Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Catholic beliefs on the power of prayer

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 19:17, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further to a query on my talk page, although I noted that some editors suggested renaming the article, no clear consensus on this was present. I would suggest that this be discussed on the article's talk page, and if appropriate, the steps listed at Wikipedia:Requested moves followed -- PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 09:29, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Catholic beliefs on the power of prayer

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Reason Malke 2010 (talk) 17:28, 12 September 2010 (UTC) This article is filled with WP:OR and possible copyright violations. The title of the article is Catholic beliefs on the power of prayer. There is no such official Catholic Church position on this. The article does not define what these beliefs are, rather it is a collection of prayers and devotionals common among the laity. Listing these devotionals does not in any way expand on the title being used.[reply]

In addition, a lot of the material here is from the Catholic New Advent Encyclopedia online and does not have attribution. No where in the article is there a source specific to Catholic beliefs on the power of prayer.

The article should be deleted and/or merged with Catholic devotions but the title of this article should not be kept and redirected to other Catholic articles as it is not notable and according to the talk page has been chosen at random. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:28, 12 September 2010 (UTC) (ec)[reply]

I wanted to mention also, that I earlier raised these issues on the article talk page and appropriately tagged the article back in July. Another editor has been contesting the tags. But unfortnately, even after discussion with a 3O editor, there has been no real progress. The issues raised were:

The article does not offer any illuminations on Catholic beliefs regarding this so-called 'power of prayer.'
There is no notability regarding specific Catholic beliefs on the power of prayer
There are possible copyright violations.
There is original research and a lack of sources to confirm that there are specific Catholic beliefs regarding this 'power of prayer.'
I cannot find any reliable sources to confirm official Catholic beliefs within the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding this 'power of prayer.'
These prayers are already covered in the article Catholic devotions.

Also, this is my first time nominating an article, so if I've gotten any format issues wrong, please forgive and correct. Thanks. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:31, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. —Anaxial (talk) 21:12, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep It may be that the article could be merged with another, or even re-titled, but I'm fairly neutral on that issue. However, the subject seems to me inherently notable, the article appears to be well-referenced, and the text seems (to me, though evidently I disagree with the proposer on this) to be relevant to the title. Copyrighted materials should, of course, be removed as soon as they are identified, but I haven't myself seen evidence that copyright infringement is so severe in this article as to render deletion the only remaining option. The article could do with improvement, certainly, but deletion seems a little strong. Anaxial (talk) 17:44, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It only seems as if there are citations. The edits do not match up with these sources. The sections have no citations, only the so-called 'examples' have cites and those are to obscure references like St. Louis. And they discuss Pope John Paul II, etc.

That has nothing to do with the topic. Also, there is absolutely nothing in the lead or anywhere in the article that illuminates, explains, or defines these 'beliefs in the power of prayer.' Certainly, believers believe in the power of prayer, but why is that more notable for Catholics? There is no official Church position on this. The Catholic Church believes any power in prayer comes from the will of God, not the prayer. These collections of traditional Catholic devotions are better taken up in that article.Malke 2010 (talk)

Please strike your bolded !vote; as the nominator, you are already presumed to be favoring the deletion. Jclemens (talk) 21:26, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here is an example of what I'm talking about. This is also a possible copyvio because I've seen this same outline on a Catholic website. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_beliefs_on_the_power_of_prayer#Prayer_as_a_source_of_strength

Where are the sources for this? How did the editor come up with these forms of prayer, and then how did they relate this to Catholic beliefs in the power of prayer? Also, note that the quotes have nothing to do with this. They are just there as 'examples.' And note, the quotes always seem to be coming from the same sources, like St. Louis, etc. You can see this across many Catholic articles where this editor edits. Always the same content, the same claims, no real sources to support these claims.18:08, 12 September 2010 (UTC)Malke 2010 (talk) 21:22, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I agree with Anaxial (who arrived on the page to provide a 3rd opinion). We talked for ever and day on the talk page there, asking Malke to provide "one single example" of a copyright violation so it can be corrected. None was provided, except a request for a citation! Not a single case of copyvio was provided for correction, despite repeated requests to Malke. Now that is a reason for deletion? Am I misreading this text? As for Notability, I also agree with Anaxial, there are books on the topic "Power of prayer" e.g. [1] Power of Prayer Power of Prayer The Unseen Power of Prayer: A Catholic Perspective. And there are many more here. The topic is clearly notable and the term "Power of prayer" appears within the Catechism of the Catholic Church in (Item 2610), as the article states. This topic is notable. And the article has over 80 references, more than many other Wikipedia articles. Over a year ago an independent editor gave the article a "B rating". Now, it is suddenly getting a berating? History2007 (talk) 18:19, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When I challenged an edit I know I've seen on a Catholic website, I asked History2007 to provide his source for the edit. He refused to do so, and deleted the edit instead.Malke 2010 (talk) 18:24, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the "books" History2007 is referring to above. These are books by laity not official Catholic Church documents, etc., that would be appropriate to use in illustrating Catholic beliefs. Also, note that these are all online under the aegis of Google Books. No where in any of these books is there specific illustrations of Catholic beliefs in the power of prayer. These claims are unsubstantiated.Malke 2010 (talk) 18:28, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will leave this issue to the Wikipoedia editors to comment on. The talk page has already covered it. History2007 (talk) 18:32, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep No particular reason for deletion evident--there's obviously some serious disagreements about the page's content, but I'm not seeing anything to substantiate OR or copyvio that cannot be remedied through the normal editing and dispute resolution process. Jclemens (talk) 21:30, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please go to the article and try to find five Catholic beliefs on the power of prayer, as outlined in the teachings of the Catholic Church. Search Google for notability using the same title. You will come back with evangelical Protestant beliefs, websites, hour of prayer power, etc. But none of it Catholic. The article is a mosh of Catholic prayers, poorly sourced, laced together with a title that was chosen at random, and not sourced at all, with misinformation.Malke 2010 (talk) 22:43, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep but prune and perhaps rename. I would like to see the article pruned of aspects that are not specifically Catholic, but generally agreed by all Christian denominations. It should accordingly focus on aspects of prayer that are specifically Catholic. An appropriate title might be The Catholic view of prayer. The article certainly needs a lot of work, but it is not beyond remedy

There is no notability and there are no verifiable sources that show specific Catholic beliefs on the power of prayer that would justify this article. There is no wide spread, well known, specific Catholic beliefs out there. The article is nothing more than a collection of prayers and practices, laced together with citations that don't match up with the edits, drawn from Google Books that are off-topic and offer only trivial references.Malke 2010 (talk) 08:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to Prayer in Catholicism, and move any non-Catholic-specific content to Prayer in Christianity. This article doesn't seem to contain much information relevant to its current title. --Alynna (talk) 02:30, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, prune and rename to Prayer in Catholicism or similar (which really should exist). There's some useful stuff there, but certainly very little on beliefs on the power of prayer. Most of what's there belongs in some general article on Catholicism and prayer, Catholic devotions or Prayer in Christianity. --Mairi (talk) 02:36, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.