Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Sams (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Sandstein 07:41, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

David Sams

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David Sams has recently been in the news extensively for the Google Assistant Jesus Christ incident [1], however, outside of that (which would be BLP1E) doesn't seem to have a footprint in RS. The article makes a number of extraordinary claims like he's personally won 9 Emmy Awards (I'm assuming the implication is national, not local, Emmys), helped launch Oprah Winfrey, and sold $125 million in direct TV systems, however, I am unable to find RS to support any of these claims after searching Google News, Google Books, newspapers.com, and JSTOR. At present, the article is sourced to two YouTube videos and David Sams' personal website. The article was previously deleted via AfD but later recreated. Chetsford (talk) 03:08, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. ^{Babymissfortune} 04:35, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. ^{Babymissfortune} 04:35, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. ^{Babymissfortune} 04:35, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. ^{Babymissfortune} 04:36, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep While Sams is probably very good at self promotion and has some despicable political ideas, he clearly has a history as a TV producer. One of his shows is named in WP:TVSHOW as an example of a show suitable enough to be named as content carried by local TV stations. He is obviously much higher up the food chain. He has done what good producers do, get his name attached to a lot of successful projects. He has managed to get his position as creator of Oprah's talk show and 9 Emmy awards mentioned in a lot of press, including reliable sources like the LA Times. Clearly there are a lot of sources talking about a lot of different stages of his career at varying points in time. Somehow the NOM's google search didn't seem to find the ones I have already added to the article. If nothing else he has achieved WP:GNG. And further, if his name is in the news currently (as stated by the NOM), it would be irresponsible of wikipedia to delete his article with his lengthy history specifically at the time people will be searching to find out who this guy is no matter how we feel about his religious or political activities. Trackinfo (talk) 05:32, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Somehow the NOM's google search didn't seem to find the ones I have already added to the article." While I appreciate your effort in adding press releases [2], Blogspot posts [3], Wordpress.com blog posts [4], and something called constantinereport.com [5] to the Sams BLP, just to be clear, David Sams did not create the Oprah Winfrey Show or win nine Emmy Awards.

The only WP:RS that mentions any involvement by Sams in Oprah in any context at all is this one LA Times candidate profile [6] when he was one of 135 candidates running in the California gubernatorial recall election and it says he was "involved in launching" Oprah as a syndication staffer at King World Television. This is the careful wording a publicist uses in crafting a biography for his client; the cameraman of the pilot episode was also "involved in launching" Oprah.
I've just checked the Emmys database [7] and they return no results showing Sams winning "9 Emmy Awards" (or even one Emmy Award).

"if his name is in the news currently (as stated by the NOM), it would be irresponsible of wikipedia to delete his article" - see WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP1E

Chetsford (talk) 07:03, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sams has sources talking about his history going back to the 1980's. Clearly this is not a case where WP:BLP1E applies. I am specifically questioning the timing of this AfD to correspond with his appearance in the current news, which you as the NOM brought up. The sources I added did not even address whatever is putting him in the current news. Trackinfo (talk) 17:28, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the other points, I agree, he or his publicist (possibly the same person) have done an effective job of placing his claims of 9 Emmy awards into various media, including the LA Times and other legitimate newspapers. I suspect, in his role with the distribution company for Oprah, Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune, he has assumed the awards for those shows to be his own. Clearly he was high up the food chain at King World. I'm adding a source that defines his title at the company. If you think the multiple sources repeating the claims posted by his publicist are still inadequate, I would not contest removing of the awards or better, refining of the wording to say "he claims." Independent of that, he did co-produce and was on camera host of RollerGames, also sourced. And his current involvements in religious broadcasting that have evolved over the last two decades. There are a lot of things this guy has done over a long career, a lot of it behind the scenes and more difficult to articulate if you aren't sitting in those offices while decisions are being made. Was he important to the decisions that made these things happen, or was he just occupying a seat at the table? But he was there. He keeps getting asked to be there. The main point is you are improperly using the AfD process to try to delete the entire article, rather than using your skills as an editor to place proper words into the article to more accurately describe what is known about this subject.Trackinfo (talk) 17:54, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We're in dangerous territory here. This guy obviously has a relationship with Oprah, among others. Removing him from here would be as bad a Google removing Jesus from Google Home. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Misterhit (talk • contribs)

Blogspot posts, press releases, YouTube videos, and constantinereport.com aren't real sources, though. Especially for a BLP. Chetsford (talk) 18:17, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

NY Times, LA Times (multiple mentions in different decades), Chico News & Review are legitimate newspapers, The Washington Times is a biased conservative newspaper. There are multiple trade publications in the sources. The other sources just supplement. I added an LA Times to supplement what a previous user had added from youtube. I freely admit there is garbage in the article. Feel free to edit. You have no case for removal. Trackinfo (talk) 18:47, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The NY Times article you added is a 4,663 word article that mentions David Sams once in a short quote. The others are similarly incidental. It seems the only substantive references are to the non-RS sources you've added like Blogspot, Wordpress, constantinereport.com, etc. If we remove those we have no biographical detail on Sams other than the fact he is a living human. Chetsford (talk) 19:15, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good Grief. His name might be mentioned once, in the middle of a paragraph long quote that sets up his participation in the negotiations on Oprah and several paragraphs about how innovative that was. And you are counting words? Trackinfo (talk) 19:22, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"that sets up his participation in the negotiations" - But it doesn't really, does it? [8] Chetsford (talk) 19:41, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete not enough sources to establish notability.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:15, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This user says delete to everything. Please ignore. Trackinfo (talk) 17:24, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This user is a seasoned contributor to Wikipedia with an 87% match rate on AfDs. Please treat other editors in this discussion with civility. Thanks. Chetsford (talk) 18:10, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

JPL has such a bad track record that he has been banned from creating AfDs. That's one of my sources for a legitimate accusation. Since he can't create AfDs, he is a serial deletionist. As for your statement about an 87% match rate, I have made multiple requests for your source on such a declaration. You have refused. So that declaration is unfounded. Trackinfo (talk) 23:23, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You can find anyone's AFD match rate using Wikimedia Toolforge. If you have other questions about tools available for Wikipedia editing I would encourage you to bring them up at the WP:Teahouse. If you have other accusations to make against editors I would encourage you to bring them up at ANI. Neither of these are appropriate avenues of discussion for this AfD. I appreciate your help in keeping this AfD as on-topic and un-dramatic as possible. Thanks, in advance. Chetsford (talk) 00:07, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Trackinfo, I'm commenting here since Chetsford clearly doesn't want you on their talk page regarding this issue. You can see any user's AFD statistics at https://tools.wmflabs.org/afdstats/ Primefac (talk) 13:18, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep All questions posed here have been reviewed, checked, and referenced. The article has been updated and sources cited throughout. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Misterhit (talk • contribs) — Misterhit (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Welcome to Wikipedia, Misterhit. Chetsford (talk) 04:38, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Chetsford, I saw your post on AIV; no block seems to have followed but I didn't check to see if an admin had commented. I would not act on this: the editor just keeps on digging their own hole, and when this AfD closes as delete, which I am sure it will, it will be over, no doubt. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 15:21, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete A textbook example of puffery, using youtube as a source, and press releases as sources, and articles which do not even mention the person as sources. A huge NYT article on King World mentions Sams once - as a former employee. Sorry - the person is not individually notable, and the puffery used is distasteful. Collect (talk) 18:55, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Did you look further at the source for RollerGames? That was his creation, with Mike Miller, and he was on camera host. In addition, he certainly had some association with Oprah and other King World products, he was quoted in the NYT about that. The puffery can get edited, removing the entire subject is not appropriate. Trackinfo (talk) 19:32, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes -- and all the other puffery which has been restored in its entirety by an editor with few if any outside edits. I am iterating the Delete vote, and note the use of youtube and other absolutely unusable sources place back into the BLP. Collect (talk) 20:14, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

He has been quoted in numerous places (press releases, YouTube videos, blogspot posts, etc.) declaring he is responsible for launching Oprah. What we don't have is any WP:INDEPENDENT source affirming this, nor is there any evidence of Oprah herself acknowledging she even knows who he is. Chetsford (talk) 20:40, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am assuming this new editor Misterhit to be Sams himself. WP:COI aside, he knows where the bodies are buried. He has provided the youtube video (hosted on David Sams' account) of himself, on camera, representing King World, hawking Oprah's then untested show in 1986. Unless you want to contend that he made himself look 30 years younger in order to fake that video to keep his article on wikipedia, that gives pretty clear evidence of his association to the national distribution of that show, backing up all the other articles where he is talked about having been involved with the show. So the New York Times quoting him about his past association with selling the Oprah show is not a fake or them succumbing to a publicity shill job. Two other videos show him, on camera, selling (credited as Executive Producer) and hosting RollerGames again backing up the LA Times article giving him similar credit in their write up about the series. Or do you think they too were deceived in 1989? Broadcasting and Cable is an industry publication, another reliable source, talking about his lawsuit against Verisign in 2003. I also restored the Chico News & Review sourcing to his "Economic terrorism" quote from his 2003 run for governor. WP:BLP1E? Seriously? So trying to dissect his claim of 9 Emmys, Oprah won for talk show host in 1987, 1991-5, her show won 1987-9 1991-2, 1994-7, Alex Trebek won game show host for Jeopardy in 1989-90, Pat Sajak won the same in 1993 and 98, Jeopardy won as game show six times 1990-5. Of those, how deep would the credits show for the VP of the distribution company? The Oprah Winfrey Show ultimately won 46 Emmys, the most of any show. Did he get or assume a pseudo producer credit to take credit for any of those during the extended tenure following his sales efforts to bring the show into national distribution? Grandiose claims? We have already established he is a salesman. See Donald Trump. Most of these sources were already in the article through its many evolutions over the last few days. So the delete votes below obviously failed to read, or to trust, notable major daily news sources. I will never understand your zealous blindness in order to delete content, but in every AfD we always seem to line up an echo chamber of lemmings. Trackinfo (talk) 07:30, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you look at my AfD history then. I am as far from a "lemming" as you might desire. The problem is that many people have created their own BLPs - and the use of SPS material and the like is usually a dead giveaway. Wikipedia policy requires that such be deleted, alas. This is not the voice of a "lemming" as you will find out from my stats. Collect (talk) 14:58, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Trackinfo, would you mind not calling other editors in this discussion names like "lemmings"? It helps to keep the discussion focused. Thanks very much. Chetsford (talk) 15:18, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note to Closer David Sams is appealing to his Facebook followers over his Wikipedia page "being hacked" [sic] [9], which I believe may be a reference to this AfD. This most likely won't have a substantial impact on this AfD as it appears he has very few Facebook followers (~700), however, please note any SPAs or sleeper accounts. Chetsford (talk) 20:51, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Fails on GNG Darkness Shines (talk)▪
Delete Except for Google Jesus thing, no notable mention in reliable sources. Fails on GNG. Delete per BLP1E LK (talk) 07:33, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The usual "throw all the possible cites at the wall and see if enough stick" approach to article retention is evident. Many of the cites do not say what they are cited for saying, the cites that are significantly about this subject are not independent, and the cites that are independent are not significant. There's no sign of independent, significant sources in general searches, either. No way to pass WP:NBIO or WP:GNG. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 00:00, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Non-notable person, fails GNG BytEfLUSh ^Talk 04:05, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as non notable person, Fails GNG and every other policy on here!. –Davey2010^Talk 04:31, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I'm not seeing any in-depth coverage in reliable secondary sources. Scattered passing mentions in the sources are not enough to create notability:WP:INDEPTH. Neutrality^talk 04:59, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete This is a heavily promotional and poorly referenced BLP filled with dubious assertions. This person is not notable. For what it is worth, I happen to have a copy of Kitty Kelley's 579 page biography of Oprah Winfrey in my lap, and it doesn't mention Sams at all. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:06, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete His reported involvement with notable TV shows and other events are not supported by RS.Martinlc (talk) 12:39, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note to Closer 2 Misterhit has announced it is the agent or legal counsel for David Sams [10] and has been blocked for undisclosed paid editing and legal threats [11]. Chetsford (talk) 17:12, 2 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete -- a WP:PROMO page built on unreliable and / or WP:SPIP sources. Basically, spam. K.e.coffman (talk) 06:34, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.