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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. Two relists and, as per Stifle's last, there is no consensus for any action here - either relating to the article being deleted or indeed the article being reframed as about the event. Further discussion about the latter should take place on the talk page. Daniel (talk) 01:01, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Issam Abdallah

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Issam Abdallah (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Seems like a pretty clear case of WP:BLP1E. The only details of his life beyond the event that killed him are from an obituary. An anonymous username, not my real name 14:56, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: There is very much a notable topic here, whether or not the page is more about the man or more about the event. WP:BLP1E notes that a single event should not alone support a biography "If the event is not significant or the individual's role was either not substantial or not well documented." - but here this is evidently not the case: this is a high profile and significant shelling of a journalist team. Reporters Without Borders would not be investigating it if it were not. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:22, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:28, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Nominator comment: @Unbandito: and @Iskandar323: I still don't see why this individual needs his own article. The event is certainly notable, but it killed others as well, and that even if it had only affected him, the article would still be best focused and named for an event, not styled as a biography. Could we perhaps discuss moving instead? If there is any support for this idea, I am willing to clean up the article to be better suited to whatever title it is moved to. Anonymous 02:06, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    He was the only journalist killed in the incident, while six other journalists were injured. I agree that a page for the event could exist, but I am not convinced that adapting this biography is the best way of creating such a page - not least since there is now an extraordinary amount of coverage out there about Abdullah, and it warrants a standalone page. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:30, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I still don't understand why adapting this biography wouldn't be the best way to go about such an endeavor. No matter how much coverage Abdullah gets, it is still primarily about the circumstances of his death and the reactions to it, not about his life, which is discussed in one obituary. Anonymous 14:22, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Have you actually done a WP:BEFORE for pre-2023 coverage? Iskandar323 (talk) 17:37, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, and I performed a few more searches just now since you brought it up. I have consistently failed to find anything published before this month about Abdallah. I don't want this article to be deleted, but I do want Wikipedia's standards of notability to be upheld. Anonymous 00:14, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    We've established that the event of Abdallah's death was notable. He is also credited for his photography in Reuters articles from the 2020 Beirut Port Blast and the 2019 surrender of ISIS fighters at Deir-Ezzor, as well as other articles. [1] [2] [3] [4]
    If his previous work as a photojournalist is not notable, this is not a sufficient argument for deletion. The article should, at most, be renamed something like "Killing of Issam Abdallah". If it were, it could still be linked under relevant categories such as Category:People killed in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war and Category:Deaths by Israeli airstrikes by keeping the links in those articles as they are. Unbandito (talk) 01:19, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Sure, and I admit that I was mistaken in nominating this for deletion. I think that moving is indeed the best course of action. However, User:Iskandar323 has opposed this and the discussion has now shifted more into a move discussion. I am ready for this to be closed, but could I at least get your view on moving? I would be more than willing to clean up the article to better suit whatever new title it is moved to. The links you provided (and I am aware you did not state this and I am not putting words in your mouth) are still insufficient to establish notability for his life per WP:JOURNALIST, as they do not qualify as secondary coverage. Anonymous 02:32, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not 100% opposed to renaming it as something like "Killing of Issam Abdallah", but I'm not a huge fan of such titles either. All in all, that's best left to a naming discussion. But I still think the real solution here is to create a page on the shelling of the whole journalist team on the border, which has now been the subject of considerable external investigation. And these probes aren't just about Abdullah or his killing, but the entire incident. Incidentally, if you want to wrap this up quick and move onto an RM then you can always withdraw this nomination given that there has been no support for it thus far. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:56, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The page was created by a banned editor (User:Friedjof) and has been tagged for speedy deletion per WP:CSD#G5. —Kusma (talk) 15:06, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The speedy tag was removed because I overlooked Iskandar's nontrivial expansion. —Kusma (talk) 16:24, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Fails BIO1E as a biography, fails NEVENT, NOTNEWS, LASTING as an event. No objection to a consensus redirect.  // Timothy :: talk  08:56, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, per BIO1E as TimothyBlue points out. Researcher (Hebrew: חוקרת) (talk) 10:03, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, but move the page to "Killing of Issam Abdallah." RisingTzar (talk) 12:16, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Just to clarify, I agree with TimothyBlue & Researcher in that this does not qualify as a biography. It is more suitable as an article solely on the killing, similar to what was done with Killing of Shireen Abu Akleh. RisingTzar (talk) 12:21, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and move to Killing of Issam Abdallah or 2023 Israeli strike on reporters or some such title. If anybody actually reads WP:BIO1E they will see it is not a valid deletion rationale, and that what it calls for is covering the notable event instead of creating a biography (The general rule is to cover the event, not the person). Every BIO1E delete argument is a misrepresentation of policy and should be ignored. This is widely covered and meets GNG in spades. Among the sources showing in depth, sustained coverage are Oct 29: RSF initial report: Reuters journalist was killed in Lebanon in 'targeted' strike, Oct 14: Reuters journalist killed in Lebanon in missile fire from direction of Israel, Oct 13: Israeli attack in southern Lebanon kills journalist, wounds several others, Oct 13: Journalists Killed and Maimed in Israel-Lebanon Border Strike, Nov 6: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war, Nov 6: A deadly month for a press at war. Oct 16: UNESCO Director-General deplores death of journalist Issam Abdallah in Lebanon Oct 13: A Reuters cameraman is killed and six other journalists are injured near Lebanon’s southern border.. This has received sustained coverage since it occured, and it will continue to do so as Reporters Without Borders has launched an investigation and will be presenting findings in the future, which will lead to more coverage. nableezy - 13:53, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:NOTNEWS, WP:LASTING  // Timothy :: talk  14:07, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I have shown lasting coverage up until today. Making that, while an actual deletion rationale, one that is inapplicable, and can only be used if one refuses to look at the sources showing lasting coverage. Why are you refusing to look at the sources showing lasting coverage? WP:NOTNEWS is about routine coverage, are you under the impression that, according to Reporters Without Borders, a professional army targeting a group of reporters is a routine event? nableezy - 14:12, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The notability is extremely clear, and it's pretty obvious that if this content were at Killing of Issam Abdallah or 2023 Israeli strike on reporters there would be no discussion here (the nominator has all but admitted the same, and that they didn't really want deletion, just a move to a different title - one less biographically oriented). Iskandar323 (talk) 16:18, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    One more from the last 18 hours, BBC on another Israeli strike killing a journalist includes on Abdallah

    In Lebanon, prominent Reuters journalist Issam Abdallah was killed when covering Israeli rockets fired over the Israel-Lebanon border on 13 October. He was part of a group of journalists near the border town of Alma al-Shaab in southern Lebanon when he was hit by a rocket. Six other journalists were also injured in the strike.

    Shortly before Abdallah was killed, he posted on Instagram a picture of himself wearing a helmet and a flak jacket with the word "press" written on it.

    Six other journalists, including from Reuters, Al Jazeera and Agency France-Presse, were wounded. One of them, Reuters video journalist Maher Nazeh, said the teams "were filming missile fire coming from the direction of Israel when one struck Abdallah as he was sitting on a low stone wall near the rest of the group", according to a report published by the news agency.

    IDF spokesman Richard Hecht said the army was "deeply regretful for the incident" and was "actively investigating it" without saying that Israeli military was behind it.

    The claim that this does not have sustained, in depth coverage is quite simply not true, and if somebody repeats that false claim after having the evidence presented to them then their !vote should be given exactly 0 weight here. We can either argue based on substantiated facts or we can make things up to achieve whatever result we want, such as, as a totally random example, suppressing material on Israeli strikes on journalists. I will choose the former option, and I welcome discussion with anybody else that does so. nableezy - 14:59, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, I agree with fellow Wikipedians' assessment of the article as a BIO1E. EytanMelech (talk) 14:01, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    BIO1E is not a deletion rationale. nableezy - 14:01, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes it is  // Timothy :: talk  14:07, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    No, and anybody can read WP:BIO1E where it says When an individual is significant for their role in a single event, it may be unclear whether an article should be written about the individual, the event or both. In considering whether to create separate articles, the degree of significance of the event itself and of the individual's role within it should both be considered. The general rule is to cover the event, not the person. However, if media coverage of both the event and the individual's role grow larger, separate articles may become justified. Nowhere does it call for removal of material about an event because the initial article is titled as a biography. That is not debatable, and I dont understand why people are so easily misrepresenting policies that anybody can click and read themselves. nableezy - 14:13, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    1E does not give a pass on satisfying notability criteria because the subject was involved in an event. It does not say there should be a stand alone article about the event if the subject fails BIO.
    It states, "The general rule is to cover the event, not the person" and when this is evaluated as an EVENT instead of a BIO (which fails 1E) it fails WP:NOTNEWS, WP:LASTING.
    No objection to a consensus redirect  // Timothy :: talk  20:47, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I have shown lasting coverage from the time of the event until now. You have simply proclaimed it fails without any evidence and while ignoring the evidence that refutes your position. You have also claimed a policy that says news coverage of routine events applies to a non routine event that has sustained in depth coverage. I leave it to a closer to evaluate the strength of those arguments. nableezy - 11:21, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. BLP1E is a weak argument to me when Reuters publishes an extensive obituary. He may have been a Reuters employee, but news orgs don't routinely publish obituaries for non-notable employees; this, combined with the other coverage, is more than enough for me. Vanamonde (Talk) 22:16, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I think it's worth relisting to tease out whether there is a consensus in favour of making it an article about the event rather than the person. If I closed now it would be as no-consensus with no action.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Stifle (talk) 10:55, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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