Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Burial places of founders of world religions

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. J04n(talk page) 11:50, 30 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Burial places of founders of world religions

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This page is here since 2006. There are lot of problems with the article. There is a lack of references in the article. The article subject is unclear and confusing. First, what is World religion and what should be covered? Subsects and branches are unclear. Should they covered or not? The article lists Christian Science separately! Are Ahmadiyya Muslim? Article lists them separately. While Hinduism only lists Krishna. Is Krishna founder of Hinduism? The founders are all these religions or religious groups are not clear either. Some of them are mythical while some of them are historical and some can not be clearly identified such as in case of Hinduism. The article assumes that all such founders are buried and thus they must have "Burial place". It is not true. Several religious traditions do not bury dead. For example Buddhism. The final resting places are also controversial in many cases and historians do not agree about them. The subject itself is not narrow enough and clear. The information in the article is very poor with little hope of improvement. The article has been here since 2006 with not much improvement either. There are lot of issues and questions posted on its talkpage over the years. Nizil (talk) 12:03, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. Nizil (talk) 12:15, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Hinduism-related deletion discussions. Nizil (talk) 12:17, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Nizil (talk) 12:17, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Buddhism-related deletion discussions. Nizil (talk) 12:19, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. Nizil (talk) 12:21, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Deletion is not cleanup. The article's state is not that bad - it seems mostly correct. citations should be improved. Some NPOVing needed (particularly in terms of treating tradition as fact and for some perhaps alternative theories). What is a major or world religion is a question (in terms of cutoff) - e.g. Christian Science or Scientology would be on the edge of the branch/cult cutoff (though I could see them included). The topic would meet WP:SAL.Icewhiz (talk) 12:40, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @Icewhiz:, can you clarify what is scope of article when the all three words in title are questionable "Burial place", "founder", and "world religion"? Do you think all religions have unique founders with clear burial places? Think about Hinduism. What will you include about it in this article where two words in the title do not apply to it? See Tomb of Jesus as the place of his tomb is disputed. --Nizil (talk) 14:23, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - I'll parse your statement to three:
    1. "Burial place" - I think this is straightforward - it is where a "founder" remain's are purported to be located at. There might be disagreement or different beliefs (particularly so for older relgions) - in which case different alternatives should be listed. When the burial location is a "belief" as opposed to a fact - we should state so. Jesus's place of burial (as well as Jewish figures) is a belief (in fact - there is doubt on the historicity of the figures). The burial place of Bahá'u'lláh is (I think!) a historical fact.
    2. "Founder" - While considering gods or deities as founders for Hinduism (Krishna) and similar pantheons is somewhat suspect (though perhaps possible) - many if not most world religions have clear human founders or alleged founders. We have List of founders of religious traditions - so it seems we can define founder elsewhere.
    3. "World religion" - I think one could agree on a fairly clear criteria. Yes, there are questions over whether say Scientology is a religion (some places recognize it as such, some do not, many do not have an opinion) - however in most cases it is fairly clear what is and what is not a religion. One could argue against "world religion" - or perhaps not. We do have a List of religions and spiritual traditions - so t seems it is possible to compile a list of religions.
  - In short - I do not see the problem here. It is fairly obvious that burial locations (or remains held outside of a tomb - e.g. Gautama Buddha) are notable. There might be a case to merge to List of founders of religious traditions - however due to some traditions of burial being uncertain or possibly needing to account for several such traditions it might get convoluted there - and that other list tries to list one founder, while for burial it make sense to list more than one founding figure if there is such a situation (e.g. I would think it would make sense to list both Shrine of the Báb and Shrine of Bahá'u'lláh for Bahá'í Faith). In cases where there isn't a founder or a burial place (e.g. ascended to heaven, unknown, or whatever) - we could omit the religion or state said status.Icewhiz (talk) 14:37, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - Thank you for your participation.

Re: 1. "Burial place" - All religions do not bury dead. So how will you list remains held outside of a tomb - e.g. Gautama Buddha? And these remains can not surely belonged to the historical Buddha. They are listed as Relics associated with Buddha, not burial place. So burial place is incorrect for Buddha. Hinduism, Jainism and Sikhism do not bury people either (mostly). So how can you list them under title of "Burial place"? In article, for Krishna (who is just a major deity, historicity not validated), the place of his death (which has questionable historicity) is listed, not "Buarial place", and there is no "historical" truth about it. The same applies to other Dharmic religions too. Look Change the name of article where it is questioned by someone in past. See The Buddha too. The burial is a tradition in Abrahamic religions which does not apply everywhere. See NPOV where someone had pointed about Moses whose grave is not exact place. The [Tomb of Jesus]] is not historically accepted place.

Re: 2. "Founder" - List of founders of religious traditions is not about "world religion founders". It list any and all traditions with incorrectly listing people as "founders". Take an example of Mahavira of Jainism. See Jainism#Origins. The origin is obscure and the religion is considered as "eternal". The mythology about it does not let decide founder specifically. So whatever you list is either incorrect or unsuitable. Look at Hinduism. It is also said as eternal and Krishna is just one major deity of thousands of other deities. He is not claimed as "founder". Can you pinpoint who is "founder" in the article of Hinduism? Will you omit Hinduism because it has not one founder or a burial place (as proposed above)?

Re: 3. "World religion" - We do not have article on World religion and is redirected to Major religious groups. Look at the article. Can you list which religions should be listed here? Look at the article Burial places of founders of world religions and say which religious tradition should/should not be in the list. Are Ahmadiyya part of Islam? If yes, it should be covered under Islam. Can you suggest a criteria for "world religion"?

Burial locations of major religious figures are notable but it is difficult to know where they are. And more we go in past, it becomes uncertain for many figures. It can be fairly listed for recent figures but it is problematic for many figures. I have pointed it above. I have questioned the scope of the subject. I have questioned the title. I have not questioned the notability of places associated with these notable figures. Thank you again for engaging in the discussion. Regards--Nizil (talk) 04:49, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Most of your points above could be addressed with a rename to say List of purpoted relics of founders of religious traditions (a bit long). A smaller, and probably due change, is World religion to major religion or just religion.Icewhiz (talk) 05:10, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So you are widening the scope of the current article with "relics" and "religious traditions". Still "founder" is in question. The problem with term "founder" is told above. If you widen the scope of article further, it will be completely new article or possibly list of lists including articles like Relics associated with Buddha, Relics associated with Jesus. But still questions about Hinduism and other Dharmic religions persist.--Nizil (talk) 05:21, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Information on Hinduism and Krishna is removed from the article by Icewhiz recently.--Nizil (talk) 05:28, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. The Mighty Glen (talk) 14:15, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Icewhiz. Propose rename to Relics associated with world religions.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 10:30, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Farang Rak Tham:, thank you for responding to the discussion. Your rename proposal is widening the scope of article further than Icewhiz's proposal. Your renamed article could list All the relics (btw world religion is bit unclear word, see discussion about it above) associated with the particular religion, not limited to one figure or some figures. This will too result in completely new article, very different from the current one.--Nizil (talk) 11:28, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest limiting to founders relics/tombs/burial. Relics without founders is very wide indeed.Icewhiz (talk) 21:31, 24 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep nom wants cleanup, article is useful and encyclopedic. Szzuk (talk) 20:39, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.