Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Free State of Chukotka

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:16, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Free State of Chukotka

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Possibly a hoax. J. Minahan's book mentions the state in question very briefly and without any citations, and the two other sources don't mention "Free State of Chukotka" at all. Google search in Russian similarly yields only a few passing mentions on websites that don't look like reliable sources; no mentions in academic sources at all, which is unusual for historical states, even short-lived ones. Overall, the article fails WP:V. Finstergeist (talk) 19:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politics and Russia. Owen× ☎ 19:32, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, either a hoax or not enough coverage in RS. Wikisaurus (talk) 21:00, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, why would Minahan make this up? As far as I can tell every other entry in his book did exist, why would he decide to make up the free state of Chukotka specifically. Passing mentions are still mentions. Yes the State only existed for a few days, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist. Are you saying the soviets made up the whole RevKom situation? That Mikhail Mandrikov and Avgust Berzin, who have a statue in Andayr, where simply figments of Soviet propaganda? Scu ba (talk) 01:51, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The anti-Soviet coup in Anadyr was definitely real, but I have yet to see any sources that link it to "Free State of Chukotka" or anything like that. So far the only sources that directly mention "Free State of Chukotka" are Minahan's book and this list of flags, everything else seems unrelated. The lack of coverage in works by professional historians is definitely suspicious. Finstergeist (talk) 20:43, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can accept the flag being a hoax, this wouldn't be the first time this has happened with a remote anti-soviet government in Siberia, but there was still an anti-soviet government. If it wasn't called the free state, what was it called? Scu ba (talk) 18:58, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update: this page confirms both "Free State of Chukotka" and its "flag" to be a hoax made up by someone named O.I. Tarnovsky. "In 1990s some well-known Russian fake flag fabricator made "flag of Chukotka" and sent that flag to Pavillons, Flag Reports, etc. This seems to be also the origin of fake Civil War flags of Yakutia, Kamchatka, etc. and fake 1990's Russian Oblast and Republic flags" (see here at the bottom). Tarnovsky's publications also are likey to be the source for the entry in Minahan's list. So, Strong Delete. Finstergeist (talk) 20:55, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a blog, that has a .ru domain, we're going to need something a little more concrete, and editorial. Also that blog states that the 1991 free state was a hoax, not the 1921 version. Scu ba (talk) 18:59, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
vexillographia.ru is not a blog but the official site of Russian Centre of Vexillology and Heraldry (member of FIAV), and it's generally considered to be a reliable source. The page states that Oleg Tarnovsky made up the existence of "Free State of Chukotka" (October 1921 - December 1922) after watching the movie Chief of Chukotka in the 1980s, and in early 1993 he has submitted his fabrications to some French and Spanish bulletins. This entirely explains the apparent lack of mentions of that "state" in any sources published before 1993. Finstergeist (talk) 12:55, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I don't see why Minahan would include a fictional state, it definitely existed for a short time but the mentions of the flag being a hoax may be right and need to be looked into and verified but I see no reason to delete the page. AvailableViking (talk) 03:26, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the Russian Wikipedia, a similar article was deleted due to a proven hoax. So this article also needs to be deleted.--Vladimir Solovjev (talk) 09:25, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, I haven't found a single mention in reliable Russian-language sources, so probably a hoax (or a misunderstanding). Still, I'll check a couple books on Chukotkan history at my university library later to see if this state is mentioned, though I suspect it won't be. I've also placed a hold on the Minahan book to see if I can figure anything out from there. Dylanvt (talk) 18:52, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Minahan himself says "The names of states and the dates of independence are often a matter of confusion or dispute. The state names are subject to translation and interpretation, and the dates of independence are subject to confusion with declarations of sovereignty or intent, the date the event was reported or the declaration report received, or the differences in the calendars in use at the time", so it is not quite verified information. Wikisaurus (talk) 18:52, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The only relevant book I could get my hands on was Чукотка: Зигзаги истории малых народов Севера by М.И. Куликов, published 2002 in Veliky Novgorod. Part 3 of the book discusses early Sovietization of Chukotka, detailing the history from the revolution all the way through the 1920s, including the years 1921 and 1922, with not a single mention of a "Free State of Chukotka" or anything like it. I think it's safe to say this was not a real entity and can be deleted. Dylanvt (talk) 20:01, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Evenly divided between those editors who argue that the article subject is a hoax and those editors who think it isn't. Calling all historians!
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:17, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. No reliable sources, in all likelihood a hoax. Ostalgia (talk) 12:16, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete insufficient reliable sources that the state was ever proclaimed or existed. Likely hoax. Sourced content could be moved to other articles like Chukotka Autonomous Okrug which only mentions the Free State and not any of the better sourced political struggles/violence that occurred at that time. Eluchil404 (talk) 02:27, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note the Russian civil war is poorly documented in English on a detailed level so its hard to find much information when it comes to the anarchy the occurred during it AvailableViking (talk) 21:11, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.