Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jack Allen (Adventures in Odyssey)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Discussion to merge should take place at the talk page –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 15:31, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Jack Allen (Adventures in Odyssey)

[For the avoidance of doubt, I am nominating these pages for deletion, though am open to compromise per Addendum below] Part of a host of unsourced and unnotable subsidiary articles related to Adventures in Odyssey, a radio show whose own article does little to establish notability and contains virtually no verifiable information. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 04:13, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am also nominating the following related pages for the same reasons:

Moved to seperate AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eugene Sings!, per recommendation below. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 08:15, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 04:13, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum: while my preference is for simple deletion (the main AiO article is already chock full of unsourced material, and adding more such from mergers doesn't seem that good an idea), I would be willing to accept Deor's proposal to mainly redirect/merge (but keep List of Adventures in Odyssey characters & delete List of Adventures in Odyssey voice actors) as a compromise. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 02:34, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Radio-related deletion discussions. —Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 04:23, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. —Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 04:23, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep as most are main characters of a major, published, worldwide radio, television and other media program. Eugene Sings! is an album, released as any other notable album. You've basically listed everything related to it. For the characters, it is nearly impossible to provide sources for them, as they aren't in news or the such, they are fictional. ✼ American Eagle (talk) 04:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: "If no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." (WP:V) By admitting that "it is nearly impossible to provide sources for them", you have admitted that these articles should be deleted. Your claim that Adventures in Odyssey is "major" & "worldwide" is just so much unsubstantiated hyperbole. That Eugene Sings! has been released as an album does not establish any notability. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 04:49, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be adding a source or two in a moment. ✼ American Eagle (talk) 05:00, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I added three sources to Adventures in Odyssey, and there are hundreds more with Google News, but that would take me hours, and I must be off to bed now. Good night. ✼ American Eagle (talk) 05:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One of those sources was grossly unreliable (a "PR Newswire") and the other two give the radio show (or its spinoff video games) only slight mention, and little notability -- and confer no notability whatsoever on this host of articles riding on its very slim coattails. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 05:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Articles aren't created overnight, it takes time to source every one. However, they are all verifiable, but it will take time to add sources to them all. ✼ American Eagle (talk) 05:39, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The title-article (Jack Allen (Adventures in Odyssey)) for this AfD has been in existence for over three years (and I would expect that many on the list are of similar age). How much more time should Wikipedia be expected to give? WP:Verifiability requires WP:CITEs to WP:RSes -- which currently don't exist for any of the articles in this AfD. To claim that "they are all verifiable" is therefore fallacious. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 06:39, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Looks up fallacious) I don't know about Allen, he was here before I was. Another thing, lists generally don't have sources (i.e. List of dogs, List of eponymous diseases, etc.), so they do not fall under the same category. ✼ American Eagle (talk) 06:56, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of dogs has 83 citations (you obviously didn't read the dictionary entry you 'looked up' on fallacious sufficiently carefully). While it is possible that the WP:CONSENSUS interprets WP:NOTE somewhat differently for lists than for articles, I see no indication that this would work sufficiently in the two listed lists favour, that they would be considered notable. (Sidebar question to the community: is there a notability policy/guideline specifically for lists?) Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 07:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest splitting this article into two AfDs - one for the albums and one for everything else. The music stuff goes by a different notability criteria, and seem to at least have a weak claim on notability. The other stuff, though, is clearly OR and info about non-notable characters that could go into the main AIO article. Graymornings_(talk) 07:56, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep as per American Eagle. travb (talk) 12:29, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep. This looks vaguely like a case of the pokemon problem, but on a much smaller scale. Not that that's hard. =) --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 15:23, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I'm not sure to what extent the Pokemon 'precedent' applies as (i) there seems to be considerable difference in underlying notability of the base media topic compared to AiO & (ii) the Pokemon characters were apparently merged in the end, not 'kept' as separate articles. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 17:58, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, here goes: Keep List of Adventures in Odyssey characters, and redirect all of the character articles thereto (if editors think that any of the content of the articles is so essential that it needs to be merged to the list article, they're free to use the redirects' histories to do so). Redirect (again with possible merge of essential information) the "saga" articles, Imagination Station, Odyssey (fictional town), Adventures in Odyssey video series, and Whit's End to the corresponding sections of Adventures in Odyssey. Delete List of Adventures in Odyssey voice actors, since the voice actors are already named in List of Adventures in Odyssey characters. My rationale is that information derived solely from a fictional source, with no third-party sources, may be allowable in an article about the fiction and in certain types of list articles but cannot meet WP:N in stand-alone articles. (And, yes, I'm aware that this interpretation of policy is contentious.) The show has its own wiki, and fans should be nudged—as fans of other fictional series have been nudged—to consider what of the mass of possible things that can be said about the program is suitable for a general encyclopedia that requires reliable secondary sourcing, and what belongs elsewhere. Deor (talk) 15:45, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect/merge per Deor. Tgreach (talk) 19:56, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have given this a lot of thought. I'll be happy to merge to useful content (much is trivial) of the character articles into List of Adventures in Odyssey characters at redirect them to it, similar to List of Toy Story characters. I'm also planning on doing work to several other pages relating to AIO, but I can only work so fast. ✼ American Eagle (talk) 20:01, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect/merge per Deor's rationale. Drmies (talk) 22:43, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Proposal

I am will to put my time into this. Here is my proposal:

All character pages are merged (over time, it may take a while) into List of Adventures in Odyssey characters at redirect to it, similar to List of Toy Story characters.
The sagas are merged into Adventures in Odyssey sagas, and redirected.
~~Eugene Sings!/Christmas is merged into Adventures in Odyssey music, or a music section of Adventures in Odyssey.~~[Not part of this AfD, since before "proposal" was made]
List of Adventures in Odyssey voice actors, Whit's End, Odyssey (fictional town), and Adventures in Odyssey video series are kept, expanded and sourced.

I am willing to do all of this, though it may take days to complete. Comments are welcome. ✼ American Eagle (talk) 22:56, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to have to endorse Deor's merge proposal. Redirecting character pages, merging the sagas, and deleting the voice actors seems the most sensible route, and doesn't entail creating any unnecessary new pages. Good plan. Graymornings_(talk) 13:07, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep for video series, merge/delete as appropriate. WAVY 10 Fan (talk) 20:53, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect/merge per Deor. --CalendarWatcher (talk) 00:37, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge into List of Adventures in Odyssey characters or Adventures in Odyssey for now. If that list itself cannot be sourced using secondary reliable sources, it should also be deleted. Abecedare (talk) 04:15, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.