imbecile

If someone is going to insult my artwork I will take it personally and return the favor. It is HIGHLY hippocritical that you guys keep complaining in response that was merely IN KIND.

One thing I do know is that no amount of hard work gives someone the right to break the rules of a system others have to obey with impunity as this Tuf-Kat person seems to have managed to do. The guy has multiple user IDs, makes false accusations, insults people (even if implicitly), starts unproductive fights or verbal disputes deliberately and is over all a thoroughly loathesome and dishonest character.

It would be better to say something like:

  • Can't you see that X is Y; or,
  • Here is a reference which explains the matter differently. --Uncle Ed 16:26, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

If you cite where I broke a rule or insulted you personally, I will apologize. Tuf-Kat 19:28, Jan 13, 2004 (UTC)

  • 1) You said that my illustration was clunky and poorly done. That is an insult.
    • It is not a personal insult. We critique each other's work on Wikipedia. I am truly sorry if I offended you, but my goal was to explain why the image was inappropriate for Wikipedia. If I hadn't given a reason, my opposition would have been without cause.
  • 2) You accused me of having multiple IDs and of being another member who I have never even heard of.
    • I simply asked if you were Annek. That is not an accusation; it is a question. Thank you for taking the time to deny it. I also informed you that you may not have multiple IDs -- this was an explanation of Wikipedia policy due to suspicious actions on your part and the part of other users. I am sorry you interpreted it as an attack on your character.
  • 3) You accused me of lying about the Cronus character never having been portrayed as the illustration I made suggested. In fact, it has been but most of the sites who once offered the illustrations of Cronus that looked that way have taken them down and replaced them with images that look like the one that is up now. The best example is --http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Cronos.html

This site used to have an image of Cronus that I used to draw my own from. I simply left the halo out. Now it has an image of a bearded hooded figure. I don't know what they did with the other and most other sites that also had the same image have taken it down as well. Another user remembered seeing Cronus as I depicted him and you should have taken his word at face value. I have uploaded the image I am talking about under the file name Cronus-r.jpg. It is an oil painting.

Image:Cronus-r.jpg)

    • The image at the site above does not look like your sketch. The one you uploaded does. Thank you. Do you know who painted it, and when? In an encyclopedia, I do not take anything at face value without proof, from you or PMC or anyone else.
  • 4) You and Salsa-Shark appear to be one and the same. I really didn't care until you started accusing me of being other users. Don't you have the ability to check IP addresses? Only a few other people in my household use this computer and Wikipedia and none of them have ever used the names RickK and you were accusing me of being.
    • I do not have the ability to check IP addresses of logged in users (see Wikipedia:Administrators). You are entitled to your opinion that Salsa Shark and I are the same.
  • PS I have nothing against your lifestyle, but do not appreciate having my artwork cut down. Were our positions reversed I would simply have said that the drawing was not my personal taste, or even that a colored rendering would have been better or something. To go out of your way to cut down someone's art work in a public forum is simply low.
    • If you have nothing against my lifestyle, why did you call me a pillow-biter and edit my comments to make it look like I was sexually attracted to Bigfoot? I did not go out of my way to cut down anything -- the sketch was what was being discussed. Sometimes, Wikipedians are critical of each other's work. This is acceptable and desirable given that our goal is to create a useful resource. Please note that I also said I liked the original Cronus image and thought it was well-done, though not of encyclopedic value. If you do not want people critiquing your work, I suggest you start your own webpage, which can even be based on Wikipedia content (see Wikipedia:Copyrights).

I am willing to work with you in the future, but you must be willing to accept that we can and will disagree and that I reserve the right to tell you that some image or text is not appropriate for the Wikipedia, and why (though I do not generally have the right to delete your contributions unilaterally). This can be insulting -- my own work has received sometimes very blistering attacks (see Talk:Music of Italy, for example, for a critique of an article I wrote) but I do not generally respond to unproductive comments except with more productive ones. By contributing to Wikipedia, you are agreeing that your work may be deleted, changed or added-to by the consensus of the community, as needed to produce a valuable, free encyclopedia. For example, the images you have uploaded can be changed and placed on a t-shirt and sold, with none of the money from sales reaching you or Wikipedia. Any changes you make to any article will appear on numerous ad-heavy for-profit sites that use Wikipedia for content. I sincerely hope that you stay and make productive edits, especially uploading sketches of subjects that need them. Tuf-Kat

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