Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joro the Paver

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. Essentially, there haven't been any really substantive arguments that give a clear consensus, and after three relists, it's time to bring discussion to a close. However, the article is in very poor shape, so no prejudice against renomination if it is not improved. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 12:44, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Joro the Paver

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Non-notable BLP article with only 2 (quite unreliable) references. QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 02:00, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Crime, Law, Europe, and Bulgaria. QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 02:00, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep He's a notorious at national level, with few imitators. There are many references in the media (indeed mostly tabloid articles but this is expected) [1] + some book references (among others fiction that is considered modern classics and related literary crticism) [2]. --Nk (talk) 06:48, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Nk: Being famous on a national level is not notability, and I believe that tabloid news should not be taken seriously and aren't reliable sources.

Per WP:SENSATIONAL: "[Tabloid journalism] is usually considered a poor basis for an encyclopedia article." QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 10:54, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(BTW, I'm a Bulgarian myself) QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 10:55, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Sufficient sourcing to meet WP:GNG. And let's remember that crimes committed in Bulgaria in 1968 are unlikely to have substantial online coverage. Not a BLP, incidentally, as the true identity of the perpetrator is uncertain. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:57, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Necrothesp:

[...] crimes committed in Bulgaria in 1968 are unlikely to have substantial online coverage

Then either find offline sources, find better online sources, or delete this article. And I do believe this is a BLP, just because he's anonymous does not mean he's not a legal entity. (Unless you can find any policy that states otherwise) --QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 14:58, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For example, Banksy (an anonymous artist) is considered a living person. I know that Mr. Paver is no longer active, but the crimes were not committed long enough ago for him to be assumed dead. QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 15:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, already meets WP:GNG. We have the BLP rules due to sensitivities about living people. You can't have sensitivities regarding someone who just bears a nickname assigned by someone else. This is not the case with Banksy. We might not know who he is, but he is a specific individual with a specific identity which he adopted himself. An unidentified criminal is a completely different kettle of fish. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:17, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I'd like to hear more policy-based opinions on this article subject.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:17, 20 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I don't think this is a BLP when all the biographical information that exists is a nickname for an anonymous person but I'm also not impressed with the sources presented. I'd relist this discussion but I think that would demonstrate an opinion on this closure so I'll just leave a comment. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:32, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: This would benefit from a source analysis as at the moment we have one editor says the sources are bad and another says they are good. Why?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz ^Humbug! 02:50, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz ^Humbug! 10:16, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep look, the article as written needs a lot of work and I wouldn't accept it at AfC (I have a rule where I don't "go outside the references" at AfC to determine notability) but after a source search it's either crystal clear this article can be improved through reliable sources, or I'm entirely failing at understanding which Bulgarian sources are reliable. SportingFlyer T·C 12:51, 5 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Having looked at the sources, I'm skeptical that the subject of this article warrants inclusion under WP:NEVENT / WP:CRIME (both of which require some sense of being a "well-documented historic event" or "enduring historical significance"/""widespread (national or international) impact and were very widely covered in diverse sources"). Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 16:20, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The sources in the article are horrible. A WP:BEFORE search clears things up, especially in Cyrillic. SportingFlyer T·C 22:33, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've done a search, but the sources I've found have had insufficient quality. Would you mind sharing the high-quality sources that you've seen? Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 21:10, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Stuff like this is par for the course in Balkan news print. Dnevnik had four hits but all of those articles were paywalled. It was also at least mentioned in this article. I'm not an expert in Bulgarian media and have only spent about three minutes on this so apologies if these aren't the best sources - they're representative. SportingFlyer T·C 21:47, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.