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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete. There seem to be several suggestions around merging, renaming, etc.; I need not decide which if any of these has consensus as this can be taken up on the article talk page or resolved under WP:BB . Stifle (talk) 15:31, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Peshawar (1758)

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Battle of Peshawar (1758) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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There seems to be some doubt about many of the sources, others do not seem to even mention this battle. Does it in fact have more than one line in any of these sources, was this a major battle? Slatersteven (talk) 11:58, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hell many of them seem to just list it as one of a number of cities captured, so was there even battle?Slatersteven (talk) 12:09, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So (and let me get this straight, they attacked 3 cities all at once and fought one battle between them that lasted a month? No they are not, they are talking about a campighn where 3 cities were captured, that does not mean there was a battle there (read wp:or). In fact this whole article looks like, ORSlatersteven (talk) 11:28, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The source above says Emperor's son and Jahan Khan had retreated to Peshawar, after seige of Sirhindh in March and Lahore was captured in April. And Peshawar also was overrun by Marathas in May. I was able to verify one more source now using google search, [3][1] I have added the exact quotes with page numbers now. Crashed greek (talk) 11:43, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Also nominator is now trying to move the article to Capture of Peshwawar (1758), after nominating here for deletion. He is trying multiple things with the same article to see which one works. Crashed greek (talk) 10:48, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    No, I said that as there does not appear to have been a battle (and no source says there was one) even as a redirect we would have to use what people would be looking for, which is the capture of the city.Slatersteven (talk) 11:26, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The one source clearly said it as battle has been called as disputed using a wikipedia essay. Essays are not wikipedia policies. You have sided with that claim without any justifications. Other sources mention Peshawar fort as attacked, overrun. That is not the same as captured as you claim. Crashed greek (talk) 11:46, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    As I recall the source did not say it was a battle they just gave the date it had been captured. Would you care to provide a quote from an RS that says there was a battle THERE? Using the word Battle or similar termSlatersteven (talk) 12:09, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Attacked and overrun is similar term to a battle. Northwest Froniter is the region for which Peshwawar fort is the capital. Sources are clear Crashed greek (talk) 05:33, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Another source [4] uses words "defeated and captured", which means a battle. Crashed greek (talk) 06:01, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Battle is used in the sense of war or combat which takes place between two armies in a battlefield due to conflict. Whereas Attack is violent or aggressive act that cause harm to the other. So from the sources, the battle actually took place at a different city/town/location, likely Sirhind, where Afghans were defeated and as a result, Timur Shah and Jahan Khan fled to Peshawar. But after finding out that the army of Maratha and the Sikhs is in hot pursuit, they vacated and fled from Peshawar, and thus the fort of Peshawar was attacked and captured. There was no battle in/at Peshawar nor does the attack define it as a battle. If there was a Battle, any sources would clearly state it. It was simply capture. MehmoodS (talk) 11:00, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    They can also mean in a war or campaign. That is why it is OR to say this was a battle. You are using wp:synthesis to draw conclusions not stated EXPLICITLY in the sources.Slatersteven (talk) 11:05, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ a b Barua, Pradeep (2005). The state at war in South Asia. University of Nebraska Press. p. 55. ISBN 9780803213449. The Marathas attacked soon after and, with some help from the Sikhs, managed to capture Attock, Peshawar, and Multan between April and May 1758.
  2. ^ War, Culture and Society in Early Modern South Asia, 1740-1849
  3. ^ Mehta, Jaswant Lal (2005). Advanced Study in the History of Modern India 1707-1813. New Dawn Press, Incorporated. p. 256. ISBN 9781932705546. "The province of Multan and northwest frontier were also overrun by Marathas and the forts of Peshawar and Attock were garrisoned by their troops"
  4. ^ Conflict and Conquest in the Islamic World: A Historical Encyclopedia [2 Volumes] By Alexander Mikaberidze https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/Conflict_and_Conquest_in_the_Islamic_Wor/jBBYD2J2oE4C?hl=en&gbpv=1 Page 43 "The Marathas, assisted by Sikhs, defeated the Afghans and captured Attock, Peshwar and Multan in the spring of 1758.
  • Delete I am the one who tagged the article for WP:PROD a few months back and discussed on talk page as well. There is not a single reliable source that mentions any battle taking place at peshawar. Even redirect to Capture of Peshawar is not helpful because, there is hardly any source which says Peshawar was captured. Most of the historians that mention Maratha invasion of Punjab do not even mention Peshawar except some hyper nationalists authors. Even if we accept dubious claim of capturing Peshawar (not battle), there is no need for a separate article whose authenticity is in question and best can be merged with Maratha conquest of North-west India. The user crshed greek who commented above for keeping the article tried multiple times engaging me in an edit war to keep such dubious source which is listed in WP:PUS. After exhaustion, I let go of the matter. Anyway, I strongly suggest for deletion of the page or least merging it with Maratha conquest page. Hiensrt (talk) 06:28, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Multiple shources say that Peshawar was recaptured by afghan emperor and maratha empire suffering casualties there before proceeding to the famous battle of Panipat. That means it was indeed captured by marathas. Also sources say that maratha empire had garrisoned their troops in Peshawar fort. At least one foreign author has cleaely told that peshawar was captured, whichihave quoted here. So no need to bring nationalism, islamism, communism etc here. You have gone offline and this new user MehmoodS has surfaced. You have voted as delete here, but he has refrained from voting here. Crashed greek (talk) 10:24, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually he did say merge, he has just not bolded it. Also, if it is was recaptured, that would be irrelevant as it does not seem to be the battle you are referring to, which its original capture (again we go back to a kind of WP:SYNTHESIS) even if A battle was fought there at some point it does not mean it was this one. And again capture and battle are not synonymous, many cities surrender without a fight.Slatersteven (talk) 10:49, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep (possibly renamed). Maratha conquest of North-west India has a paragraph on the relevant events, which makes clear that Peshawar changed hands twice. I would suggest that the title might be something live Peshawar in the Maratha War. I presume there are sources which may provide more detail than is in Maratha conquest of North-west India. There is a certain class of WP editor who seem to want to make everything a battle, so that they can use a battlebox. Sometimes towns will be surrendered because they are untenable, the forces that were in possession being allowed to retreat in safety. Peterkingiron (talk) 21:54, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That page is also citing the same source, this page has. While the tertiary work is useful but in this case it is propagating the same boast which is doubted by many. Here [1] Please read footnote on page 76 of the book i provided. This book "Fall of Mughal Empire" is written by eminent historian Jadunath Sarkar and his whole work is based on primary sources, he is stating that maratha standard over Attock is a mere boast and no maratha soldier crossed even Chenab river. Remember Attock is further west on Indus river and Peshawar is still west to that so their claim of going upto even Attock is doubted let alone Peshawar. Another book I am citing here is "Punjab: A history from Aurangzeb to Mountbatten" by Rajmohan Gandhi. On page no 103 it is written that, "Though the claim that their standard was raised on the walls of Attock on the Indus's eastern shore has been disputed, the Marathas, led by Raghunath Rao and aided by the Sikhs and by Adina, had pushed the Afghans out of India. However, Raghunath Rao did not pursue the Afghans beyond Chenab. He returned to Lahore, as did Adina." So here too it is stated that even raising their flag on east bank of Indus is disputed by historian let alone crossing Indus and then going upto peshawar. One more writer Khshwant Singh in History of Sikhs, states, "As the Sikh and Maratha armies crossed the Sutlej, Jahan Khan, who was in the Jullundur Doab, hastily retired to Lahore. A few days later the entire Afghan army vacated the city and was in full retreat across the Ravi. Raghu Nath Rao entered Lahore in April 1758. Adina Beg Khan feted him at the Shalamar Gardens and had the city illuminated in his honour. While the festivities were going on in Lahore, Sikh and Maratha cavalry went in pursuit of the Afghan prince and his commander-in-chief. Taimur and Jahan Khan barely escaped with their lives when crossing the Chenab near Wazirabad. Their rearguard and heavy baggage were captured and brought back to Lahore. The Sikhs took the Afghan prisoners to Amritsar and made them clean up the pool around the Harimandir. The Marathas returned to Delhi the richer by several crores. Adina Beg Khan got what he wanted: the subedarī of the Punjab at seventy-five lacs of rupees a year to be paid to the Marathas." It is clear that even the maratha boast of reaching Attock is doubtful let alone Peshawar which is still far away from there. Hiensrt (talk) 10:02, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 08:14, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Marathas reaching even till Attock is doubtful and disputed, let alone crossing Indus and reaching Peshawar.

1. First source: Eminent Historian Jadunath Sarkar's magnum opus in four volumes, "Fall of Mughal Empire", Here is the link for second volume [2], please see page 75-76 and footnote on page 76 of the book. He is stating that maratha standard over Attock is a mere boast and no maratha soldier crossed even Chenab river. Remember Attock is further west on Indus river and Peshawar is still west to that so their claim of going upto even Attock is doubted let alone Peshawar. 2. Another source I "Punjab: A history from Aurangzeb to Mountbatten" by Rajmohan Gandhi. On page no 103 it is written that, "Though the claim that their standard was raised on the walls of Attock on the Indus's eastern shore has been disputed, the Marathas, led by Raghunath Rao and aided by the Sikhs and by Adina, had pushed the Afghans out of India. However, Raghunath Rao did not pursue the Afghans beyond Chenab. He returned to Lahore, as did Adina." 3. Another writer Khushwant Singh in History of Sikhs, states, "As the Sikh and Maratha armies crossed the Sutlej, Jahan Khan, who was in the Jullundur Doab, hastily retired to Lahore. A few days later the entire Afghan army vacated the city and was in full retreat across the Ravi. Raghu Nath Rao entered Lahore in April 1758. Adina Beg Khan feted him at the Shalamar Gardens and had the city illuminated in his honour. While the festivities were going on in Lahore, Sikh and Maratha cavalry went in pursuit of the Afghan prince and his commander-in-chief. Taimur and Jahan Khan barely escaped with their lives when crossing the Chenab near Wazirabad. Their rearguard and heavy baggage were captured and brought back to Lahore. The Sikhs took the Afghan prisoners to Amritsar and made them clean up the pool around the Harimandir. The Marathas returned to Delhi the richer by several crores. Adina Beg Khan got what he wanted: the subedarī of the Punjab at seventy-five lacs of rupees a year to be paid to the Marathas." It is clear that even the maratha boast of reaching Attock is doubtful let alone reaching Peshawar which is still far away from there. And fighting a battle there is not found in any source whatsoever except one random source provided by one editor, that source is listed in WP:PUS. All three writers I provided here are quite known and have wikipedia pages. Since I already voted for Delete before, so wrote comment while adding these sources, my vote is still Delete.Hiensrt (talk) 10:13, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The book you quoted of Rajmohan's year 2013 book is not searcheable on google, so it has failed the verification. You are also not quoting exact sentences from books, so your sentences would be WP:OR. But multiple books say opposite of what you are stating. Crashed greek (talk) 15:18, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wp:v has nothing to say about access, in fact, quite the opposite. It only has to be verifiable by those who have access.Slatersteven (talk) 15:42, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Moments after I had told [3] that some sources added by others I could not search on google books, you had tagged [4] those sources as failed verification in the article. But here you are stating the opposite. Crashed greek (talk) 06:08, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I did not tag them because I could not read them, I read them. I just did not conclude that they were not talking about a battle.Slatersteven (talk) 13:21, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The book of Rajmohan Gandhi is available on google books, here is the link [5], it is just that, its content is not accesible. I don't know why you are making things up, I quoted exact wordings from the book as it appears on Page no 103. I don't think you understand what failed verification and WP:OR means. Besides there is one more book Forgotten Mughals by G.S. Cheema, here is google book link [6], in the book on the page no 294, it is stated, "After their easy success at Sirhind, the Marathas advanced further, the Afghans evacuating the Bist Doab and, on 19 April, Lahore as well. The forces of Prince Timur were weak, and the Lahore fort in disrepair; so the viceroy evacuated the Punjab rapidly without risking another engage ment. The Deccani cavalry chased them as far as the Indus, but they did not try to cross the river, the traditional border of the Indian world. Nor do they ever appear to have ever garrisoned the fort of Attock which presumably remained in Durrani hands. But for a few months at least, the whole of Punjab including Multan, was dominated by the Marathas and their Sikh allies." Here also the author is clearly saying they did not cross Indus river, Peshawar is of course beyond Indus, let alone Indus, he is also saying that Attock fort was under Durrani forces and was not occupied by Marathas.
  • comment Here I am adding all four sources I provided above in citation form, all pf which talk about Maratha campaign in Punjab and states unequivocally that Maratha armies didn't cross the Indus river, almost every source is denying even occupation of Attock, let alone Peshawar.[1][2][3][4]}}

Hiensrt (talk) 16:39, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Cheema, G.S. The Forgotten Mughals: A History of the Later Emperors of the House of Babar, 1707-1857. p. 294. After their easy success at Sirhind, the Marathas advanced further, the Afghans evacuating the Bist Doab and, on 19 April, Lahore as well. The forces of Prince Timur were weak, and the Lahore fort in disrepair; so the viceroy evacuated the Punjab rapidly without risking another engage ment. The Deccani cavalry chased them as far as the Indus, but they did not try to cross the river, the traditional border of the Indian world. Nor do they ever appear to have ever garrisoned the fort of Attock which presumably remained in Durrani hands. But for a few months at least, the whole of Punjab including Multan, was dominated by the Marathas and their Sikh allies.
  2. ^ Singh, Khushwant. A History of the Sikhs: Volume 1: 1469-1838. pp. 142–143. As the Sikh and Maratha armies crossed the Sutlej, Jahan Khan, who was in the Jullundur Doab, hastily retired to Lahore. A few days later the entire Afghan army vacated the city and was in full retreat across the Ravi. Raghu Nath Rao entered Lahore in April 1758. Adina Beg Khan feted him at the Shalamar Gardens and had the city illuminated in his honour. While the festivities were going on in Lahore, Sikh and Maratha cavalry went in pursuit of the Afghan prince and his commander-in-chief. Taimur and Jahan Khan barely escaped with their lives when crossing the Chenab near Wazirabad. Their rearguard and heavy baggage were captured and brought back to Lahore. The Sikhs took the Afghan prisoners to Amritsar and made them clean up the pool around the Harimandir. The Marathas returned to Delhi the richer by several crores. Adina Beg Khan got what he wanted: the subedarī of the Punjab at seventy-five lacs of rupees a year to be paid to the Marathas.
  3. ^ Gandhi, Rajmohan. Punjab: A History from Aurangzeb to Mountbatten. Aleph Book Company. p. 103. ISBN 978-93-82277-58-3. Though the claim that their standard was raised on the walls of Attock on the Indus's eastern shore has been disputed, the Marathas, led by Raghunath Rao and aided by the Sikhs and by Adina, had pushed the Afghans out of India. However, Raghunath Rao did not pursue the Afghans beyond Chenab. He returned to Lahore, as did Adina.
  4. ^ Sarkar, Jadunath (1934). Fall Of The Mughal Empire Vol.2. The Marathas did not venture to carry the war across the Chenab, because the river was too deep for fording and the country beyond it was mostly tenanted by Afghan supporters of the Durrāni cause.......*Not a single Maratha soldier crossed the Chenab. The assertion that the Maratha standards were carried up to the Indus at Attock, is an ignorant boast.
There are numerous sources otherwise who mention the capture of Attock, Peshawar and Multan like the ones listed on the article, particularly the reliable ones. Singh's source doesn't make any such statements. Whereas Jadunath's view has been refuted by many historians during his time and the modern historians and scholars after. Hari Ram Gupta, an imminent scholar has stated in his book History of the Sikhs vol 2 as well as Marathas and Panipat about the Capture of Peshawar. Due to numerous sources in particularly by reliable citations, its concluded that there was a Capture and not a Battle of Peshawar in 1758. MehmoodS (talk) 14:22, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect/Merge Adding my decision in bold. Reliable sources mention the event as "Capture" as a result of the battle that took place in different location. Repeating what I mentioned earlier: "Change the title to Capture of Peshawar (1758), delete the page and direct the title to another page suitable for it." MehmoodS (talk) 16:04, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect/Merge There's very little about any so-called battle here, nothing that can't be covered in another article. FDW777 (talk) 12:18, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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