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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. There is a clear consensus to Keep this article. Liz Read! Talk! 02:50, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Casey Fiesler

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Casey Fiesler (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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The article ultimately does not reach the notability criteria for any points of WP:ACADEMIC. It best approaches point 7, which it seems to rely on, but even there it lacks the widespread coverage in independent sources usually necessary to establish notability.

As an associate professor, Fiesler doesn't currently hold a high-level position in academia or has demonstrably had a large scholarly influence over her subject area (human-centered computing). Five out of seven of the article's sources are primary ([1] [2] [3] [4] [5]) and the remaining two are local news ([6] [7]), which are outlined in WP:NOTABILITY as not being sufficient enough to demonstrate a subject's notability. The Slate article is itself written by Fiesler and as such can't be used to demonstrate notabiltiy here. Looking into Fiesler online, news articles about her are either those she authored, are exclusively local, or contain passing quotations/comments on her work, all of which cannot demonstrate notability per the specific criteria notes. GuardianH (talk) 01:23, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep That IP Watchdog source cannot go to notability since it's an interview. However, I'd treat Colorado Public Radio as qualifying for notability under WP:GNG. (By the way, WP:NOTABILITY doesn't foreclose local news; WP:ACADEMIC does for purposes of criterion 7.) Speaking of criterion 7, other independent, secondary, reliable, substantial sources exist to document her public role on issues related to her academic research and thus notability: CBS News, CBC, Washington Post. There are other examples not as substantial as those, but I believe these should suffice. Dclemens1971 (talk) 02:14, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
thank you! ill update the article with these sources to improve it! User:Sawerchessread (talk) 03:28, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, they don't suffice. For starters, the CBS News source explicitly tagged itself as "LOCAL NEWS" right at the very top of the headline, and this is for a good reason – local news articles such as these cannot demonstrate subject notability. I don't have a WaPo subscription, but just taking a look at the article, she seems to be mentioned only in passing — minor, supplementary mentions also don't prove notability.[1]

The CBC does focus on Fiesler, but this article is an exception to the rule — the majority of independent, reliable sources do not focus their entire articles on her. Just because one does, does not mean all do; a lot more than just this one is needed to prove the widespread coverage necessary to establish notability. GuardianH (talk) 03:43, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ WP:ACADEMIC: A small number of quotations [...] is not unexpected for academics and so falls short of this mark. [elided as this isn't a local article].
Criterion 7 under NACADEMIC does not require the subject to be the primary focus of the article. That's a GNG requirement. Quote: "Criterion 7 may be satisfied, for example, if the person is frequently quoted in conventional media as an academic expert in a particular area." There is nothing there about how extensive the quotations need to be. And the WaPo item is not a mere passing quote:

Casey Fiesler, an information science professor at the University of Colorado at Boulder, said she did not want to downplay any potential menace, but it was possible that students who had noticed increased fear of school violence among their peers were hoping to get attention. TikTok has moderators and guidelines that prohibit posts promoting or threatening violence, but Fiesler said such rules could be circumvented by savvy users. And she noted that TikTok’s accessibility — its algorithm means posts from people with relatively small followings on the platform have a “much higher” chance of being widely circulated — allows for “content that would otherwise maybe not spread as much [to] go viral.” .... Fiesler, the Colorado professor, offered a hypothetical scenario of a student pulling a fire alarm to skip an exam. It could be “the same kind of thing, just at a much larger scale,” she said.

Other examples of "frequently quoted in conventional media" include: New York Times, Slate x2, Inside Higher Ed, Science, The Verge, SSIR, CNN, Fast Company, plus WaPo and CBC. All taken, these indicate that she is frequently cited by perennially reliable national and global media outlets as an expert in her academic field. (Meanwhile, CBC, Denver Post, and Colorado Public Radio go toward GNG notability (which, unlike NACADEMIC, counts local news coverage as long as it's significant coverage, reliable, secondary, and independent). But there are plenty of sources to keep this article under NACADEMIC Criterion 7.) Dclemens1971 (talk) 04:14, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
note: cbc is canada broadcasting company. her works have been in colorado and georgia. neither of these are local to canada. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 05:04, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ah, wait, you said CBS. that makes more sense. whoops. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 05:35, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I meant CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Company). It satisfies all criteria for GNG, and since it's not local news it also qualifies as coverage under NACADEMIC criterion 7. Dclemens1971 (talk) 11:21, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in general the fact that multiple news sources showcase her work indicates notability, and as the main author, i consider the fact that i can writw three+ paragraphs with independent, reliable sources on nearly every sentence indicates notability.
as a professor her research career is still early stage, so her research output is not notable yet.
of note, about twelve hours before this, casey fiesler created a tiktok about this page indicating surprise that she had a page. this was before the deletion notice, so viewers do not know there is a deletion. however viewers may see this page.
her tiktok was her surprise at having a wikipedia article, but also her own experiences with nominations for deletion of her articles. she does not mention that her own article is up for deletion as she created the tiktok for her followers before this afd.
is there a process to correct the discussion and avoid any bias? ive seen it before on afd, when an article is proposed for deletion, in order to maintain balance. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 03:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the fact that multiple news sources showcase her work indicates notability, and as the main author, i consider the fact that i can [write] three+ paragraphs with independent, reliable sources on nearly every sentence indicates notability. — Okay, first of all, not all news sources are made the same. WP:ACADEMIC and WP:NOTABILITY specify independent, reliable sources to prove significant coverage. The bulk of the articles here are, as I've pointed out, not independent, and they also happen to be local, which itself can't prove notability. GuardianH (talk) 03:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As a scientist in the field of human-centered computing, I thought I would add some context from my field to this conversation, and I would be happy to contribute to the article as useful. I think there are several good reasons to select Dr. Fiesler. On criterion 1 (significant impact in scholarly discipline), I would like to observe that Dr Fiesler has received 12 awards in computer science for "Best Paper" or "best Paper Honorable Mention," and that she was also awarded the NSF CAREER award, which is a significant monetary award selected by peers in the field to support promising early career scholars. On criterion (7), Dr. Fiesler is a leading science communicator on human-centered computing, as evidenced by the fact that the U.S. White House invited her to attend the signing of the Executive Order on Safe, Secure, and Trustworthy Artificial Intelligence. Most importantly, under criterion 8 (editorship), Dr. Fiesler has served as the general chair of the CSCW conference— one of the two leading academic conferences in all of human-centered computing— a position that is equivalent (for computer science) of chief editor of a journal. Dr. Fiesler's CSCW co-chair that year, Dr. Loren Terveen, quite rightly, also has a Wikipedia page. Rubberpaw (talk) 03:53, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Few things to note. Notability on Wikipedia depends first and foremost on reliable sources. It would be better if you could provide a source for the 12 awards claim, a reliable source demonstrating the NSF Career award is significant enough to demonstrate it is a highly prestigious academic award or honor at a national or international level,[1] and when you cited the White House visit, you provided Instagram, which is not a reliable source. Even so, a visit to the White House does not fit any part of the notability criteria laid out in WP:ACADEMIC.

As for her chairship, you also need a RS demonstrating that CSCW is one of the two leading academic conferences in all of human-centered computing. Digging reveals that she is a co-chair of one (Organizing Committee) of three committees – Organizing Committee, Program Committee, Steering Committee — rather than chair of the entire organization itself. GuardianH (talk) 04:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC) GuardianH (talk) 04:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for these questions. I hope the following responses are informative.
  • The index for the 12 awards claim is Dr. Fiesler's CV on file with the University of Colorado, which I fact-checked by querying the conference proceedings for those cases. To cite three examples, here is the 2023 CSCW best paper honorable mention list that names the "Chilling Takes" article that Dr. Fiesler was lead author on. Here is the proceedings for the 2015 conference paper on understanding copyright in online creative communities that received a best paper award, as indicated by the award cup icon. Here is the best paper list from SIGCSE 2018, which also cites awards received by Fiesler's research.
  • NSF CAREER: According to this guide by the MIT Office of the Vice President for Research, "The CAREER program is a NSF-wide activity that provides 5 year awards to tenure-track Assistant Professors, and is one of the most popular and prestigious opportunities offered by the Foundation."
  • "Digging reveals that she is a co-chair of one (Organizing Committee) of three committees" - not all academic journals and conferences have a single head. This conference, which operates at a very high volume, has multiple heads, as is common in computer science, where there is a particularly high volume of scholarship. These are necessary conditions of such a high productivity, comparatively large field, with outsized influence in science.
  • "A visit to the White House does not fit any part of the notability criteria laid out in WP:ACADEMIC." In this case, I think it's notable because the White House was deliberately marking what they considered to be a first, historic step in the regulation of artificial intelligence in the US and internationally by inviting notable scientists, advocates, and policy experts.
Rubberpaw (talk) 19:04, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I disagree about the NSF Career award above being something that confers notability under WP:NPROF. It is a competitive grant that one applies for and not everyone gets, and also signifies that the grantee is poised to make significant contributions in their field. But the kinds of awards that confer notability under WP:PROF are not grant awards, and they are not "best paper" awards. They are the kinds of awards that people get nominated for by independent, distinguished organizations, without themselves applying for them. And generally, they are not going to be received by an assistant/associate professor - which is what makes this case a little difficult. Qflib (talk) 19:40, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
NPROF also does not consider early-career awards prestigious enough to count at all towards notability. The NSF Career grant and the paper awards thus do not contribute at all to this discussion. JoelleJay (talk) 23:04, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ WP:NACADEMIC
Comment: I've added additional sources to the article. I am not sure which ones are the best for indicating independence. However, apparently Casey Fiesler maintains a press page. https://caseyfiesler.com/press/
Of note, the first category, "OpEds and Popular Press Articles", probably cannot be used. these are self-written and are not independent.
However, Research Coverage, Press Mentions & Quotes, and others seem interesting and worth including. I don't want to overload the page with citations, but I feel we can pick a few that are appropriate to give additional detail and verification as necessary. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 03:57, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've also gone and removed the self-sourced article, and replaced it with what I hope is an appropriate source. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 04:33, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep A quick rummage through the sources in the article and above plus a Google News search suggest to me that a) there's enough material to form a functional short article about her, and b) some people are going to say, "Who is this Casey Fiesler?" and turn to us for a trusted answer. Additionally, and I hope this is just coincidence, I think it's a very bad look for Wikipedia when somebody records a popular video about quitting Wikipedia due to retaliatory deletions from a disgruntled editor and then suddenly their Wikipedia article is up for deletion. William Pietri (talk) 04:23, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: For sake of transparency, and to avoid any issues, I've attached the canvassing template on here.
The TikTok by Fiesler might have caused some folks to show up.
I definitely agree that we should keep this article and I welcome folks' input, but Wikipedia rules are rules, just in case. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 04:45, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
sigh, is there a better template? User:Sawerchessread (talk) 04:45, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ah found one. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 04:46, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please don’t “bite the newbie” but if an article for deletion and the story of her making a tiktok being surprised about having a Wikipedia page manages to make the main stream media or highly viewed on tiktok could that in it of itself be controversial enough to warrant a Wikipedia page? My great grandpa was a 1 star army general and his a Wikipedia but he didn’t do much and they don’t delete him, in fact all he only appears on Google as his Wikipedia page and list of ww1 veterans - anonymous — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.36.11.80 (talk) 22:43, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Has it made the mainstream media? In general we usually want more than one different mainstream media story about a person (each with in-depth coverage of the person) to generate notability that way; see WP:BIO1E and WP:NOTNEWS. But that's all hypothetical; in this case I think there are much better rationales for notability than any recent controversy. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:59, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. If I look at the original when the AfD nomination was made, that was certainly questionable. However, there have been enough additions and improvements that I think the current version qualifies as proof of notability. (There may even be a bit more that people in her field might add.) Ldm1954 (talk) 02:20, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: meets WP:PROF#C7 (a) per the sources provided by Dclemens1971. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:24, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per WP:GNG and lesser because of WP:PROF#C1. I know it can sometimes chafe when someone gets media coverage partially because they're mad at Wikipedia, but coverage is coverage and Wikipedia should, in my opinion only, try harder to make articles better (as happened in this case) when people think they might be borderline AfD-worthy and not just jump in to looking to remove them. I feel that Wikipedia can often use the AfD process as a punishment of sorts when we have thousands of one-sentence stubs which seem to be okay. Wikipedia has such a huge gender disparity in terms of who is represented in biographies and who is writing those biographies. We can do better. Jessamyn (my talk page) 17:55, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I don't often weigh in, but CSCW, a conference organized by the ACM (Association of Computing Machinery), is one of the premier conferences for human-computer interaction. I know that every conference feels that it is the premier conference in its field, but this actually is. And the work she did with "Computer Engineer Barbie" was actually discussed in my "Gender & Computing" course last week, as we looked at the bias the doll incorporates. --WiseWoman (talk) 19:09, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as the subject passes WP:BIO and WP:PROF#C7. I'd also like to echo Jessamyn's comments; I came to the article after seeing Fiesler's TikTok about her experience with Wikipedia, and was a little dismayed to see it had already been sent to AfD. TheCatalyst31 Reaction•Creation 21:36, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep ZimZalaBim's summary of her WP:PROF criteria passes are sound (C7 is especially strong). And thanks to @Ldm1954 for pointing out the differences in the article from when AfD began and where it is today. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 11:05, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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