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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The keep side has not been able to successfully refute the statements by the delete voters that the article fails WP:ONEEVENT and WP:NOTNEWS. NW (Talk) 18:04, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Herman Rockefeller

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Herman Rockefeller (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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The article does not meet the notability requirements outlined in Wikipedia:Notability (criminal acts). This is better suited to a Wikinews article. Even if the incident itself were notable (in encyclopedic terms), such notability is not automatically conferred on the victim. See the policy here. Wikipeterproject (talk) 14:55, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • (Response) The article says next to nothing about his significance as a businessman. In fact it indicates that his disappearance and murder are the source of his "notability". I actually agree with the article in that respect - he is only known after the crime. His work as a businessman does not meet the notability requirements of WP:BIO. Many of the news articles in the Google search provided by Mkativerata relate to the Rockefellers in the US. I can only find 15 Google archive news articles relating to "Herman Rockefeller" between 1990 and 2010 ([1]) and most of those are quotes as a company spokesperson (for example, "Rockefeller says that the balance sheet is sound...") This isn't a strong case for notability. Wikipeterproject (talk) 22:13, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • (response) It doesn't matter. His missing person status and death makes him notable due to the publicity he has attracted. Madeline McCann was not notable before she was reported missing either. Her newsworthiness makes her notable now. Wallie (talk) 08:00, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(Response). Why doesn't it matter? If he wasn't notable before the incident, then the incident itself is what needs to be debated. In that case the notability guidelines of criminal acts and (given that this is an article about the individual and not the incident), the notability of the victim are what is important. WP:VICTIM provides the guidelines and, if read objectively, there's no doubt that HR is not notable. In case you don't want to look it up, the notability of a victiom is 1) due to notability before he/she became a victiom; or 2) the victim, as a victim, played a significant role in the incident and the incident has historical significance. Historical significance cannot yet be determined, as it is a recent event. So, my point (which I believe is established in the debate here) is that he was not notable prior to becoming a victim and, as a victim, is not notable under the policy guidelines of WP:VICTIM. I'd be interested in a keep argument proving otherwise, but so far (as at 6 February) I remain completely unconvinced by any of the arguments raised - and I'd be as bold to suggest that any objective analysis of Wikipedia's notability policy would lead to the same conclusion. Wikipeterproject (talk) 11:55, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NOTNEWS, WP:ONEVENT. LibStar (talk) 06:39, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. Above comment. --SamB135 TalkContribs 08:10, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • (Respone). If the event itself is the notable thing, which it may be in relation to WP:CRIME, then that should be the subject of the article, not the victim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikipeterproject (talk • contribs)
  • Essential to Keep This is clearly a criminal act which is notable for the prominence of the victim, coinciding with the luridity of his lifestyle. Preservation for the record of the coincidence of the two qualities is notable for the science of sociology, where a better understading of this type of lifestyle and this prominent personality type is of paramount value for a better understanding of socioeconomics and psychology, also known as psychoeconomics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.219.240.155 (talk) 08:39, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WP:ITSUSEFUL. LibStar (talk) 06:39, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. None of the above keeps provide reasons in accordance with WP policy, as per WP:BIO or WP:VICTIM. With regard to the notability of victims, the policy states "A victim of a high-profile crime does not automatically qualify as being notable enough to have a stand-alone article solely based on his or her status as a victim. Notability with regards to this is normally defined as satisfying some other aspect of the notability of persons guideline..." So, we have to look at the notability of the crime itself or of Mr Rockefeller's life before the crime. If it's the crime that's notable, that should perhaps be the subject of the article, not the victim. Before the crime, Mr Rockefeller was a very ordinary and, according to his family's own press statement, a very private person. 15 news articles in 20 years - most just quoting him as a company spokesperson certainly doesn't make him notable. With regard to the crime as an example of psychoeconomics, if that is indeed the case, I would recommend a merge with Psychoeconomics. I feel that this deletion must be argued in accordance with policy, otherwise we have a case of Wikipedia becoming a newspaper, in breach of WP:NOTNEWS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikipeterproject (talk • contribs)
      • The Wikipedia guideline WP:ANYBIO notes that "a person is generally notable if they meet any of the following standards ... (1) The person has received a notable award or honor". The Sydney Morning Herald notes that Rockefeller "holds a masters degree in business administration (honours, George Fisher Baker scholar), from the Harvard Graduate School of Business." [3]. Wikipedia notes that the top academic honor at HBS is the Baker Scholar designation (High Distinction), given to the top 5% of the graduating MBA class. Top 5% in top business school ... notable? WWGB (talk) 11:00, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment: The Baker Award is, in my opinion, the first valid argument to keep the article. This does, however raise a few questions/issues, which would be helpful to discuss in resolving this debate:
        • Is the Baker Award notable? It doesn't have an WP entry in its own right , nor is there an list of winners (cf. List of Rhodes Scholars
        • We still have a single event situation - all the references for the entire article are from the disapperance and murder. That makes it look, prima facie, that there was no notability before the event. The Baker Award is a single sentence in a news article about the crime. Are there any other sources?
Wikipeterproject (talk) 14:54, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Compromise. Alright, since I created the article, I could create one, like many of you said that relates to the actual murder of him. This is big news in Australia and New Zealand, and it also made news in the United States - I definitely believe something about it should be on Wikipedia. I could create something like, Murder of Herman Rockefeller or Disappearance of Herman Rockefeller, and just merge him into it, though like many other pages it would probably be better to just keep the murder article in with his bio. --SamB135 TalkContribs 22:54, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is no need to "compromise" anything. There is no argument here from "many of you". Just one editor is strongly defending the deletion of the article. Let's just wait for the AfD to take its course. WWGB (talk) 23:26, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid reason. LibStar (talk) 23:51, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
clearly a weak WP:ITSNOTABLE argument. LibStar (talk) 10:35, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WP:JUSTAVOTE LibStar (talk) 05:12, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The Herman Rockefeller article had over 12,000 visits in its first week, which suggests that the Wikipedia community finds it a useful encyclopedic article that summarises the past and present publicly-available information concerning Rockefeller. WWGB (talk) 05:05, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WP:ITSUSEFUL, the number of visits would relate to his high current media presence particularly in Australia, the best test would be 3-6 months time. Wikipedia:RECENT#News_spikes clearly applies here. LibStar (talk) 05:12, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This case has captivated the interest of the nation and the article will also be of interest as the murder trial progresses. He was a person of interest in life and a notable business person, so this article's creation is timely. Matt (talk) 12:53, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(Response): WP:INTERESTING states "personal interest...is not a valid reason to keep or delete an article..." As far as notability is concerned, this needs to be argued against valid WP policy guidelines, otherwise I believe WP:JUSTAVOTE appiles. Wikipeterproject (talk) 16:59, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Herman Rockefeller IS notable in Australia and in New Zealand, in the latter case because of his public relationsihp with Prime Minister John Key. Anyone who has been in the news as much as he has been is surely notable. One question I haven't been able to resolve is whether or not he is related to the Rockefeller family, or whether the name is just a coincidence. If anybody has any sources either way, it would be helpful to clear the matter up here. David Cannon (talk) 10:37, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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