User talk:Mattisse/Archive 11

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

(User talk:Mattisse/Archive_10) - (User talk:Mattisse/Archive_12)

If it is just the last edit then I'll save the paragraph

I'll save the last edit about horizontal treatment - the whole paragraph and then reinsert it - is that the only one? --Mattisse 23:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I think so.Dineshkannambadi 23

50, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Temple complex, Pillars, MantapaDineshkannambadi 23:57, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Mattisse, never mind. When I see the diff I see too many changes in the "your text version". I shall redo all my work just to make sure I did not do something wrong.Dineshkannambadi 00:00, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I did not save my edits. I will restart my edits now. I will let you know when I am done..Dineshkannambadi 00:01, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I Put it back.Dineshkannambadi 00:56, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

are the edits ok now. Sometimes I make mistakes in editing while attening to my kids at the same time.Dineshkannambadi 01:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

No problem. We all have bad days.Dineshkannambadi 15:19, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Your edits look fine.Dineshkannambadi 18:44, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Devotional Cult

Hi Mattisse, the 'Devotional cult' article you recently created looks to me to be very similar in scope to Bhakti movement (whose title I have to admit I much prefer). What would you think of merging the two into a History of Bhakti or similar? Best Wishes, Gouranga(UK) 22:46, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I've got not plans on merging them, especially if you're in the process of building the cult article up. Would Devotional traditions be no good either? Is it just within Hinduism or will it be looking at the early years of Christian, Islamic and Jewish devotional as well? I'm just thinking of what would designate the article as within Hindusim specifically from the title? Will leave you alone now ;-) All the best, Gouranga(UK) 23:25, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

1) "It is unfortunate that one specific cult has appropriated the term so that none of the others can use it."

2) "And I won't even mention the cult you were concerned about, because I'm talking broadly over thousands of years"

Hello Mattisse - I'm a bit lost now - in the above quotations are you referring to 'Bhakti movements' as in Shaivism and Vaishnavism? I always assumed Bhakti was broadly used as a universal term meaning 'devotion' - who appropriated it? Hindu devotional sects or Hindu devotional cults sound more specific - I was more worried initially incase you hadn't spotted the Bhakti movements article and might of duplicated some of the content (even if that article is in need of a clean-up). Good luck with the new article :-) Best Wishes, Gouranga(UK) 17:44, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Bhakti meaning 'Bhakti only in the monotheistic sense', now I can see where this could cause upset if used in another way. Bhakti as a word, is at least as old as the Bhagavad Gita, but I'm assuming it's usage will have been more popular in some areas than in others. Ys, Gouranga(UK) 18:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Yaksha

Yaksha. I have not read about this in Hoysala architecture anywhere. Its better not to use this. We dont want to add stuff that could later be questioned. Yaksha's and Yakshi's are more in Buddhist and Jain sculptures. Also, the statement "so temple architecture is designed to move the devotee from outside to the (garbhagriha) through ambulatory passageways for circumambulation" is probably not correct w.r.t Hoysala architecture. The circumabulation is generally around the shrine (in non-Hoysala temples) and on the Jagati going around the temple complex in Hoysala temples.Dineshkannambadi 23:06, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I changed Yaksha's to Kirthimukhas (roughly equivalent- meaning demon faces which is common in Hoysala temples). So you gave me an idea there. I retained the abmulatory passage ways statement as it is a general statement for Hindu temples. After a few lines we have explained that the Hoysala architecture does not provide that feature and hence the presence of jagati.Dineshkannambadi 23:41, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I am gald you are enjoying it. yes religion has often been politicised and propagated to every possible media.Dineshkannambadi 00:24, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

we got a big support for Hoysala architecture. You have made many many many contributions here.thanksDineshkannambadi 18:38, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

The support came from user:Nichalp. He did not give reasons, but he is well known for many FA himself.Dineshkannambadi 18:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Western Chalukya at full spead. I have been working on Rashtrakuta in the background.Dineshkannambadi 18:58, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Though we dont have images from the four most important temples mentioned in the lead section of Western Chalukya, we have enough images to make the article look good and most importantly, the existing images are from well known Western Chalukya temples. I will visit these 4 temples (along with a dozen more) this summer and create pages for them also and follow it up with Western Chalukya architecture.Dineshkannambadi 19:03, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Its not done untill it gets the FA status.Other reviewers may have other requirements.Dineshkannambadi 19:56, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

we should create stubs for Yali, Makaratorana, and Kirthimukha. I have images for all three. This can happen in the background.Dineshkannambadi 20:00, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

What are these? Yali has a big disambig page. Do you mean Makaratorana (mythic beast)? Is Kirthimukha a diety? --Mattisse 20:16, 25 February 2007 (UTC) Reply-->Makaratorana is a mythic beast but only depicted on a overhead lintel.There is one commneted out image in the Hoysala Empire page for this.Dineshkannambadi 20:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC) Yali (Hindu Mythology)? --Mattisse 20:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC) Reply-->yes. But may not be totally accurate as it says it became popular from 16th century. It has been used profusely in Hoysala art earlier. Also, Kirthimukha is not exactly a deity but more like a Gothic Gargoyle (hope I spelt it right). I have shown the Kirthimukha at the bottom of the "Hoy.. arch.." page.Dineshkannambadi 20:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

another link. Perhaps better to spell it Kirtimukha or have a redirect to Kirthimukha.

[1]Dineshkannambadi 21:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

I will look for it.Dineshkannambadi 21:33, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

It already existed at the bottom of the Hoy arch page. (the one before the last). In fact I may have a real close up also.Dineshkannambadi 00:25, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I have added the Yali image to the page. Take a look. Even the image in the Vijayanagara Empire page in the architecture section would do actually.Dineshkannambadi 00:29, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

In fact the kings who really popularised and used extensively the Kirthimukha were the Western Chalukyas. They will get a visit from me soon.Dineshkannambadi 00:31, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at the Western Chalukyas page under "society". I have added a Kirtimukha image.Dineshkannambadi 00:43, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I have many images showing the lions/horses/elephants etc but this one at the bottom of the hoy..arch.. page shows all the 6 mouldings we have described in the article and the wall images of the deities. The image you put in my talk page is good but does not show all these details. So for lack of space I did not use it. Also there seems to be some sculptural damage in the image you showed me.Dineshkannambadi 01:12, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I have added your favourite image. How can it hurt to have one more?. If you feel it is not in the correct place, feel free to place it elsewhere.Dineshkannambadi 01:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your intellectual curiocity. However, you may want to call it devotional sects because "cult" in todays atmosphere could be construed as something "primitive" or even worse. It does not bother me, I am just worried about the response you may get from others.Dineshkannambadi 00:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Can you look at the comment left by user: Mcginnly in the Hoy.. arc.. FAC discussion page?

He has given conditional support and is not satisfied by the header called "addendum". Perhaps we should call both the subsections as "Research" since modern research has thrown light on the architectural styles inherited from previous kingdoms, Hoysala artists who worked on the temples etc. He has not indicated what it should be called though.Dineshkannambadi 01:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Mattisse, I want to nominate Amoghavarsha for DYK (did you know). Please find time to do a copy edit on this article (not necessarily today). It is a new topic and has been edited significantly by me in the last 5 days (important requirements for DYK).Dineshkannambadi 15:23, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The fact he abdicated the throne.I will provide citation.Dineshkannambadi 21:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I see a lot of moving around of blocks in Hoy.. arc... was this just movement of blocks to correct locations?Dineshkannambadi 21:22, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I will go thru it once more tonight just to make sure. This time like a reviewer.Dineshkannambadi 21:35, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I will look into that. I will work on the Mantapa section first tonight.Dineshkannambadi 22:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead and put the image you mentioned where you think it should be. I have cleaned up the different sections. Take a look. The temple complex section unfortunately does not mention Vimana or pillars anywhere, may be a onle line mention should be made. But this may be ok. Also something needs to be done to the images at the very bottom. They seem to be scattered everywhere, or is just my browser resolution?Dineshkannambadi 23:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

why are the two bottom images in "centre" location?does it help variety of browswr resolutions?Dineshkannambadi 00:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

good you moved the image up. The emblem was not meant to be there. I will replace the emblem with an image of a temple without jagati showing the elephant balustrades. (the very temple I have described above)Dineshkannambadi 01:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

actually, we are not supposed to change image size in FA as it may appear distorted on different screens.Dineshkannambadi 01:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

The size should not be specified. meaning natural size. The image you moved to the top essentially shows the Vimana (minus the partially visible jagati)Dineshkannambadi 02:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

when this article becomes FA, could you please remove the paragraphs of text that currently reside in the article in "commented out" state. Just making sure that someone does not come along in the futuer and unknowingly or knowingly removes the comments.Vandalism comes in different shapes and forms, right?Dineshkannambadi 02:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I will keep that in mind. I did not realise I had put my last message on my own talk page.Dineshkannambadi 02:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there is Amgohavarsha II and III from the same dynasty.Dineshkannambadi 16:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

But we can maintain him as Amoghavarsha as he is the most famous of all. The other two are hardly known. What do you think.Dineshkannambadi 16:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

It was not uncommon for queens to accompany the King on expeditions.Dineshkannambadi 16:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I have left a message for user:KNM about the name thing. This article has been accepted for DYK, so we dont want to do something in haste that can hold it up. May be inside the article we can say "Amoghavarsha, also known as Amoghavarsha I..."Dineshkannambadi 17:03, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

He was not crowned as Amoghavarsha I, this is a modern designation I believe. I will look more carefully into the article later tonight.Dineshkannambadi 17:06, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Amoghavarsha I is fine.Dineshkannambadi 22:50, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Its two words (Sthamba means pillar, Buttalika probably maiden)Dineshkannambadi 00:36, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Amoghavarsha-->please take one last look when you have time. I added some citations and words.I am glad you did not take the vandalism by the anon to heart.Dineshkannambadi 00:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Please Check your email.Dineshkannambadi 01:25, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

what I meant is, generally clarifications of a religious nature are contentious. So I was trying to avoid edit wars with contentious editors later on. I have faith in your edits.Dineshkannambadi 02:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

good thing about architecture articles is it is less likely to be vandalised. Vandals vandalise what they understand and this topic may go right over their heads.Dineshkannambadi 03:09, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Jagannath Temple (Puri)

Hello Mattisse - if you have a spare moment would you mind taking a look at recent edits to this article (Jagannath Temple (Puri))? I remember you working on it quite a lot in the past. In terms of recent edits the other editor involved and myself already have a history of "rubbing each other up the wrong way" and I thought you might be able to offer a calming neutral influence if either of us steps (or has stepped) over the line with a bias one way or the other? Regards, Gouranga(UK) 11:38, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Matisse,

I saw your post that the intro now is inappropriate. I will have to see what changes you made, mull over it and undo some of mine. I think it was totally inappropriate for GourangaUK to delete so much of my own changes, which led to this dispute. Incidentally, a wikipedia advocate whom I consulted agrees that User:GourangaUK has violated WP:CIVIL by changes such as this diff). That is precisely what triggered this whole dispute in the first place. I too hold a PhD, and like you I was at Cal (10 years ago - I am old now ;) but I love the place). I firmly believe that my viewpoint is neutral and untainted by religious/national bias, I too put a lot of thought into my edits, and such uncivil edits by GourangaUK bothers me. Do catch the discussion in my own talk pages (at the bottom).

It would help if you could be more specific about what is inappropriate in the present introduction. I will come back tomorrow and make some changes to bring the intro closer to yours.

Cheers! SDas 18:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Mattisse, sorry for involving you in an edit war. I'm not here to win sides, if you feel my edits of this morning are out of line then please say so. I appreciate your assistance. Regards, Gouranga(UK) 11:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Hoysala Architecture

Hoysala architecture-->Lets think it over the weekend, I am tired today. I appreciate your efforts to improve the topic though. Thanks.Dineshkannambadi 01:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Hoysala architecture

It is featured now. Again, thanks for your many many unique contributions.Dineshkannambadi 21:22, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Its been a pleasure to work with you also. I have been at the office the entire day and was just wrapping up when I switched to wiki and saw. This success should give us confidence that other architecture articles can happen. Western Chalukya and Vijayanagara architecture to follow this year.Dineshkannambadi 21:31, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I have emailed you. Also western chalukyas next.Dineshkannambadi 21:51, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Emotional conflict

Douglas LaBier, in his book, is dealing mostly with emotional conflict in the career/job scenario while Emotional conflict can affect people anywhere. <Yoradler5 00:17, 4 March 2007 (UTC)>

I thought it would be helpful for people who might suffer pains sometimes associated with emotional conflict to read his book, I am not his agent and not interested in just making more money for him. I don't think that even he cares, he didn't want his picture on his own page when I wanted to add it and asked for permission to use <Yoradler5 00:43, 4 March 2007 (UTC)>

Thanks for your reply, I just read it. For people to benefit from Wikipedia they don't have to be brain surgeon and read all sorts of complicated data and research. I am sure that what happened to me is not unique to me but happens to many others who can understand what's on the page and might be able to benefit from the info. I am not a doctor, does that make my unpleasent experience with this problem not voluble. I added external links which do have a more professional writing on the subject. Some of the data for tension headache I learned from the tension headache page <Yoradler5 00:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)>

Let me ask you, if an external link on the page takes you to The University Health Center page of the University of Georgia and you read the following there, is it not credited enough support of what's claimed on the page? "A tension headache is a head pain that results from muscle tightening (contraction) in the neck and head. The muscle contraction leads to a slight decrease in blood flow to the surrounding areas and an irritation of pain fibers in the skin, muscles, and blood vessel walls." .."The causes are unknown. Anxiety, depression, and emotional conflicts are often associated with tension headaches.." Is it possible to give a source to the "Triger" section of the article? And if not, should it be eliminated? If links througout the article lead to information that reenforces the claimes in the article why can't the articles in them be given and/or considered as sources? Sincerely. <Yoradler5 04:07, 4 March 2007 (UTC)>

Is The University Health Center page of the University of Georgia a reliable, unbiased source? Is the Tension headache article of Wikipedia a reliable, unbiased source, and can I give them as sources? <Yoradler5 17:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)>

Bill Haley

Just curious regarding your edit to Bill Haley. Do we really need two tags that basically say the exact same thing? Strikes me as overkill. 23skidoo 23:31, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm Back

Dear Mattisse, After surviving some physical trauma and my computers collapse, I am back. I have started working. I will be needing your help on different events, pls help me as you can. I will be contacting you soon, by e-mail may be. Regards SamirShoovrow 17:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Mayurasharma has been nominated for DYK. Can you do a quick copy edit before it comes online.Dineshkannambadi

Thanks.Dineshkannambadi 02:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Archiving

Heya, try Werdnabot :) Gwen Gale 09:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks like it's working! Gwen Gale 15:43, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is consistant. Mayurasharma was from Talagunda as mentioned in his article but the he ruled from Banavasi in Uttara Kannada district which is perhaps 30 miles from Talagunda. So its ok.Dineshkannambadi 02:33, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

admin abuse

There is strict policy along these lines (if you can't find it ask me and I'll run it down for you) but yes, it's all true, admin abuse is wontedly ignored because you see, most of them are wanking teenaged boys who are here for less than encyclopedic reasons and many others are older men who more or less live in WP's MUD for like but, erm, more "grown up" reasons, so to speak. There are several dozen helpful admins lurking about though (and some are teenaged boys). Gwen Gale 15:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the Barnstar

Thanks for the charming Barnstar you gave to me. I truly appreciate it. I may be wrong but I think it's only the second barnstar I've ever gotten. So thank you very much! I'm going to copy it to my modest awards page. --Pig^man_dialogue 23:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Infinite monkey theorem

I happened to overhear (oversee?) your comments on the organization of Infinite monkey theorem elsewhere. If you'd like to share your ideas, by all means, please drop by Talk:Infinite monkey theorem and start a new topic. Melchoir 08:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

What is Haiti-me?

What is this article you created, Haiti-me, about? It seems to be a random collection of Haiti-related links. Jwillbur 21:52, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Doh, I just moved the page to your user space at User:Mattisse/Haiti-me before I saw your message that said "you can delete it". Any ways, now that it is in your user space, you can just put {{Db-author}} at the top and it will be speedily deleted. Jwillbur 22:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced message addressed to you?

The following message was posted to the page Your comments on Palakkad Fort. It seems to be for you. Cheers, FreplySpang 00:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

This article includes a list of works cited but its sources remain unclear....

Mattisse,

You had made the above comment for my contribution to Palakkad Fort.

This is the Reference, I had cited for the article: Imperial Gazetteer of India http://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/gazetteer/pager.html?objectid=DS405.1.I34_V19_365.gif

This is a valid reference. These is a p[ublicaly available resource of scanned copies of the Indian Gazzetteer in the year 1906.

MAy I know your concern?

Regards Ramanan

Oh yeah, a link might have been useful. Sorry! It's User talk:Ramananrv123. FreplySpang 00:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Digital South Asia Library

Their "terms of use" are clearly not compatible with Wikipedia:Licensing. That said, some of their material would fall under Bridgeman v Corel (our {{PD-art}}), and some of it appears to have been created by a United States soldier while in the course of their duties, and may not be eligible for copyright protection, but that would be difficult to establish without their assistance. There's no harm in writing them a polite note asking them to consider licensing some material under a free license. The Hensley collection is apparantly licensed CC-BY-NC-ND, so it is unlikely that they will agree, given that they have already considered their options and chose something as restrictive as possible. Jkelly 02:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Western Chalukyas--> I have kept the dashed lines for these reasons. The Kannada and Sanskrit works about Wes..Cha.. history is very important from the view point of study of their geneology and chronology and is consistant with Hoysala Empire, Rashtrakuta. In Vijayanagara Empire it was pushed into the citation because of the number of writings were too many. Regarding the dashed line in the lead, you are right, we dont have links to those temples (right now) unlike Hoysala Empire page where the three most famous temples were linked and explained in detail. I hate to take it out because we loose LEAD content. Let it be there for now untill I can think of more LEAD info. I corrected a factual error. The Eastern Chalukyas were cousins of Western Chalukyas.Dineshkannambadi 03:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Nice quote. It can go in the research section ot sculpture section. Preferably the former.

Yes what they did was create a series of rythemmic projections and recesses to give more surface area to carve on. From which book are you referencing. Quite ingeneous.Dineshkannambadi 14:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead.It is published, so its valid.Dineshkannambadi 14:41, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Note on my talkpage

Hi. When looking at the contributions of 70.109.90.252 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) I didn't notice any stalking going on, just some subtle vandalism and miscategorizing of articles, most of which were reverted by other editors. However none of these editors gave him any warnings, so I reverted the rest of his vandalism and warned him. When you notice a single purpose IP engaging in untoward editing, it is helpful to look at their contributions and then warn them right away to document their negative edits in case their behaviour escalates. Use one of these templates. Thanks! - WeniWidiWiki 15:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Hoysala architecture-->I believe that citation already exists in the Research section, but adding one more citation does not hurt.Dineshkannambadi 20:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh! I forgot to cite that. Its the first few lines of the paragraphs "Notable craftsman". The citation should have come from the web page by S.Settar or Githa U.B.Dineshkannambadi 22:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

No. got busy with Chavundaraya Why dont you add your citation?Dineshkannambadi 23:00, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes.Dineshkannambadi 23:06, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Talkpage archiving

Just doing the rounds of talkpages previously archived by EssjayBot III. Just to let you know that Misza13 has created MiszaBot III to perform the same function. You can request this Bot's services at User:MiszaBot/Archive requests. Werdnabot is presently blocked following a malfunction on the 6th and Werdna doesn't appear to be around to deal with the problem. WjBscribe 01:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Chavundaraya

Is ready for copy edits before DYK.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 01:20, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for coming in.Dineshkannambadi 03:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I will let you drive now.Dineshkannambadi 04:01, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Ikshavaku Dynasty

Hi, i noticed that you started the article on Ikshvaku dynasty. I have copies of Ramayan (Valmiki, Sri Sathya Sai Baba) and incorporated the lineage of the Ikshvaku dynasty as present in these books. Pls provide feedback Kalyan 10:15, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

In you article Indian inscriptions, the Ashokan inscriptions are in Prakrit language and script. Pali was also used frequently, not Tamil-Brahmi. Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions indicate Brahmi script modified to write Tamil Language and are from the early Cholas and Pandyas. You may want to refer back to this info in your book. This link may help.[2]Dineshkannambadi 15:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The link goes to an article in the Hindu news paper. Also by rosewood cieling image is in Keladi Nayaka page. How does Chavundaraya look for DYK? (it is already nominated)Dineshkannambadi 15

57, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the copy edit. Somehow articles always look better after they get your blessings.!!Dineshkannambadi 17:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

In what context is this?Dineshkannambadi 18:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I saw that page but was not sure if it had anything to do with any of the articles we are working on? or was this a general issue?Dineshkannambadi 20:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

It means that if his name is linked on another page, the reader will be sent to the disambiguation page. Usually, editors want to avoid that. --Mattisse 20:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I would worry about it if it had something to dowith our current topics. Oh! Isee he is probably referenced on Shravanabelagola page.That would be the earliest Chandragupta.Dineshkannambadi 20:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for copy edits on Rashtrakuta. Just make sure everytime you restart a copyedit process after a break to look at the History. The Vandals have not come back for some time but one never knows and you dont want to loose your edits. This is going to be a big one.Dineshkannambadi 21:52, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Hope not. Two ran away. One was banned. Also the items you have marked unclear are pretty clear. The earliest extant literature in Kannada is from their court poets and the royalty themselves. All their inscriptions are in Kannada and Sanskrit.Dineshkannambadi 21:57, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I though it was!! Anyway, I have changed it now:)Dineshkannambadi 22:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Both. I have rectified it.Dineshkannambadi 22:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Its there in my book. I guess its Englich.Dineshkannambadi 00:23, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

DYK nom on Indian inscriptions

Hello,

Thanks for creating article on Indian inscriptions. Just for your information, I have nominated a DYK on this article, by having the following hook.

• ...that the Halmidi inscription, an (Indian inscription), found near the tiny village of Halmidi, in Karnataka, India, is the oldest known inscription in the Kannada language?

Thanks, - KNM ^Talk 04:10, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Good job. You should have included info on copper plate inscriptions which are almost as common as stone inscriptions.Dineshkannambadi 15:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I have added a 745 CE Kannada inscription image I have from Badami to your DYK (in fact my friend took this photograph) and I believe you have put it in your user page too. We should be able to get an image of a copper plate inscription from somewhere (Tamil Language page). Maybe you want to add, "inscriptions are generally of two kinds Stone (called Shilashasana) and copper plate (Tamarashasana)". In fact we can get more detailed and specify what purposes required copper plates and what admin purposes need stone inscription. We can further get sohpisticated and add slab/pillar types etc.Dineshkannambadi 15:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Nothing in particular, that you need to do regarding the DYK nom. If there are any concerns raised by anyone, I'll let you know. Thanks. - KNM ^Talk 16:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, why not?. Rashtrakuta will come after western chalukya anyway. My Kambadahalli images from 8th century will suffice for now.Dineshkannambadi 19:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, we should work on making Indian inscriptions in FA in the future.Dineshkannambadi 19:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

You are right. There are several monuments in Ellora but it is unviersally known that the grand piece of Ellora "Kailasanatha" temple was built by the Rashtrakutas. What does your book say about that.Yes there are several theories on the Rashtrakutas and much of it has been documented in the "origin" section with citations from over 10 scholars.Dineshkannambadi 23:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

My book agrees that the grandest was built by them. Yes. But also, the artisan situation was very complex and maybe this would be an opportunity to get into more of that. Sincerely, --Mattisse 23:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Artisan's meaning Architects right? Maybe in the Architecture location.If there is anything really opposite to the stuff in the article, I would like see it. Can you scan it over to me? Or just type it.Dineshkannambadi 23:56, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

How does this contradict anything in the article? If anything, it adds info that was previously not there. This is good stuff but perhaps in the subarticle "Rashtrakuta Architecture" which does not still exist. What do you think? However, If you can make it simple for the reader (which I know you can), there is no reason it should no be included here on the main page also. A book I have been planning to order "Chalukyan architecture of Kanarese districts" by Henry Cousens goes really into detail on sculptures etc just like the Hoysala book. But I though it would be better to do that after my India visit.Dineshkannambadi 00:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Modes of inscriptions? Do you mean languages?Dineshkannambadi 00:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I mean coins, carving in rock, carving on the wall of temples, writing on palm leaves and probably many other ways I don't know about. When you say, "inscriptions show", I wonder what kind of inscription -- besides the languages. Inscriptional evidence is found all over India, from what I can gather. --Mattisse 00:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Generally inscriptions mean Stone or copper plate, the most common types. Sometimes I do specify if the author specifies. If you read the page Origin of Rashtrakutas all the info on Emblems, Epithets, some info on coins is mentioned. By the 1st mellinium inner bark of leaves, conch shells etc had gone out of fashion for writing inscriptions. Good idea. Give me a list before I go and I will add to that my own list. But I must remember that my family will be with me partially atleast and I cant push the kids beyond a limit. Indian country side is still very rural. (But since I like to travel alone too which I normally do to do Wildlife Photography, I can stop off and be more rugged. Every 10 kms in Karnataka you will find an architectural GEM. Hoysala in the south, Western Chalukya and Vijayanagara in the centre, Badami Chalukya and Rashtrakuta in the north. not to forget Nayaka kingdoms, Mysore Kingdom). Looks like you are getting into the mood and talking complicated terms, just as I had figured you would once you get to have an affair with INDIA.Dineshkannambadi 00:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I have a new book to source from which I have indicated in the main Rashtrakuta page: Altekar.

I will be using this also and should be complete with the "social life" and "Economy", "Language" sections in a few weeks time.Then for peer review.Dineshkannambadi 01:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Do you like the roof sculptures on the Gangas page. I have added one of them to the Rashtrakuta page. Perhaps one more instead of the Mantapa?Dineshkannambadi 01:39, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I have corrected two issues, one in architecture and other about Imperial Kannauj to bring out the meaning of the citation. How can the Buddhist caves be built by Pandyan kings when they were nowhere in the picture. The Chalukyas ruled the whole os Maharashtra in the 7th century from Badami, karnataka. This is a mistake. The buddhist caves perhaps go back from 1st century-7th century, during the rule of Satavahanas, Vakatakas and Chalukyas of Badami.Please verify this. The Pandyas never even captured Karnataka, let alone Maharashtra.Dineshkannambadi 01:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Just as I had figured. Its a Pandyan influence, not built by the Pandyan's themselves. I believe the wording was confusing. I shall re-add the phrase. please see if thats ok. Sounder Rajan is a well known art critic.Dineshkannambadi 15:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I have rectified it. we need to be careful in judging what scholars say. Not your fault. The topic you have choosen, "Indian Rock Cut architecture" is a vast topic covering about 800 years of Buddhist/Jain architecture and finally Hindu elements. Without a trip to Ellora, Ajanta and other places (Mahabalipuram) it would be tough to accomplish because you wont have the feel for it. You need to feel the sculpture (with your eyes) to understand what you read. Not trying to discourge you. Which is why I made it a point to visit Hoysala temples repeatedly (15 temples, some multiple times on consecutive years, and I am not done yet). Try to focus on DYK's untill you gain more confidence. This is a vast ocean you are in.Dineshkannambadi 15:44, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The wording should not imply it was built by the Pandyans. Influence is something,occupation and construction is something else. artists from Pandya region (Tamil) may have been employed as artisans.Dineshkannambadi 15:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

please see Kalugumalai in Tamil Nadu.Dineshkannambadi 15:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe there may be a mixup. Does it says the Pandyan cave temples at Ellora built by Pandyan Kings?Dineshkannambadi 15:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Ellora is in Maharashtra, 1500 Kms from Pandya kingdom.Dineshkannambadi 15:57, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

No. But they were normally commissioned by them. This has nothing to do with Kingdoms,just about getting the context right.Dineshkannambadi 16:00, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see the link to Takeyo Kamiya's page on Ellora and discription of the cave temples. He is a well known architect too.[3]. All I am saying is that these cave temples were in South Indian style and Sounder Rajan probably means they are in Pandyan style.Dineshkannambadi 16:05, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Were the traders from around Madurai or the caves? I think it is the latter.Dineshkannambadi 16:06, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Can you scan and fax the pages to me by email. This is really interesting.Dineshkannambadi 16:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see [4] which shows pandyan cave temples. I fully agree the Ellora caves were built over 600 years. I already mentioned that in one of our previous messages. It was built over the period of Satavahanas, Vakatakas, Chalukyas and Rashtrakutas. I can quote you 6 authors that the Ellora caves were not built by the Pandyans. When you say Pandyans it implies the Pandyan Kings and that is not true. Artisans have moved around the country irrespective of political developments. These rock cut and stand alone temple building competition between Kingdoms of Kannada and Tamil regions came to the fray in 6th century and continued into the 13th. Temples (cave and other wise) were built simulateneously in both places.Dineshkannambadi 16:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Leave out the Satavahanas and Vakatakas. They contributed in Ajanta.Dineshkannambadi 17:03, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I saw the link you sent me. please be careful while referening to these blog sites. There coud be altered information there. They are not written by scholars.Dineshkannambadi 17:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree that patronage came from wealthy individuals just as they came from kings. I also agree tha artisans were above political situations and travelled around

takng their Talents with them. I also agree that the Kingdoms generally gave even support to all religions in their sculptural persuits. All that is fine. If you noticed, I did not go into details about what the 34 caves were, which belonged to whom et etc. I fet that was a topic more for the "Rashtrakuta architecture" subarticle (which does not exits). All I am saying is that just as the Chalukyas and Rashtrakutas along with perhaps rich locals gave patronage to the cave temple/stand alone temple building in the Westen Deccan, so did the Tamil temples in the deep south. We should not mix one with the other. There is still controversy whether the chalukyas built the Pattadakal temples first or the Pallavas, their competitors in deep south, their temples at Mahabalipuram. Calling the Ellora group of cave temples "Pandyan" is wrong as it implies to the world "Pandyan Kingdom".Dineshkannambadi 18:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I sincerely get your point. There is no doubt the Ellora complex is largely southIndia/Dravidian. Adam Hardy calls it Karnata Dravida. I have a citation for it at the bottom of the architecture section on Rashtrakuta article. Thats why I called it Pandyan influence.Dineshkannambadi 18:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Just to emphasise the point, Prof Settar says that some structures in Belur/Halebidu (Hoysala temples) is Cholan art. That does not mean it was built by the Chola kingdom.

Scholars tend to identfy people/artisans from the region they come from calling them a name based the Kingdom that ruled those people where they came from. A temple becomes Cholan if it is financed by the Cholas. If it is built by Chola artists but commissioned by Hoysalas, it becomes Cholan influence/art/touches in Hoysala architecture.Dineshkannambadi 19:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Vijayanagara architecture (cited in its page) is a combination of Hoysala, Chalukya, Pandya and Chola styles. Whom do we give the credit to? To the people who commissioned it!!. Kings/Nobility/rich landlords who funded projects just dont hand over money and walk away. They are involved in the planningg, rejecting some micro styles, accepting others based on their tastes/likes/dislikes. The architects and sculptors are free to make their decisions based on guidelines set to them by their paymasters.The credit goes to the commissioners. Chavundaraya is a good example. Dineshkannambadi 19:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The Rashtrakutas had many provincial capitals. Manyakheta was their regal capital from 800 CE. This is universally accepted. Mayurkhandi in Bidar district was their admin capital from 750-800 according to my book. Your book is not discredited. Ellora may have been be the temple building capital. After Ellora, they built most of their monuments in Pattadakal, Manyakheta, Lokapura etc in Karnataka. One of my books also say, "patronised" Ellora before making Manyakheta their regal capital. So you see, every scholar has his own view. But all agree that Manyakheta was the regal capital for the longest. What does that have to do with art or credit for art?

When your book says that the cave temples were built by Pandyas, he means artists were from Pandyan country. They were not people who all had Pandya as the last name. The artistic flavours are Pandyan.See my emailDineshkannambadi 19:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

actually I can give you a good example where polity played into architecture. You are right, the artists had great freedom, but eventually we are all governed by polity and the circumstances. In Vijayanagara empire, temples built prior to 1450 were in deccan style (meaning no dravida style towering gopurams). After 1450, the salva and Tuluva kings patronised the Dviata saints of Udupi (unline the earlier Sangama dysnaty had patronised the adviata saints of Sringeri). Their new ritualistic needs brought about a ritualistic change in the architecture. This is is when dravida style gopurams were

added to all new and existing temples. The Vijayanagar architets choose the hard granite of Vijayanagara area (central Karnataka) for their temples, even though they had complete control over the whole of South Karnataka where sopastone is available in plenty. Why? Because they had to contend with durability as opposed to scultability, based on a constsnt threat of invasion from the muslim rulers in the north. Temple destruction was the favorite sport in those days so they had to go for strength than softness. This is cited in tha related page.

Lets consider the Hoysalas. Sandwitched between the Seunas in the north of Krishna river (north Karnataka) and the Pandyas South Tamil Nadu, they had to stick to a temple building idiom that matched their geography. The sopastone is plentyful in Mysore Plateau. So they popularised it. If they had long term control over north Karnataka or forayed into Maharashtra, what is the guarentee they would not have used Granite. The choice of stone would completely change the guilds involved. So as you see, political situation and administrative needs plays into it completely.

The same goes for our lives. Arent we effected directly by decisions made in the White House?Dineshkannambadi 20:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I fully appreciate your arguements. I have replied by email. also see[5] in Andhr Pradesh. We have touched upon a topic that I dont have the knowledge or courage to argue with anyone. It takes a lifetime for historians to even scratch the surface and I dont think we should hastily pass opinions on it.Lets just get on with the FA.Dineshkannambadi 00:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

DYK

On 15 March, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Indian inscriptions, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--howcheng {chat} 06:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Your suggested project

I'm assuming you're suggesting working on India articles through Wikipedia:WikiProject India? Or is this just a general suggestion to find a project to help focus my work through? If it's India related articles, I'm not sure I have the temperament for it. Perhaps it's just the articles I run across day to day but many of these overwhelm me with the sheer amount of work they need. Often I'm not even sure what the article is trying to say, a requisite for me to clarify, refine, and copyedit them. Yes, I know this isn't the case with more central and established articles, but the ones on family names and villages of 1000 people I just want to put up for speedy deletion. My suspicion is that, as the result of India's colonial past under English rule as well as current American/global economic demands, a sizable percentage of the population speaks and writes English to some degree. The operating phrase there is "to some degree". When inappropriate articles are started by Americans or Europeans, I at least have some understanding of the cultural touchstones for them. I trust my judgment less for cultures in that part of the world. Ideally, Wikipedia standards for judging articles are universal but my ability to apply these standards to many of these articles seems impaired.

I suddenly realize this may sound horribly racist which is NOT (I don't think) where I'm coming from. For me it's a practical matter of sometimes finding the English sentences so difficult to parse (and often including proper names and/or titles unfamiliar to me) that I don't know how to begin to refine and shape the content into a comprehensible form. Sometimes I'm even unclear about which words should be capitalized. I often lack a basic understanding of the central point of some of these articles.

However, I agree that finding a Wikiproject to work with would be good for me to help me focus. I'll think about where I'm drawn to for the next few days. Thanks for the suggestion. Best, Pig^man_dialogue 19:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, well, sure. I'll pop over to User:Salix alba's talk page and see what's up. Although math is not my strong point, I'd be willing to give it a shot. As long as I don't have to verify the accuracy of equations above a simple algebraic level I think I could handle something like that. Thanks for the tip. --Pig^man_dialogue 20:20, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

No it is not. A simple stone inscription from early 12th century.Dineshkannambadi 22:06, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

No Idont unfortunatelyDineshkannambadi 22:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

User Sarvagnya has provided a link at the bottom of my user talk page which has the image of a virgal (herostone). So the one that I took (Doddagaddavalli inscription) which you enquired if it was a copper plate has stark similarity with the one sarvangya provided. So they are both Hero stones.Dineshkannambadi 01:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Congrats for making a DYK (Indian inscriptions). I have completed "social life" in Rashtrakuta. I will clean up the citation format. Apart from the "History" which you have cleaned up, the other sections are still to be copy edited. You should first do is a general light copy edit of the sections for now. we can get to the indepth copy edits later. I believe society will have to be reduced in size later. At that time, we can create a subarticle for it, move the unreduced one into that and reduce the section in the main article.

Lookslike we have two images for Virgals. Ask sarvagnya where he got his image and which era/kingdom it beloned to. If you plan to extend the Hero stone article, you need that info. All I know is mine came from the Hoysala era from DoddagaddavalliDineshkannambadi 01:52, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

My gallery

Hi Matisse, here's my wikicommons account.. and if you go there.. you should see a gallery tab on that page. There you'll find all my pics. Watch that space.. I have some more coming up. Cheers :) Sarvagnya 04:19, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Howel Williams

Hi- You recently tagged the article as "needs better sourcing & intext citations".

I just looked the article over, and it looks like a pretty standard, decent Wikipedia short bio, so I'm not sure what you have in mind.

Can you reply to Talk:Howel Williams, please?

Thanks, Pete Tillman 20:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Today was rough. work and 14" of snow to deal with. Altekar covers administration, Government, Economy, Army and Revenue in 200 pages. This book is a real authority. Not funny!! I have condenced 30 pages of socal life into what you see taking only very important points. Tommorow Western Chalukyas will go for FAC.Dineshkannambadi 00:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Altekar is? the author of The Rashtrakutas and their times.

Snow is? (You have to shovel it or something? You are supposed to be reading and writing!) I had a plougher come over but still had to do some work on my own. Plus office today.

Western Chalukyas to FAC - that is the easy one, right? The first step? Yes.

I have been reading about Rashtrakuta - complicated picture! K.V Soundara Rajan thinks there was a power grab. Have to be careful. Historians have their prejudices too. Rahtrakutas of Manyakheta were Kannadigas. Soundara Rajan is probably not. Ask him about the Cholas (whom the Rashtrakutas pulvarised) and he may go ga-ga.Dineshkannambadi 00:35, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

You have email.Dineshkannambadi 00:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Bull Temple

Hi, This history section of the bull gorowing is a popular legend and may be we should have it as such listing it under Trivia or popular legend sections of the article. Let me know your thoughts. -- Naveen ^(talk) 19:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Your wish, my commandDineshkannambadi 21:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see my comments below in brackets().

It is significant that a surge in religion and its art is manifest almost from the time when Dantidurga made Ellora his capital....This phenomenon at Ellora needs some explanation, especially since a new rulership needs some time to establish itself before significant art programmes are launched. Here at Ellora there was: (Made it the capital when?. Dantidurga was ruling as a chalukya feudatory from 735 onwards from northern Maharashtra. here is my statement in the LEAD section. The clans that ruled from Elichpur were feudatories of the Badami Chalukyas and during the rule of Dantidurga (also known as Dantivarman), they overthrew Chalukya Kirtivarman II and went on to build an impressive empire with the Gulbarga region in modern Karnataka as their base. Elichpur is in that general region .Dineshkannambadi 22:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC) I can quote you 6 authors that Gulbarga was their base. The Rashtrakutas had several capitals initially. I was reading yesterday (Reu, The History of Rashtrakutas) that Dantidurgas initial capital was Mayurkhandi in Maharashtra. But Kamath, Thapar, Altekar all concede the intial and final regal capitals were in north Karnataka, ie Bidar district and Gulbarga district. same with John Keay. The issue here is not so much their initial capital but their longest and most famous regal capital, Manyakheta.Dineshkannambadi 22:52, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, a continuity of guild activity among resident artisans which must have been enriched by a new band of court artists and artisans who gave a fresh touch to the art idiom.

Secondly, Buddhism overlapped Brahmanical activities during this transitional stage, in a somewhat experimental inflection, distinctive from the style of the newcomers, the Rastrakutas.

The period was traumatic for Buddhism, as the superimposition of what we may call an architectural and sculptural palimpsest — the dramatic smothering of Buddhism — in the Dasavatara cave would reveal.

Rastrakuta power bridged the traditions of the upper and lower Deccan. Through their involvements in the lower south of the peninsula where their art had its compeers in art synthesis and connoisseurship among the Palllavas, the Pandyas, the Gangas, and the Nolambas, and with the even handed art patronage of Brahmanical religion and Jainism, they had a rich equipment, not perhaps systematically cultivated but sensitively absorbed from the total pool of tradtions in south India.

(I have already given a combined statement that the Rashtrakuta rule brought the entire deccan architecture together.The Kailasanath Temple project was commissioned by King Krishna I after the Rashtrakuta rule had spread into South India from the Deccan. The architectural style used was dravidian. It does not contain any of the Shikharas common to the Nagara style and was built on the same lines as the Virupaksha temple at Pattadakal in Karnataka..) The deccan art includes all the kingdoms you mentioned above. The images of the sculptures I have put in the main page is from the Gangas. The word dravidian art is generally applied to all arts that come in the south India zone. What am i missing?)Dineshkannambadi 22:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The Temples at Pattadakal themselves are a combination of South Indian (Kadamba, Pallava art) and North Indian art. I have generalised it, your are specifying it, thats all.Dineshkannambadi 22:52, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Is your contention about the early capital or the architecture or both.Dineshkannambadi 22:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see this statement "As a Chalukya feudatory Dantidurga had possibly ruled from modern Elichpur (ancient Achalapura in Berar), Amravathi district in modern Maharashtra.[21] With his family based in modern Gulbarga, Dantidurga took control of the northern areas of the Chalukya empire and helped his father-in-law, Pallava King Nandivarman, to regain Kanchi from the Chalukyas.[22]"Dineshkannambadi 22:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I am quoting various authors here,

Sastri-->Early capital of Rashtrakuta feudatory in 742 was Ellora. Regal capital built by Amghavarsha was Manyakheta.

Kamath-->Early capital after defeating Chalukyas (post 753) is not clear. By 794 Govinda made Mayurkhandi in Bidar district his capital. Manyakheta became regal capital in 814 by Amoghavarsha. Remained so till 973 when the empire ended

Altekar-->does not mention early capital. Manyakheta was regal capital till the end.

Thapar-->The Rashtrakutas made Gulbarga their base. (Manyakheta is in Gulbarga district by the way).

John Keay-->The Rashtrakutas patronised Ellora first before making Manyakheta their capital.

Pandit Reu-->Mayurkhandi in Maharashtra (modern Morkhand in Nasik, near Ellora)was initial capital, Regal capital from the time of Amgohavarsha (814) was Manyakheta (also known as Malkhed)

Ramesh-->Aurangabad (where Ellora is) was the locaton from where dantidurga and his ancestors ruled from before defeating the Chalukyas of Badami and making Manyakheta the capital.

All the authors mentioned categorically called them "RASHTRAKUTAS of MANYAKHETA". modern name for MANYAKHETA is MALKHED.Dineshkannambadi 23:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

After reading all these books it seems their capital may have been fluid from 753-814 when they may have had several moving capitals. This is what Dr. Jyotsna Kamat mentions too.But I dont think we need to make an issue of it.Dineshkannambadi 23:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not being defensive. I though I had covered the general aspects of their History and architecture and was not sure what you actually meant in your cut and paste as I can fully relate to it and fully agree with it. I did not feel you were disparaging or belittling the Rashtrakutas nor did I feel any religious relfex about the comments on Buddhism. To me its of little significance. I only concern myself with the beauty of the art. In your current cut and paste

you mentioned Ellora as their capital and I saw it once before in an earlier cut and paste. So I quickly went thru my books to lay it on the table. The world Knows them as "Rashtrakutas of Manyakheta" or Malkheda and I just wanted you to appreciate the effort I took to read all those books (and still am). Surely, when we start to work on their architecture in detail your book will play an important role, but a FA on architecture without photographs and a variety of it would be too stale (meaning Hindu, Jain etc). Feel free to put in info into the architecture section you feel is clear to you and we can examine it for context.I appreciate the effort you are taking to read the book, and I want you to know I fully agree that the Rashtrakuta style is a blending of many styles. This blending itself led to a new style called Vesara which was epitomised by the Hoysalas later.Dineshkannambadi 00:08, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I have had to deal with some people on this article who could not bear to accept the architecture

was "dravidian" (combination of various south Indian styles). It came as a shock to them that "their" architecture at Ellora was dravidian, as they went around flaunting themselves as "Aryan". I have seen real specimens on this article which has seen a fair share of vandalism as I mentioned earlier. None of them were really concerned with architecture, only the origin and to prove the Rashtrakutas did not patronise Kannada. Thank you for taking so much interest in these things.Dineshkannambadi 00:24, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Bharoch was their main shipping capital, Ellora their main architectural focus, Manyakheta the regal capital which Amoghavarsha tried to make as beautiful as the capital of Lord Indra in the heavens (Sastri) and so on. It is not very different from todays India. When people talk of Manufacturing they are invariably speaking of Gujarat, Bombay or Chennai. When they refer to High Technology, Bangalore leads the way and Delhi ofcourse is the Administrative capital.We just need to keep that in perspective.Dineshkannambadi 01:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

it will take me a copule of more days to complete the sections on Economy and Taxation.Dineshkannambadi 01:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh! I do teach Maths and Kannada to my kids (though Kannada is not in their syllabus).

Nothing extraordinary. Just priorities.Dineshkannambadi 20:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

And the photograph of the "Statue of Liberty" on my user page is a gift from a friend when in reality I live in hot and steamy Brazil!!

Regarding Photographs, while there is no doubt the Ellora images are the greatest of the Rashtrakuta art, the world often forgets the fabulous temples (stand alone) they built in Karnataka : Pattadakal - 2 temples and Kuknur-1 group of 9 temples and dozens more in north Karnataka. I intend to bring this to wikipedia. The Kuknur temples (9 temples in a cluster) are going to get my visit this year. I will look up more. Perhaps an FA article called "Rashtrakuta art in Karnataka" will be worth it.Dineshkannambadi 21:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Western Chalukyas is in FAC, I have added fresh info to the last two paragraphs (per reviewer requirement)of the History section. A copy edit from you would be good.thanksDineshkannambadi 00:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am not good at general articles. Perhaps lack the motivation there. I dont understand "probably because your attitudes are whatever that other guy called me"Dineshkannambadi 00:56, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

sorry. I thought you had given up for the day and was working on the LEAD. If you want to spend a few minutes on the history section, I will let you drive.Dineshkannambadi 01:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I have expanded the lead for flow per reviewer. I had expanded the last 3 paras in History section. Please copy edit both changes.Dineshkannambadi 02:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

In the reviewers comments, I dont understand the following.

1) Why Western? Eastern should be differenciated in the lead. 2)8th century etc. would be more readable if spelled out. 3)Imperial eq to metric would be useful

Does he want to know why its called western chalukyas? The other two are a bit ambiguous to me.Dineshkannambadi 02:33, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

DYK

On 20 March, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Ashoka's Major Rock Edict, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--ALoan (Talk) 14:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The western chalukyas were cousins of the eastern ones. Not too many writers write on eastern chalukyas because they first of all started out as a Badami chalukya republic (feudatory if you would like) and remained so for for some time, then becase a Pallava feudatory and then again a Badami chalukya feudatory. Then came under the Rashtrakutas, gaining independence briefly from 850-950. Then again they were constantly siding with the western chalukyas and cholas finally getting absorbed into the chola domains by marraige in 1000 time whence historians call them Chalukya Cholas. So their 600 year rule , like the Western Ganga Dynasty of Southern Karnataka was patchy, except the Gangas build world famous monuments at Shravanabelagola.Dineshkannambadi 21:21, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Did you have an opportunity to copy edit the Lead and History (bottom 3 paras) in western chalukyas?Dineshkannambadi 00:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Yesterday we were discussing about writing general vs specific and specialised articles. I feel if I write several specific articles, in the process I end up learning much need general knowledge

for general articles. If you ever start a more generalised article, you can bank on me to chip in.Dineshkannambadi 02:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

MoS application at Hoagy Carmichael

Hi. Could you please explain your interpretation of the MoS as regards the above article, as I always use this guideline, and it appears to say that month and day should almost always be linked to allow user preferred format to appear? The provisos say nothing about birthdates or dates of death in a biography not being linked, and if you could point me to where it does, I will not revert your recent changes. If you cannot convince me of your correctness in this, I feel bound to return the article to its former state. You might also pop into the article talk page to clarify things for others. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks. Refsworldlee^(chew-fat)(eds) 15:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

But the linking you are removing is also a formatting issue, as regards user preferences. It follows that un-date-linked articles then force the reader into viewing the date in a certain way, rather than how they prefer, which is the reason for allowing personal-choice formatting of dates in the first place.

I think you have this totally wrong - I would agree that "year" dates in one article need only be linked to the year once, just as you would only link once to another Wikipedia article within the same article.

I would ask you to seek advice from a higher source i.e. a long-standing editor or admin, as I really think you are causing a lot of format choice destruction in the context of what I have laid out above. You have not provided me with the link to a specific guideline, which is what I asked for. I gave you the link for the guideline I always use.

I really do think I must revert Hoagy Carmichael unless you reply with a hard, set guideline for me to read. I have tried to find what you are referring to, albeit rather vaguely, but cannot. If you would do this, I would obviously apply the rule in the future myself. Thanks. Refsworldlee^(chew-fat)(eds) 17:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The link you gave me says, under "dates and numbers", (quote):

"Where a date contains day, month, and year — 25 March, 2004 — or day and month — February 10 — a link will permit the date preferences of the reader to operate. Day, month, and year must all be linked for the preference to work fully."

So it appears to approve of date preferences - and you are removing that wholesale. Can you now see my point? I would ask you to hold fire with any further de-linking in articles until we/you get total clarification from someone. I will contact an admin I know to get an opinion. Thanks. Refsworldlee^(chew-fat)(eds) 17:29, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

But the day-month-year combination is not a single-value reference - the multi-facet is what makes the preference work, and you are removing the preference! I prefer to ask Chris Kreider if that's okay. I would ask that you wait, but please go ahead with your third opinion, as I would be interested to hear why genuine user preferences formatting should ever be torpedoed in Wikipedia. Cheers. Refsworldlee^(chew-fat)(eds) 17:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Why have you now reverted Hoagy, without waiting for a second, third, fourth opinion or whatever? Can I just make sure I am not being taken for a ride here? I would appreciate your response. Refsworldlee^(chew-fat)(eds) 18:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Ouch! Why the sour response? Play the game, please. An article's an article. We can all improve them by investing time, whether it's our 'bag' or not. Refsworldlee^(chew-fat)(eds) 18:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) I saw the advice he gave you (none even feature articles and all articles that people mess with a lot). That is not my interest. So I wanted to please you and revert the article so you would not be unhappy. It seems neither of us right now can come up with a satisfactory resource at the momment. I looked at the Village Pump but none of the categories seemed to fit our question. Do you have a suggestion as to an authority to ask? Sincerely, Mattisse 18:16, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Since you have no authority either - lets drop it.

Sincerely, Mattisse 18:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I need to make a small correction. Dont want you to lose your edits.Dineshkannambadi 20:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Just answered it on the article.Dineshkannambadi 20:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, for sometime now I have been thinking of giving a brief account of the various styles of Kannada literature such as Champu, Ragale, sangatya, Tripadi, Shatpadi etc (With the exception of Champu all others are unique to Kannada). To create a stub page with even 8 lines of info I need a better reference book than the ones I have now which usually just write a line or two about it.Dineshkannambadi 22:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

at some point later I want to make a FA out of Kannada literature. This article will prevail upon

the major trends in Kannada literature (champu, ragale ...), major and landmark writings, most famous epic poets etc.Dineshkannambadi 22:36, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I have started the Economy section. If you need to do copy edits, let me know and I will log off.Dineshkannambadi 23:21, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

yes. you have mail.Dineshkannambadi 23:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

DYK

On 22 March, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Indian copper plate inscriptions, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--howcheng {chat} 06:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

From Samir

Dear Mattisse, I am working for an article in which the references you used in different places for Philosophy of death and adjustment will be useful. I need your permission for using those references. Pls let me know by e-mail, preferrably. SamirShoovrow 07:09, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

re DYK

The article Indian copper plate inscriptions was indeed featured on the Main page on March 22 01.58 - 08.15 (Wikipedia Time). --Camptown 13:43, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Trust me, it appeared on the Front page for 6 hours and 17 minutes - It's the last entry on the 01.58 revision, so when you were notified, the article had already been on the front page for more than 4 hours. --Camptown 15:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Vihara

On 22 March, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Vihara (monastery), which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

I'm leaving the notice right after having updated the Main Page this time. :) --howcheng {chat} 17:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I just saw the title edit in Rashtrakuta page. The first two words in LEAD should be Rashtrakuta dynasty (many offshoots of this family ruled between 6-13th century) not Rashtrakutas of Manyakheta who ruled from 8-10 century. In the second paragraph I slide into Rashtrakutas of Manyakheta, the topic of interest. This is similar to Chalukya dynastyDineshkannambadi 19:54, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes. This needs correction. The article needs to be called "Rashtrakuta dynasty". The title will carry the same highlighted name in the first line. The template and map box will relate to Rashtrakutas of Manyakheta as they are the subject under study. This is exactly how the Chalukya dynasty page was made FA. Once I complete the sections on Economy, touch upon administration, Army etc, I will create subarticle stubs for lesser known "later" Rashtrakuta families and link it. Not much is known about the 6-7th centuries Rashtrakutas as explained in the article History section. Go ahead and request for an article name change keeping a redirect from Rashtrakuta to Rashtrakuta dynasty.thanksDineshkannambadi 20:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I am going to rename the article now. Dont loose your edits.let me know when you are readyDineshkannambadi 21:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually a page called R..dynasty already exists redirected to "Rashtrakuta". Glad I did not do the move. Now all I have to do is redirect back, I think...

Also, the word dynasty implies families. So all other kingdoms with this name come under the same dynasty.This is what they wanted on Chalukya dynasty page also.Dineshkannambadi 21:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I have asked some other users to help with the redirect back, just in case I make a mistake.Dineshkannambadi 21:20, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Rashtrakuta-->I will be typing in more info into Economy section.Dineshkannambadi 23:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I will head for dinner now. So you can keep busy with the article for some time. I had planned on typing the economy section tonight though I am not sure if I can manage the whole section. The reviewer in Western Chalukyas said something is missing from the box, though I am not sure what. I compared the box to Hoysala empire box and it seems ok.I will write a DYK this weekend, so there is something to do.Dineshkannambadi 23:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

do you have any DYK ideas?Dineshkannambadi 00:28, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I meant do you have any DYK topics on mind from history point of view?Dineshkannambadi 00:33, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

You could copy edit the Lead and History (last 3 paras) of western chalukyas which I made additions to if you are not too fried.Dineshkannambadi 00:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

EitherDineshkannambadi 00:37, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

DYK suggestions - will list here

...that under the Western Chalukyas dynasty ruling South India between the 10th and 12th centuries, arts and crafts were organised into powerful, independent guilds, and work was done on a corporate basis. (nom) Mattisse 01:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a little over the 200 character count but may be O.K.

I'm afraid, this is not eligible for DYK, because neither of these articles are created or significantly expanded in last 5 days. It is one of the most important DYK requirements, to be get featured. - 01:31, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Normally topics that are FA material like Western Chalukyas would not be accepted for DYK as their edits are made over several weeks.Dineshkannambadi 01:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I was generally asking since you got 4 out this week.Dineshkannambadi 01:56, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: Linking dates

Your quote doesn't tell me at all why I for one should not link dates - it tells me that one editor in particular is persuading another editor (or more than one editor possibly) not to link dates. It does not explain why the technical situation is 'unfortunate', so much so that dates should not be linked to serve the purpose of user preference formatting. Your 'expert' does not explain his problem (or the fraternity's problem perhaps?) with this function in the quote you give.

I remain unmoved on this subject I am afraid. You may want to ask your expert to contact me directly at my talk page if you so wish, or if you feel it is that important.

And I'm always interested in quality article editing, though I have no sense of elitism where that's concerned. Refsworldlee^(chew-fat)(eds) 02:09, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

We have both had a long day.Dineshkannambadi 02:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Huh?

What's this about? --Wafulz 02:45, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Just so you know, reports are automatically removed once a user is blocked. If the user was not blocked, then it might have been removed accidentally. --Wafulz 02:56, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

If this save problem on Rashtrakuta page goes on, we will bring in an admin and explain.

Perhaps he can help.Let me make some edits tonight and see what happens.Dineshkannambadi 22:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Western chalukyas is proposed to rename to Western Chalukya Empire. All is quite so far. only two reviewers.Dineshkannambadi 22:31, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Rashtrakuta-->I will start some edits to Economy section now. Is that ok.Dineshkannambadi 00:01, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Rashtrakuta-->I have completed the ECONOMY section. By mistake I did a copy edit of the sections you had already copy edited, but later reverted, so your copy edits are preserved. Only the last three paras are new and need copy editing now.Dineshkannambadi 02:50, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

How do you access the pump?Dineshkannambadi 15:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

KNM took care of the problem. These guys are good.!!Dineshkannambadi 15:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Starwood

The above-named arbitration case has closed and the decision may be found at the link above. Rosencomet is cautioned to avoid aggressive editing of articles when there is a question of conflict of interest. If edit warring or other conflict arises, it may be best to limit editing to talk pages. This notice is given by a clerk on behalf of the Arbitration Committee. Newyorkbrad 17:00, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Rashtrakuta

What needs to be done. 1. Once you copy edit the last three paras of Economy A seperate sub-article will be created for it.
2. We can do a major reduction of "Economy" and "Society" so as to be no longer than literature/Religion sections (4-5 paras).
3. I need to expand on Administration. Its too short right now.
4. I need to create Language section, Foreign notes (subsection)
5. Add citations for subarticle "Great Karnataka Expansion" and go for DYK
6. Create stubs for Descendent kingdoms

So much needs to be done, atleast a month I would say.Dineshkannambadi 21:51, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

No I am not going to be working on Rashtrakuta today. So go ahead. First lets get a light copy edit on Economy. Then you can create a subarticle for "Economy of Rashtrakuta empire of Manyakheta" or I can do it after your edits.(as it pertains specifically to Manyakheta empire). The we start a chop of Economy and Society, sticking to only important details, the rest will reside in the subarticle anyway for the interested reader.Dineshkannambadi 21:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

"These taxes were paid to the village Gavunda or headman over and above land owner taxes".

It meant the land owner or tenant payed variety of taxes, including land tax, produce tax and overheads for maintenance of Gavunda.Dineshkannambadi 22:35, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Can you unearth for me someone who is willing to draw two maps for me?Dineshkannambadi 15:25, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Now that you have cleaned up Society and Economy in Rashtrakuta, we need to chop it down for space. Can you look into this. Lets keep it 5 paras. Give me a few minutes to clean up something though.I will be reading on Language/Education todayDineshkannambadi 00:46, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Do strikeouts to whatever you feel unnecessary. Other places if you can crunch words, do that.

Then we can evaluate.Dineshkannambadi 00:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

If I did not trust you, I may not have asked you:)Dineshkannambadi 01:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Thats a start. we need to reduce Economy such that its total length is only upto what is currently citation#75 or worst case #79. (in total length I mean). Society can be as long as what is citation#119 currently, whcih means just compression wont do.Dineshkannambadi 02:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

A barnstar for you :)

		The Copyeditor's Barnstar
		Great work on Dinesh's articles. You deserve this one. :) Sarvagnya 10:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Going to add a comment to Rashtrakuta. Is that ok?Dineshkannambadi 17:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead.Dineshkannambadi 18:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Lets sit back a day and bask. The language section in Rashtrakuta needs to be done by me.

I am waiting or the maps from user:planemad. The next two articles Kadamba Dynasty and Western Ganga Dynasty needs much work. I have excellent material and books. Just takes time to read up, understand and compile. I dont have an images for Kadambas. Considering their temples are in remote places in Karnataka(and really ancient towns known more locally than nationaly like Banavasi, Talagunda) it unlikely we will find any in wiki. For Gangas there should be a few images from Shravanabelagola, I saw a few on your user page. I received a complimentary email from one Nikhil Verma (not from Karnataka) who is currently working in Banglaore. He said he loves architecture and travels for it. He was impressed with the Balligavi and Kambadahalli pages. I will ask him for images.Dineshkannambadi 02:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

BTW, Rashtrakuta society and Economy looks good now. I will complete Language and expand on Administration tommorow and day after.Dineshkannambadi 02:51, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for adding my pics

To White Springs and Welaka, that is. I was doing them for the NRHP Wikiproject, but I guess they could be used as well for the cities. I didn't add any to Fort Cooper 'cause... I think I forgot. Thanks again! :) --Ebyabe 19:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey, there's bucketloads more where that came from. See Commons:Category:Registered Historic Places in Florida. I'm trying to get pics of every site in Florida, and there's folks in other parts of the state helping, so it ain't just me. I keep track of what's left to do here. Have fun! --Ebyabe 19:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The search function isn't always that great on the commons. That's why I categorize the hell out of any pics I add. You'll see what I mean if you go to the category I mentioned above. I even subsectioned it by county, and in some cases city. Thanks for reminding me of something, btw. I did a major reorg of my galleries, and I don't think I put the userpage category at the bottom of all the new pages. Oh well, something else to do. If you need any advice on using the commons though, drop me a line, and I can share what meager bits I've managed to gather. Cheerio! --Ebyabe 19:39, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Click on the "Commons" link above; it should take you right there. --Ebyabe 19:59, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Rashtrakuta-->I have added a section for Language. please take a look. As and when I find new info, I will add it.Dineshkannambadi 02:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Rashtrakuta

What do you think of the map. The capital Manyakheta is not clearly depicted I feel. I will work on the subarticle The great Karnataka Expansion tonight and tommorow. Then go for DYK. Perhaps we should rename this "Age of Imperial Karnataka" (because its been called so by a historian).What do you think? After that I will look into branches and descendent stubs.Dineshkannambadi 18:05, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, it started out as conquer but later became cultural and architectural.

Many kingdoms were created by Kannada dynasties in various parts of India. This is why Kamath calls it age of "imperial Karnataka". In addition devotional movements such as Virashaivaism later came from here.Dineshkannambadi 18:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Haven't done much today actually.Dineshkannambadi 02:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I actually started off on a new article that we discussed earlier this day. Than stopped half way. And was just surfing around. Now time to hit the hay.ByeDineshkannambadi 03:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Kama Sutra

Greetings. I notice that you have helped with vandal cleanups and editing on the Kama Sutra article. I recently proposed removal of the detailed chapter titles, which are not reliably sourced, as a step to reduce the juvenile interest in this article (See: Talk:Kama_Sutra#Chapter_titles_can_be_removed). I am wondering if you would support such a step? My suggestion has gotten no feedback and I hesitate to just edit the titles out without having at least one supporter for the idea. Buddhipriya 21:13, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

You have mail.Dineshkannambadi 00:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Or wait till tommorow and see the whole file to copy edit. Thats better I think.Dineshkannambadi 00:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Just a trial. I dont understand "your box" method.Dineshkannambadi 01:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

How does a "Age of Imperial Karnataka" FA sound to you. Throwing in a few good maps, a few neat inscriptions images, a few friezes and sculptures. What do you think?Dineshkannambadi 15:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

The Box is good, but is it secure? Normally you want to use the box if you feel you dont want to be disturbed and dont rely on the "inuse" tag to prevent inbetween vandalism and such.

Also, I am thinking, I will forward what I have put together tonight before I leave for the weekend. Hopefully it wont be difficult to copy it into the box and then copy edit. I will try to make sure that the citations are in order (I mean the syntax). If there is anything that can cause gross jumble up's in the page is wrong syntax on inline citations. But I am sure you can handle that.Dineshkannambadi 15:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

The idea on the article is

Early Native Kingdoms

Kadambas/Gangas

Start of Imperialism

Chalukyas

South conquers North

Rashtrakutas

Domination of the Deccan

Western Chalukyas

Hegemony over southern Deccan

Hoysalas

Consolidation of the Peninisula

Vijayanagara Empire

Post Vijayanagara

Post Vijayanagara Empire

Birth of Modern Karnataka

Independence and reorg of states

How does this look.Dineshkannambadi 15:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead and use your box.Dineshkannambadi 15:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok.Maybe I should not be paranoid as the phrase is used by a historian.Dineshkannambadi 16:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

No survey exists

I just went to the mastercard link I posted and I didn't see any survey. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheSecretFile (talk • contribs) 22:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

Oops

my signature for the last post:

~TheSecretFile

you have emailDineshkannambadi 23:25, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Are you there?Dineshkannambadi 00:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I saw your User:Mattisse/BoxD. Why dont you plop in the email I sent you into this one. Or do you want me to do it?Dineshkannambadi 01:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok I am uploading now.It will take some time.Dineshkannambadi 01:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

With some 80 citations, does not look like a DYK!! Any way we will see. You are going to be shocked at my atrocious spellings in places. I was typing hard. As far as the reference books are concerned, they are all in my user page.Dineshkannambadi 01:52, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Just reliased, in none of the paragrahs have I explained the period of the rule of each kingdom.We have time. By end of next week we should get this ready as a first pass. During that time, Rashtrakuta will slide into Peer review.Dineshkannambadi 01:55, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

For pleasure. Taking the family out to Pennsylvania for spring break. No break for you?Dineshkannambadi 02:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at Sarvagnya's user page. He has an image of a nice tiled roof home.

Also look at Bhadravati I think there was a nice picture there. I will look into my albums and see. I can give you some images of a log homes in wildlife Sanctuaries I have visited, but they are modern cottages built in olden style. Let me look around.Dineshkannambadi 03:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Vattaparai Falls

Thank you for the effort but, Everything in this article in wrong except that it is in Kanyakumari district. You should correct it or remove it. I will remove the link to it on Palani Hills National Park-Marcus 07:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

AMA sock

Hello Mattisse! Thank you very much for all the evidences you presented. I've read it and now I am indeed convinced that these editors are indeed sockpuppets and did many of disruptive editing. Sorry for my questioning before. However, in these pages I did not see a single trace of AMA's involvement, can you point out which passage was written by AMA advocate? Sorry if it gives you trouble, but thanks! Wooyi 15:00, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you!

Thanks again, and I have to say I'm sorry again for giving you so much trouble on the AMA case. I've read the evidences further, and I will look for further records myself and review them. Certainly, I agree that knowingly advocating an obvious troll/sock/vandal is reckless and irresponsible. As myself has been editted articles on politics/law, I've confronted numerous vandals/disruptive users. Again, thanks! Here is a barnstar for your efforts to investigate in this case. Wooyi 15:43, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

		The Barnstar of Diligence
		I, Wooyi, hereby award Mattisse this Barnstar of Diligence for his diligent investigation on the AMA MfD case and the past misuse of AMA by disruptive users. Wooyi 15:43, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Photo

Hi! I saw your talk in Dinesh Kannambadi's page and went to that article Indian vernacular architecture. The scope of the article is very good. I shall try if I can get some more photos of the rural buildings of India. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:28, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

The sockpuppet controversy of paganism

I just read it, and it was indeed painstaking to get all these straight. Not long ago I've seen the arbitration committee has "admonished" User:Rosencomet on a case, hopefully he wouldn't start it all over again. Regarding to the AMA thing, I have stated there, that I will not object the shutdown of that project, if the proposed "editor assistance" (which will not "advocate" for disruptive users) is to be established. I think this thing should be over now, and it is time to move on. Thank you for all the work again! Anyways, just btw, who was User:WeniWidiWiki that was quoted? Just asking. Happy editing! Wooyi 00:27, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Also in that one the principal perpetrator of disruption is User:Ekajati, seems like he is both an expert in paganism and wikipedia insider knowledge who runs a sock chain and all of its progeny. Wooyi 00:36, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Apart from the rest of the saga, I find this edit rather subtle and interesting, showing Ekajati isn't the normal dumb kind of puppeteer, that he actually tried to establish a difference from his suspected socks. Happy editing! Wooyi 01:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Salix alba has had a soft stop for Ekajati all along. I can't complain as he has for me too since last August and has helped me out greatly. Go figure. That is one of the interesting aspects of all this -- the psychological connections. Why people supported me when for a brief time I did have people operating sock puppets on my computer. I appreciate you and your quickness of comprehension. You are not average and I would trust your judgment regarding AMA. Sincerely, Mattisse 01:21, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your work on the case as well. It's getting very long now. No matter what the outcome is, we all should keep this issue debate reasonable and civil. Happy editing! Wooyi 03:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The AMA

I've replied to your comments in the AMA MfD. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 13:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

You've certainly explained the reasons for your viewpoint clearly and civilly, and I commend you for that. I have several responses:

• I can understand your feelings about the case you mentioned - the advocate in question certainly stepped over the line in asking another user to e-mail him to get "the sad story" about you, and behaved unprofessionally in congratulating his/her advocee. I also looked into some of the diffs you provided and the records of the case, and it looks like you were subjected to continued harassment by several users. So I sympathise.
• However, all I can do is repeat my statement earlier; no system on Wikipedia, or indeed the real world, works perfectly. Yes, there are bad advocates. There are also bad admins, bad mediators, and so on; every system on Wikipedia has flaws. But that doesn't mean the system is inherently bad.
• I'd have to say, however, that the major problem with AMA is the lack of entry requirements for advocates, and the lack of training. When I joined the AMA, no one gave me any instructions, checked into my record on Wikipedia, or asked me anything about policy; I just went in at the deep end by taking on a case, and handled it largely by using common sense and diplomacy. Given that situation, I'm not surprised that there's a fairly high percentage of inexperienced and/or incompetent advocates, compared to other positions on Wikipedia. However, I don't think that's a good reason to delete the whole thing. Maybe it needs restructuring, with some kind of entry requirements for advocates (say, 1000 edits and a clean record), clearer rules, and a training programme to ensure that advocates follow WP policy. If you argued for that, I'd support you. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 16:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Re AMA Suggestions

A first draft of a new framework for the AMA might be as follows:

• Anyone joining the AMA must have at least 500 edits, and a clean record of editing with no blocks.
• All new advocates should work alongside an experienced advocate in their first case, rather than taking a case on their own. This will allow them to get to know the procedures.
• A Handbook for Advocates will be put together, with specific guidelines for how to resolve disputes.
• There will no longer be an "advocate-advocee" special relationship. The advocate should communicate with other users involved in the dispute as well as their advocee, and should attempt to resolve matters through acting as a civil intermediary.
• Advocates should be strongly discouraged from communicating with their advocees through e-mail, IRC, or any other off-wiki channel. I've never felt the need to do this myself, and it's better that all advocate-advocee correspondence should be available for viewing by the whole community.
• Advocates should not be set against each other. As such, someone named as a participant in a dispute cannot open a separate request for assistance on the same dispute. Instead, the advocate already working on the case should make an effort to hear both sides' arguments.
• In cases where help has been sought with an arbitration case, a team of at least two advocates will work on the case. Only experienced advocates will be allowed to work on arbitration cases.

I may propose this on the MfD page. Obviously it's only an initial draft and will be altered, but I think it addresses all the problems with the AMA. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 18:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

RE AMA suggestions (continued)

I apologise, I didn't mean to alienate you, nor to give the appearance that we advocates "seem vested in [our] own point of view rather than doing a professional job". Although I can't speak for other advocates, I know I try my hardest to be professional, and will always accept criticism. I would respond to your points as follows:

• You're right that 500 edits is quite low, but 5000 is massively high - I've been here more than a year, and an advocate since November, and my editcount is somewhere around 3900. I borrowed the 500 threshold from WP:ADOPT, but on reflection you may be right that around 1000-1500 would be a better figure. As for mainspace vs. talk page contribs, that should probably be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. I don't really want to make it too difficult to become an advocate, else few people will bother to do it at all; it's hardly a position of authority.
• A formal internship period would be a good idea - would you prefer that this be for a fixed period of time, or across the new advocate's first couple of cases?
• As to a "renegade mentality", I haven't seen too many things like that, but the term could certainly be applied to some of the diffs you provided earlier of advocate misbehaviour. I think that the no-secrecy idea would solve that to a certain extent; it would reduce the threat of Wikilawyering and fighting your advocee's corner. However, I certainly wouldn't advocate banning off-wiki communications (how would we enforce that anyway?), just discouraging them.

You say you don't want to get any more involved in this dispute, which is fair enough; I'm certainly not trying to browbeat you into agreeing with me. I'm just disappointed that the AMA, an organisation which I belong to and believe in, has let you down and alienated you in such a big way, and I really want to make amends and resolve the situation. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 19:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

On WP:ADOPT, I don't think you really need that service - you're well-established here, while adoption is really for newbies who need some help getting to know how Wikipedia works. But in terms of the AMA (and in general), I don't think it's fair to judge users on editcount alone; some users might have a high editcount due to lots of minor edits and vandalism reverts, while others might have fewer edits but more awareness of policy and dispute resolution. (By the way, I'm quite impressed that you've got 20,000 edits in eleven months. Do you use VandalProof?) As to your second point, I agree that there don't seem to be any serious reform proposals going forward for the AMA. The MfD closed today with no consensus; the only solid outcome seems to have been that MfD was an inappropriate forum for discussing the AMA's need for reform. However, the proposal at Wikipedia:Editor assistance still seems to be active; if it becomes a significant project, I may move there from the AMA. Its mission statement seems to clear up some of the problems with the AMA ethos (e.g. fighting your advocee's corner). Would you consider it an acceptable alternative to the AMA? Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 16:18, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course I'd be willing to discuss things with you, if it would be helpful. Although I have far fewer edits than you (I'm hoping to chalk up my 4,000th today), I do have quite a lot of experience with Wikipolicy and the complicated (and ever-growing) community side of Wikipedia. In terms of wikijargon, you seem to be more "exopedian", while I'm more "metapedian". So I'd be happy to give you any advice I can. As to the past situation you mentioned, if it was the one involving User:SDas and Jagannath Temple (Puri), then that was me. In response to your assertion that you haven't seen any instances of AMA being useful, I would have to disagree based on my own experience. Thinking back over my past cases, the users in question most often just need a reminder to read WP:ATT and source all of their controversial edits. Only one case (my first one) turned out to be impossible to resolve amicably, and in that one the involved parties voluntarily disengaged. As to the Arbitrators, I'd agree with you that they tend to be fair and reasonable, and less combative than advocates. I think that the source of that is in the selection process; bear in mind that anyone who even stands for election to the Arbcom must be an admin in good standing with long experience in civil dispute-resolution. Advocates, on the other hand, aren't necessarily more experienced or mature than any of us; we even had a case of one advocate (who I won't name) who was actually asked to leave the AMA because he himself had been blocked repeatedly for getting into disputes! The trouble is that the AMA is a voluntary organisation, and its members don't receive any extra power or status, unlike Arbitrators. So we can't really expect the same standards. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 17:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I've looked at the case file and some of the posts you and Steve Caruso left at WT:AMA, and I have to say that this looks like a very unusual and complex case - I've never before seen a case file where the advocee's request to close the case was actually rejected, and I can't see any good reason why Steve should have done that; nor do I understand exactly why he's kept the case open when it's already been addressed by ArbCom. It also looks (to me as an outside observer) like the Co-ordinator was being mildly uncivil to you, although he did allude to having had e-mail correspondence with you, which obviously I don't know about. Basically I don't know the background to this case, and I wouldn't want to get involved, so I can't really give you any better advice on how to discuss this with him. The best advice I can give you is to disengage from the whole thing for the time being; don't contact anyone connected with the case, and just see what happens. What I wouldn't want is for you to become alienated from Wikipedia because of this; based on your record and your awards, you're one of the most prolific and hardworking article-writers, and lots of users appreciate the work you do here. It isn't worth letting your wiki-life get ruined over one single dispute. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 18:45, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Are you there?Dineshkannambadi 00:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

sorry about all the confusion. The stuff in boxD is the latest and greatest. I cut and paste this before I left on the holiday and sent you email about that/or mentionde on this user page.Dineshkannambadi 00:52, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Which article, sandbox2 or BoxD?Dineshkannambadi 01:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

No problem. Let me add content now. BTW, in Penn we visited Gettysburg, the battle ground. Had a 3 hour personalised tour. My son enjoyed it thoroughly. The guide was stunned when I mentioned that virgals were made even for dogs in India and quoted the 10th century Ganga virgal, when he was talking about a monument a regiment made for

a faithful dog.Dineshkannambadi 01:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Not a problem. Forget about Playbox2. BoxD is in.Dineshkannambadi 01:20, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Empty Playbox2.Dineshkannambadi 01:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I have been in comm with a guy in Bangalore (my home town) who is really serious about medieval architecture. he is going to send over lots of images of Gangas from Shravanabelagola and Manne including inscriptions, sculptures, friezes etc. He saw my article on Balligavi and Kambadahalli and wrote to me.Dineshkannambadi 02:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

You forget, I can walk on hot coals too and sleep on a bed of nails.Dineshkannambadi 02:20, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Once you leave the visitor centre, it becomes ok. Lots of school kids who dont care about history. I loved history as a school kid. In fact I topped the class in history, not Math. Math and science came later, out of peer pressure.Dineshkannambadi 02:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I have mentioned about the Virgal for the Hound of a Ganga king in the "Rashtrakuta Society" towards the end.Dineshkannambadi 02:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Very discouraging interation with AMA - may take work break for a while

While you were gone I got exposed to the Wikipedia community again. You are back but the bad feeling lingers. I wonder if it is good that you are putting such effort here -- that Wikipedia is taking advantage of people like you who work hard and honestly on articles. I realised from AMA that so many of the people here care nothing about the articles at all but only with their own power plays. Is is very discouraging. I will try to work on Box in afternoon. Sincerely, Mattisse 14:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I keep getting email messages from you but there is nothing in them. Maybe I can't figure out my own email anymore. One of my messages to you was returned as undeliverable. Maybe a vandal has changed my email address again. Discouraged, --Mattisse 15:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Please stop harassing the AMA

Matisse, you have not ceased taking jabs at the AMA or posting comments that harass or belittle its members or processes as we are going through an important period of self-reflection. Do not disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point. Please be civil, assume good faith, and let us take the necessary time to do what we need to do unhindered. Thank you. אמר Steve Caruso _(desk/AMA) • Give Back Our Membership! 15:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply

Hi Mattisse, sorry I've taken so long to reply to the message you left yesterday on my talkpage. Seriously, don't be discouraged by the whole thing. I totally agree that there have been a lot of problems and conflicts on Wikipedia lately in a very short space of time. But while the community as a whole may sometimes seem short-tempered, short-sighted and bureaucratic, there are lots of us on Wikipedia who do care, and do value your contributions. As I said before, the best advice I can possibly give you is to disengage from the whole AMA/Starwood thing. None of us want to cause you any further stress about this case; from what I can see, it wasn't your fault at all that you got involved in it. So probably best for you to concentrate on the other things on Wikipedia that interest you, and forget this whole tangled mess. I don't know what else to say, so I'll say it with a smile... Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 17:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

D is about Hoysalas, E is about Vijayanagara Empire.Dineshkannambadi 20:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Eventually, All these alphabets will go away as you may have guessed. We will eventually put these empires in "eras" rather than give it Empire subheadings. we should remove the alphabets tommorow or day after and give it real headings. Dont bother about reference citations.Dineshkannambadi 20:26, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Misunderstanding. Sorry!. If you were talking about the Rashtrakuta Dynasty article, go ahead and alphabetize the references. Please do so for Western Chalukya Empire also if you have time. I misunderstood. Disregard my previous message. I though you were asking about BoxD stuff.Dineshkannambadi 20:39, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I am working on BoxD.One hour. ThanksDineshkannambadi 22:10, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

he felt there were not enough images. we can find some on Elaphanta and Ellora.Dineshkannambadi 22:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Only inage #3 is clearly the Kailasanatha temple. Others may not be, so cant use others. There are a couple of good ones in Ellora page itself. Look for Trimurthi (3 faced Shiva-Vishnu-Brahma) sculpture or the Garuda sculpture which is there emblem in Elephants caves.Dineshkannambadi 22:51, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Can you check in your architecture book if any other monument in Ellora is surely there art. I will check my book too.Dineshkannambadi 23:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Use only those images that are surely Rashtrakuta built or by a feudatory if worst comes to worse. I chose images (roof sculptures) from Gangas as they patronised Jainsim under the Rashtrakuta umbrella. Once I get more Rashtrakuta images from Kuknur, Pattadakal, I will remove the Ganga image from Kambadahalli.Dineshkannambadi 23:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Looks like we have plenty. On the LHS, the top and bottom image and on the RHS, the 3rd one and the wall sculpture. What do you think?. we can actually remove the existing images in the Architecture section of Rashtrakuta page (or perhaps remove one and move one to Language section). If you find the Trimurthi I mentioned from Elephant cave, we can remove both Ganga Images from the Arch section.Dineshkannambadi 23:32, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I have completed section c and d in boxD.Dineshkannambadi 23:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes. One Ganga image in the arch section can go as it are not as important as Ellora.Dineshkannambadi 23:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I have commented out the two images in the Arch section.Dineshkannambadi 00:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

We really need to find the Kasiviswanatha temple and Jain Narayana temple at Pattadakal. These are 8th century Rashtrakuta temples in Karnataka and are both UNESCO World Heritage sites, like Ellora and unique examples of their stand alone art as opposed to Ellora which is rock cut.Dineshkannambadi 00:42, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I have images of Kasiviswanatha temple along with a Chalukya Mallikarjuna temple in the Chalukya Dynasty page, but not by itself.Dineshkannambadi 00:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

In Pattadakal page, only the left image and that too the left temple is Rashtrakuta. All others are Chalukya. I would have preferred the Kasi Vishvanatha temple alone. See citation#138 in Rashtrakuta page. That is the Jain Narayana temple.Dineshkannambadi 00:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

No. Kasivishvanatha and Kailashanatha are two seperate temples. The first one is at Pattadakal and I have found that image sent by my friend. Will upload it. The second is at Ellora as you know. Did you see citation#138 in the Arch section.Thats is the Jain Narayana temple.[6]Dineshkannambadi 00:56, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I know Kailasanatha in Ellora is the greatest, but focussing on just temple would be boaring and not right. I feel we should bring out their rock cut, Stand alone, Jain, Hindu etc all to the reader.Dineshkannambadi 01:01, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Which one looks wrong, the Jain cave temple?Dineshkannambadi 01:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I am confused. Can you put that image on my talk page?Dineshkannambadi 01:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you tried standup comedy.Dineshkannambadi 01:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The right side seems like Kasivishvanatha temple, the left is Mallikarjuna (built by Chalukyas). This is a good verification.[7]

This is good site in general.[8]Dineshkannambadi 01:35, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

But you are right. We should not use visual judjement here.I have not been to Pattadakal, so better not specualte.Dineshkannambadi 01:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I have promised myself that I am going to write an article on "Rashtrakuta architecture in Karnataka". I am not being sub-nationalistic, but their art outside Ellora does not get too much recognition other the temples at Pattadakal. Even the Navalinga temples at Kuknur in Karnataka (Nine temples in a row) became a national monument recently.I am visitng this place this year. There are scores of their temples in north Karnataka which are mostly state monuments.

Ofcourse, Western Chalukya architecture is very much on the cards. In Karnataka, even the fabulous Western Chalukya art gets sidelined (unfortunately) compared to the Badami Chalukya, Hoysala and Vijayanagara art in Karnataka, though every historian/architect knows their was the conceptual link as we described in that article. Once India becomes more rich, things will change, I want my article to be a catalyst of that change, if possibleDineshkannambadi 01:51, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Now I will watch TV with the family for a whileDineshkannambadi 02:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

You will be surprised. I have been watching western's since I was a kid on TV . I mean John Wayne, Clint Eastwood etc. I have read more Louis L'mour than most. I always admired the horses, the outdoors etc.So I did learn something about how America was won or lost (depending..)Dineshkannambadi 02:17, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually I immensely enjoy Chip design too. It would be impossible to stay in a profession for 16 years if I did not enjoy it. Perhaps different parts of my brain needs different things to work on, like a true Gemini.

P.S. My wife swears I am two faced and her dad too:)Dineshkannambadi 02:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I mean he is a Gemini too.Dineshkannambadi 02:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The way I see it, if the boxD is going to be about political history of Medieval Karnataka, I need to mention about the minor native feudatories who

have contributed richly to local culture (i read somewhere that while major kingdoms were often bringing in external influences by way of invasions, martial ties etc, it was the local kingdoms who kept the local cutltures alive.). If boxd is going to be about Imperial Karnataka, then we just need to stick to Major Empires and external kingdoms created by immigrants from Karnataka.How does that sound. I saw the dashed lines in boxd and figured you felt there is no need to discuss about Kannada literature there. You are right. If we are discussing purely about political history, no need for literature, or for that matter architecture, though often architecture is directly linked to political expansion also.Dineshkannambadi 15:51, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

RE User page

Interesting question. (I notice you're a psychologist by profession, so maybe I shouldn't be surprised...) I wasn't sure what aspect of my userpage you were asking about, but I'd probably answer your question as follows:

• Most of the userboxes are about Wikipedia tasks which I do, or Wikipedia projects which I'm part of; however, I use the ones on the right-hand column (as you can see) to advertise my political views. Although I always uphold NPOV in my edits, I'm not ashamed to admit that I do have a very strong right-wing political stance, which is a big part of my character and personality. So yes, that could be seen as reflective of me.
• The chaotic layout reflects the fact that I'm disorganised, rather unskilled with wiki markup, and that I'm more interested in editing than creating a pretty userpage. I must also admit to a certain amount of vanity, however, in that I don't move my barnstars to a subpage because I like people to see them. :)
• I don't know why I bother with the Babel tag - the only foreign language I'm fluent in is Spanish, and there are plenty of Wikipedians who can do English-Spanish translations much better than I can. Again just vanity, I guess.
• I keep thinking I should get around to creating a better userpage - but mainspace edits are more of a priority, and some editors have been criticised lately for spending too much time editing userspace.

As to my userpage being "unusual", I'd say more "badly-designed" than "unusual", since, as mentioned above, I'm very bad at wiki-markup and spend little time on my userspace. I hope that answers your question adequately - like I said, I'm not quite sure what you were asking about. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 16:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

There's quite a few other conservative pages actually - see Category:Conservative Wikipedians. As for feeling safe within myself, I'd never really thought about it that way - but, then again, I'm not a psychologist. :) Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 16:42, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Across the country by car/van/wagon/bike?. Sounds great. I have not exactly Phoo-Phooed your book, I dont have that kind of knowledge. Actually Gerard Foekema does mention that the technology and knowhow to build the intricate Hoysala temples already existed in the plains and got patronage from the Hoysala Kings who came swooping down from the hills. Yes I agree that

empires were built by scores of people, not just the kings. But we cant write an article on an empire and give credit to unknown guilds (unknown from the literature point of view), especially when most medieval artists remained anonymous (with the exception of Hoysala artists). In the Hoysala architecture section, at the bottom where we talk of architects and sculptors, I have brought this to light where I mention the temples were built not only by sculptors and architects but also goldsmiths, ivory carvers etc who possibly worked with the sculptors in working out intricate ornamentation etc. But all this is for you and me and our persuit of Knowledge. I dont know how far we can elaborate on that and make the article on an empire concise and readable.

Regarding the minor feudatories, From what I have read, seems often famous poets and scholars received early patronage from these fuedatories and eventually ended up writing great classic in the courts of their overlords. The feudatories may have acted as a sieve, weeding out mediocre talent and letting the top guys pass thru. This is why I want to write a detailed artcle on "Minor Kingdoms of Karnataka". For this I will have to travel to the state monuments, small villages etc. Not much literature about them is available. I had one book by that same name by Dr. Venkatesh but returned it back to Barnes and Nobles. At some point I will reorder it from Vedams Books.Dineshkannambadi 17:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Good question. I will get back to you a little later.Dineshkannambadi 19:32, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I realise it looks like the BoxD is going no where. But it will in a few days.

I just need to get my thoughts together, bring in a few more guys for a discussion and that will help. All the 5 FA's we have and the Rashtrakuta dynasty did not happen overnight either. I have been working on those since Aug 2005. Ofcourse then I was new to wiki, did not know the basics of how to write an article (I am not an expert now, but better off), had to face many many edit battles (not one of my tormentors have survived), I have all the books now and we are working well as a team (given out differences). So I dont think we should fret over the shape of the article. I dont want to bring an article to peer review in a hurry and be told it does fit the standards expected of a FA. I am ordering a few more books shortly. Future articles will be

Kadamba Dynasty, Western Ganga Dynasty (I will get good images from an Indian guy), Seuna Yadavas of Devagiri (this was an article I created and was later expanded by others, but became a hornets nest and caused much of the animosity in some users against me), Kalachuri (Southern). All this plus architecture articles on all the Kingdoms I have worked on. Overall it looks we are booked for the next 2 years.Dineshkannambadi 21:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

yes, Kailasanatha and Kailas temple are the same. But yesterday we were discussing about Kasiviswanatha (or Kasivisveshwara) temple and the Kailasanatha (or Kailasa) temple which are different.Dineshkannambadi 21:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Dont let the names confuse you. They sound similar to the western reader.Dineshkannambadi 21:28, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

But yesterday we were discussing about Kasiviswanatha (or Kasivisveshwara) temple and the Kailasanatha (or Kailasa) temple which are different." Are you sure????

Yes

Also, I am 99.9999999999999 percent sure the Rashtrakuta Dynasty built at least one Jain temple at Ellora.

So we keep the Jain temple image from Ellora which is in the main page

As far as the Box, don't fret about it as it will come together. Sometimes you have to write some in the wrong direction (I'm not saying that is what you are doing) but the creative process is such that you have to feel your way through it.

You are right

But I do wish I knew what your master two-year plan is.

the 4 Kingdoms I mentioned in the pervious message + 9 architecture articles excluding Hoysala architecture which is done + History of Karnataka + Political Expansion (our BoxD)+ 20 DYK's (goal). Hows that for a plan?Dineshkannambadi 21:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

You have mail.Dineshkannambadi 21:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Indian rock-cut architecture

Ofcourse I will help. First glance (I will scan and email you the pages if you want for your reference)

1."Later rock-cut cave architecture became more sophisticated as in the Ellora Caves, culminating ultimately the monolithic Kailash Temple. After this, rock-cut architecture became structural in nature, made from rocks cut into bricks and built as free standing constructions".

Contradicts

There is no timeline that divides the creation of rock-cut temples and free-standing temples built with cut stone as they developed in parallel. The building free-standing structures began in 5th century, while rock cut temples continued to be excavated until the 12th century. An example is the Shore Temple.[14]

Stand alone temples (even though they were built to resemble Buddhist chaitya's) have flourished in Karnataka and elsewhere since the 5th century (from memory). The earliest Kadamba Basadi at Halasi perhaps unrelated to rock cut or cave idiom is from ~470 CE. There are early Chalukya temples even from their rule as subordinates of Kadambas from 5th century (Meguti temple I think which If i remember resembles a buddhist Chaitya).

In short the transition from Cave temples-->stand alone and Rock cut sees much overlap. In fact the Ellora Rock cut is contemporeneous with their Kasiviwanatha stand alone temple at Pattadakal Dineshkannambadi 00:16, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Was this a DYK at one point?Dineshkannambadi 00:46, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

If it was not, may be you should nominate it. (if you have significantly expanded it or altered it in the last 5 days). One way to do that is to add info on some of the topics there lie Badami caves, or Mahaballipuram temples etc.Dineshkannambadi 01:19, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I am confident you are going to find plenty (to put it lightly) of opportunity to explore and widen your wisdom by the time we are done with all the FA's. These FA's usually crop up topics that will interest you from your own angle too.Dineshkannambadi 01:46, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually its not that I dont want help you or that I am too busy. Its just I hardly know about the topic you are writing about. What ever I know, you also know because we are both refering to books (rock cut arch). With Hoysala architecture its different. I have visited 15 temples, some multiple times. I understand friezes, brackets, late turned pillars, mantapa, Sukanasi (I have been on top of one), Shilabalika etc etc. I write about it from the books I source from, as I have seen it and experienced it, which makes it easier. This is why I would prefer not to write about Western Chalukya arch. untill I visit more of their temples (I have been to two) though the fact that the Hoysals used some of their styles makes it easier

to understand and tempting to write about (once I receive images from Nikhil Varma - Temple in Bagali).Dineshkannambadi 17:56, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

When is your trip. By the time you get back I can have significant work done and ready for close examination.Dineshkannambadi 21:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

You are not planning on leaving wiki , are you?Dineshkannambadi 23:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I am glad.Dineshkannambadi 23:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Outside wiki, they are in my CD's and albums. Inside wiki they are in GDFL self made images section. Look at the Keladi Nayaka page or Shimoga district page. Is that is what you mean by horse shoe arch window?Dineshkannambadi 23:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Created Political history of medieval Karnataka. Dont delete BoxD yet.Dineshkannambadi 23:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Drive with regards to?Dineshkannambadi 01:42, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

You have email, unless you already read it.Dineshkannambadi 12

44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello

Mattisse, Steve has not made a personal attack on you. He simply requested that you stop harassing the AMA and follow Wiki guidelines. Some of your comments have been taken by various Wikipedians to be uncivil (such as calling the AMA and by extenetion its members a ockpuppet enabling service). Just keep this in mind please for future interaction on the wiki. Cheers! Æon ^{Insanity Now!} _{Give Back Our Membership!} 23:03, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

My main one is fine as the other talk pages are for more speicalised discussion when neeed. I will have to point out that the overall comment to me doesnot seem like a persoal attack more likea blunt statemet of his opinion (At least that is how I would take it). One of the best things to do on Wikipedia is to assume that the wikipedian is acting in good faith (unless it is crystal clear that they are behanving in a manner that is agaist Wiki policy and in that case it is best ot ask them to stop (which in this case (Not not involved and don't want to be really I just want to prevent this from becoming heated) and if it continues go to WP:AN/I which you cna request SYSOP action.) Now he could have worded it better I will admit( I was unaware of the other comment I was comenting on the one left on his talk page) but to me (and again this is how I would have taken it) as a more blunt statement and not an attack. Sometimes people will make a statement in the heat of the moment and word it the wrong way which leads to further misunderstanding which leads to further issues.

Now with that said, are you still having issues in regaurds to your case? Æon ^{Insanity Now!} _{Give Back Our Membership!} 00:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

We seem to have a slight misunderstanding in regards to Steve but that is ok I don't mind but for the record I was only giving my take on it to help defuse a brewing issue (I would hate to see either of you blocked for that). In regards to the sockpuppets looks like they were all caught and banned if not let me know which ones and I will notify the appropriate Wikipeidans and have then check out for you. I will also contact Steve about your case and ask about it (note if you to are having an issue with him I would recommend that you file a MEDCAB case and hash things out that way before getting admins involved, I have always found him to be reasonable and usually fair minded (if it looks like things are going down hill you can bring an admin in then) Now looking at the ArbCom case looks like they resolved the issues over the starwood case, is there any additional issues in regards to that or your AMA case this that need to be addressed or advice given about it? (When I take an Advocee on I usually only advise the member and explain the policies. I have noticed that 99% of the time it is mostly confusion over how the policies apply to what is going on, I also help with the DR process helping members to file and such (I do not get involved directly with ArbCom or MEDCAB/COM as I see it as bad form for me as an Advocate to stick my big nose in to their business where it doesn't really belong ;) )). Æon ^{Insanity Now!} _{Give Back Our Membership!} 05:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Mattise, I don't think An/I is a way to go I recomend MEDCAB or simply asking Steve to close your case. Sometimes it is better to walk away from it. Æon ^{Insanity Now!} _{Give Back Our Membership!} 16:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

re:Please stop making personal attacks on me

Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. As a warning to you. And I will leave AMA alone. I would especially appreciate if you would finish the "investigation" of my case and close it, although I realise you are quite busy right now. I will be understanding if you take a little while to do so. Sincerely, --Mattisse 15:03, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Matisse, it is considered harassment to post a warning template in response to a request to stop certain behaviors. Please produce these personal attacks or remove this template. אמר Steve Caruso _(desk/AMA) • Give Back Our Membership! 14:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I am currently looking for another Advocate for you who is willing to take on your Case. Once I find one who accepts and post here on your talk page that you are all set, I wish to be left alone and not contacted by you further under any circumstances:

1. Please do not post to my talk page.
2. Please do not email me.
3. Please do not IM me.
4. Please do not call me.
5. Please do not write to me.
6. Please do not communicate with me via another method unmentioned above.

I will assume that any such communication is a violation of this request and will constitute harassment. Thank you. אמר Steve Caruso _(desk/AMA) • Give Back Our Membership! 15:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok it seems that the situation is getting out of hand, I would recomend that both of you refrain for posting on one another talk page. Æon ^{Insanity Now!} _{Give Back Our Membership!} 16:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Also I have review all of Steve's last posts. Those were not personal attacks but blunt statements taken out of context (Again not taking sides here and just posting my view on it). I would seriously recomend before a SYSOP has to get involved (becuase I beleve that both of your actions recently are starting to cross the line which will result in both of you being blocked). Please take this to heart, sometimes what one sas is taken in a spirit that was not intended and I have known and worked with Steve on the Wiki and have never seen or heard of him making a personal attack.

Also your case has been closed and several advocates have been asked to pick it up. Please be patient while they consider the request. Æon ^{Insanity Now!} _{Give Back Our Membership!} 17:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I never said that you were but your recent conduct such as posting a unjustified warning template when all he asked was for you so cease (whether you were or not) making personal attacks. That was an inapproate thing to do which cuase the situation to escalate needlessly. The best thing to do is to be and let be or request mediation. Many have complained of difficulty (Note I'm not calling you difficult and I donot wish to be involved in that issue.) in dealing with you so it might be best to give the matter a rest. Æon ^{Insanity Now!} _{Give Back Our Membership!} 21:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's try this again

Extending the olive branch

I realize that there has been quite a bit of bad blood between us, so I hope that I can make my intentions clear. I do not wish for there to be any animosity between us. I do not think that you are a "bad person" as first and foremostly I do not know you personally. When I originally looked into your initial email request it was out of genuine concern and want to help. I admit that our correspondence in the past and as of late has left us both flustered, and frustrated on many levels for many reasons; however, for many more reasons too numerous to list I can see that it would be better to look beyond the past problems, calm down, and give things a fresh go. It was certainly not my intentions to cause you any distress, and for that I apologize.

Will you accept this small token as a gesture of peace? אמר Steve Caruso _(desk/AMA) • Give Back Our Membership! 21:39, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh Mattise, please don't make a battle out of this. Please, please just drop the whole thing. Things will spiral out of control like they did last time. Only this time you'll end up the worse for it. People make mistakes, it happens. Read WP:POINT which you are falling foul of. Set your reputation by the good work on articles and not by the arguments you get involved with. --Salix alba (talk) 21:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Whats happening?

Mattisse, I am not trying to take away any credit. If you compare the last edit you made w.r.t. alphebetical reordering and the current version, you will see what happened. I added three more references (Majumdar, Jain and De Bryne) to the list. In doing so, I forgot that you had rearranged the references per alpha order and I realised I had spoilt the order by mistake. So I rearranged again the way you had done it, only this time I added the three new refernces for citations #54,56,57 ( i think) in alpha order. I know you are going thru a stressful time for reasons I dont fully underatand, but I dont hold your last message against you. Please calm down!!:)Dineshkannambadi 13:52, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Dont worry!! no apologies needed. I have explained that earlier.Dineshkannambadi 17:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

RE Request

Yes, I would be happy to be your advocate. In fact, since Steve posted recently that he was looking for someone to take on the case, I've already contacted him and asked his permission to take the case. So I'm just waiting for him to receive my posting and formally hand the case over to me. In the meantime, I'll read through the pages and archives associated with the dispute. Since this is a unique situation, as the original dispute has already been the subject of an ArbCom verdict (which supersedes any AMA actions), I'm not sure how much I can do in terms of dispute resolution, but I'll do everything I can. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 17:28, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Steve doesn't seem to have replied to my posting yet. However, I can certainly give you informal advice about how to deal with the matter, and answer any questions you may have. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 17:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Update - Steve has now officially passed your case over to me. So I'm here to help with anything you need. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 19:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, who is the sockpuppet in question? Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 18:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not completely sure of the situation here, but it looks like Aeon has contacted you below on behalf of his advocee, Jefferson Anderson, concerning the conflict between you and this user. I don't know the background, but judging from his talkpage this user has a history of getting into conflict. If you have any further problems with this user, I'll contact Aeon and ask him to have a word with his advocee. My advice to you is to disengage from the whole thing, and try not to worry about this user; as I say, just contact me if there are any further problems with him. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 19:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

That's OK, no problem. Glad to be helpful. :) Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 19:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Mattise

Ok, before this gets out of hand and before there are a buch of issues please see this Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Frater Xyzzy. Those users are unrealated per the checkuser results.

Also Jefferson is requesting that you cease attacks on him I will be reviewing his last edits and yours to ensure that this is a valid complaint. If it is you need to cease, if he is at fault I will inform him and direct him to the polices in question. Æon ^{Insanity Now!} _{Give Back Our Membership!} 18:59, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that disengaging seems to be the best cause of action. Things are like a tinder box which only the slightest spark can set off. Best not make any more sparks, and keeping quite on the issue in public is the best option. --Salix alba (talk) 19:40, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Like an entrance porch with steps leading up and parapets on either side? Yes, I may have several tyles actually. I can upload it later tonight. Any particular article?Dineshkannambadi 22:17, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The main difference is Kailasanatha at Ellora was done top down and I think working the normal way, from the ground level up. Artisans may have worked from all anglaes simulteneously. The Pancha Ratha seems to be the usual way, from the outside, carving their way in.I visited Mahaballipuram as a child, I have old black and white pictures (in bad condition) from 1970.Dineshkannambadi 01:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You mean the short tower, the structures are not so large that they would have needed a top down approach. Thats my guess. Here is what Prof. Sastri says (history of South India),

The structures at Mamallapuram (Mahaballipuram) can be grouped into a)cut in cave temples, 2)Cut out monolitic called rathas (the ones you are refering to) 3)bas-relief structures in the open air rocks 4)structural temples

I read a para on the cut out rathas and the author does not mention any top down approach. I have put an image of a simple porch in my user page. you may use that if you find it interesting. Else, I will look for something else.Dineshkannambadi 01:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I dont understand "I am under a uder a warning. Perhaps curtains!"Dineshkannambadi 02:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I am talking about the weather, for once not Wikiedia. Our weatherman committed suicide a week ago for so seemingly no reason, He was a wonderful guy and I was very fond of him and wil miss him greatly. Another loss. --Mattisse 02:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

yes, porch to a Mantapa. At some ponit, a DYK, "porches in South Indian temples" will be nice. I have one from Kalyani Chalukya, Ganga, Hoysala.Dineshkannambadi 18:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Political History of medieval Karnataka

Whenever you have time, please do a thorough copy edit. I have to create a template for "timeline". Do you think its ok to mention literature/architecture in a few sentences or is that redundant in this topic. We need to chop down some 20% if necessary.Dineshkannambadi 18:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

All the topics you have listed (as created by you) add flavor, color and depth to the articles we call FA's. They are important in their own way, but have limitation on depth unless one is an expert in that field. Each and every one of those topics you have created are potential FA's, but we dont have the knowledge to make them. For instance, to create an FA on Kirtimukha, one would have to study them from various building idioms point of view (I only know of Western Chalukya/Hoysala kirtimukhas) which may require travel across the subcontinent and reading several related books.You will have plenty of opportunity for more such topics. In fact some of those can be combined to for a DYK such as "decorative practices in India temple architecture" (just a name I pulled from my ear)Dineshkannambadi 18:47, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Another DYK would be "Temple tanks of South India" (extended to Temple tanks of India if we have images).Dineshkannambadi 18:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

If you love water, there is no better place to be when in India than Karnataka. Not only does it have a 300km pristine coastline (whish several states

have) but also over 100 famous water falls.In fact in a latest book released in the USA ("1000 must see places before you die"), the waterfalls of Karnataka is listed. Orissa and Mizoram follow as 2nd and 3rd.Dineshkannambadi 19:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You can start now.Dineshkannambadi 19:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Keep going. I dont see any problems so far. The article is mostly about political life. we should cut down on architecture as much as possible. may be 2 lines per empire should do.Dineshkannambadi 22:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Can I make one edit?Dineshkannambadi 23:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I am done. Since politics and administration go hand in hand, I wanted to make sure the language of administration is mentioned and one line about literature too.Dineshkannambadi 23:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

No. Badami cave temples are not yet included, but proposed.BTW, thanks for red linking Kakusthavarma. I will make a DYK out of it this weekend.Dineshkannambadi 01:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I felt one line on language of administration/literature and one line on architecture would give proper perspective to the unknowing reader.What do you think?Dineshkannambadi 01:55, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, If we replace the maps with an image of a monument, then we could eliminate the architecture part. It would also make the article look colourful.Opinions?Dineshkannambadi 01:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

How do I connect the dots? I wanted this article to mainly reflect Polity(history of rise/fall) and a few lines on Administration(language) and architecture (just the style). Language is an important part of government (this is perhaps the most focussed issue in India due to regional linguistic pride).Help me tie up the dots.Dineshkannambadi 02:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, then we can put images (one per empire), eliminate the architecture part and reduce content.Sound ok?Dineshkannambadi 02:10, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Talking about linguistic pride, this citation I brought in today into the Kannada page helped clinch a major issue (an ongoing edit war with some guys who doubted the antiquity of Kannada)[9]Dineshkannambadi 02:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I and some others have worked very hard on the Kannada Language page to bring in all the citations. Unfortunately, what you see (mingling of different cultures and languages in India) others dont see. Their ego blinds them. Each one thinks his language and culture has evolved in isolation. A pity!!Dineshkannambadi 02:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok. So just one-two lines on architecture to give context to the image. One of the coming articles is "Political History of Karnataka-Post Vijayanagara" will include

1. Mysore kingdom 2. sultanates 3. British 4. Portuguese 5. Nayakas (Keladi/Chitradurga) 6. Maratha wars 5. Unification of Karnataka trust me, there is no shortage of great images for this one.Dineshkannambadi 02:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Not exactly. There is no timeline, everything is on going. One topic starts before the previous one ends. If this topic is ready for peer reivew with all copy edits, modifications done by the end of this month, then we can focus on the FAC of Rashtrakuta. If I get Nikhil's Ganga images from India by then, I will start on Western Ganga Dynasty in the background in earnest mid-May. Do you think a map of Karnataka showing ancient capitals will help the Political History.. article?Dineshkannambadi 03:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not trying to promote Kannada. Kannada was an integral part of the administration of these empires. For instance even inscriptions mention this. It brings to light the interaction of the Royalty (who would have equally been inclined to Kannada and Sanskrit, Sanskrit being considerd the language of cultute and Kannada the natural language (Thapar p345)). I also want to include Sanskrit as a language of inscriptions (I left that out in this article by mistake) as it played an equally important role from 4th - 10th century in administration, but slowly waned in the successive years becoming only literary and finally even that reduced. Today there is rarely any Sanskrit literary works (having left very useful influences on Kannada in the process). So while this article is about political history, I was only trying to emphasise

on the language of administration as an important but secondary point. The main focus should be on Rise and fall of the empires, their conquests followed by lesser focus on language of administration.Dineshkannambadi 13:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC) In fact I think many modern readers (not just westerners) especially from India dont understand the assertiveness of local languages in medieval administration. They look at medieval India with blinkers on from todays point of view. Its My mentioning Kannada and Sanskrit in each section is a way to convey to all of them the assertiveness of the local language in ancient India and its usage as a part of politics.Dineshkannambadi 13:54, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

is not the issue of the evolution of Kannada as an "official" language one of the major points?

I thought about this. I think we should try to bring out this flavour too, but not as the major point. I will write a different article later "Evolution of Kannada" where the entire focus is going to be on the evolution of the language as one of admin/inscriptions and literature, devotional movements.Dineshkannambadi 13:59, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I fully understand your point. You dont want the article to become a linguistic

competition, but whether you want it to or not, it will become one. So may as well elaborate on it, provide the citations and hope the readers are mature enough to see the citations and not vandalise or POV.Dineshkannambadi 14:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

In fact I need to add one sentence to the empires at the bottom, the Sultanates. They actually gave patronage to Persian, with Kannada and Marathi used only for local matters. Can you imagine, Persian in South India? This is a fact. Many persian words have come into even south Indian languages because of this, especially in north Karnataka, north Andhra Pradesh. This is important from the readers point of view to mention this with a citation. Sure, there may be a fanatic somewhere who cant accept that Persian came into use in Karnataka, but history has to be brought out, patriotism or not. This is why I assert I am not trying to focus on one language, though undoubtedly Kannada is the main language of the region.Dineshkannambadi 14:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not offended by your critisism, in fact it helps. If I cant write detailed/unbiased (to a human extent) articles, then I am wasting my time on wikipedia. It just so happens I am writing all my articles on Karnataka, so Kannada naturally appears dominant. You will change any views you may have that I am partial to Karnataka quickly if I ever write about any other state.Dineshkannambadi 14:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

This is where my fellow Indian reviewers come in. If there is any bias, they will catch on easily and immedietly. This is why its important to have as many Indian reviewrs as western ones. The western reviewers go for format, presentations etc(things they relate to) and the Indians go for the content.Dineshkannambadi 14:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for Kakusthavarma.Dineshkannambadi 22:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Can I make edits to History of Med...Dineshkannambadi 00:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Take a break.That will helpDineshkannambadi 00:07, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Images for "political History.." How does this sound,

1. Kadambas-->Kadamba shikara (Kadamba tower close up from Doddagaddavalli, earliest native architectural style)-->dont have anything else. Or we use the images in Banavasi page which shows the tower anyway.

2. Badami Chalukyas-->One of the Badami cave temples images or the Temple image (Virupaksha) in Chalukya Dynasty page or Pattadakal page. Or I can upload some more that look more or less similar. I have some images of women doing hairstyles, dressing etc but the impact wont be there.

3. Rashtrakutas-->limited to Ellora

4. Western Chalukyas-->limited to 2 temples. Kirthimukha may look good?

5. Hoysala-->vast choice here. Chennakesava temple or Hoysaleshwara temple or sculpture of dancer (madanika), Kesava temple from Somanathapura?

6. Vijayanagara-->good choice here in my album. Yali pillar is their best innovation. Or an image from Hampi or Vijayanagara?

7 Gangas-->Shravanabelagola. You have a few good ones on your user page somewhere right?

8. Bahamanis-->not sure . Need to look up in wiki.

9. Bijapur Sultanate-->Gol Gumbaz from Bijapur page.Dineshkannambadi 02:53, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Dinesh

are you there?Dineshkannambadi 23:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

See todays main article. If this can be a main FA for the world and common man to read, I dont see why not an article on Political history of Karnataka emphasising a bit on Kannada. Just a thoughtDineshkannambadi 00:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

RE Question

As I don't know the background to the incident to which SilkTork refers, I'm not sure why s/he accused you of dissembling, which is a fairly serious accusation. I will contact SilkTork on your behalf and ask for an explanation. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 16:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Renaissance Architecture

Sorry to have to say this but the cleanup was a stuff-up. Your upgrading of the headings was inconsistent. You omitted to upgrade some and took others, eg Michelozzo, to top level importance rather than the sub-heading he was supposed to be. Brunelleschi, on the other hand, became a sub-heading of his own work and three of the features of Renaissance architecture got lost in the wash.

The reason why Boldface had been employed for so many sub-headings is just that- "so many". It is a very long article with a very large number of sub-headings. This means that the table of contents becomes disproportionately long.

In this matter I have taken the advice of some other experienced editors and have used Boldface for those subheadings which really do not need to appear in the Table of Contents.

I'm about to revert to its previous state, for the reasons above. I notice you made a couple of other small edits along the way which I will try to retain.

--Amandajm 17:22, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi

Dear Mattisse I hope you are doing ok. Your talk page looked horrible to me! I think you have passed through a tough time. Accept all my sympathy for you. I was working on and on with my research backing the Philosophy of death and adjustment. Will you pls permit me to edit the article on your my box 11 and 12. I know it is a dead article but as I've been working on and on, I want to try to improve it in the box. You can reply me on e-mail. Take care! SamirShoovrow 15:35, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Update on your earlier question

Hi Mattisse, sorry I took so long to get back to you (I've had several things happening on-wiki, as you can probably tell from my talkpage). SilkTork has now replied to me.

• He said that his use of the word "deceitful" was in reference to your previous use of sockpuppets. I didn't believe this at first - you certainly don't seem like the sort of person who would use sockpuppets - but he showed me Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Mattisse. I took a look through that category, and apparently there was a CheckUser case against you at one time. Obviously I don't think that you would use sockpuppets abusively, and I know that it's more likely you were innocent - CheckUser is wrong sometimes, particularly if you have a dynamic IP address, or if other people use your computer or Internet connection. But that's SilkTork's explanation for using the word "deceitful".
• The other issue was that SilkTork states that you accused him of ignoring your emails and not replying. That's easy to explain, of course; as you said earlier, you weren't receiving emails at that stage due to a vandal messing around with your email address. Clearly that's just a misunderstanding on both sides, and not your fault or SilkTork's.

I'll talk to SilkTork some more about this issue. I understand that you're quite upset by his comments, and I'll do my best to try and resolve the dispute between you. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 16:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Dinesh

Template was created by User:KNMDineshkannambadi 19:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Not Dinesh

I wouldn't advise posting a response under SilkTork's accusations, as this could blow up into another argument. I've communicated with SilkTork and explained that the issue with ignoring emails is probably a misunderstanding. As to the sockpuppetry accusations, I don't know what the situation was with that, but SilkTork probably came across the category Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Mattisse and jumped to the wrong conclusion. Not his fault. So my advice would be to disengage from this debate and cool off for a while. I will talk to SilkTork and try to sort this out for you. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 19:41, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Dinesh

Ok. Take another look at copyediting Political History... We need an image for the Bahamani Sultanate.We need to tie it up. I need to add a few more lines in all.Dineshkannambadi 19:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I dont have anything for Kakusthavarma. Nothing would be more befitting than the Halmidi inscription as it is ascribed to him. I am planning on visiting Halmidi village for a photograph of the fibre glass replica of the inscription as well as Hulikere Pushkarni (Hoysala stepped tank with zodiac shrines) this year on my way back from Bhadra wildlife Sanctuary.Dineshkannambadi 20:35, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Look at this link for an idea about Bahamani monuments.[10]Dineshkannambadi 20:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Update

Update on the SilkTork question: SilkTork says that he will be satisfied if you retract the statements he regards as unfair, that is, I went to my AMA page and saw that he had withdrawn from the case. He did not inform me of this, he never asked my opinion about anything nor given my any feedback. He still has not answered my emails. He did not even notify me he had withdrawn. As we've established, that was neither your fault or his; it was a misunderstanding because your email wasn't working. So it might be best if you go to your previous posting here and retract those statements by striking them out. I think if you do that, then this dispute can stop right here. It isn't your fault, nor is it SilkTork's; it's just that this misunderstanding came at a difficult time, and blew up into a dispute. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 09:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I have seen some of those derogatory statements made by SilkTork towards you. I will talk to SilkTork and ask him to retract them; it wasn't acceptable for him to describe you as "manipulative and exploitative" and "self-obsessed" on a public talkpage. Hopefully SilkTork will be reasonable about this. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 15:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I really wouldn't advise going to ANI at this stage. I have asked SilkTork to retract the statements; I totally agree with you that he was wrong to describe you as "manipulative and exploitative", etc. I don't think he's online at the moment, so wait till tomorrow and see if he retracts the statements, as I requested. ANI should only be a last resort. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 16:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

No, tomorrow won't be too late, as his comment was recent. Mattisse, I totally understand how you feel, and I realise that the way SilkTork described you was very upsetting. I'm really sorry that things got to this stage, and I don't know why SilkTork felt the need to attack you. However, I just think it would be best to give him a chance to explain himself, and to retract the statements. If he stands by his statements and refuses to give any explanation, then I will fully support you in going to ANI against him. But give him a chance to reply first. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 16:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Mattisse, I really do understand how you feel, and I totally understand why SilkTork's and Steve's remarks hurt you. Also, in response to "AMA thinks that is fine", I am a member of AMA, and I don't think it's fine; I think SilkTork's remarks towards you were out of order. However, as I don't know all of the background to the case (I've gone through all the records, but obviously I don't have access to your emails), I just want to give SilkTork a chance to retract his statements. I am sure that when he reflects on the situation, he will apologise for his unfair remarks. But the best advice I can give you right now is to disengage, concentrate on other things, and I'll get back to you about this tomorrow. Cheer up! Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 17:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Just to cheer you up...

Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

It was SilkTork, not Steve, who wanted you to take back your remarks. Sorry if I confused the issue by mentioning both of them. And yes, you're right that SilkTork did violate WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL by his comments on you, and no, I don't think that emails or other evidence justify personal attacks. However, I would just advise waiting for a while and letting this dispute cool down. I will talk to SilkTork some more on your behalf, when he comes online. Hopefully SilkTork will apologise to you. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 17:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Dinesh

Which are the dates that dont match with which other articles? Are the other articles mine too? If not, you should not worry about it. My information comes from books. Other people may take it from blog sites.Dineshkannambadi 20:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

If there is a slight mismatch , its ok. We cant correct linked pages here. If its off by decades, then we need to either not link or set aside "linked topics for correction" and see if we should correct them.Dineshkannambadi 20:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The Tuglauq (or however its written) are entirely different. They ruled from Delhi or near abouts in North India.Ignore them.Dineshkannambadi 21:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Bahamani Sultanate-->However, Mohammed-bin-Tughlaq was the invading commander. So keep that.

I have replied on my talk page.Dineshkannambadi 22:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

yes. I crossed out those guys who are not in the Bijapur/Bahamani picture.Dineshkannambadi 22:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok.Dineshkannambadi 22:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I know. Just delink Firuz Zhah and leave it.Dineshkannambadi 22:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Yah! ok.Dineshkannambadi 23:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Please stop this!

I'm not sure why you do this. You say things that are not true. And I read on Walton's talkpage that you are saying things to him that you said to me. That you want to be told the truth about your behaviour. And you say that I never gave you any advice on your behaviour. Well, I clearly remember writing and sending you an email explaining that your behaviour projects dishonesty and that people would trust you more if you were more open and honest. I see that you have not followed that advice. You insisted that we talked entirely by email, and you now cite that there is no evidence of our exchanges as though that were evidence that I did nothing!

I am hurt by your behaviour. Very hurt. I tried to assist you. I stopped trying to assist you as I saw the situation was very complex and that I couldn't trust what you were saying, and because you were very demanding of my time. But I did you no wrong.

I asked people involved in your case (yes, and that would - to your surprise - include the people with whom you were in dispute - I wanted a balanced viewpoint) what was happening. I asked you what was happening. I withdrew from the case after giving you the honest advice you begged me to give you. That's what I did.

You complained about me from the start. You have continued to complain about me. You have said things about me that are not true.

I ask that you remove the untrue statements. I ask that you apologise for making those statements. And I ask that you not make any more untrue statements about me.

I get the impression that you are unhappy that I am speaking about my frustration at the way that you behave. I get the impression that you are unhappy that I distrust you because you have demonstrated the ability to deceive and dissemble by using sockpuppets and by lying about my involvement with you. I understand that my revealing my frustration and distrust regarding your behaviour is hurting you. I understand that my revealing that I don't like you is upsetting to you. Yet you asked me to let you know how I felt about you so you could learn to improve your behaviour.

If you are nice to people they will be nice to you. Be nasty to people and they will be nasty back. Look through my history here on Wiki and you will note that - as with others - I have come into conflict from time to time. But I have never been nasty to anyone. No matter the provocation I have not been nasty with people. I have always remained civil. You are the single shining example of where I have lost my cool. And - funny enough - I am not the only person who has lost their cool with you. Does that tell you something? The "personal attacks" are people responding to your provocative behaviour.

Let me reveal that I hurt.

You have hurt me.

You are still hurting me.

Let us stop hurting each other.

Remove your lies. Stop talking about me. Leave me alone.

I have no wish to prolong this. I don't enjoy this. This is a waste of life.

I am doing this because you have made me angry. You continue to make me angry.

Remove your lies. Please. Remove your lies. Stop spreading lies about me. Stop hurting me. Leave me alone.

SilkTork 23:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Dinesh

If they are in Delhi, I am afraid we cant use them. The image would have to be one built by the Bahamani's itself, possibly Bidar or Gulbarga. You are doing an amazing amount of research here.Dineshkannambadi 23:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

While having one image per paragraph is good, not having one cant disqualify it.Dineshkannambadi 23:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Tughlaq dynasty are different, though perhaps the Bahamani's may have been their feudatory.Dineshkannambadi 23:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I am pretty new to Islamic dynasties myself. But being Indian, I can make an educated guess. we may have studied briefly about the Tughlaq's in school.Dineshkannambadi 00:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Emails

I've read your emails and will reply to them ASAP - sorry I forgot to check my email last night. My email address is walton_m@hotmail.co.uk. I'll give you some further advice on the SilkTork issue by email. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 09:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I've sent you an email. I've also sent one to SilkTork asking him to apologise for his remarks about you. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 12:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Since you've opened the ANI file, I've added some comments attempting to explain (in a neutral way) the history of the dispute. Otherwise other users won't know the background to what's going on. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 13:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I've sent you another email in response to your posts. Please check your inbox. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 17:14, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I've replied to your email. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 18:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Replied. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 19:30, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Dinesh

Mattisse, I have Rashtrakuta Dynasty in FAC review. We need to go the last mile now to finish the job and as always, I need your support. ThanksDineshkannambadi 01:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I know. Felt so too. Lets wait and see what happens. removing material is always easier than adding.Dineshkannambadi 01:58, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Caution

Mattise, Jefferson Anderson has posted on my talk page that you are accusing him of being a sockpuppet when ALL evidence shows that he is as of this time not a sockpuppeter. This needs to stop please or I will be forced to report it to SYSOPs as it is starting to cause a member some stress. If I find evidence, conculsive edidence that he is in fact using a sockpuppet I will hav ea check user done. As of now I'm AGF in Jefferson Anderson. (I have cross posted this to your advocates page as well) Æon ^{Insanity Now!} 02:04, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Dinesh

May have to chop Society by 1 para and Economy by 2 paras. They are quite big. The templates make them look bigger.Dineshkannambadi 02:12, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Have replied

I've replied to your email, and also given you some advice on the situation with Jefferson Anderson. Sorry I took so long to reply, I had to log off last night. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 08:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. I will create a ==xxx== from next time.Dineshkannambadi 12:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Take your time

Dont kill yourself. Take your time. We have plenty of it.Dineshkannambadi 13:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

THANK YOU

		The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
		Hello Mattisse, I am glad to award this to you for your excellent and tireless contributions on articles related to History of Karnataka and continued and tireless support to Dinesh in writing FA after FA. Thank you for your contributions and look forward many more from you. KNM Talk 14:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks and note for you

Dear Mattisse, Thank you for your encouraging and nice comment. I am working hard for the subject. In fact when I searched goole for Philosophy of death and adjustment, I found 3 pages in result from wikipedia. One is your box-11, another is your box-12 and finally a page named user: 203......something that I saved as user: samir hossain as per the instruction on that page for saving it. I wanted the topic to be more comprehensive and thus I tried to rearrange all the pages that are displayed in the google search. So I had to re-edit on your two pages (both box 11 and 12) in addition to user:samir hossain. So it would be nice if you delete your pages containg the same article as the user: samir hossain.

In fact some people including you and DGG were very much helpful and willing to save my effort when I understood very little about wikipedia. So multiple pages contain this topic. So if you, though no offence, delete your two boxes 11 and 12 that are not of much use for you and making your arrangements cloudy, it will be good for me too cause I will have to edit on one page, i.e., user: samir hossain, and may be people will be able to read richer version of the topic from a single page.

I wanted to tell you about the existance of two boxes when you said you deleted one. But I thought you are passing through a tough time and I should not vex you much. If, anyway, you decide to keep one of your boxes, 11 or 12, thats no problem too. But in that case pls let me edit as much as possible.

As one of your friends, I am concerned about your well being. So just relax, and leave all behind but yourself. Sometimes it is necessary to be selfish for the sake of preserving future capacity.

I hope this long message will not trouble you much.

Regards - SamirShoovrow 14:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

(replied by email)

paras

I mean selectively reduce/strip out/make concise excess info.Dineshkannambadi 17:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Jain caves

Please add this with citation in the architecture section. I missed that one.Dineshkannambadi 17:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Strikeout

Hello Mattisse,
While I understand your intentions when you strike out certain sentences and paragraphs, it is not accepted in Wikipedia. We need to keep in mind, at any given point of time, the article must always be readable to a reader. Striking out a sentence will put a reader in confusion, "hey..whats going on here? why it is struck out?". However, the practice of striking out as the matter of copyediting in your own sandbox is accepted, so that other people can quickly understand what are the lines you preferred to remove. But it is certainly not acceptable in mainspace articles. Hope it makes sense. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks - KNM ^Talk 18:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Alright. In that case, please go ahead and copy the entire article and put it under your userspace sandbox...say User:Mattisse/sandbox/Rashtrakuta Dynasty or somewhere. Then you can continue your work of copyediting, and let Dinesh know about this location. Whenever he has time, he can go over the changes you intend to make. Finally, once you both have agreed, then either of you can make those changes in main article.

While the above method is apparently the best approach, I understand it is time and effort consuming. If you think, you will have to spend too much of unnecessary time in that process, please go ahead and make the changes directly in the main article, without striking out. Then Dinesh can go over all the diffs of yours edits, and see what are the changes you have made. Let me know if there is any help, I can do. Thanks, - KNM ^Talk 18:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is exhausting copy editing his work because of all the footnotes etc. -- it is very hard to find my place. I'm just going to take a chance and remove what I have struck out. Then I just won't do any more until he decides. I'm pretty tired anyway. Sincerely, --Mattisse 19:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Rashtrakuta

So far no body has complained about size of those sectons. So if adding strikeouts is not correct in a FAC review time, lets just discuss it. If you are certian something is unnecessary, just remove it. If you are not sure, cut and paste in my talk page and we can examine it (though this makes it more cumbersome).Dineshkannambadi 19:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I am reverting back to your last edit before you reverted your own strikeouts. The I will remove the dashed lines. This way your work is not wasted..Dineshkannambadi 19:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I am not reverting since you are editing.Dineshkannambadi 19:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

more info

I have been asked to add more info to HISTROY regarding the breakaway kingdoms after the fall of Rashtrakutas. So surely, I will have to reduce on the existing info in" History" section tonight toaccomodate new info.Dineshkannambadi 19:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

history

I trust you. Give it a shot. Dont be dissappointed if I reinstate some of it back though. watch out for the citations. Sometimes I club several sentences for one citation. But first the economy and societyDineshkannambadi 19:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

looks ok.

Looks ok, no issue. conveys the same meaning.Dineshkannambadi 19:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Economy needs to be shrunk first.1-2 paragraphs. The details already exist in the subarticle anyway.Dineshkannambadi 20:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Thats funny. Try to get rid of 1-2 lines per para. That way we balance the changes. I will be away from my computer for a few hours.Dineshkannambadi 20:07, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you there.?Dineshkannambadi 23:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Rashtrakuta History

I added a few lines to the end of Rashtrakuta empire and what happened to their feudatories as requested by the reviewer.Dineshkannambadi 00:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed some lines from Economy. I hope I did not mess up your edit.I will let you drive now.Dineshkannambadi 01:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Economy-->Try to remove a line here and a line there to reduce by one para. Then, we are done with this section. Tommorow we can handle History section. We have time. In the meatime You may copy edit History for English/grammar/spelling (for which I am famous:)Dineshkannambadi 01:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Anywhere in the Economy section. Not sure about the loading problem.Dineshkannambadi 01:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually the slowness was not because of the number of mesages on my talk page but because of the number of jpg image filesthat were in it.Dineshkannambadi 02:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

History-->I have removed multiple sentences that were either redundant or repeats.Dineshkannambadi 02:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah Mattise

There was no agreement between us, that agreement was between you and Jefferson Anderson to use both myself and Walton to communitcate between you two, Sorry. Additionaly I'm well within my rights as a wikipedian to post a caution on your page if Wiki Policy is violated. I did cross post the caution (and it was an AGF caution BTW) to your advocates page as a friednly heads up to him. Æon ^{Insanity Now!} 02:57, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Replied

I've replied to your email, and will send you another one as soon as I get a reply from Aeon. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 12:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I've replied to your mail. Like I said, I'll be in contact with you as soon as Aeon replies to me. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 18:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Did you get my last email? You sent another one shortly after. I've replied to your second one as well, so you should have two new messages from me. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 18:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Replied. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 19:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Economy

Dont bother. It exists in the subarticle. At this point all looks ok. I have reduced History by about 6 lines yesterday. If anyone complains, we can further reduce. Try to focus on the grammar, spelling, compating instead of removing.Dineshkannambadi 14:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

language

I have clarified to your tag.Dineshkannambadi 18:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

court

yes, royal courts and the royal archivists who wrote inscriptions based on set formats. we am begining to really understand the ancient administrative systems here.Dineshkannambadi 18:11, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The royal court decress set up the admin system.Dineshkannambadi 18:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

language

Go ahead. Try to reduce it, I ended up adding several lines to clarify when we are trying to reduce it.Dineshkannambadi 18:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

language

Citation 142 and 144 are the same. You can remove my earlier edit completely and just append citation 144 to clarify where you had put Dineshkannambadi 18:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

A language becomes assertive when more and more inscriptions are made in that language indicating royal acceptance in the legal,judicial process.Dineshkannambadi 18:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Its a simple issue. So lets not involve others. If you dont like assertive, call it "official" or something. This line has been used in other FA's. So lets just leave as is if you cant find a better word. Just chop #142, move up #144 and lets close the chapter. Nobody is complaining about it, why should we?Dineshkannambadi 18:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I meant citation #142, #144. I am glad you care. You have email tooDineshkannambadi 19:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I dont mind if you can chop Economy a bit more. 2-4 lines from anywhere. Nobody is complaining at this point, so it must be fine. This is the good thing about following a set format. I am sure there will be lot more questions when we bring Political history... to peer review.Dineshkannambadi 22:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

You can take it out. skipped my attention.Dineshkannambadi 23:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Dont bother. It should not make a difference.The nice part is we have a subarticle thats fully reflective of everything I read in the book.Dineshkannambadi 00:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, if you have moved significant amount of data around like in your last two edits, better to include the citation it originally had too, just in case. For the citation, make it a combined citation with the original sentences that it went along with. like this where xxx is the common "keyword" for both citations.Dineshkannambadi 00:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC) Let me handle it.Dineshkannambadi 00:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok. now I will take a look at combined citations (outside the economy section) to make sure we did not mix up authors or citations during the process of copy edits.Looks fine now.Dineshkannambadi 00:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

You have mail.Dineshkannambadi 00:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Looks fine to me.one more email.Dineshkannambadi 01:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Next project

One of these two, 1. Western Ganga dynasty

2. Political History of Karnataka - Post Vijayanagara

Dineshkannambadi 01:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry!

Please don't leave Wikipedia! Of course I won't close the case if you don't want me to. And I'll talk to Fred Bauder for you. I've replied to your email. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 12:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Replied to your email. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 16:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

cite142

You have mail. They may be updating the web site or something. If it continues to be "not found" for days, then we can change it.Dineshkannambadi 18:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I haven't abandoned you!

I've sent you another important email. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 18:26, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Tripartite struggle

Mattise, the struggle was between Rashtrakutas of Manyakheta, Palas and Pratiharas. All these are contemporary empires of the 9th-10th centuries, not between 6th and 13th centuries.Dineshkannambadi 00:28, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Rock the Joint

Please explain your edit summary statement regarding material I added being placed over top of something else? I wasn't adding any information under the book citation reference, but simply adding material to the paragraph. 23skidoo 19:13, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

• You certainly shouldn't have removed the reference in Rock the Joint - you rendered the article completely unreferenced by doing so. I have put it back. And I am also adding the reference desired to the Essex Records article, however I ran into a cut-and-paste problem so I need to redo it. 23skidoo 19:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

You've got mail

Check your inbox. I've also contacted Fred Bauder for you. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 09:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello

While you have asked me not to post on your page seeing the notes you posted on Freb Buller's page made me want to post on yours, don't worry this is not bad. I don't think you should leave the Wiki. While it is of course your right you should not leave permanently because of a dispute (I tried to do that once and found that I couldn't ;) ). There are (like most things in life) things on Wikipedia that can be unfair but there are also many positives as well. Stay, take a wikibreak if you are stressed of course (could help the situation a lot giving all concerned a chance to clam down and forgive (BTW I have no hard feelings)), but stay you ARE a good editor, a tad stubborn at times (A quality I like LOL I'm stubborn to and it gets me into some hot water every now and again), but someone that can be counted on to support the ideals of the project. If you do leave then I wish you Fair Winds and Following Seas (A traditional Navy Farewell) and if you don't then have fun editing many many articles. Æon ^{Insanity Now!} 13:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S.

Also for you think of this as my way of saying stay and that even one of those who you disagree with you at times wants you to stay. Æon ^{Insanity Now!} 13:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

		The Barnstar of Diligence
		I Aeon award Mattisse the Barnstar of Diligence for her excellence as an editor and for any of her unrecognized edits and contributions that may have gone unnoticed. Æon Insanity Now! 13:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello Again and your Welcome

No Worries, and I will tell the editor that posted on my talk page, Waltons and Freds to ceese and distist as it is realy not helping and that it would be better that we all move on and grow from it rather than get bogged down with a dispute. Æon ^{Insanity Now!} 17:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Please do not post on my talk page

I am sorry, but your behavior does not support the sincerity of your apology. Please assert if you have any connection to BackMaun and Alien666 (who, according to a checkuser, sometimes share your IP), and/or RasputinJSvengali, or if you know of any connection between them and Timmy12 and/or anyone acting at your direction and/or in cooperation with you and/or from your IP. Otherwise, please do not post on my talk page again. You are, indeed, knowingly causing me distress, and saying you regret it doesn't make it so. Rosencomet 18:40, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Rosencomet

You've done everything you can. I've left a message on his talk page asking him to accept your apology. But like Aeon said above, it's really better if we all move on and leave this dispute behind. Walton ^{Vivat Regina!} 19:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Mattisse, it is rude and deceptive to edit someone else's talk page comments. Please undo your recent edits to Fred's talk page. Thatcher131 16:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I've had it

I am not doing any good "helping" you. Please turn your attention elsewhere. Fred Bauder 17:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Warning: Stop engaging Jefferson Anderson on Fred's talk page or anywhere else. Back away and edit something else, or take a break. The sniping is getting increasingly uncivil and is no longer helpful to the situation, if it ever was. I am giving him the same warning. Thatcher131 19:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Your AMA case

It's at Wikipedia:AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests/November 2006/Mattisse. I am sorry that you feel I've backed down, and I don't think things are hopeless. Please don't try and get banned; that's just unproductive. I'm doing my best to help you. Fred Bauder has clearly withdrawn from the case, as per his comments above. But if you tell me what you would like to achieve in relation to JA and Rosencomet, I will try and negotiate a solution. Walton ^{Need some help?} 19:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

By the way, why did you change your signature to HeadlessJeff? It confused me for a minute with your post on my talkpage, as I couldn't see who it was. Walton ^{Need some help?} 19:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes I changed it. When I changed it briefly before, I got a barage of mail from Wikipedia asking me to change my password and email address -- my email address did somehow get changed for a few days. Sorry to confuse you. It's just that there is nothing to do here now except to try to get into trouble. I would think it is fairly clear that what I want is to be left alone and not stalked by Rosencoment and Jefferson Anderson. I also think it is fairly clear that they cannot be negotiated with -- I believe you said so yourself. So I have given up after 10 month of trying to be an excellent editor. I realise it is hopeless. I believe you indicate something similar in one of your last emails to me. So I in frustration and disappointment and a feeling of evil all around me I would rather be banned than put up with this hypocracy anymore. If you have any suggestions, great! But I believe you indicated before that it was hopeless. I am open to any suggestions otherwise. Please realise that I am being stalked here. HeadlessJeff 20:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I can no longer locate my case any more. I believe you or someone gave me a link to it not long ago, but it is lost in so many emails. I should just dump my emails out as I have too many and can't find anything. HeadlessJeff 20:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I provided the link above. It's at Wikipedia:AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests/November 2006/Mattisse. The situation isn't hopeless, and I apologise if I implied that in my emails. Walton ^{Need some help?} 20:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm happy to continue the conversation here. I did see your reply, and answered it above. Walton ^{Need some help?} 20:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Retired??

Hello Mattisse
What happened? Please reconsider your decision. Your contributions towards History related articles of South India were extremely impressive and your support to User:Dineshkannambadi has been excellent all these days, and it is one of the reasons for Dinesh to write several FAs.

If you have issues in other parts of your contributions, please avoid them and continue wherver you feel comfortable, contributing and collaborating. If you need, please take some time off to lessen the pressure, but please do come back. Please. Thank you - KNM ^Talk 21:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Suspected Sockpuppet: Mattisse (4th) case

I have opened this case, having seen too little real action taken on this situation, and not wishing to be told once again that it is too late to investigate the issue. [11] Rosencomet 21:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Take it easy

Take it easy, his request was already turned down. Thatcher131 01:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply

The best advice I can think of is: Please avoid all the articles, discussions where you feel other users are involved who you think you have issues or who you think are stalking you. Concentrate only on totally different areas such as History of India related articles, like assisting Dinesh on writing FAs. That assisting will also provide a way to write your own articles which could act as sub-articles for the FA main article, and there by contributing to DYKs. I see that you have quite a few interesting DYKs, and all of them are through your non-controversial side of contributions. Wikipedia is not a battleground, and we all are here to write an encyclopedia. I am sure those who you think are stalking, will not trouble if you start avoiding them. Honestly, I am totally unaware of what are the articles and discussions that resulted in your frustration to leave. But instead of leaving completely the project, you can leave whichever you feel bad, and work on those things whichever you feel good and safe and secure to contribute. I hope, this helps. Thanks! - KNM ^Talk 02:48, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Alright. I see what you are saying. But I wonder how, anyone can trouble you as long as you are trying to stay away from them. If you give me permission, I will be keeping a close eye on your contribution log, and give an advice you not to do something, if you are seen doing something. Water under the bridge. Lets try out this, afresh. Does that sound okay to you? Again, please keep in mind: No one can win by driving you away, as long as you are doing right things, per yourself and per Wiki policies.

Now, as a first step, please forget everything whatever happened till now!

As a second step, take a topic, preferably something similar to your previous DYKs, which are completely non-controversial. You can take some work load from Dinesh. He can tell you what is in his plate for next few days or few weeks. Start writing articles on those areas, and produce some good DYKs like you have done in the past. OK? Thanks for coming back, and I wish you all the best. - KNM ^Talk 03:20, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

OK. That is all past. Please. Forget all that. Honestly, I don't know who they are.

You will need to start working on some articles, to keep yourself busy.

If you do not have any plans of starting a new article, then I suggest, and request, to you to copyedit and cleanup articles such as History of Karnataka, Rajkumar, Geography of Karnataka. By the way, I have my eyes on your contrib log! :-) - KNM ^Talk 03:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Signature

There is something wrong with your signature, id doesn't link to your user page. Please fix it in your preferences. John Reaves (talk) 03:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Signature

Please fix your signature, it's not a clickable link. This may be of assistance. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 03:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I apologise

Mattisse, I'm sorry, I was rude at ANI. From a complete outsiders perspective (I have no familiarity with you or Mr Anderson) it just looks like a big rift is forming, which I am sure you are aware of. I just wish it were not there, but I understand that collaboration is difficult and I have certainly not only encountered but also inadvertently created my own rifts before. I hope that I have not caused you too much distress. And try not to worry too much, I think Coelacan is right and now admin would delete the pages (I know I wouldn't if I were an admin).

If you are getting all jittery (I know I can get that way from heated and stressful interactions on Wikipedia), maybe try a cup of tea and sitting away from Wikipedia for a little while. Best wishes, Iamunknown 03:27, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Continued...

Good Morning. Hope you had a good night's sleep.
Continuing from where I stopped...
Looking at your contribs log, as I had mentioned to you earlier, you certainly need to stop talking to few people, if you want to divert your mind peacefully to somewhere else, on your contributions. So, my request to you now specifically, is to stop posting messages to User:Jefferson Anderson and User:Fred Bauder. Also, your this particular message on my talk page was, for most part of it, unnecessary. I am emphasizing again that, unless you completely ignore whatever that happened in the past with them, it would be extremely difficult for you to continue peacefully. There is no point continuing the same stuff forever. So, please listen to my words, as you had agreed upon. Stopping the communication with Jefferson and Fred, would be a significant first step. I am confident and have faith that, they wont communicate with you unless you goto their talk pages. Have a good day, and I would like to see some new article or some good copyedit on the articles I mentioned above. Thanks - KNM ^Talk 09:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. I was just trying to explain as you did not seem to understand from your last post. I cannot edit again until this problem is fixed. Editing, like Dinesh's last article, is what got me into trouble this time. I apologise for my post to you. Sincerely, Mattisse 12:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Email, sorry for late response

I've replied to your emails. Sorry I didn't do this earlier, I couldn't get on Hotmail last night and I've had a lot to do in RL lately. Walton ^{Need some help?} 12:18, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Hello Mattisse

Hello Mattisse. My advice: let others get dragged into pettiness. And if you have any troubles again, ask me to advocate on your behalf rather than someone with less experience or someone who is less aware of the good work you do round here. I'll sort it out so you can return to your work. In the mean time, please take your mind off such unpleasantries, relax, and review my latest offering Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Buena Vista Social Club!!! I can't get anyone to review it for featured article status :( -- Zleitzen^(talk) 11:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

1. The users who are placing you in discomfort don't have a leg to stand on and have no capability of impacting on your status here. They will not be able to delete your user pages or initiate any further unilateral acts.
2. The discrepancies that appeared in your editing behaviour last year can be largely explained away by edits left on your talk page. These include outrageous unjustified attacks such as this. Given the level of abuse, the community at large will not hold this against you as these discrepancies were long ago.
3. Now you can just relax and get on with enjoying your editing. A number of good faith editors have your page watchlisted, and are checking contributions. If there is anything we miss, such as a possible attacks elsewhere, then simply email myself or another editor who has your interests in mind, and let other people take over from there to resolve the situation. It is advisable to let others act on your behalf rather than pleading your own defence.-- Zleitzen^(talk) 12:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

My dear friend

Dear Mattisse, As I've seen you being disturbed by many unwanted events, I did not want to vex you for submitting article "Death and Adjustment". But I certainly wish you would see it. Also any editing is welcome, primarily as a wkipedian and secondarily as a very positive role player and good friend of mine at wiki. Shoovrow 15:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply

If you want to change your account name, you don't have to abandon your existing contribution history - just go to WP:CHU and request a name change. However, I don't understand why Thatcher131 told you to change your account name; I can't see that it would help with things. I will ask him why he thought this was necessary. Walton ^{Need some help?} 18:14, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Welcome back

Our prayers have been answered:) I have been adding more citations and minor modifications to Rashtrakuta. Looking good after some rude initial shocks. More and more supports have come in. Next in line is Political history of medieval Karnataka. You have already done significant copy edits there. Perhaps you can think of ways to improve it.!!! Let me get back to you tonight and plan our next set of articles.Dineshkannambadi 18:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Your email yesterday

Yes, of course I'm still your Advocate. There was only one day when I didn't reply, because I couldn't get on Hotmail. Don't panic! I won't desert you. Walton ^{Need some help?} 11:24, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Your user page

I have deleted a number of abusive revisions from your user page; the two you requested plus a few more that I found. Thatcher131 03:27, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

You posted this to my talk page:

[12] This diff exists in the history of my user page. It identifies Alien666 and BackMaun as sockpuppets of Mattisse as identified by checkuser. If you are not the right person to ask, could you direct me to the correct person? Thank you. Sincerely, Mattisse 19:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[13] a similar diff in the history of my user page. Could you direct me to someone who can help me with this problem? Sincerely, --Mattisse 19:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I checked and found that an anonymous IP user had unfairly labled you a sockpuppet user. Probably Ekajati. I assumed you wanted the edit removed, so I did so. I also found some other abusive edits (such as calling you mentally unstable) and I removed them as well. Thatcher131 15:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikibreak templates

You can find different wikibreak templates at Wikipedia:Wikibreak. --Ezeu 14:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Village pump

The Wikipedia:Village pump can most easily be found from the Community portal or Help:Contents page (both linked in the sidebar). --Quiddity 18:13, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

No prob. Another tip is to use your browser's "find" function in one of those huge list pages (eg Help:Contents/Site map). That's the fastest/only way I can find most things ;) --Quiddity 19:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Your edits to Talk:Starwood Festival

I have reverted your edits to Talk:Starwood festival. The sockpuppets you complain about are long-banned, and tagging posts as far back as 8 months ago is a case of Disrupting wikipedia to make a point. I do see that in the past someone has tagged some comments in bold-face as made by sockpuppets of Mattisse. For the sake of peace and tranquility, I will ask that a neutral third party remove these labels as well. However, your edits were not helpful, and have nothing to do with writing a good encyclopedia article on the topic, which is what talk pages are for. Please do not restore your edits. Thatcher131 20:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Yurt

I hope you didn't add the {{unsourced}} tag to Yurt just to make a point? Unfortunately, the source you added contained some rather obvious errors, which then also ended up in the article. No sources at all are still better for the encyclopedia than unreliable sources like that. Are there any specific parts of the current text that you want to contest? In that case please say so on the article talk page, and someone will try to address your concerns. Although, as far as I can see, the information given (including the definition in the intro) can be easily verified by the sxisting external links. --Latebird 23:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to disappoint you buddy Tsang Po is the Tibetan name for Brahmaputra River ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^{"Expecting you" Contribs} 19:40, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I am responsible for much of the work on Tibet including the main article, the Dalia Lamas, Lhasa and related content and Tibetan monasteries. I set up WikiProject Tibet which you are more than welcome to join. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^{"Expecting you" Contribs} 19:43, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Welcome back

Good to see you editing again. Did you have a good trip? --Salix alba (talk) 20:41, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Mattisse 02:47, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I hope all is well with you Mattisse. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

All is well due to your wonderful roundup of the sockpuppet ring that had been harassing me for so many months. I cannot thank you enough but just wonder how you saw what was happening when no one else seemed to see it. Sincerely, Mattisse 23:52, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Yarlung (Imperial blood) River

Hi, there was no need to fork the Yarlung Tsangpo River (Tibet) out of Brahmaputra River, because they refer to the same river. Chaipau 21:19, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Barrier

Sorry for redirecting the duplicate fence article to the Barrier one. I should have notified you earlier. But anyway, the fence article was duplicated only a couple of weeks ago, whereas the other one had been there for quite some time. Thanks. --Ragib 20:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

That's O.K. Copy editing from the copy edit backlog is pretty unrewarding anyway. I'll give it up. Thanks. Mattisse 21:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Hey, you were not at fault, and are doing great in fixing the Bangladesh related articles. It is I who was at fault for doing the redirect while you are editing the article. Please accept my apologies, and keep doing your great work. We need more editors to fix the Bangladesh related articles. Thanks. --Ragib 21:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Shoovrow

Hey!! Weeeeeelcommmme back! So glad to see my article modified by you! Shoovrow 17:04, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Mattisse 17:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Welcome back

Welcome back! If you need anything that an admin could help with, drop me a line. Do you want to remove the inactive template from the top of this page? --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 17:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome. And thanks for your template offer but I'd prefer to leave the template on as I am not doing any serious editing now and do not think I will do so in the future as the harassment is not worth it. I am very uncomfortable even doing my current level of superficial editing and I may back out at any time. Since the template has been there the level of harassment has decreased substantially and I have concluded that it is best to have as low a profile and as little interaction with other editors (except a few trusted ones such as User:Zleitzen) as possible. Sincerely, Mattisse 17:29, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

License tagging for Image:Ricefield planting.jpg.jpg

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Che Guevara may not recover from this high-level trashing

Thanks for your warm reply, very much appreciated! I hope the current solution to reach an improved version of the article lead through a combined effort will be effective. But I do find the behaviour of Jimmy Wales a bit strange. I know he's a busy man and all, but why bother with slapping a POV warning on an article in the first place and after that not discussing its validity afterwards?

It's very strange that you had so much trouble with people considering all the good work you've done on all the various articles. Indeed, it's a shame it didn't work out for the Castro article. I hope the Guevara will not end in the same chaos. I'm glad the accusations of people being horribly biased have ceased though. mensch • t 16:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

mensch • t, it is so good to have contact with you again! As it turned out after Mediation Cabels, RFC/Mattisse, etc. and finally an Arbitration that there was a gang of sock puppets with the sole aim of harassing me and driving away me and anyone else who tried to edit articles that the sockpuppets controlled. I searched for help for this but received only more harassment from admins and organizations purported to help people like me, such as the Mediation Cabal and AMA - which was finally closed down due to ineptness and wikilawyering. (One of the AMA people wikilawyered a sockpuppet off the hook in Arbitration.) The sockpuppet ring was discovered by Blnguyen (bananabucket), originally an Arbitrator who recused himself from the Arbitration and set about ferreting out this ring which had been ongoing since fall of 2006 at least. There is no protection on Wikipedia for people like me, no sources of help and strategy, and only the goodness of Blnguyen (bananabucket) saved me from the nut house. The sockpuppets have all been banned or suspended indefinitely and I have no trouble at present.

Now that I know that these sockpuppet rings are common on Wikipedia and some are even comprised of admins, I am extremely careful what I edit. I mostly don't stick with any one article.I have learned that the Arbitrators are no better and openly show their biases. As I cannot withstand such months of persecution again, I mostly write my own articles to avoid this problem. I have come to believe that "good work" is not the aim of Wikipedia but rather the pure exercise of power and control of articles and subject matter by those editor sockpuppets and editor tag teams with investments in article outcome. I just play around now for my own joy and try to stay away from articles of serious content and from other editors, excepting you, of course! I don't take Wikipedia seriously anymore but rather accept that it is corrupt. (I was naive before.) I think Jimbo's behavior says it all and I am deeply disturbed by the way Zleitzen^(talk) is being treated after all the excellent work he has contributed to Wikipedia. Sincerely, Mattisse 14:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

p.s. I think Che Guevara is ruined now and I am so sad for Zleitzen^(talk). But anyone who tries to stand up on principle here is headed for despair. Sincerely, Mattisse 14:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Indo-Bangladeshi barrier

Hello there Mattisse. I'm The Random Editor. I can see we are both interested in helping to build the above article. I noticed when running over the sources. They all refer to the barrier being 4000km and the article mentions it being 3200km something. I was just wondering if you know which one is correct. I suspect the article is probably wrong but I wanted to check with you first. Thanks, --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (ταlκ) 23:15, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your evaluation of the numbers. We should use the figures referenced in the sources. We need more information. I am interested in helping to build Indo-Bangladeshi barrier but I am afraid I know little about the subject and will have to learn! My original involvement was purely a rescue job but now I find the content extremely interesting. Sincerely, Mattisse 15:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Inactive

Are you inactive? That sure is strange!?! I don't know why you find me considering myself new to wikipedia that "strange" or why you care, though I'm touched a bit...oh, and I am female, by the way, and go by "she" :) Fmehdi 18:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Hells Canyon

Thanks for the fixups. Nice work! —EncMstr 16:26, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing! I appreciate your taking the time to do so. --Mattisse 18:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Guitar_slim_promo_art.jpg

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Boudhanath

Well, I certainly don't want to argue either. But these very old stupas are well known in Buddhism and are always referred to by the site name. Another example is Swayambhunath. In both cases, the name without stupa added is the actual name of the site and is how they are referred to in the relevant literature. IPSOS (talk) 17:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I believe that these old stupas were viewed as personages, and that the Nath suffix actually is referring to them as temples by calling them "Lord". (Of course, I am sure you know that stupas are reliquary shrines and that the power of the Buddha or teacher whose relics are enshrined there are considered to make them functional.) Thus, I believe that adding stupa is redundant, like saying Boudha Temple Temple. IPSOS (talk) 17:35, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Google does show that the reference without stupa is by far the most common. See [14] (17,800) vs. [15] (52,900). Even subtracting them still leaves 35,100 vs. 17,800. IPSOS (talk) 17:38, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, you are probably right in the general case for stupas, but there are several well-known exceptions which are simply referred to by the site name. IPSOS (talk) 17:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the info

Hey, thanks for the info. I saw the ban notice on 999's page and just stopped there. In any case, I'll just let the admins investigate and determine what should be done now. IPSOS (talk) 21:43, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Although, if you know something about either of these users, you might want to add this info at WP:AN/I#Banned_User:999_back_causing_disruption_by_nominating_multiple_articles_for_deletion where I've reported the incident. IPSOS (talk) 22:18, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Orion (mythology)

Hi, Mattisse. You might like to cast your eyes over Orion (mythology) which is currently going for FA but in need of a copy edit.

It looks like the reappearance of 999 was a result of a accidental cut and paste, so no need to worry. --Salix alba (talk) 08:32, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, perhaps you could talk me into the copy edit. Right now the article does not seem innately interesting. It seems poorly organised and poorly written. Also, there are so many copy editing problems that I am surprised it has not gotten harsher treatment from FAR. There seems to be an "owner" of the article so I would hesitate to wade into possible hostility by making many changes. (Remember, Pigman almost had a nervous breakdown.) Could you explain more clearly what it is you are asking me to do? Sincerely, Mattisse 12:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I am in fact much obliged to you, and hope you will continue; I may, like Pharos, disagree in detail. In fact, citing Liberalis by chapter is the standard method; but it does no harm to clarify the reference, as I have now done. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:16, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

• I've added a note about your paragraphing, which seems unmotivated, to the talk page. It may not be ideal to have a simple list of modern interpretations; but they are important, and should be mentioned.

I don't see how to avoid the list. To attempt to synthesize the moderns would be OR, in the absence of a survey article on this subject. Even if there were one, experience suggests that it would be special pleading, and that would be worse. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I thank you for what you have done; and if you see more, feel free. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:47, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I said I didn't understand one set of paragraph breaks. I also corrected one astronomical error, which probably demonstrates that the text you copyedited was ambiguous. Why do you suppose I want your copyedit thrown out the window? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Because you have been singularly critical and unappreciative of the massive amount of work I put into your article. The only feedback I have received from you and your other editor who apparently WP:OWN the article has been unpleasant and snide. You have given me no indication that you approved of anything I did. I have every reason to believe you do not value my contributions and want the article reverted. Regards, Mattisse 11:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate the copyedit; I am grateful for it. I have said so repeatedly, including immediately above. Does this mean that Pharos and I cannot emend the 5% where the copy-edit has slipped into error of fact, and question another 5% where we do not immediately comprehend your choices? Whatever I have said about it that appears brusque or personal, it was not so intended; and I regret whatever it was. Now, can we have a nice cup of tea, and start over? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to start over and am unhappy over what this situation has become. And I fully expected you to emend my copy edit as I clearly knew nothing about the subject matter so of course I would make outlandish mistakes. I'm just not used to the rather blaming sounding edit summaries. Maybe I have been overprotected so far. Add something to the poor Scholartis Press I started solely for your article as a peace offering! Sincerely, Mattisse 20:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks back

I appreciate your appreciation. :-) IPSOS (talk) 15:31, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Re: my 2 cents

I took it off because I was about to reedit it when something else came up and I had to deal with it. I will try to paste and copy it back onto Gatadocs site. I think that everything will work out in time. I think that Gatadoc may be feeling the stress as well. I think things will work out as long as everyone involved remains calm and committed. I am a bit of a newbie and a 2 finger typer. I would offer to help out but my knowledge of Che is comparatively marginal. Anyway that is what happened and I hope my explanation helps. Albion moonlight 16:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer. I appreciate it. It is true that I am totally stressed out. (By the way, my knowledge of Che is comparatively marginal also, so don't let that stop you. I'm just pretty good at finding sources!) Thanks, Mattisse 16:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I will continue to watch for now but thanks for the encouragement. I may join in at a later date. Albion moonlight 16:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

single-subheading headings

I think I see what you're saying. Got one or two examples? Then you could raise your proposal at MOS talk with a view to gaining consensus for the insertion of a recommendation or rule. Tony 04:11, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Of the current FAC, the following articles have one or more:

• Uranus
• Sarah Churchill, Duchess of Marlborough
• Homer Simpson
• King Crimson
• William Shakespeare
• Titanic DVD releases
• Oklahoma
• The Real Adventures of Jonny Quest
• Halfbeak
• Kirby (Nintendo)
• World Community Grid
• Mary: A Fiction
• Hispanic Americans in World War II
• Battle of Ramillies
• Pio of Pietrelcina
• Pearl Jam
• Monte Ne
• Sinhala alphabet
• Bratislava
• Isle of Portland - under External links only so . . .
• Thomas Cranmer
• Typhoon Pongsona
• Peter Canavan
• SR West Country and Battle of Britain Classes
• Kingdom Hearts II

Mattisse 12:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Tong Guan

Hi Mattisse, thank you for all of your work on the Song Dynasty article, it looks much more polished because of your efforts. As for Tong Guan, I have a scholarly source on him that I can use to expand his article. Thanks for the heads up.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 16:19, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm....

So you think that Kephera975 may have included 999 in the sockpuppet accusation against JMax555 simply to throw us off the scent, and that that comment which turned out to be cut and pasted from something on Kephera975's talk page is actually significant? I take it you have experience with the previous case? I've been recommending that people add their observations directly to the cases rather than my talk page. So if you think this is pertinent to the Kephera975 case, could you add it to Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Kephera975, please? I can't really be adding stuff secondhand. IPSOS (talk) 01:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don't care much about all those old socks. Since they were all blocked months ago, there is no chance that there would be any data on them. However, I found the info about matching hiatuses very interesting and added it to the report. I went a bit further because while looking at it I discovered that they both made exactly 14 edits in May 2007. And guess what, more than a third of those edits for each was to the dab at the top of Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. How likely is that? IPSOS (talk) 14:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi

Hello my dear friend, Its been long since I heard from you. How are you doing with wiki now? I hope you will be back fully very soon. I was too busy with some other research works and educational activity. If you get time, read my web page especially the articles nearer to the bottom. Let me have your comments. Samir

Hi, where is your web page? I don't have the address. It is very good to hear from you! Sincerely, Mattisse 15:01, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

My web page -samir

My web page is at www.samirhossain.org Regards Samir

Thanks! It looks good. I have it bookmarked now. Sincerely, Mattisse 19:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

First rock and roll record

I see you've tagged this article, which I've been working on intermittently. I fully accept the points that there is a need for restructuring the article, and for references throughout - but, before I launch into doing that (which I may not be able to start for a couple of weeks), is there any other advice you'd like to offer ? As it's a particular area of interest of mine, I'd be more than happy to work collaboratively on this to get it to a higher standard. Ghmyrtle 16:34, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

It is an interest of mine also. I have lots of books that may provide good references. Thinking about the structure of the article, you have it arranged chronologically and that is probably the way to go (since there is no clear cut beginning). The organization looks basically good. It just needs to be in a narrative style with reference citations. Sincerely, Mattisse 16:48, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't involved with the original article structure, and I'll give it some more thought now. I'd be slightly concerned if, in trying to get away from the list format, we lose useful information, but if the chronological aspect is maintained in some form it should be OK. For instance, I wouldn't want to categorize the article into "blues" and "swing" sections, when much of the interest in the article is in permitting the reader to infer how they may have influenced each other through the passage of time. Ghmyrtle 17:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know too much about the types of lists Wikipedia tolerates. Perhaps it could be organized as a "timeline" or some thing along those lines. Maybe there is a list format that would accommodate it. All I know is that Wikipedia considers articles with too many lists as "unencyclopedic" unless it is an outright list. Sincerely, Mattisse 17:15, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Check this out: Wikipedia:Lists. Maybe it will help. Mattisse 17:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. A timeline is an excellent idea if I can track down the format. Must log off now. Ghmyrtle 17:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

And check this: Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists). Mattisse 17:24, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Well...I've been busy. See what you think (so far...!) Ghmyrtle 10:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Just be sure you follow Wikipedia:Lists and Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists) and, of course, the Wikipedia:Manual of Style. Just so you know, there is a discussion going on over whether a quoted passage should be allowed at the start of an article. Some think it is tacky. For a list, the criteria is stricter. Also, the word "arguably" is to be avoided for stylistic reasons, if you should ever go for Featured List status. Sincerely, Mattisse 22:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)