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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep. Mindmatrix 20:22, 17 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Fran's_Restaurant,_Toronto

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I suspect this is a vaniety page, living in Toronto for 20+ years I've never heard of this place, and it contains only a vague assertion of noteworthiness with no real evidence, a quick web survey reveals nothing to distinguish it from thousands of other random restaurants in Hogtown WilyD 18:57, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. A nice restaurant, I'm sure, but Toronto must have hundreds of nice restaurants. JoaoRicardo talk 20:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment been in operation for 65 years so might be of note. However, the article needs verifiable references to establish that it is a notable restaurant.

Capitalistroadster 22:24, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Fran's was a chain of 24 hour diners, something like the Golden Griddle. Used to have about half a dozen restarants around town. I remember at least Yonge & College, Yonge & St. Clair, and Yonge & Eglinton branches. Last time I was in Toronto only the Yonge & College remained. Jamie 03:37, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep -- Fran's is a very well-known institution in Toronto, and is a piece of local history. It went bankrupt a few years back, and was reduced to one location. When a second location opened last year at Shuter and Victoria, it received a fair amount of media coverage. The chain has a lot of local notariety -- people either love it or hate it. The article right now is just a stub, but could be made into something quite worthy. Skeezix1000 22:36, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

    I just noticed that the external link in the article (which links to a piece in Eye, a local paper) even says the following in the first line: "For 52 years, Fran's Restaurants has been a Toronto landmark, as much a part of the city as the Leafs or High Park." Skeezix1000 22:37, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • When I was nine years old, growing up hundreds of miles from Toronto, I already knew what Fran's was. It really is that famous. To have lived in Toronto without ever having heard of Fran's, when I'd heard of Fran's before I'd ever been here for a day, frankly suggests that someone — either the nominator or me — is living in an alternate version of reality that doesn't even faintly resemble the one most people live in. I'm not entirely sure that things of purely local notability really deserve articles, but when an article is nominated for deletion based on reasoning that's so wildly out of accordance with my own understanding of things, a keep vote is really the only thing I can do. If I'm the one living in a weird mirror universe, so be it. Bearcat 23:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment To suggest that its as much of a cultural institution as the Leafs are is pure patent madness - doing a quick survey of a half a dozen friends who all lived in Toronto for 15+ years, not a single one had heard of it. I just made the natural assumption upon seeing a random looking article about a restaurant I've never heard of that's in the city I grew up in and live in - that it was a vaniety article placed there by someone affliated with the restaurant. With a number of Torontonians (and non-Torontonians!) having at least heard of it, it may be worthy of an article, though it'd be nice if the article somehow distinguished its importance compared to say, Hollinger's or Ted's Restaurant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WilyD (talk • contribs) JoaoRicardo talk 16:16, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]


  • Keep I find the comments that Torontonians haven't heard of it to be suspect. Keep in mind that these comments come from an anonymous editor, and the nominator, who seems to be new to Wikipedia. Fran's is a Toronto institution, and anyone who has lived here for any period of time will know of it. New arrivals may not know it because the chain was shrunk down to one location recently. It is the sort of place that I take out of town visitors to for a diner breakfast because of its heritage. Ground Zero | t 16:11, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • I beg to disagree here. The fact that someone is new to Wikipedia does not mean we shouldn't trust this person's capacity to know what is and what isn't notable. Let's assume good faith. JoaoRicardo talk 17:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'll withdraw that comment on the basis of WilyD's comment below, which show that the nomination was made in good faith. I don't think that it is unfair to point out that a nominator is new because a new user may not be familiar with the deletion process. Furthermore, new users may, in some cases, be sockpuppets. In WilyD's case, however, I am sure that s/he is legitimate. I will point out, however, that notability has not been accepted by the Wikipedia community as grounds for deletion, no matter how much people keep using it as their reason for deleting an article. Ground Zero | t 17:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • You mean lack of notability has not been accepted as grounds for deletion? Why do you say so? JoaoRicardo talk 21:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
          • See the grounds for deletion at Wikipedia:Deletion policy, and, for interest, Jimbo Wales' view on notability, as expressed in the poll where notability failed to become an accepted reason for deletion. Ground Zero | t 21:49, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
            • Sorry, but I haven't found any mention to notability on the first article you indicated. Could you please point it to me? Thanks for providing the link to the poll, I wasn't aware one had ever ocurred. However, Wales' opinion, with all due respect to you, is a) irrelevant, since I don't work for him and neither follow his guidance in any way; b) not suited to this occasion, since he talks about fame and importance, and we were talking about notability, which is a diferent concept. What is being discussed here is not wether Fran's Cafe is famous (ie, lots of people from Toronto have heard about it), but wether it is notable (ie, it stands out from all the other hundreds or thousands of Toronto restaurants). I don't mean to be rude, Ground Zero, and I hope you don't take offense on what I have said. JoaoRicardotalk 22:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
              • I guess that I should have been clearer: you didn't find any reference to notability at Wikipedia:Deletion policy because there is none. Another way of putting it is that lack of notability is not an accepted grounds for deletion -- it's not in the policy on deletion. The Jimbo Wales thing was for interest only, and not intended to be for guidance. "Fame and importance" and "notability" were being used interchangably in that debate, I think. I don't see how you've been rude, and I haven't taken offence. If you'd be so kind as to point out how you've been rude, however, I'd gladly taken offence since I am so accommodating. ;-) Regards, Ground Zero | t 23:07, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This is a somewhat notable restaurant, with significant local history. Cleduc 16:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Actually, the unsigned comment was my bad Ground Zero. It is true that I'm fairly new to Wikipedia, having joined only a couple of months ago. This is, in fact, my first nomination under AfD. It certainly seems fairly certain the consensus will be to keep, and I'm not particularly opposed to it, given the large number of opinions that it has significance. However, multiple users making the assertion that one can't live in Toronto and be unaware of the place is awfully strange - maybe it's a generational thing? I'm 23, and no one I asked about it was older than about 27 - mayhaps I should ask my grandparents if they've ever heard of it? If it historically was a somewhat big deal, but is just faded into obscurity, that would make more sense to me - but to claim is as much of a landmark as the Toronto Maple Leafs or the Toronto Maple Leafs is pretty absrud - I'd even find it tough to believe it has as much cultural significance as the Toronto Lynx. WilyD 16:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • You could ask your parents, too. They should know. If they don't, they should get out more. The Wikipedia article makes no claim to Fran's being on a par with either Leafs. The Eye article calls it a landmark, and "as much as part of Toronto as the Leafs". This may be an exaggeration, but I'm not here to defend Eye. The Eye reference serves only to support the claim in the Wiki article that Fran's is a "historic restaurant chain". Ground Zero | t 17:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Seeing as how Fran's has been at Yonge + College for ages, just a block or two away from Maple Leaf Gardens, hockey fans likely filled up Fran's before and after the Leafs games for decades. As much of an exaggeration as the Eye reference might be, I am sure that there are thousands of older hockey fans in this city who think of Fran's when they think of the Leafs. So, the reference might not be as absurd as some people are suggesting. Skeezix1000 22:31, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep (and enhance) This is a notable chain of restaurants in The Big Smoke and deserves an article (and requires sources). Though not a reason to keep the article, I periodically make my way to the one on College St. after slovenly pleasures ;)) (As per Bearcat, there's at least another one at the Pantages Tower; more ... posh.) If it must go (shame!), there should be a unified article created detailing substantial regional chains (Lick's, et al.). E Pluribus Anthony 16:54, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in, anytime. :) The Yonge & College location's not far by TTC. Cheers, Madmagic 18:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in, too (6 blocks from my house) Cleduc 19:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mild Keep I have been going to restaurants in Toronto for upwards of 30 years, and I have not been to Fran's, but I do know of it, however it's not famous to suburbanites. I've been here so long, most of the great restaurants of Fran's age have all closed down leaving me in the lurch. I would guess downtowners would make more of a historical fuss about it. I've had to move on to the newer restaurants, very few of which are here on Wikipedia. I'm not sure if that's important to the issue at hand, however. Jok2000 18:06, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment Understood. I live in Hell, so it's not merely a downtown ... idiosyncrasy. :) E Pluribus Anthony 18:19, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I'm not from Toronto, but have visited there several times. Frans is so much of an institution that it appears as a recommended eatery in many travel books on Toronto. I've been there a few times personally. If the foreign press travel guides thinks it merits inclusion then I think it really should stay. Ben W Bell 18:07, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I ate at Fran's for the first time on Friday and I must say that it was the best diner food I've ever had, especially the fries. I've known of the resturant since I moved here almost 1 year ago. (though that's because I live just a few blocks away at church/Gerrard) Anyways, given the history of the chain and the quality of the food there I would highly recommend that it stays. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.222.93.183 (talk • contribs)
  • Strong Keep My parents ate at Fran's when they were dating in the 1940s. It was a Toronto institution even back then. In the 1960s Fran's was noteable for being one of very few restaurants in all of Toronto the Good which were open all night, and those of us who (ahem) had cause to be up late knew it well. The chain has grown small; but there's still the sense of an institution when you walk past the College Street location. Franfries! With gravy! Cheers, Madmagic 18:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I hate Fran's, but it's definitely a cultural landmark. Speaking of the Maple Leafs, my memories of Fran's are intertwined with Hockey. My dad used to take me to Frans for a milkshake after taking me to a Leafs game at Maple Leaf Gardens. It was open 24 hours at the time, and I think in many ways, Frans was to our parents something similar to what Sneaky Dees or the Green Room are to us. Fade 19:11, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Still is open 24 hours, actually...I've done the occasional 3 a.m. "can't sleep, need milkshake" run myself. Not that I particularly like the place, either, but you can't be too picky at 3 in the morning when everything else is closed. Bearcat 19:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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