Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ellis Eames

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Trending keep after improvements. Sandstein 12:15, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ellis Eames

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Being a mayor of a city does not give someone default notability. In the case of Easmes he was for 1 year maor of a place that had less than 2,000 people, possibly well under that number. None of the sourcing is the type of indepdent, 3rd party reliable sourcing we need to establish notability. John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:36, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep It is not as a small town mayor that he is notable but rather as the only member of Brigham Young's 1847 first expedition of 144 to fail to reach the Great Salt Lake. He later reached Utah but then seemingly abandoned the Mormon faith. This 1847 voyage was the first wave of massive Mormon emigration to Utah. A Google Books search shows plenty of coverage such as this. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:59, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Your source here does not support your claims. It says Eames was "one of the very few" of 149 not to make it to Salt Lake City, not the only one.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:16, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Every morning (there's a halo...) 04:38, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I can't find any sources that in my mind establish notability. The amount of coverage talking about how he turned back on the expedition is pretty sparse - there are a number of sources, but the primary source only mentions he turned back with a bunch of letters. I can't find anything about his mayoral position, but I also sort of hope someone can save Ellis from deletion. SportingFlyer talk 21:46, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Regardless of whether he was the only, or one of the only, members of an expedition to fail to reach the destination, that is not a notability claim in and of itself — and the reference given above for that does not represent substantive coverage about him, but merely a glancing namecheck of his existence in one paragraph of a book about something else. But nothing else here is a strong enough notability claim to exempt him from having to be referenced much better than this is — Provo is large enough that a well-sourced article about a mayor could be kept, but not large enough that its mayors get an automatic presumption of notability just for existing if the sourcing isn't cutting it. Bearcat (talk) 18:28, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Beyond this, I think we should judge mayor's based on the size of their city when they were mayor, not based on its present size. It is hard to say what Provo's population was during the one year Eames was mayor, while most people who moved south from Salt Lake City in late 1857 had returned north by 1858 when the threat of the mob in disguise of a US army destroying and mass raping was no longer felt, it is probably some who moved south stayed, and the general level of LDS migration to Utah was high at least through 1856, and the population also was experiencing natural population growth, so th 2000 some odd in Provo in 1860 is probably a lot more than what there were for the year Eames was mayor. I have to admit that I remain less than convinced John R. Williams one year of service as mayor of Detroit makes him notable.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:35, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - I can't say I necessarily agree with the idea that a mayor's notability should be contingent on the population his city had at the time he was mayor — even New York City once had a population of just a couple of thousand people, but it's large and important enough now that the notability of its overall political history means we should still have an article about every mayor it's ever had regardless of any "what was its population at the time this person was mayor" criterion. That doesn't necessarily apply equally to all cities, I'll grant — I'm certainly not deluded enough to think that there's as much broad interest in the political history of the 160K city I grew up in as there is in the political histories of major cities with populations in the millions — but it does mean such a test can't be an invariable blanket rule. Bearcat (talk) 17:57, 5 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, A Train^talk 07:26, 3 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Utah-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 07:58, 3 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Shall we also delete John Winthrop because Massachusetts was such a small colony at the time? Pioneers in all fields and periods do accrue notability (i.e., coverage in reliable sources) by being pioneers.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:45, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep sources on Ellis can be found under both spellings, Eames and Ames. And that he was also one of the victims of the Haun's Mill massacre (bullet hole through his coat.) Improvement to the page can start by clicking JSTOR on the search bar, 3 articles on Mormon pioneers come up. Sources do exist, page just needs improvement.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:40, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I looked at the JSTOR article that claims to mentioned Eames, but evidently my reading was not close enough because I missed the evidently very passing mentions. "Ellis Ames" shows up lots and lots of stuff, but none that I could tell related to that individual. Gregory's claims do not add up. We do not have articles even on all those who made it to Salt Lake City with Brigham Young, I see even less reason to have an article on someone who didn't make it.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:38, 5 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that you chose not to actually read three, long academic articles. But please do not make assertions like "claims do not add up" when you choose not to read the sources.E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:53, 5 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I read the one article I could find by my search. Your extreme rude comments are totally uncalled for and a complete breach of assume good faith.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:35, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There are 3 articles in the JSTOR search. I randomly picked the 2nd., by Ronald E. Romig, Journal of Mormon History, to read; a detailed section about Eames and his two wives starts in the middle of p. 82, marked by a page break and subhead: Olive Jane Gibbs Ames/Eames. I have added details to the page. Olive Eames lived into the 1890s, when she sat for a photo and published an article about the Eames massacre.E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:44, 5 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

More material about his life comes up in a gBooks search on "Ellis Eames" + "San Bernardino". Searching "Ellis Eames" + "Latter Day Saints," brings up a number of sources from which the sentence on Eames getting sick (one says "spitting blood",) and turning back during the 1847 expedition can be expanded. Of course, Wikipedia:Deletion is not cleanup, nevertheless I cleaned the article up a little and I think that the objections of editors above have been met.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:27, 5 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I added some more sources. All of them are passing, but they add a substantial amount of insight into his life (another name spelling, mission trip, mill operator, publication of reminiscences, photograph). I'm not sure of the provenance of one source published by provolibrary.com[1] (and don't want to cite it for fear of citogenesis), but it references another source, "David M. Walden, Biographical Sketches of Former Mayors of Provo, Utah: A Report to the Provo Municipal Government, October 1, 1990, 5-7." which seems to be a fair source if someone has access to it. Smmurphy^(Talk) 16:04, 5 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Mission trip is never a term Mormons use. It is an extreme sign of cultural ignorance to ever use it when referring to a Mormon.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:36, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - Johnson, the source for that statement, is not, I think an academic. The book, calls it a mission, not a mission trip. I'll change it. Thanks, Smmurphy^(Talk) 02:22, 9 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep In aggregate, the sources satisfy WP:BASIC and allow for an article that conveys more biographical detail about the subject than just being a mayor and the routine events associated with the position. 24.151.50.175 (talk) 15:30, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.