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Notice

I have requested an evaluation of your conduct here:[1]. Lightbreather (talk) 19:56, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Lightbreather, In the past bit you have created 2 threads at AE, 4-5? threads at ANI, a thread at AN, Multiple posts on various noticeboards and wikiprojects, plus complained directly to multiple admins. People may be jerks, and may be being mean to you. But if the previous dozen-ish threads haven't gotten traction, piling on another one is unlikely to help, and it is likely to alienate more editors who could be helping you. There is stuff to criticize in other's behavior, but there is also stuff to criticize in YOUR behavior, and you have repeatedly failed to WP:HEAR the good advice given to you by many uninvolved editors and admins. "first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye" - Asking to be "left alone" and have other's not to comment on you, while simultaneously writing an essay attacking Sue Rangell (User:Lightbreather/sandbox/Vigilantism) an editor you have had significant conflict with, seems a bit tone deaf to me. To paraphrase the very good advice someone else gave you - go edit some articles and stop paying attention to the buzzing flies. (No attack intended against the buzzing flies) Gaijin42 (talk) 20:01, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Gaijin, although I have thanked you in the past for your clarification on some things - especially WP jargon - I think an editor who has been topic-banned for incivility and personal attacks,[2] isn't going to be my first choice in matters of how to handle feelings (with evidence) that I'm being attacked and/or harassed. Also, the essay you point to is an unfinished draft based on behaviors that I've observed among some editors, not just by one. Lightbreather (talk) 20:16, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Civility and PA conversation

@DangerousPanda, Gerda Arendt, and HiLo48, Sorry for the odd nature of this discussion, but I wanted to include everyone and facilitate conversation if needed. So that you understand that nature of Lightbreather's attitudes and efforts I wanted to let you know that before archiving the discussion on her Talk page, she modified (some might call it censorship or revisionism) the text to remove your final comments [3]. I can't say that I know or even understand the motive for this, but I've added it back in the archive here with what I consider an appropriate edit summary. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 16:05, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't see the issue. It's forever in the history of her talkpage. Removal of a message is tacit acceptance that the message was read. Hopefully she takes the advice - it would be a shame for her to start being considered disruptive because she refused to read the real definition of a personal attack, and went off and did something silly. She's been handed the tools, she's no longer unaware of the policy and how it reads - her own next steps will make the difference in her future on Wikipedia the panda ₯’ 16:13, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough, I agree with your assessment and the action seemed minor, but I just wanted those involved to know about it. In a conversation that stemmed from a discussion of Civility, it seemed a little hypocritical... :) --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 16:28, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for attending to it. I am quite used to being not understood ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:17, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

YW :) --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 16:28, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

YW? - English is not my first language, I am known for taking things too literally, and for asking the meaning of abbreviations. (Once, the question could only be answered by email ;) ) - I saw on Lightbreather's talk that she wanted to be left alone, however I thought if there's a major misunderstanding that I could help clarifying I could at last try. A personal attack is directed at a single person. I confess that I prefer to be insulted personally to possibly be included in a group which is described with negative attributes, and if you complain you hear "I didn't mean you". (I have some red scars on my user page.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:02, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

My apologies, I did not know. YW is an abbreviation for "You are welcome" or "You're welcome". And I agree with your assessment of the situation. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 17:08, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Dammit, Scal, I've asked you this mutliple times now: If you're going to talk about me, take it to the appropriate forum. And notify ME that you're talking about me, so that I can defend myself. Quit gossiping about me. Quit harassing me. You told me yourself, barely two weeks ago that my talk page is mine to deal with.[4] What's more, you weren't involved in that conversation. I only replied to HiLo's request (which he chose to give a very uncivil discussion header[5]) because he posted it on my talk page. When we started rehashing what has already been discussed in several related discussions, I asked him to leave me alone.[6] I removed what was said, by himself and others, after that because - again - it was just rehashing the same arguments and was feeling more like harassment to me than conversation. Scalhotrod, quit following me around, leave me alone. If you have a complaint re: my behavior, gather your evidence and take it to the appropriate forum. Quit talking about me behind my back. Lightbreather (talk) 18:46, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Nobody is required to advise you when they're talking about you, EXCEPT when specific incidents are being raised at an admin noticeboard. Your accusations are becoming disruptive as they are wholly inappropriate the panda ₯’ 18:58, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Get more specific, DP. Which Disruptive editing subsection applies? Lightbreather (talk) 19:15, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

All of it. You continue to make false accusations of personal attacks, while ignoring ANYONE who actually shows you that you're mistaken on what the policy says. That's inappropriate, and actionable. I see you refused to respond to the AN you opened, and now it's closed. Further harassment of people who have the right to discuss their concerns on how you appear to have gone off-the-rails is unacceptable. the panda ₯’ 19:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

All of it? It is almost, if not entirely, to do with conduct in the mainspace. And I "continue to make false accusations"? What above is a false accusation? Where did I mention personal attacks? I mentioned harassment. They're separate policies. Lightbreather (talk) 19:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to pretend I was invited to this conversation: Scalhotrod, sorry, but I think it's very inappropriate of you to be editing the talk page/archive of someone with whom you have such disagreements. The appropriate thing to have done, if anything had to be done in the first place, would be to notify an administrator. And this discussion, again, sorry, but I find this (pace the Panda and Hell in a Bucket's comments) a bit unseemly. I wouldn't call a roundtable on my own talk page to discuss someone else's behavior; it's quite different, at least in tone, from bringing up some matter on an admin's talk page, for instance, or a notice board. I don't want to call Lightbreather a bear, but what you're doing resembles the poking of one. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 19:32, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Drmies, its a fair observation. I made the edit with the clear intention that the entire conversation should be archived, not just what LB preferred to keep. As for any "poking", I'm just tired of being on the receiving end of LB's vitriole that seems to be based on personal bias versus anything concrete. I'm not doing anything "to her" other than shining a light on her actions for others to be aware of. As for the "round table", that was just a practical decision. Since I was starting it, it seemed to make sense to do it on my page versus Panda or another Admins. If bringing it up on an Admin's page and alerting others would have been the better route, then I apologize for that choice.

This started when LB made a personal attack, twice, on me during the ARE proceeding; and it was ignored even when I asked about it. Its since been alluded to when I added myself to the Gender Gap Task Force [7].

If ceasing to talk about, near, in reference to, or anywhere in the neighborhood of LB will suddenly make her less tendentious, then I'll stop immediately. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 19:54, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I kinda agree with Drmies. Under WP:TPG one can never change the meaning of others' comments. But under the WP:OWNTALK portion of the TPG one can delete or archive others' intact comments however one wishes. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:45, 28 July 2014 (UTC) I also agree with Scalhotrod, that there was no requirement to notify Lightbreather of this thread; though I always try to do that unless I am thinking about WP:AllegingIncompetence.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

There are a few restrictions. Things shouldn't be put in a different light by omission of comments; my rule of thumb is you shouldn't remove something from the middle of a thread or, to keep it more simple, you can't remove a comment once it's been responded to unless you remove everything that follows--on your own talk page, that is. On article talk you can't ever remove someone else's comments as long as those comments are valid (not soapboxing, etc.). But regardless of the merits of the removal or the restoration in this case, why would person a do that to person b if a and b have been before ArbCom and have duked it out often enough? It's not wise. Drmies (talk) 19:49, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Did we just hear a proposal for a voluntary interaction ban? If that happens I suggest you include an agreed duration. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:58, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't "Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page. Striking text constitutes a change in meaning, and should only be done by the user who wrote it or someone acting at their explicit request." from TPG cover what I did? Or should I just have reported LB for it instead of making the change restoration myself? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 20:00, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Although it is ambiguous, I read that as saying inline striking or removing, not wholesale removal of a comment from one's talkpage. Although perhaps not in the full spirit of discussion, LB is indeed not under any obligation to leave comments up from someone on their talkpage, even if those comments are part of a larger conversation, and she leaves other parts up. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:12, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I guess I was reading it from the perspective of the entire conversation versus a specific comment, so I see your point. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 20:16, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

This and other actions of the past week are evidence of harassment, and I would surely appreciate it if someone would re-open the request for evaluation that I started at ANI so that there is an audit trail, so to speak, not only of the behavior, but of my strong, and IMO justified, objection to it. Lightbreather (talk) 20:23, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

WP:RFC/U if you feel so inclined. I've considered starting one on you, to be honest...the fact that you showed up here is proof that you are harassing/stalking...remember that. So, you really don't want that ANI re-opened, as your behaviour will be investigated, and right now your behaviour is blockable the panda ₯’ 20:26, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• I don't know if there's a log that can confirm this, but at 20:52:52 Wikipedia time, I took Lightbreather's Talk page off my Watch list. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 20:56, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for inviting me here Scalhotrod. It's been sleep time in the part of the world where my Wikipedia minority lives. (Pretty sure there's fewer Australians than women.) I don't need to add anything, except an observation from another place that among Lightbreather's list of acceptable words is "bullshit". That being a word for which I've been condemned here in the past, that's pretty common where I live and, no matter how hard I try to please the conservatives here, does slip off my tongue and keyboard at times. I'm now feeling much better. Keep up the good work. HiLo48 (talk) 21:02, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I seem to be doing this a lot lately, but my apologies for involving you in the drama between LB and myself. Thank you for your comments and I wish you well. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 21:08, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Re an earlier comment, and at this point it may be academic, but since you ask about TPG, under the permitted reasons for editing others comments at WP:TPO Simply deleting others' comments on your talk page is permitted, but most editors prefer archiving. and then at WP:OWNTALK Users may freely remove comments from their own talk pages, though archiving is preferred.. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:25, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I guess what I found odd about edit that prompted my action (the restoration of text that was missing from an archived discussion) is that LB actually deleted part of text, comments from several Editors, and then moved what was left of the conversation to her archive.[8][9][10][11][12] I restored it and then started this discussion. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 21:42, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Sophie Dahl

With respect, I don't think I have seen anything quite so ridiculous in all my life. Needless to say, I have reverted you. Cassianto^talk 21:55, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Can't disagree, but its been a busy day (scroll up a bit). I'll add them back when I have time to properly fill them out. Thank you for noticing... :) --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 22:01, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, so I see; bigger fish and all that. However, I really wouldn't bother. Infoboxes are neither required nor prohibited for any article, and I think in this case, one would be completely redundant as everything is contained nicely in the lede. Cassianto^talk 22:10, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, I do see your point, and not that I'm trying to "muck up" the layout or anything, but I do value the purpose of Infoboxes. In this age of Google searches and wanting instant gratification, they provide quick access to information. Plus its an easy place to add a photo, which as a notable former model I feel that Dahl is deserving of her image on WP. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 22:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Precious

banjo bands
Thank you, advanced banjo player, for quality articles, working on the List of banjo players, such as Charlie Tagawa, for diplomacy, "conservata veritate" and "I do value the purpose of Infoboxes", - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:27, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! :) --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 16:20, 29 July 2014 (UTC)