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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Israeli–Palestinian conflict. Sarahj2107 (talk) 08:32, 19 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Israel Palestine conflict

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Israel Palestine conflict (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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This page was created by user:Oncenawhile in violation of the community consensus regarding the definition of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (see the discussion where the scope of the conflict was discussed), with his proposal to group 1920-1948 sectarian conflict in British Palestine, 1948-present Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the broader 1948-1973 Arab-Israeli conflict under one article was rejected. While Oncenawhile refused to delete or redirect this page himself per WP:GF on the grounds that disambiguation page is not an article, he was very determined to de-facto change wikipedia redirects (such as this edit) and article content (see [1], [2], [3]) to reflect his position. Furthermore, this newly created Israel Palestine conflict disambiguation page might also violate the previous status quo of refraining from creating new "Israel Palestine" titled articles (see the case of Palisrael and case of Israel-Palestine).
In summary - proposed for deletion or redirect to Israeli-Palestinian conflict article. GreyShark (dibra) 14:26, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions. GreyShark (dibra) 14:37, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. GreyShark (dibra) 14:37, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Crh23: The issue is that our wikipedia article "Israeli-Palestinian conflict" is defined very narrowly, only referring to the conflict post-1948 and excluding the wider Arab-Israeli component of the same. Whereas in the real world, scholars almost unanimously discuss the conflict as beginning in 1917 or 1920 when the British took over, and cover the whole lot together.
It's the difference between the longer-term and multi faceted War in Afghanistan (1978–present) vs. the War in Afghanistan (2001–14) that is more commonly discussed today.
Oncenawhile (talk) 15:52, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Number 57: can you please provide your views on the underlying question at hand here - when the "the wider conflict" (under whatever name you choose to call it) actually began? Oncenawhile (talk) 23:02, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to Israeli-Palestinian conflict as per above. I suggest that this could easily have been redirected per WP:BOLD, but for the fact that it's this topic. Oncenawhile, If you are concerned with the definition of the term, then having an article here that defines it differently than at the hyphenated title isn't going to clarify anything. Best to discuss the issue there. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 20:44, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Ultraexactzz: Thanks for the advice. I've opened a direct discussion on the question underlying all of this at Talk:Arab–Israeli_conflict#RFC:_Is_this_the_whole_conflict's_parent_article?. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:57, 12 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I was involved in the discussion where it was decided not to create this page, and so were Wykx, Number 57 and presumably others (you are welcome to check one by one, I didn't bother). “WarKosign” 11:34, 12 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Wykx: can you please provide your views on the underlying question at hand here - when the "the wider conflict" (under whatever name you choose to call it) actually began? Oncenawhile (talk) 23:02, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please see Talk:List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts/Archive_8#Starting_date_of_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict. Wykx (talk) 17:42, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Wykx: thanks - an interesting discussion. It seems like you and Mateo share my passion for finding a solution for the current mess, although we all seem to have different views as to what the outcome should be. Perhaps you could share your views at Talk:Arab–Israeli_conflict#RFC:_Is_this_the_whole_conflict's_parent_article?.
Your chart above is interesting and shows the problem well. Your view starts the conflict in 1947, and although you exclude events like the King David bombing or the Hebron massacre, it still means that no article covers the whole lot because our Arab-Israeli conflict article starts in May 1948. It is all very muddled. Oncenawhile (talk) 20:56, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your compliment and tag. This issue is a total mass.

I have mentioned in my conversation with Wykx that setting clear cut dates on historical processes, especially conflicts, is a mistake. It's always artificial and most times just raises more stir.

The conflicts regarding Israel are good example. No conflict started at 1947, it's clearly a false compromise. The Arab-Israeli conflict began way before, while the Palestinian-Israeli one couldn't be possible.

After explaining extensively that these conflicts should be separate, I would suggest setting all starting points of the Israeli-Arab conflict to "Late 19th century" and the Israeli Palestinian ones to "mid 20th century", and let the sides interpret it as they like. Not all historical events "began" one sunny afternoon. Most did not. But considering this is an unorthodox way to look at history, i did measured the complexity of the issue at hand and suggest a starting date.

First of all This article should be completely deleted. It's an original research with clear POV background that got into a huge snowball messing up the whole issue at hand. Most of it's important data appears in the politics section of the mandate article anyway, and the rest can be solved by sticking with the two known conflicts of the region: The Arab-Israeli and the Israeli-Palestinian. Now because the former conflict (Israeli-Arab) should cover it all as you say, it should probably start with the first Zionist immigration to Israel/Palestine (than ottoman province). If one defines a conflicts in a more narrow sense of two clear sides under intentional physical struggle, then one might consider the reaction to Balfur's declaration as the start of the more general conflict. The later conflict should start in 1964, around the time the PLO got independent from the interests of Arab state, while still in the Arab league.

  • Deleted - This new article reclines on an article that should be deleted, it should be deleted as well.

With regards, 23:11, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

  • Redirect I agree with the claim that there were conflicts in the area that are not covered in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which is limited to after the foundation of the state of Israel in 1948, but the good reason is that indeed there can not be an Israeli Palestinian conflict without there being an Israel first. Debresser (talk) 21:52, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Debresser: but there was an "Israel" in the minds of the Zionists. From also day one there was a push to change the name of Palestine to Eretz Israel. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:02, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@OtterAM: I strongly feel that most people searching for "Israel Palestine Conflict" are looking for an overview of the whole conflict. What makes you think they are only looking to understand only a specific niche within the story starting 30 years after the wider conflict began and excluding the wider Arab conflict? The current situation is bizarre. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:02, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@WarKosign: can you please provide your views on the underlying question at hand here - when the "the wider conflict" (under whatever name you choose to call it) actually began? Oncenawhile (talk) 15:55, 12 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Intercommunal conflict in Mandatory Palestine began in 1920, and there is an article dedicated to it. Arab–Israeli conflict originates in the late 19th century. There is no need to add another article to further confuse matters. “WarKosign” 16:03, 12 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@WarKosign: Our Arab–Israeli conflict states that it "refers to the political tension, military conflicts and disputes between a number of Arab countries and Israel" and that this conflict started in 1948. Its history section begins in 1948.
Which article do you interpret to be the "parent" article, relating to the overall conflict? Or do you believe there is no article relating to the overall conflict but don't consider that to be a problem?
Oncenawhile (talk) 16:31, 12 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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