Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Elie Y. Katz

This discussion was subject to a deletion review on 2018 May 16.
For an explanation of the process, see Wikipedia:Deletion review.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Randykitty (talk) 13:38, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Elie Y. Katz

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

The newest in a series of articles about non-notable mayors from a certain New Jersey town. He does not even remotely pass WP:POLITICIAN. Very little coverage outside of local press. Rusf10 (talk) 02:31, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete does not pass WP:POLITICIAN and a before search doesn't bring up anything which might pass WP:GNG. SportingFlyer talk 02:34, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. MT Train^Talk 04:48, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. MT Train^Talk 04:48, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions. MT Train^Talk 04:48, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Teaneck is not large enough that its mayors would get an automatic presumption of notability per WP:NPOL #2 just for existing, but the sourcing here is nowhere near solid enough to get him over WP:GNG: it's about half primary sources and half the WP:ROUTINE reporting of election results in the local media that's simply expected to exist. Bearcat (talk) 20:05, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Two-time mayor of Teaneck, first Jewish mayor of Teaneck, youngest mayor of Teaneck, first observant Jewish mayor of Teaneck. I know "OTHERSTUFFEXISTS" is not given weight, but the other recent mayors have articles, apparently because they are minorities. This is also of a minority with his own claim to fame. I note that there's an apparent personal vendetta at play to delete articles related to New Jersey. See here, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mayors of Teaneck, New Jersey, and here. Enigma^msg 04:22, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's all nice, but does he pass WP:GNG? SportingFlyer talk 04:45, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Neither being the youngest, nor the first Jewish, holder of an otherwise non-notable office constitutes an automatic inclusion freebie that exempts a smalltown mayor from having to clear WP:GNG. Bearcat (talk) 05:14, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So basically, he is Jewish, so he deserves a article. What should matter more is that Teaneck does not even directly elect their mayors, they are appointed from among the councilmembers. See also WP:AFDEQ--Rusf10 (talk) 15:33, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It seems you didn't bother reading what I wrote. No, I didn't say that everyone Jewish deserves an article. Enigma^msg 16:08, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I added an article from one of largest newspapers in Israel written about Teaneck and Katz. You can see his picture featured at the top of the article. Enigma^msg 19:27, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nice try, I can't read Hebrew, but Google translate can! The article is not about Katz, its a profile of the town of Teaneck. There's a few quotes from Katz including ""When I ran for deputy mayor, Muhammad was the one who ran the campaign for me," and "I have no interest in being mayor," . They either misquoted him or he was lying (figuring that the Israeli audience would have no idea) because a person cannot "run for mayor" (or deputy mayor) in Teaneck, as this article explains, they are selected among the councilmembers [1].--Rusf10 (talk) 22:56, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's evident you can't read Hebrew, because you mischaracterized what he actually said. From your responses to my comments, I'm starting to wonder about your level of reading comprehension in English. Enigma^msg 00:28, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't know it was a requirement for me to read Hebrew. You now made it obvious that you threw that source in there hoping no one would read it, Google translate gave me a coherent article, so I have to believe it was pretty close to what it probably said. And if the translation is wrong, why do you translate it for us then? And regarding, my "level of reading comprehension in English", how about you read WP:AFDEQ?--Rusf10 (talk) 00:52, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is now the third AfD I've seen where you've displayed a startling lack of reading comprehension. I posted an article from a major foreign newspaper. You then admitted to not being able to read, and proceeded to call the guy a liar even though you admittedly don't even know what he said. I don't know why you're so determined to have as many articles deleted as possible, but you're clearly dealing in bad faith. You don't even do a modicum of research before pushing for the deletion, as evinced by the Donald L. Trump AfD. I'm new to the scene here, but it's no wonder a number of editors are upset by this behavior. Enigma^msg 02:19, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I hope you consider an apology - Rusf10 has had a couple misses on articles nominated for AfD recently (missed before searches), but Rusf10 nominates articles that deserve to be deleted more often than not. At least check the user contributions for a history of nominated articles before making a very serious bad faith claim. SportingFlyer talk 03:25, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I found a source from an international newspaper and he decided that I "threw it in there hoping no one would read it." Meanwhile, he didn't read it and proceeded to personally attack the subject of this AfD. Clearly bad faith. Enigma^msg 18:38, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Having translated the article myself, I would be more inclined to agree with you were the article you posted actually about the subject and not the municipality. SportingFlyer talk 01:56, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, the article headline translates to "The unholy trinity of the town of Tink (sic)" and discusses a different mayor in the lede. SportingFlyer talk 01:57, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I made a good faith effort to try and read a foreign language newspaper. But guess what? After more searching, look what I found! The Most Jewish City in New Jersey Has a Muslim Mayor and a Ban on Sunday Shopping So now, I know I'm right about the content of the article. Know what is extremely bad faith? Using a Hebrew verison of an article in an English encyclopedia when there is an English version of the same article is available. Its like you don't want anyone else to know what it says. Even the placement of the reference in the article is questionable. "Elie Y. Katz (born July 16, 1974) is an American businessman and the former Mayor of Teaneck, New Jersey" Where in the article does it give his birthdate or even tell us he was mayor? The article doesn't tell you he was a former mayor, obviously the staff at Haaretz is as bad at fact checking as the American press, so I could believe they misquoted him too. Since everyone can now read the article, we know the subject of the article is a town with a large Jewish population and a Muslim mayor. It has several quotes from Katz, but not indepth coverage.--Rusf10 (talk) 20:15, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That is now the third time you've directed a highly uncivil comment towards me. Please read WP:CIVILITY. You present a foreign language source that no one can read to support notability and when I put it into a translator to actually read the thing, you claim the translation is completely wrong. And yet you refuse to tell me what it really says. So who is acting in bad faith? And what I actually said is either he was misquoted or he was lying. It is actually more likely the former because the press misquotes people all the time. Regardless of what he actually said, the issue you are completely ignoring is that the subject of the article is Teaneck, not Elie Katz. WP:BASIC requires indepth coverage from multiple sources. Regardless of if I was reading a good translation of the article or not, you cannot tell me that it is in-depth coverage. Because you can't refute my assertion that the subject lacks notability, you have resorted to attacking me instead.--Rusf10 (talk) 03:22, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Teaneck has less than 50,000 people. we need truly significant coverage to show notability which is lacking.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:14, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Borderline Keep Needs more references, they are available and the existing ones need to be formatted better. --RAN (talk) 02:47, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Mayors of Teaneck, New Jersey. Nominator (and others) have clearly not considered and should have appropriately suggested what the [[Wikipedia:BEFORE guidelines says: If the topic is not important enough to merit an article on its own, consider merging or redirecting to an existing article. This should be done particularly if the topic name is a likely search term.. This is clearly such a case, since the target article is well-written and well-referenced. Djflem (talk) 13:20, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Mayors of Teaneck, New Jersey. Fails WP:NPOL and WP:GNG.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:52, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Mayors of Teaneck, New Jersey. This page doesn't stand on its own merit, but in the rules of AfD there are other options than just deleting everything. Let's redirect, not delete, as per AfD rules. SEMMENDINGER (talk) 18:43, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Mayors of Teaneck, New Jersey-Definitely not notable enough for its own page, but can have a mention on the list of mayors page. Tinton5 (talk) 01:10, 4 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Having recently participated in the discussion here Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_mayors_of_West_Lafayette,_Indiana I would recommend merging the list of mayors for Teaneck since it's a smaller city than West Lafayette, but of course it's a New Jersey article and therefore was nearly snow-kept less than four months ago. I'd prefer a deletion. SportingFlyer talk

"but of course it's a New Jersey article and therefore was nearly snow-kept"' what the devil does this mean?E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:06, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just because it's smaller doesn't mean anything though. Not sure what you're implying with the end of that sentence either. SEMMENDINGER (talk) 02:02, 4 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, after the change in consensus, I'd still prefer deleting the article over a redirect, since I don't believe the list of mayors for a town the size of Teaneck would be notable as a standalone article under the WP:GNG. SportingFlyer talk 02:08, 4 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that's a point of contention for another AfD I suppose. SEMMENDINGER (talk) 02:13, 4 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Just putting it on the record. SportingFlyer talk 02:36, 4 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@SportingFlyer:, I agree with you, but we'd have to reopen another discussion, which I'm not going to do right now, see Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mayors_of_Teaneck,_New_Jersey_(2nd_nomination)--Rusf10 (talk) 03:55, 4 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Hats off to User:Enigmaman for creating the article on Katz, which was long overdue for a two-term mayor (including interim tenure). The article is well-sourced. In the worst case scenario, you could call for a redirect, rather than a deletion, rather than lose the existing content and editor contributions, but a full stand-alone bio is preferable.Scanlan (talk) 14:21, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Except it's not well-sourced. 1 is about the town, 2 mentions the subject two or three times and is local in spite of being the NYT, 3 is a hyper-local self-published article, 4 is an alumni article dead link, 5 is MILL, 6 and 7 isn't about him, nor is 8, and 9 is an interview with him which doesn't cut it but is probably the best source, and 10-14 are all links he wrote himself or would fail WP:PROMO. It's local political cruft, and we'd delete it for states other than New Jersey. SportingFlyer talk 17:59, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Scanlan^Talk 04:48, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Per WP:SIGCOV. Article does need to be moved to Elie Katz per WP:COMMONNAME. gidonb (talk) 01:17, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per @Malik Shabazz: at the first two AfDs:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Eleanor_Kieliszek

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mayors_of_Teaneck,_New_Jersey

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mayors_of_Teaneck,_New_Jersey_(2nd nomination). Husounde (talk) 05:18, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Notability is all about press coverage. As the first Orthodox Jewish mayor and the youngest mayor of Teaneck, Katz received plenty of press coverage. Throughout New Jersey. Across the river in New York, the media capital of the world. Across the United States. Around the world. You may not like it, but in many cases, being the first [fill in the blank] makes an ordinary, even pedestrian, person notable. Notability doesn't require greatness, or even accomplishments; merely that the press pay attention. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 05:39, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really care, I'm just really frustrated that your NY Times article isn't actually about the subject, nor is the Haaretz article, and the jta.org article does not seem to be all that independent of the subject. Being the first fill-in-the-blank of a town of 40,000 people isn't an automatic notability granter, and the press really isn't paying all that much attention. SportingFlyer talk 06:05, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Bullshit. You do care, very much, or you wouldn't be WP:BLUDGEONing the process, making nearly 20% of the edits to this page. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 23:52, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is uncalled for. SportingFlyer talk 00:06, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, sourcing is not in-depth coverage and he is not the first in the world, America, or even New Jersey. The first (fill in the blank) mayor of every town in America does not automatically qualify for an article.--Rusf10 (talk) 17:31, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And like Tweedledum and Tweedledee, here's the other WP:BLUDGEON who has made 20% of the edits to this page. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 23:52, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Your comments here are completely uncalled for, see WP:CIVILITY--Rusf10 (talk) 00:09, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I went ahead and moved the article per above. See also under: Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Keep she meets GNG, which is all that really matters, per the sources from Enigmaman. This is a borderline case but the rs are there. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 08:17, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep new sources brought: meets WP:GNG.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:43, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.